223 replies to this topic

[aportinga]

Perhaps it has been covered before...although I could not find such a thread. In any case, I am wondering what everyone's thoughts of the 1994 season - specifically had Ayrton Senna not had the horrible accident at Imola? I realize that we have very little data to work with here - thereby leaving the thread to an enormity of speculation, opinion and more then likely some personal attacks (LOL).

That being said and all things considered, what do you people think? Would MS still have captured the WDC? Or would Senna have pulled the team together...asserted himself in pushing the engineering staff to improve the Williams and thereby capture his 4th title?

[Ali_G]

This is my personal belief. hill threw away the 94 World Championship. He just wasn't a good enough driver. The FIA practically tried to give him the championship. Schuamcher getting banned for three races after passing on the formation lap was ridiculou.s

Anyway, if Senna had not died , he would have been Champion. That willaism was faster than the Benetton, but with Hils driving it didn't look that way.

Hence this is how the years might have looked.

94: Senna, World Champion#
95: Senna
96: Senna
97: Senna,
98: Retirement.

Niall

[Smooth]

**** 10 to 1 magic posts Schumacher's quote on the matter ******

[alain]

In the end of the season williams was little faster.I dont doubt Senna would have taken it,but it would have been a hard fight.
AliG Senna would have retired after that season,definately

[Ali_G]

Alain: I get the feeling that we could have seen Senna staying on in F1 for quite some time. At least until 97.

With Alain after leaving in 93, I always hoped that Prost would have returned in 95 with McLaren or someone else (Definatley not Ferrari ). We could have seen Prost back in F1.

But as most of you will remember Prost swore never to drive again in an F1 race as respect to Senna.
If Prost had come back, Senna would have stayed, for the challenge.

Niall

[Arrow]

If senna had lived then I doubt the FIA would have banned and suspended michael like they did.
If the season had been left to run its natural course I think senna would have won the title,because after the first 2 or 3 races the williams was fast enough to let damon get close to michael,and if senna was in that williams it would of been no contest.

[aportinga]

Ali_G

A bit one sided huh?

It looked to me that Schumacher definately had Senna beat in terms of mind games...in fact no driver has really got to Schumi in such a manner. I'd add that since Senna utilized the mind game factor so often, that he relied upon it as a factor in beating many opponents.

That no longer on the table, I'd say that we'd have to start comparing the Williams and Benetton. Certainly the Williams was not the "all conquoring" car it was supposed to be. I think that the team definately strugled against a surprising Benetton with the Ford Z-TEC engine...to which nobody expected it to be as good as it was.

In any case, I think that the engineering staff at Williams were indeed over their heads at first - thus the shoddy attempt at Imola by giving the Williams a temp front end job. Would they have caught up though??? Yeah...I think so. But not until Schumi had gained some ground.

So the question IMO then becomes would Ford/Benetton have responded progressivley to a Williams/Renault come back Lets say sometime around the British GP?

[aportinga]

Actually Ali...

I read at the end of this season that Alain (Prost) stated that he could have come back as a driver for Ferrari in 1996 but turned the offer down after knowing he'd have to compete with MS for number 1 billing.

In fact Alain even critisized himself for not taking the deal and stated that He could have been Ferrari's 1st WC had he signed.

Sounded as though he was really disapointed in himself over the issue.

[Ali_G]

Aportinga: Don't think of me as one sided. i try not to be. I'm acctually a big Schumacher fan at the moment. And have been since Senna died. A part of me didn't want to see a usless C**t like Hill to win the world championship.(yes, I know, i'm not very one sided )

But anyway. Even with all that Schumacher has done since then, I still don't think that he would have been a match to Senna that year.

Niall

[The_Z_Man]

Originally posted by aportinga
It looked to me that Schumacher definately had Senna beat in terms of mind games...

How so ? Would you like to elaborate ?

in fact no driver has really got to Schumi in such a manner.

Like that driver whose name Schumacher doesn't seem to able to utter these days ?

The_Z_Man

[aportinga]

Ali_G

I was just kidding...sowwy!

[ludlum]

Originally posted by Smooth
**** 10 to 1 magic posts Schumacher's quote on the matter ******

Only 10 to 1 Are u nuts. Make it a Million to 1 . Even that is a understatement.

[aportinga]

z_Man


Senna ALWAYS made sure that any teamate was un-questionably below him at every level...I think we can agree on that. I think that you could not say that Gerhard Berger, Michael Andretti and Mika Hakkinen all got the same attention from the engineers and management (drivers orders) on the circuit as did Senna. That much is indeed obvious.

There is one exception - that of course being Alain Prost. Alain was fairly stable at McLaren when Senna came into the team. Alain was also know as being excellent at playing the game of politics in F1. Not so when it came to Senna. He (Senna) managed to completely alienate Prost from the team and in some ways (indirectly from F1)...note that Prost (and Mansell), both refused to pair with Senna.

Senna managed this with brilliant driving and very effective mind games. I personally think that this point is quite evident.

Schumacher...some say by his ethnic back ground (German), is very quiet and cold...similar to many Finnish drivers we have seen. Mind games are not as effective against Schumacher as they were vs. Senna's other rivals. Below is a quote from Joe Ramirez regarding this issue...

"Once Alain Prost had retired, Senna knew that Schumacher was going to be the next problem, which was why he liked to play mind games with him. I remember that at Magny-Cours in '92 Michael pushed him out of the race on the opening lap; later the race was stopped because of rain, and as the drivers waited for the restart, Ayrton went to speak to him. He waited until just before Michael was going to get in the car, and then he read him the riot act.

"I could see them in the distance, could see Michael nodding his head, saying, 'Yes sir, no sir...' Ayrton came back all satisfied with himself, saying, 'Great! Got him just before he got in the car again!' And, sure enough, Michael went off!

"It's all part of the game - it's all part of what we miss now, that we haven't got any more. Personalities in the sport, I suppose..."


Joe's been around longer then most everyone in the paddock today, and I feel that his comments are right on target.

I also look at the disaster in Brazil (1994). Senna took pole and unlike many rivals who seemed to have little chance...Schumacher was all over him - you could see the gap between the 2 closing on every lap...all this while more experienced drivers and teams like Alesi and Berger in the Ferrari's were clearly falling behind.

They eventually both pitted at the same time and came out in the early running order. On ESPN (coverage here in the States), the camera immediately focused on Senna - assuming he was still in the lead. It was the assumption that Schumacher was just behind Senna until moments later the announcers realized that in fact the Benetton behind Senna was Schumi's teamate. They then realized (in shock) that Schumacher was ahead of Senna.

After the World Feed and announcers got their acts together, we saw something that no one expected...Schumi pulling away on every lap! Later Senna would spin his back end out trying to catch the German - IMO a rookie error that I can't often remember Senna making.

Now I don't know if Schumacher is technically better then Senna. But what I do know that Schumacher put the shock to the Brazilian that race - like very few have done before. NOBODY expected that to happen...not Senna and certainly not Williams.

[No27]

It's very likely that Senna would have won the Championships other Williamsdrivers have won.
It's also lkely that Senna could have won at least one of the two Championships Schumacher have won. It's a real pitty we have never seen happening it, and indeed, the psychological war that would went along with it. I really think MS can be an arrogant bastard if he wants to, but I also think Senna was the coolest of both because he was much more focussed to his "mission".

To call Damon Hill "a useless c**t" is far over the top, after all he conquered Michael Schumacher. Not the least I'd say!

[Todd]

I see two likely scenarios.

scenario 1: Senna wins WDC in 1994. Then he goes to Ferrari in 1995. Retires mid 1996 out of frutration, 4xWDC

scenario 2: Schumacher wins WDC in 1994. Both men stay put. Senna wins in 1995 Williams-Renault against 1995 Benetton-Ford. Senna goes to Ferrari in 1996 and Schumacher to Williams-Renault in the same year. Michael makes well timed move to McLaren for 1998, from which he retires a 7 time champion following 2001.

[aportinga]

No27...

but I also think Senna was the coolest of both

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. Senna lost his temper on many occasions - punching Eddie Irvine in the face and nearly elevating many other confrontations from the verbal to the physical level.

Check out the Atlas Court ruling on Senna in this regard for additional examples.

[aportinga]

Hey Todd...

I like your 2nd scenario...

MS is WDC in 1994 - Benetton/Ford
Senna wins in 1995 - Wiilams/Renault

Here is where it gets tricky...would Frank Williams want to retain Senna for 96/97. Both Mansell and Prost were interested in returning. I think Mansell would not have been taken because of age however...but remember that Ron Dennis had Prost do a shake down of the McLaren and that word was on the table that Alain wanted back in. But where???

With Renault minimizing it's role, I think that it was clear that MS would not stay on board at Benetton. He would not go to McLaren because they did not have enough cash on the table and no incentive to drive a lousy car. Ferrari on the other hand had the cash...and from what I have read they actually offered both Prost and Schumi the ride but Prost turned it down when he realized that he would have to compete with Schumi for the number 1 spot.

So Prost is out. Senna stays with Williams...wins the 96 & 97 titles and then retires on top - effectively nailing the coffin shut in regards towards any questions as to who is better...Schumacher or Senna.

By the way...I don't think (obviously) that had Senna been at Williams during such time that Ferrari's success would have come any sooner. I'd say that what data we have from 1998 on would stand.

[The_Z_Man]

Originally posted by aportinga
I also look at the disaster in Brazil (1994). Senna took pole and unlike many rivals who seemed to have little chance...Schumacher was all over him - you could see the gap between the 2 closing on every lap...all this while more experienced drivers and teams like Alesi and Berger in the Ferrari's were clearly falling behind.

They eventually both pitted at the same time and came out in the early running order. On ESPN (coverage here in the States), the camera immediately focused on Senna - assuming he was still in the lead. It was the assumption that Schumacher was just behind Senna until moments later the announcers realized that in fact the Benetton behind Senna was Schumi's teamate. They then realized (in shock) that Schumacher was ahead of Senna.

After the World Feed and announcers got their acts together, we saw something that no one expected...Schumi pulling away on every lap! Later Senna would spin his back end out trying to catch the German - IMO a rookie error that I can't often remember Senna making.

Weren't you the one posting how AS had a knack to punt himself out of the race in the Greatest GP drivers thread ? Who was messing with his head at that time ?

As I remember it Senna didn't give a flying fxck about finishing 2nd and just tried too hard, and said so at the post race interview.

The_Z_Man

[AD]

However Prost and Schumacher (post Spa '98) in that situation would have settled for 6 points which is a hell of a lot better than 0 points.

[aportinga]

Z_Man...

I posted my response to the mind game issue - for which Jo Ramirez clearly agrees...That was essentially what you asked for correct...an elaboration of my initial point regarding mind games?

What I mentioned after that is purely based upon what happend on ESPN's coverage. Now I don't know where you're from but I assure you that my feelings were the same as Bob Varshas and Derek Daly's - utter surprise and somewhat shock.

Pehaps you have a devine insight which foresaw that Senna was going to be beat and thus not surprised at all.

In addition...my comments have nothing to do with Senna not caring for placing second behind Schumacher...what else would you actually expect Senna to say other then he didn't care...did you expect him to break down and cry?

Come on man...Senna often said that wining was everything "I cannot justify under any circumstances coming in second"...Those are his words.

I guess that means he's a liar - according to your own logic.

You're arguing to simply argue...stay on the course or just leave!

[No27]

Originally posted by aportinga
No27...



I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. Senna lost his temper on many occasions - punching Eddie Irvine in the face and nearly elevating many other confrontations from the verbal to the physical level.

Check out the Atlas Court ruling on Senna in this regard for additional examples.

I like you for respectfully disagreeing with me! I'll check the Court out the other day. But I have some memories about Michael as well. Running to DC in Spa 1998 for example. And has Ayrton ever lost it like Michael did after Monza 2000? I'm not blaming MS for bursting in tears, I probably would myself, I just think Senna could handle presure better than MS.

[aportinga]

No27

And has Ayrton ever lost it like Michael did after Monza 2000? I'm not blaming MS for bursting in tears

I don't see anything wrong with Schumi breaking down...I have that on tape and have watched it a few times. I recall Mika also - nearly losing it telling the mediator to "Go to Ralf" (Schumacher), because he could not speak.

It all hit home after Monza I think. I know I felt it. I guess in a way we knew that Senna's spirit would remain more in tact so long as his records did. That day his record fell and Senna sliped away in every record book - thus confirming what many people refused to face...that he was gone and that was that.

Sorry but I take offense to anyone that laughs at Schumi for breaking down. I heard that the British had a field day with the matter but I think it was a genuine emotion.

PS...I know that you we're not poking fun of him for that...I was just refering to those who do.

[Bruce]

Likely, Senna would have won in 1994 and then again in 1995 in the same team - would he have stayed beyond that? Would he have gone to Ferrari? Who knows? I think that he would have quit then out of respect for Fangio - I think I had heard that somewhere, that he would have liked to have equalled Fangios 5 WDCs but woulodn't want to surpass them...

[SennasCat]

1. Re Schumi crying at Monza. Cringeworthy but understandable. Mika did the same previous year.

Yes Senna did lose it. Remember his ****-laden interview after Suzuka when he absolutely went of his brain and nearly lost his FIA Superlicence over it.

2. I think Senna would have just squeaked in during 1994. It would have been a bit like the latter half of this year with Schumi v Montoya (experienced pro vs hot-headed kid). People are all going to bitch and go stupid, but I honestly believe that Senna was just starting the downward arc of his career in 1994 and also made a rookie mistake through frustration in Brazil when he spun. I also think that if Senna had won, he would have left with his head held justifiably high (and to avoid the new kid spanking his bum). Remember that Senna was nearly ten years older the Schumi.

Senna is still to me arguably the greatest ever F1 driver, but even legends get older and slower (comparatively). I know about Adelaide 93 and Donington 93, but getting jaded means you aren't as consistently quick, but still way capable on a good day (like Mika at Silverstone and Indy this year).

Also agree the the FIA did everything they could to give Hill the WDC but he ended up scoring an own goal in Adelaide after Schumi crashed and carved him up. If he had half a brain, Hill would have waited for a corner or two given the car advantage he already had when both cars were healthy.

I have also put some rabid Senna fans on the ignore list before they turn me off Senna completely!

[Vunz]

I would have loved the sole fact that Senna still lived irregardless of the 1994-2001 WDC results. Senna racing against Schumacher in "equal equipment" hasn't really materialized aprt form 2 races in 1994 (I don't count San Marino).

[The_Z_Man]

Were was I ?

Originally posted by aportinga
Z_Man...

I posted my response to the mind game issue - for which Jo Ramirez clearly agrees...That was essentially what you asked for correct...an elaboration of my initial point regarding mind games?

That AS engaged in ming games with MS wasn't the point of my question. I quoted

It looked to me that Schumacher definately had Senna beat in terms of mind games...

It's the beat part that was in contention here.

What I mentioned after that is purely based upon what happend on ESPN's coverage. Now I don't know where you're from but I assure you that my feelings were the same as Bob Varshas and Derek Daly's - utter surprise and somewhat shock.

Pehaps you have a devine insight which foresaw that Senna was going to be beat and thus not surprised at all.

What do my "devine insight" has to do with the fact that I ask you to elaborate one the "It looked to me that Schumacher definately had Senna beat in terms of mind games..." ?

In addition...my comments have nothing to do with Senna not caring for placing second behind Schumacher...what else would you actually expect Senna to say other then he didn't care...did you expect him to break down and cry?

I expected him to be his win-minded self, and he didn't disappoint.

Come on man...Senna often said that wining was everything "I cannot justify under any circumstances coming in second"...Those are his words.

I guess that means he's a liar - according to your own logic.

How so ? As I said:

As I remember it Senna didn't give a flying fxck about finishing 2nd and just tried too hard, and said so at the post race interview.

Sounds mightily consistent with Senna's personality and your quote above.

You're arguing to simply argue...

Even so, what's the relevance ?

stay on the course or just leave!

Don't be silly.

Allow me to recap so as to clearly see the goalposts.

- You said that Schumacher had Senna beat in mindgames.
- I asked you to elaborate.
- You said that he lost in Brazil with a uncharacteristic rookie mistake to support your point.
- I asked you if you were the one to say that Senna "punted himself" out of races many times ?
- No answer from you.
- If yes, what were the people messing with it's head at that time ?
- No answer from you.
- You agree with me that Senna was the man to settle with second.
- Thus IMO, he wasn't breaking any under any kind of mind games from Schumacher, he was just his normal self, trying too hard to satisfy his dedication to win, and spun klike you said he did many times.

The ball is in your court.

The_Z_Man

[gerry nassar]

Actually there was a good chance that MS could have won the Championship in 94 had he not received some of the race bans he did. I think the FIA would have been more leniant as Senna would have been much closer in the Championship than Hill was. However in 95 id say Senna would have won his 4th and final WDC before retiring. Then JV and Hill would have been at Williams in 96 and Schumi would have either been still with Benneton and took the fight to the dominant Williams (possibly winning his 2nd WDC) thus denying DH of his one and only WDC and thus would still currently be a 4X WDC presuming he went to Ferrari in 97, OR moving to Ferrari anyway in 96 which is doubtful as he would have only had one WDC with Bennetton not 2.

Had Senna Lived, retired at the end of 95, schumi staying at Benetton in 96 before moving to Ferrari in 97 - we might possibly have seen:

Year WDC
1994 Michael Schumacher
1995 Aryton Senna (4th WDC)
1996 Michael Schumacher
1997 Jaques Villenueve
1998 Mika Hakkinen
1999 Mika Hakkinen
2000 Michael Schumacher or Mika Hakkinen (remember the Ferrari has had one less year of MS development)
2001 Michael Schumacher

In the end its all speculation.

[servellen]

I don't know who would have taken it.

I think most people are saying the williams was faster than the Benneton because of Renault -buti have to question that. The Benneton semed really quick both in testing and on track times -Senna managed to get pole but in the races was having difficulty in keeping Shummy behind. I don't think this is an indication that it was purely MS's skill that made it so, but also an inbalance in the williams car. On the day Senna crashed it looked like he was really pushing it too hard to stay ahead -even MS said the back of his car was all over the place in tamborelo the laps before.

In raw speed i think Senna is the quickest driver there's ever been. His all win mentality is perhaps best understood by Latino's because it's very inherent in the culture -it's not a philiosphy but a feeling that nobody can beat you -you don't think so- You know so and it gives you great strength and trust but can also generate an amount of agression. People can say Senna was a hot head but he was as he was and it's what made him so good and perhaps also what contributed to his early death.

MS is slightly slower over a lap i believe akthough there's no way to measure. I think MH is also very fast over one lap but MS is juts soooo consistant and smooth over a race distance that together with Braun, Byrne and years of experience and confidence he's really become quite a remarkable driver anyone would have to admit -I used to HATE him so very much and now i have a lot of respect for his ability.

I think Montoya is a Senna mentality in the making. i think he mirrors himself with Senna and is already playing the mind games with Michael. I think Micael is mature neogh to deal with it and we're going to have a very interesting season if their cars are near equal speed.

[magic]

before looking back at the 1994 season, join me at reviewing the last two races of 1993, senna's 157th and 158th race.
lateron i'll explain why:

-------------

157th.

Alain Prost was fastest as was normal but Damon Hill spun in qualifying and so had to be satisfied with a lowly sixth on the grid. This allowed Ayrton Senna to take second on the grid in his McLaren-Ford with his new team mate Mika Hakkinen third ahead of Michael Schumacher's Benetton, Gerhard Berger's Ferrari, Hill, Derek warwick (Footwork) and Irvine, a Suzuka expert.

In the race Senna made the best start and led Prost and Hakkinen with Berger fourth and a fast-starting Irvine fifth, although he was soon pushed back to seventh by a slow-starting Schumacher and by Hill. Alesi blew an engine early on and Schumacher followed him into retirement after making contact with Hill and both men tried to challenge Berger. The first pit stops had already begun when it started to rain but it was not wet enough for a tire change and in the conditions Senna was quickly able to close up on Prost..... When Prost, Senna and Hakkinen pitted for wets, Prost's stop was slow and so Senna went ahead. The rain then eased and the track began to dry and in the difficult conditions both Prost and Hill went off but were able to rejoin. ...Senna and Prost battled for the lead and the gap closed dramatically when they came up to pass the battle for fifth place between Hill and Irvine. Irvine greatly annoyed Senna with his behavior and after the race the two came to blows. The leaders eventually got clear of the Ulsterman and soon afterwards pitted for slicks. The order at the front was set with Senna leading home Prost and Hakkinen to score his 40th and McLaren's 103rd victory, equalling Ferrari's record of Grand Prix victories.

-------------

158th.

McLaren was looking to end the season with another victory to draw clear of Ferrari in the competition for the most Grand Prix wins of all time and Ayrton Senna wanted to end his relationship with the team on a high note. He did so in qualifying with a masterful pole position, beating the two Williams-Renaults of Alain Prost and Damon Hill. Michael Schumacher was fourth fastest in his benetton ahead of Mika Hakkinen's McLaren and Gerhard Berger's Ferrari, the Austrian having survived a big accident in practice on Friday. The top 10 was completed by Alesi's Ferrari, Martin Brundle's Ligier (still in its artistic Suzuka colour scheme), Riccardo Patrese's Benetton and Aguri Suzuki's Footwork.

It took three attempts to start the race with Ukyo Katayama (Tyrrell) and then Eddie Irvine (Jordan) stalling. Both were sent to the back of the grid. The third attempt was successful with Senna leading Prost into the first corner. Hill was third with Schumacher behind him while Hakkinen made a bad start and was stuck behind Berger.
Schumacher adopted a curious strategy with a stop on lap 15 which enabled him to run very fast early on but his efforts were pointless as he retired with ane ngine failure on lap 20. Senna pitted on lap 24 and Prost was briefly in the lead but he stopped on lap 29 and Senna went ahead again with Alain second, Hill third ahead of Alesi, Berger and Brundle.
The two Williams-renaults had to stop again and that gave Senna a big lead so that when he stopped for the second time on lap 55 he was able to rejoin with a healthy lead of 20 seconds. Hill later tried to pass prost for second place and spun but he rejoined to finish third.
It was the perfect result. Senna and Prost - the giants of the era - had fought their last battle. Senna had scored a brilliant win (his last as it would turn out) and on the podium the two old enemies shook hands and made their peace.

--------------

comment:

the last 2 races of 1993 saw senna leading and or closing on the leader, never lower than in 2nd spot, winning twice.
senna was driving an oatley-mac-ford, prost and hill the newey-williams-renault and ms the byrne-benneton-ford.
the williams ( 15x pole, 10 x vic ) was the vastly superior car.
mac and benetton shared the same kind of engine and over the season proved to be on par.
in the last 2 races senna was battling for the win, primairly with prost.
ms never higher than 5 th and 4th.

the next 2 races we have a totally diff situation.

in brazil the williams car was very bad, completely unstable.
in 1993 the car of williams was very superior.
the electronic suspension and the traction control, banished in 1994, were much more developed in sir frank's cars.
there was a race between Williams and one for the other ones.
in 1994 williams had to play that whole knowledge out, and manufacturing a conventional car, which they didn't do at a long time.
it took some months and new safety-regulations to stabelize the car.
to exemplify, in the beginning of the year dh finished the races a turn behind ms, in the end of the year he pressured ms into a mistake.
not unlike ms pressured senna into a mistake in brazil.

1994 williams was worse than benetton, even ms himself admitted that.
newey had said that the 1994 williams was the worst car he ever designed.
senna outqualified hill in 1994, with an average of 0.9s sec.
senna and ms were lapping the entire field in brasil.
one second quicker a lap than dh.
Schumacher got past Senna in the pits in Brazil due to benetton removing the filter from the fuel nozzle thus making their pit stop faster.
That is fact as the pit lane fire in the benetton garage later in the season was a direct cause of this cheating.


-------------

159th

In qualifying there was no great surprise that Ayrton Senna was on pole position but Michael Schumacher's second place was a surprise. Already there were allegations that the team had found a way around the new F1 electronic regulations. Jean Alesi was third fastest in his Ferrari with Damon Hill a disappointing fourth in his Williams. Heinz-Harald Frentzen impressed with fifth place for Sauber while Morbidelli was a surprising sixth ahead of Wendlinger, Hakkinen, Verstappen and Katayama.

At the start Alesi got away quickly, beating Schumacher into second place. This lasted only a lap and a half before the German moved up to second and chased after Senna. Alesi dropped back quickly while Hill was struggling with handling problems in fourth, Wendlinger fifth and Verstappen sixth. On lap 21 Senna and Schumacher pitted together. The Benetton stop was amazingly quick and Michael emerged ahead. Schumacher then began to pull away.
The order remained the same at the front after the second pit stop until lap 56 when Senna spun, pushing his car beyond the limit as he tried to catch Schumacher. This left Hill second, Alesi third, Barrichello fourth, Katayama fifth and Wendlinger sixth.

---------------

160th

Qualifying resulted in Ayrton Senna showing all his skill to take the Williams-Renault to pole position ahead of the Benetton of Michael Schumacher. Damon Hill was third in his Williams while McLaren showed a lot better than the team had in Brazil with Mika Hakkinen fourth and Martin Brundle sixth, the pair being split by Gerhard Berger's Ferrari.

At the start both Schumacher and Senna got away well but Michael was slightly quicker. Senna's car twitched as they braked but the Brazilian decided it was best not to slam the door. Schumacher was worried that Senna would powered ahead at the exit of the corner and so he lifted slightly. He said that this was to ensure that the Ford engine was in the right rev range at the exit. Senna was not expecting it and lifted off while Hakkinen was not ready for a sudden hesitation by Senna and crashed into the back of the Williams, tipping the car into a spin. Senna's car took off Larini while there were various bumps further back in the field as everyone tried to get through. With Senna standing beside the track watching (and listening for traction-control) Schumacher drove away form the rest of the field at a remarkable pace while Hakkinen ran second. Damon Hill tried to pass him on lap four and Hill spun off as a result. He rejoined ninth and charged back to fourth by the time the pit stops. ... This left Schumacher with a lead of half a minute over Berger with Barrichello chasing him. Hill had pitted and had dropped back again but was still charging hard. He would eventually climb up the order to second place but then went out with a gearbox failure. When the various strategies had been played out Schumacher was the winner with Berger second.

-------------

comment:

the way ms could outdrag senna starting from the wrong, dusty side of the track, without wheelspin was suspicious.

quote from m.lawrence:

"...In 1994 Benetton had traction control on its computer program, yet traction control had been outlawed.
There is no question about this, it was discovered by the FIA and admitted by the team. Benetton
claimed it was only used in testing. Of course, Flavio, of course, teams regularly waste time, and bins full of cash, testing outlawed systems they
do not use in races.

When Ayrton Senna retired from the 1994 Pacific Grand Prix at Aida, he stood with his car for about 15 minutes and went back to his pits and reported
that Benetton was running different cars.
Senna knew that Schumacher was using traction control. ... It was a British team that was cheating and Michael went along with it.
To activate the traction control, or 'launch control' as Benetton claimed it was, the driver had to go through a specific and complicated procedure on the parade lap, the driver activated the system so there is no way that Schumacher was an innocent..."

in short:

1. "The FIA cast a further shadow over Schumacher's aspirations when it announced that Benetton was found to have a computer system capable of breaching the regulations"
2. "...Charlie Whiting indicated his belief that the Benetton team had the facility to run an illegal launch (automatic start) control..."
3. " Senna, for one, was extremely suspicious about the Benetton's performance out of slow and medium speed corners. On several occasions, in private, he voiced the view that there was something about the Benetton which worried him....he suspected that the B194 might have some sort of illegal traction control system."
4. "Whiting's Imola report which confirmed the presence of 'launch control' - an automatic start system - in Schumacher's Imola black box."
5. "Launch control could in fact be switched on using a lap-top...Benetton indicated that the availability of this feature came as a surprise to them...The menu was so arranged that after ten items, nothing further appeared. If, however, the operator scrolled beyond the tenth listed option, to option 13, launch control can be enabled, even though this is not visible on the screen. No satisfactory explanation was offered for this attempt to conceal the feature."
6. "...it was pointed out that the driver had to work through a particular sequence of gearshift paddle positions, in order to activate the system."

----------------

161th

Ayrton Senna, driving his Williams to the limit, set the fastest time of the day. ... Senna was on pole with Michael Schumacher (Benetton) second and Gerhard Berger (Ferrari) third. Damon Hill was fourth fastest in the second Williams....

At the start of the race Lehto stalled. .... And then the race was restarted with Senna leading with Schumacher right on his tail. At the start of the sixth lap Senna's car went straight off at Tamburello Corner. The Brazilian tried to turn the car in the final moments before hitting the wall but there was no escape. The car hit the wall. In the impact the front suspension of the Williams came back and hit Senna on the head. The car bounced back towards the track, throwing wreckage into the air, and slid to a halt beside the circuit. The doctors fought to save Senna's life and he was rushed by helicopter to Bologna. But from early on it was clear that there was no hope. Senna died that evening.

---------------


epilogue:

in between 157th and the 158th race and the 159th race and 160th race we see senna in the similar position.
in front or just behind the leader, gaining.

the only difference is ms's position.
starting the 1994 season he's in the lead or second position.
whilst he the last 2 races of '93 did not figure up front , instead dropping or crashing out far behind the leaders.

did senna turn into a spinning crashing tosser over the winter or was it something else, let's say the car?

did ms change from a crashing tosser into a winner over the '93 winter?
or was the major jump in performance much ado about the car, with or without the illegaleties?

senna's '94 season was too short, 62 laps, to give a real insight how things would have developed the other 13 races.

i think the pressure was on senna.
senna had everything to lose, ms to win.
ms was already amidst team schumacher for 38 races starting 1994, senna was in a new environnement after 6 seasons with mac, the archrivals of williams.
beating senna was a benetton-team-effort.
the refuelling trick did it's job very well in brazil.

watch the fia 1994 review tape, aida startinggrid, and see what psychological warfare by flav', tom and brawn was doing to senna.

senna was vulnerable, his own man in a hard, expecting environnement having to handle a cumbersome car, a strong teammate and a energetic, fast rival driving a better car.
yes, the renault had more bhp, the benetton package was better.

let's not forget that senna had fought an uphill battle for 10 years prior to 1994.
first struggling for acknowledgedment in the toleman, being robbed in monaco and thrown out of the car after signing for lotus.
then demoting teamleader elio at lotus in a few races.
then keeping a brit topdriver out of an english team, for the better of the team, but being slaughtered by the brit press.
then struggling with an faulthy active lotus.
then taking up the challenge to beat the best in his team.
then being robbed by fia of wdc.
then fighting great drivers in great cars for 4 seasons in a row, winning 2 out of 4 wdc's.
then fighting to get the chance to beat the former best again.
then when in the team discovering the best years were behind.
and then having to start all over again, only to find the next, fresh great in a great car waiting....

he'd would have risen to the challenge, and 1994, after maybe even a 30-0 start would have been a close one.

the final word goes to ms, as requested by his fans:

"Für mich war eigentlich immer klar, daß Ayrton derjenige ist, der diese Weltmeisterschaft hier gewinnen wird. Er war der beste Fahrer, er hatte auch das beste Paket und für mich gab ess keinen anderen Favoriten. Auch nach den ersten beiden Rennen, wo er die Siege nicht geschafft hat und ich beide Male gewonnen habe, war mir trotzdem klar, daß es höchstens noch spannender wird, er aber gleichwohl die Meisterschaft gewinnt. Deswegen möchte ich die Situation nutzen, um die Weltmeisterschaft, meine erste Weltmeisterschaft, Ayrton Senna zu widmen."

[gerry nassar]

magic - that was an interesting and good read!

BTW - whats the english translation to what MS said?

[Nikolas Garth]

If MS wasn't given those bans and the FIA didn't bring in the safety changes that nulified the handling differences between the Benetton and the Williams, and Imola was only a dnf for Senna, then MS WDC.

If MS still got the bans and the FIA car changes still took place, and Imola was only a dnf, then Senna WDC.

[The Voice of Reason]

OK, Senna survived his Imola crash. The suspension component missed his head and he had no other injuries (except possibly some bruising). He's now in a position to fight back in the championship but starting from a poor 30 points down.

The Williams is quickly over it's early season instability troubles, caused by the team's lack of recent experience of designing a car with conventional suspension instead of the now-banned active suspension.

After Imola comes Monaco and Michael wins again, he's on top form and the track perfectly suits the Benetton-Ford. It has less power than the Williams-Renault but more traction and greater flexibility. Senna's now 34 points down.

Over the course of rest of the season I think Senna, at the wheel of a much better car, would have fought back and I believe the title would have been up for grabs in Adelaide. Given how Schumacher reacted there against Hill I think Senna would have won it.

The key question to me is would Schumacher have received a ban after Silverstone. I think he would have been, but maybe just for one race. Don't forget that he wasn't banned for overtaking Hill on the formation lap. He only got a 10 sec stop-go for that offence. But for ignoring that penalty and continuing to race he was shown the black flag. He ignored the black flag too (or was instructed to by his team) and that's why the FIA threw the book at him. The black flag is gospel in motor racing. If you see it, you're out of the race. Period.

So Schumacher stays at Benetton in '95 and, probably, 96 too. Still chasing his first championship. But given the strength of the Williams-Renault package in those years, I think Senna would have won his 6th championship in '96 and then surely would have retired. It's hard to imagine him walking away sooner than that when he still had his hands on a dominant car. It's equally hard to image him still being sufficiently motivated to fight on after 3 straight championships. Not to mention all the records that would have been his by that stage. Can you imaging the number of pole positions?

Wow, we're all wandering quite a way from the initial question of 1994. But its just so damn tempting to let your train of thought carry you along.

With Villeneuve on board for 1996 - learning from Senna - and Schumacher going to Ferrari a year later - still recognised as Senna's only real opposition and a great driver much needed by Luca and Jean Todt to spearhead the Ferrari revival - Villeneuve would win the title in '97.

Mika in '98 and '99 as we know.

So by 2002 Schumacher is a double world champion and the world is rejoicing that his talent has finally received the award it has deserved for so long. Only Mansell had to wait longer. Schumacher is on top the world at last. And now, here comes Montoya.

An interesting (and quite possible IMO) change to the above scenario is that Frank would ditch Senna for '96 after he'd won 2 championships for himself and the team and hire the much cheaper Schumacher. I'm sure sacking the greatest driver in history would give him quite a thrill and Michael by this time would have been gagging for a championship winning car and might have gone for it - even though it meant taking on a talented team-mate on equal terms.

A long post, I know, but whaddya think. Possible?

[The Voice of Reason]

Wow, while I was away typing that up, Magic wrote a novel.

Good stuff though.

Just have to make a couple of changes though. Newey might have said the '94 Williams was one of the worst he designed. Pat Head had a slightly different take on it. Head said it was a very difficult car to drive at the start of the year but it developed into a pretty good car and from about 2/3 way through the season they weren't giving anything up to Benetton in performance.

I should also point out (before all the Schumacher fans pile in) that Magic is absolutely right in his observations about the Benetton teams ability to use hidden launch control software (even though the FIA couldn't prove they had used it - I can't prove a 300 foot fall will kill me, but it bloody well will...) and fuel filter removal. I've argued long and hard about this subject and have studied the year harder and longer than is probably healthy. Magic's passion for Senna shows in his writing but his facts are bang-on.

[rdrcr]

Hulluva read Magic - Thanks Nice additions TVOR

Here's a rough translation of Schumacher's quote...


" for me it was actually always clear that Ayrton is that, who will win this world championship here. He was not the best driver, he had also the best package and for me gave less other favorites. Also after first two runnings, where he did not create the victories and I won both marks, me nevertheless clearly that it becomes at the most still more exciting, it was however nevertheless the championship wins. Therefore I would like to use the situation to dedicate around the world championship, my first world championship, Ayrton Senna. "

It doesn't make much sense but that's the best Babel translation can do. Perhaps a German speaking person will be able to be more acurate.

[Billy]

It's funny how the Babelfish translator does this sentence:

Er war der beste Fahrer, er hatte auch das beste Paket und für mich gab ess keinen anderen Favoriten.

He was not the best driver, he had also the best package and for me gave ess other favorites.

It moves the "keinen" = "not" into the first clause, making Senna "not the best driver", and saying "there were other favorites" rather than "there were no other favorites"

but if you translate

Er war der beste Fahrer, er hatte auch das beste Paket

He was the best driver, he had also the best package

[Billy]

quote from m.lawrence:

"...In 1994 Benetton had traction control on its computer program, yet traction control had been outlawed."

was it launch control or traction control?

[US_F1_FAN]

Oh please.

That is THE most Senna-worshipping/anti-Schumacher post I have ever read. All you bleaters who claim that Schumacher was quick in 1994 because the car was illegal have yet to explain his pace in 96, 97, 98, 99, 00 and 01.

Yeah, Senna had it SO tough at Mclaren, and Hill was the 'new mega-star' that he had to fight against. Man he had it rough! Puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh-leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzz!!!!! Geezuz what a crock. How about we take away a WDC for running Prost off the road for crying out loud.

magic = Frans MSH

[Bruce]

Great post Magic.

For more information regarding Benetton's software, read "The death of Ayrton Senna" by Richard Williams.

[gerry nassar]

Voice of Reason - I sort of agree with you - check out my post.

[Billy]

Bruce, what are the major allegations about the Benetton software in the book you mentioned?

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by US_F1_FAN


Oh please.

That is THE most Senna-worshipping/anti-Schumacher post I have ever read. All you bleaters who claim that Schumacher was quick in 1994 because the car was illegal have yet to explain his pace in 96, 97, 98, 99, 00 and 01.

The best part is that once electronic gizmo's were made legal earlier this year, MS dominated like never before. Perhaps it is his rivals who have some explaining to do.

[Billy]

Originally posted by magic
the way ms could outdrag senna starting from the wrong, dusty side of the track, without wheelspin was suspicious.

Pat Symonds, the Benetton engineer said the team did a lot of practice:

It's hard to pursuade the drivers to go to the windy airstrip at Northampton which Benetton use for pitstop and start practice, but Michael would love it because he knew it was a way of winning races. He would do it over and over again.

Ross Brawn remembered the same thing:

Benetton were the first team who consciously set out to improve the drivers' starting technique and that brought its rewards. The drivers became more consistent and got a lot better at starting. When Michael left, Jean Alesi and Gerhard Berger came into the Benetton team and they said, "Oh no, we don't need to do start practice; it's not necessary, we're really good starters." And for the first few races we let it go, to see what happened. They didn't make consistently good starts. So then they had to do the practice, and all of a sudden they were doing proper starts all the time. Any driver can do one stunning start a year, but why not practice it so you can do sixteen stunning starts.

[Bruce]

Here's what is said in the death of Ayrton Senna - excuse my typing - I'm going to do this quickly - bedtime after all....

Page 178...

At the French Grand Prix in late June, Schumacher beat Hill with a strart so flawless that it hardened the suspicions lurking in many minds. This was the kind of get away that had been seen many times in the previous two seasons when the teams had enjoyed the benefit of the now proscribed traction control systems and fully automatic gearboxes.

Announcing it's ban on most kinds of computer controlled devices, the FIA had been loud in it's insistence that the new regulations would be regularly and strictly policed. In July, shortly after the British Grand prix, the FIA"s technical commision produced the findings from a software analysis company, LDRA of Liverpool which it had hired to conduct it's spot checks into computer progremas being used by Ferrari, Benetton and McLaren.

To enable these checks to be made, the teams had to first agree to surrender the source codes: the means of access to their computer programs. Ferrari, spooked by the unpunished discovery of their use of a variation of traction control at Aida, readily complied; their cars were found to be clean. McLaren and Benetton however refused to produce the source codes, claiming that to do so would first compromise the commercial confidentiality and second infringe the intellectual copyright of their software suppliers. When it was pointed out to them that LDRA is often enlisted by the British government to look into military soiftware whose confidentiality is covered by the Official Secrets Act and carries weightier consequences than a silver cup and a few bottles of chjampagne and the further inflation of over inflated egos, they gave in.

Both teams were fined $100 000.00 for attempting to obstruct the course of justice. And when the findings emerged, both appeared to have something to hide. In McLarens case, it was a gearbox program permitting automatic shifts. After much deliberating, and to the surprise of many, the FIA eventually decided that it was not illegal. But Benetton had something far more exciting up their sleves...

When LDRA's people finally got into the B194s computer software, they discoverd a hidden program, and it was dynamite: something which allowed Schumacher to make perfect starts merely by flooring the throttle and holding it there, the computer taking over to determine the correct matching of gear-changes to engine speed, ensuring that the car reached the first corner in the least possible time, with no wheel spin or side slip, all it's energy concentrated forward. Before the winter, this combination of traction control and gearbox automation would have been legal. Now, although it was strictly outlawed by the regulations, it was still there. If you knew how to find it. Because it was invisible.

It took LDRA's people a while. What you had to do was call up the softwares menu of programs, scroll down to the bottom line, put the cursor on an apparently blank line, press a particular key (no clues to that, either) and - hey presto - without anything showing on the screen, the specila program was there.

They called it "launch control" and LDRA's computer detectives also discovered the means by which the driver could activate it on the way to the starting grid. It involved a sequence of commands using the throttlle and clutch pedals and the gear shift paddles under the steering wheel. Benetton couldn't deny it's existence, but they did claim that it had not been usde since it had been banned. So why was it still there and had it's existence been so carefully disguised?

It had remained in the software, they said, because to remove it would have been too difficult. The danger was that in the purging of the program, others might become corrupted. Best leave it be. But, so that the driver couldn't accidentally engage it, and thereby unintentionally brealk the new rules, "launch control" had been hidden carefully away behind a sereis of masking procedures.

"That's enough to make me think they were cheating", and experienced software programmer with another F1 team told me. "Look, we purged our own software of all illegal systems during the winter. I did it myself. OK, our car isn't quite as sophisticated as the Benetton, but it only took me 2 days. Perfectly strightforward. And the fact that they disguised it is suspicious"



It goes on to speculate that Benetton could even have had further systems which self purged when the car was turned off at the end of the race, but that is pure (if learned) speculation -

Night...

[Bruce]

Originally posted by Nikolas Garth

The best part is that once electronic gizmo's were made legal earlier this year, MS dominated like never before. Perhaps it is his rivals who have some explaining to do.

NIk - if Schumacher and his teams HAD been using illegal electronic gizmos - IF - I say - does it not follow that they would continue to dominate when they were legalised? After all their illegal usage - both from a team and driver standpoint would confer on them an advantage in terms of design, usage and durability.... It would be normal if this were the case for the other teams who had recently installed the newly legal systems to have problems with them that Ferrari and MS would not if they had been using them in the previous years...

[Billy]

Bruce, thanks for typing all that.

[Bruce]

No worries - it's not a bad book - worth the read, and certainly not an hagiography...

Cheers - g'night.

[US_F1_FAN]

Originally posted by Bruce
NIk - if Schumacher and his teams HAD been using illegal electronic gizmos - IF - I say - does it not follow that they would continue to dominate when they were legalised? After all their illegal usage - both from a team and driver standpoint would confer on them an advantage in terms of design, usage and durability.... It would be normal if this were the case for the other teams who had recently installed the newly legal systems to have problems with them that Ferrari and MS would not if they had been using them in the previous years...

Isn't it amazing how this works?

First off, it's the car and it is definately illegal, Frans MSH(who is really HHFrentzen BTW, still pissed that Schumi married his ex-girlfriend) produces pictures of glowing brake discs and proclams that in Spain 01 the 'truth will come out'.

So that does not happen, in fact the Ferrari appears to be even QUICKER when TC and LC is legalized, so of course now we get the above arguement.

It's really quite sad.

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by Bruce


NIk - if Schumacher and his teams HAD been using illegal electronic gizmos - IF - I say - does it not follow that they would continue to dominate when they were legalised? After all their illegal usage - both from a team and driver standpoint would confer on them an advantage in terms of design, usage and durability.... It would be normal if this were the case for the other teams who had recently installed the newly legal systems to have problems with them that Ferrari and MS would not if they had been using them in the previous years...

Bruce,
It is not hard to see why you are an "artist" with that kind of "creative thinking".

How on the pace were the Macs in the first 3 races after the introduction of the electronics free for all this year??

Did we not have Montoya saying at Monaco that McLaren's TC was working the best, then Ferrari's, then Williams'.

Seems like when Ferrari and Williams got their TC act together, McLaren faded badly.

I can only imagine what your reaction would have been had Ferrari's competitiveness dropped off to the same extent as McLaren did. I some how doubt very much you would be suggesting anything other than, it was "proof", that MS had used illegal electronic aids for most of his career.

[umapathypon]

Originally posted by US_F1_FAN


Isn't it amazing how this works?

First off, it's the car and it is definately illegal, Frans MSH(who is really HHFrentzen BTW, still pissed that Schumi married his ex-girlfriend) produces pictures of glowing brake discs and proclams that in Spain 01 the 'truth will come out'.

So that does not happen, in fact the Ferrari appears to be even QUICKER when TC and LC is legalized, so of course now we get the above arguement.

It's really quite sad.

cant agree more...

[magic]

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by magic
the way ms could outdrag senna starting from the wrong, dusty side of the track, without wheelspin was suspicious.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

billly:
Pat Symonds, the Benetton engineer said the team did a lot of practice:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's hard to pursuade the drivers to go to the windy airstrip at Northampton which Benetton use for pitstop and start practice, but Michael would love it because he knew it was a way of winning races. He would do it over and over again.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

billy:
Ross Brawn remembered the same thing:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Benetton were the first team who consciously set out to improve the drivers' starting technique .....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


let me explain why benetton were set out to improve ther starting techniques.
here are the starting results of 1993.


Round 1, 1993: SA
Grid: AP, AS, MS, DH
At the start, Senna make a pefect getaway to lead, prost falters and hill takes 2nd.

Round 2, 1993: Brazil
Grid: AP, DH, AS, MS
At the start, Senna scytching trough to prise second spot, ms losing his 4th position to alesi.

Round 3, 1993: Doninington
Grid: AP, DH, MS, AS
At the start, in spite of ms edging him, as senna tried to overtake, on a curb, at the end of the lap the order is AS, AP, DH, RB, JA , MS.

Round 4, 1993: San Marino
Grid: AP, DH, MS, AS
At the start, Senna catapulated through through into an immidiate second place from fourth of the grid: DH, AS, AP, MS.

Round 5, 1993: Spain
Grid: AP, DH, AS, MS
After the start, AP, DH, AS, MS

Round 6, 1993: Monaco
Grid: AP, MS, AS.
After the start, AP, MS, AS.

Round 7, 1993: Canada
Grid: AP, DH, MS, RP, GB, JA, MB, AS
At the start, Hill moves up a place, senna rockets from 8th to 4th.ms made a disastrous start and lost all the advantage afforded by his seconrow starting position. DH, AP, GB, AS, JA, RP, MS.

Round 8, 1993: France
Grid: AP, DH, MB, MB, AS, MS
At the start, all make good starts, making the order: AP, DH, MB, MB, AS, MS

Round 9, 1993: Britain
Grid: AP, DH, MS, AS
At the start, Hill & Senna make good starts, making the order: DH, AS, AP, MS.

Round 10, 1993: Germany
Grid: AP, DH, MS, AS
Damon made a good start to the race as Prost bogged down, and down the first long straight Hill led from MS, AP and AS.

Round 11, 1993: Hungary
Grid: AP, DH, MS, AS
Prost stalled at the start of the warmup lap, so he started from the back of the field. Hill made a great start to the race, and Senna got past Schumacher into the first corner.

Round 12, 1993: Belgium
Grid: AP, DH, MS, JA, AS
At the start, MS had a failure of his auto-start system, and fell to 9th place. Senna got past Alesi & Hill, to run in 2nd place by the end of the first lap, behind Prost,

Round 13, 1993: Italy
Grid: AP, DH, JA, AS, MS
At the start Alesi got passed Hill, and Senna tried to do the same thing, but AS & DH collided and spun.

Round 14, 1993: Portugal
Grid: DH, AP, MH, AS, JA, MS
The Williams team couldn't fire up Damon's car on the grid, putting him to the back of the field. With Hill gone, Hakkinen had a clear run on Prost, and MH edged Prost out towards the grass as they went into the first corner. This battle caused a traffic jam, and Alesi zoomed around the outside to take the lead of the race, ahead of Senna, Hakkinen, Prost & Schumacher.

Round 15, 1993: Japan
Grid: AP, AS, MH, MS, GB, DH
Senna made the best start, leading from Prost, Hakkinen, and then Eddie Irvine who had used his local track knowledge to overtake cars on the outside line around turn 1. Schumacher made a bad start to the race, dropping to 6th

Round 16, 1993: Australia
Grid: AS, AP, DH, MS, MH, GB
At the end of the opening lap, Senna was 1.3s ahead of Prost, Hill, followed by Schumacher.



in total senna gains 24 places at the start over the season.
ms loses 13 places at the start.



no wonder ms had to practice a lot.
he was losing massive places at starts.

at ferrari too he was known to practice starts from dusk till dawn, and at every grand prix given the oppertunity he would practice starts too. even when exiting the pitlane.
prior to monaco 2000 he flew back to fiorano to practice starts countless times.

it proved to be the achilles heel his entire career till tc as reintroduced.