31 replies to this topic

[BRG]

Over in the RCF, there is a thread about which other manufacturers might enter (or return to) F1. It included a reference to Matra to which Pascal replied:-

"Matra still makes niche vehicles, don't they?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, they do, but their latest project is a low-cost vehicle aimed at youngsters.
Formula 1 doesn't fit well with the "low-cost" part of this concept! "

That got me thinking about Matra's F1 and racing efforts and the realisation that I know very little about it.

I know that Matra ran their F1 own DFV powered car in 1968/9, under Ken Tyrell's management. But who designed and built that car? Was it really a Matra or was it a badge engineered forerunner to the real Tyrells?

I know a bit more about the wonderful Matra V12, the best sounding race engine of all time IMO, which Matra used in their F1 cars from 1970 on. Were those cars designed and built in house by Matra? Then of course there was the Matra V12 sports car which won at Le Mans. I imagine that was definitely Matra's own product (effective but ugly).

Then the V12 later came back into F1 in the Ligier under its Talbot guise. Was this essentially the same engine (with clearly some development as it was still quite competitive)?

Finally, I believe that Matra was at Velizy, which later was later the Peugeot competition base and is now Asiatech. Is this in fact the same factory? Was the Peugeot Le Mans and F1 effort a successor to Matra, or were they completely separate.

Any information or stories on any or all of the above would be most interesting!

[Keir]

BRG,
After 1970, MATRA was indeed "all French", doing all the engine and chassis stuff in house, where they created the "sound" that lives on in all our memories!!

[VDP]

Matra did build and conceive the whole car already in 1968 Matra MS 11 powered by own engine
end entered 2 cars JP Beltoise starting at Monaco and H Pescarolo for The US campaign
best placing 2nd at zandvoort behind J Stewart Matra Ms 10 powered by Ford.
If I have good memories the all saga was designed by Bernard Boyer starting from Ms 620 to
Ms 670 sports cars and Ms 5 to Ms 120 formula cars.

B Boyer was also builder of a FJ SIRMAC


Robert

[Roger Clark]

THe Tyrell entered Matras were designed by Matra, as were the Formula 2 and 3 cars that preceded them. Derak Gardner, the Tyrell Technical Director in the Stweart era was a Ferguson engineer seconded to Matra for the MMS84 4WD programme in 1969. It was there that he caught the eye of Tyrell and Stewart.

[fines]

Matra was bought by Simca in 1969/70, when it became Matra-Simca. Before, the MS refered to Matra Sport. The Tyrrell Racing Organisation bought the chassis from Matra, and received some sponsorship, resulting in the team being called Matra International. But of course, it was nothing else but TRO.

In the seventies, Chrysler bought Simca, and in 1980 sold it off to PSA (Peugeot, Citroën etc.). They revived the old Talbot name and sponsored Ligier's GP team for a couple of years. The engine was the developed V12 from 1968.

And yes, the Velizy base was probably the same for Matra and Peugeot.

[Roger Clark]

The Tyrrell Racing Organisation bought the chassis from Matra

I believe they were on loan.

[dmj]

I believe story was a little bit different, and Fines gave a wrong information, probably first one since I read TNF threads (Sorry, Fines). Matra was never bought by Simca and they are today related with Renault, not Peugeot. Matra was a weapons making corporation that tried to get into automotive business in Sixties, and then they decided to conquer F1 and Le Mans in 10-years period - and that is just what they managed to do! Most of it was due to enthusiasm of then president of company, whose name escapes me at the moment.
For more history of Matra and its roadcars see here: http://www.matrasport.dk/history.html
For their racing history (not too satisfying, I didn't look for mistakes but couldn't not notice that it says nothing about their role as engine supplier to Ligier, where Laffite managed to achieve a win for that glorious engine in F1 at last) see here: http://www.matraspor...es/history.html
And on that page you will also find a link to some magnificent Matra engine sounds...

[VDP]

JL Lagardère was the president of Matra a company involved with military equipment
They aren't anymore in joint venture with Renault
By the way don(t forget the previous Shadow Matra in 1975 at the wheel JP JARIER


Robert

[dmj]

Yes, of course, Jean Luc Legardere, he is even mentioned in one of links I sent...

[Wellington]

Hi

Matra makes the Espace for Renault, but will no more as soon as the panels are no longer made in fiberglass composite but in steel.
As a replacement, they will build the Avantime (kind of big coupe-limo).
I heard of the low-budget youth-targeting sports car, but that was nearly two years ago. It seems that either the preparation for the production of the Avantime postponed it, or it is merely buried.

That was my 0,02 Euro...

Regards

[Pascal]

Originally posted by fines
And yes, the Velizy base was probably the same for Matra and Peugeot.

False.

MATRA's headquarters has always been based in Vélizy because of the proximity of the Villacoublay airfield. Let's not forget that MATRA is an acronym for "Mécanique Aviation TRAction". MATRA-Défense and MATRA-Espace, the defence and aerospace branches (now parts of the EADS conglomerate) are still based there nowadays...

[dbltop]

Mosport 1971, im 13 and 3/4 years old. The DFV's and flat 12's had their own sound,but nothing .NOTHING, will ever replace the sound of the Matra V12. We were at turn 5(or Moss' corner) and we could tell when Amon was coming through turn 3. I've got pictures from super 8 put onto video tape but unfortunately no sound.But i'll never forget it.

[Pascal]

One last thing...

Originally posted by Wellington
I heard of the low-budget youth-targeting sports car, but that was nearly two years ago. It seems that either the preparation for the production of the Avantime postponed it, or it is merely buried.

The MATRA 72 project is still alive and well, and the company is actually negotiating with Renault in order to sell these cars through their network.

[BRG]

Thanks to everyone who has replied.

We could do with more French members to help with such questions! It seems that once Tyrell had gone his own way, this became a completely French effort with chassis and engine both built in-house. That is something that we perhaps forget at times in the Ferrari v. garagistes debate.

Incidentally, no-one picked up on my question about whether there was just one Matra V12 design? It seems likely, given that all of Matra's F1 engine history fell within the timespan when the DFV was dominant, but can anyone confirm it?

[Vitesse2]

According to Doug Nye's Autocourse History, the Matra V12 was essentially the same engine throughout its life, although the type number changed frequently as new developments were introduced. The original 1968 type number was MS9, in 1969-70 MS12. From 1971 the system changed and the engines were numbered by year, starting with MS71.

(And before someone jumps in - yes I know there were no F1 Matra engines in 1969, but they continued development in the sports cars! )

[fines]

Oh dear!

[to himself] Do not post without checking your sources! Do not post without checking your sources! [/to himself]

Still, I wasn't too far off: In 1970 Matra was definitely bought by Simca, which was by then 99% owned by Chrysler, but this purchase included only the car sector of Matra. Maybe that's why there are still Matra divisions in Vélizy?

The Matra car plant indeed produced the Renault Espace from 1984 onwards, even if this feels a bit strange, because I have never heard of a trade of Matra from PSA to Renault. If Matra still belonged to PSA in the early nineties, I was under the impression that it would've been only natural to have the Peugeot competitions department in the same place. That is, I don't know who owns Matra now, and the Peugeot competitions department is of not so much interest to me since I am "THE"

MONOPOSTO MONOMANIAC [tm]!

[dmj]

Matra Automobile is today fully owned by Lagardere group, also major shareholder in EADS, part of Matra that works mainly in aviation and space industry.
And I'm still not convinced that Chrysler/Simca ever bought Matra. I really don't beleive Chrysler would allow production of Ford engined 530 for so long - it is replaced by Bagheera in 1973.

[fines]

... but Renault would allow the Matra engine to be used by the rival Talbot team in 1981/2?;)

[dmj]

Matra developed Espace independently and offered it to Peugeot who refused the project. Then they turned to Renault and in 1983 they signed a contract to build Espace. In few months Murena and Rancho were gone... So Renault had nothing with Matra in 1981/2.
AFAK, Matra was always an independent company developing own car projects and then building it along with a partner who showed interest in project. From 1967-1973 they worked with Ford (with no such strong connections as later), 1973-1983 with Simca-Talbot (owned by Chrysler and then Peugeot), and from 1983. with Renault. Renault probably pays more, because there no longer exists Matra name on Matra developed and build cars.
But agreement with Simca could be signed before 1973. In fact it certainly was, because Matra cars raced at Le Mans in 1972. with Matra Simca written at the front of the car.

[Megatron]

Because it was Ford who paid Jackie Stewart's salary? I never thought the Matra V12 was that bad of an engine, and considering that Tyrrell had to take an off the shelf March for the start of the season, I assume that perhaps $$$ might have had something to do with it...

[Wolf]

My guess is that he found a simple and effective solution in the form of DFV, while he may not have expected the same from french engine, especially straight from the drawing board. Besides, his Matra International team had been using Cosworth in lower Formulae and Matra Sports had an idea about all-french combination in GP right from the start... Let it be noted that IIRC Matra International scored 9 wins, whereas Matra Sport scored none.

[Gary Davies]

Ken Tyrrell was profoundly impressed with the Cosworth DFV when he saw Jimmy win with it out of the box at Zandvoort in 1967 (Doug Nye - The Grand Prix Tyrrells), and he immediately ordered one from Cosworth for 1968, not knowing, at that time, in which chassis he would race it.

During the summer of '67, Jackie Stewart was in the process of concluding that BRM was not the place to be and was being wooed by Ferrari for 1968. Those discussions ultimately came to nought and upon learning that a Stewart/Tyrrell team up in F1 was guaranteed for '68, Engins Matra agreed to make a chassis available for Tyrrell for Formula One.

So I guess the engine preceded the chassis in effect!

This was the MS9/1, very much based on the MS5 Formula 2 car. By The Race of Champions in March, Tyrrell had received their first "proper" Formula One Matra, MS10/1 and of course, the Matra V12 engine had still not appeared by then. Its first appearance was not until Monaco, at the very end of May.

BTW, the reference to March is not relevant. The Tyrrell March saga was two years away, in 1970, and it happened only because Tyrrell need a stop gap until Tyrrell's SP (Secret Project) saw the light of day in the form of Tyrrell 001.

Vanwall.

[Megatron]

Not relavant? In 1970, Tyrrell could have ran the Matra with a V12 or a March with a DFV. That much is true. The Tyrrell debuted late in the season, which was really Tyrrell's plan. The March was never considered to be a long term option. I think that is correct.

[Catalina Park]

For 1970 Tyrrell was in a corner he had Stewart, Ford and Dunlop. He could have Matra chassis but they said that he had to use their engine, so he went looking for a chassis and ended up with a March, that shows how desperate he was! or does it.
While March was an unknown Robin Herd had a good reputation from his Mclaren cars but a lot of people don't know that Ken Tyrrell went to Jack Brabham for a chassis but was turned down flat.
But Ken didn't know that Jack had sold his half to Ron Touranac and that Ron would have sold Ken a chassis!
Could you imagine what Jackie Stewart could have done in a BT33 and would Ken have built his own cars if that had happened?

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by Megatron
Not relavant? In 1970, Tyrrell could have ran the Matra with a V12 or a March with a DFV.

Mega, no offence meant, I assumed from the original posting that you were referring to Tyrrell's first running of a Matra chassis in F1, in 1968. I have always believed that by 1970 he was too entrenched with the Cosworth to swap to Matra power.

Back to Doug Nye. "At about this time Matra Sports - the racing car division of the Engins Matra aerospace and missile giant - was taken over by Simca, the French arm of the Chrysler Corporation. Clearly Chrysler would not allow the happy Matra-Ford marriage to continue into 1970, and Matra's management clearly wanted Tyrrell and Stewart to use their rapidly developing V12 engine in Formula 1.

"All Tyrrell's Formula 1 experience had been with the British Cosworth V8, and after comparative testing of the two 3-litre engines at Albi in November (1969) he and Stewart were convinced that continued Ford allegiance was their passport to success. The V12 lacked mid-range punch."

This suggests that the decision in favour of Ford power was based solely on performance. It would be interesting to know more about what part Stewart's relationship with Dearborn may have been playing by this time.

Vanwall.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Here is my Ford V4-powered '71 Matra 530LX



More renowned for his efforts in Matra prototypes, here we can see Henri Pescarolo hanging out the tail in a Matra 530.

[cabianca]

As Mark McCormack's motorsports man at the time, I was involved in these negotiations. Stewart and Tyrrell were both convinced that the Ford would be superior to the Matra V-12 on most circuits and would be infinitely more reliable. Stewart also knew that Tyrrell was going to build a chassis. That were the reasons they proceeded as they did, and they were proven correct. The Brabham refusal to sell Tyrrell a chassis was based on the Goodyear financing of the Brabham team and, whatever has been written, Ron Tauranac wasn't about to upset that relationship. Jackie, of course, would be influenced by the Ford money. I'm not sure Ken would have. In the true long run, it certainly served Jackie well. He got Ford to build him a Formula 1 factory which he sold back to them for $150 mil US. An interesting transaction, not one that would impress me as a Ford shareholder, which I'm not.

[Dave Ware]

Wish I could remember where I read or heard this, but in 1968, 1970, and thereabouts, Ken Tyrrell was quoted as rating five elements necessary for success in F1 in the following order:

1. Driver
2. Engine
3. Tires
4. Team
5. Chassis

So Ken already had the best driver, or one of the two or three best. The DFV looked good and it was cheap, I think it was 7500 English pounds. He had the tires and the team, and for a temporary period of time (that is until his own car was ready ) the chassis was the last thing he needed to worry about.

In '68 Beltoise ran the V12, while Steward had the DFV. So I think Ken had good opportunity to compare the two. In addition to the testing at Albi mentioned.

Dave

[karlcars]

The Matra V-12 was definitely not the same throughout its career. Here is a relevand small excerpt from my book, Classic Racing Engines, which has a chapter on the V-012:

During the years of Grand Prix dominance by the Ford-Cosworth V8 no one was in a better position to challenge it than Matra, makers of the chassis of the car that won the world championship in 1969 under Jackie Stewart, powered by the four-cam Ford. Matra had a perfect yardstick for direct comparisons.

French aerospace company S.A. Engins Matra found itself in the automobile business in 1964 when it acquired the small sports-car company of René Bonnet. Acquiring with it a taste for automotive competition, Matra used its excellent government contacts to obtain a grant of FFr6 million toward the construction of France’s own V12 Formula 1 engine. Matra’s head of engine design, Georges Martin, quietly negotiated a contract with BRM to design much of the engine, but this was annulled when Sir Alfred Owen spoke indiscreetly about it to an industry gathering. Nevertheless the V12 did manifest some BRM characteristics.

Launched in 1967, Matra's first V12 had four-valve chambers with the valves inclined at a 56° included angle, requiring a deep chamber and a high-domed piston. Martin was already well aware that this was not ideal. The MS9’s output of 390 bhp at 10,500 rpm was good but not – Matra knew – up to the standard of the Ford, especially in combination with the twelve’s relatively high fuel consumption.

While the MS9 (MS = Matra Sport) went into action Matra’s power unit consultants, Moteur Moderne in Paris, built a single-cylinder test engine with a narrower valve angle and a flatter piston top. A single 10 mm central spark plug for the chamber was kept, but the narrower angle forced the inlet ports away from the centre of the head – where they had been on the MS9 – and back to the centre of the vee of the complete engine.

Based on these tests major engine revisions were made in time for the 1970 season. Under the finned magnesium cam covers of the new MS12 V12 were inlet valves inclined at 16° and exhaust valves at 17½° for a total included angle of 33½°. The inlet valves were made of 30NCD16 nickel-chrome-molybdenum steel and had 31 mm heads, while the exhaust valves were 27 mm in diameter. A later development of the 1970 engine had valves 33.0 and 27.2 mm in diameter. Both valves had bronze guides and nickel-bronze seats, which were inserted after being shrunk in liquid nitrogen.

[pertti_jarla]

For modelling purposes I need as detailed info & pictures of the Matra MS10 as possible...any magazine article/book recommendations?

[macoran]

Here is a Robert Roux cutaway drawing of MS10 which may be of use to you

[pertti_jarla]

Thanks a lot, good cutaways are gold!