17 replies to this topic

[man]

We all know John Barnard introduced the concept on the Ferrari 640 in 1989 and the test car the 639 before that. I've heard though that Ferrari had toyed with the idea all the way back since the late '70's? Anybody have any info?

[FEV]

Wasn't it Colin Chapman who pionered the concept in F1 ? The 1974 Lotus originally had a semi-atuomatic 'box but it maybe was too early.

[Yorgos]

Forghieri was in fact toying with the idea since the mid/late 70s. Barnard found everything ready.

Cheers
Yorgos

[Marco94]

Ferrari was involved with Van Doorne's Transmissies to develop an F1 version of the CVT. Maybe that's what you mean?

[italia]

Wasn't that Williams with the cvt?
One of the reasons Ferrari didn't get semi-automatic gearchanges in the late seventies was Gilles: He hated it, gearchanging was part of racing in his eyes!

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by FEV
Wasn't it Colin Chapman who pionered the concept in F1 ? The 1974 Lotus originally had a semi-atuomatic 'box but it maybe was too early.

The Lotus 76 had an automatic clutch aimed at smoothing gearchanges. Chapman was very keen on this sort of thing; the original 79 had a conceptual development of the Lotus "queerbox" of the 1950s. Neither really worked and were soon abandoned. THey were very different from the electronicaly operated gearboxes introduced by John Barnard.

In the 1960s, Dan Gurney enquired about using the DAF variomatic transmission on an Eagle. They were used with some success on F3 cars entered by the Chequered Flag. Unfortunately the size of the pulleys required increased with the cube of the power (or perhaps torque) being transmitted, making them difficult to package in a 400bhp car.

[bobbo]

On an somewhat related point, does any one have any information on the old Wilson Pre-Selector gearbox used in the '50s?? I remember reading about it "a few years" ago and can't seem to remember much of anything about it. Did it get into F1?? If so, Who and when??

Thanks, folks!!

Bobbo

[fines]

I think the ERAs had pre-selector 'boxes... ??!?

[bobbo]

Michael:

ERAs?? I kinda sorta remember that. Any others?? Gotta be some from that era (pun unintended )!

I guess the Wilson gearboxes were a "kind - of" semi-automatic, after a fashion . . .

Bobbo

[Roger Clark]

The ERAs certainly did have pre-selector gearboxes, as did a number of other British cars of that time. The driver selected the gear he wanted, using a quadrant style lever. When he wanted to engage the gear he pressed the "clutch" pedal. There was actually no clutch at all.

The Wilson box was also fitted to the Lago-Talbot T26C. Pierre Abeillon (Automobile Historique) thought that this was because Lago owned shares in Wilson, not because of any performance gain.

[Megatron]

A lot of people thought Ferrari were crazy trying to work with the semis.

I said it once and I'll say it again. I don't think that over one lap, the times will be very much different between a squential and a semi, but over the course of a race, it can be a big difference.

[Catalina Park]

The Connaught was the last car to use the Pre-select gearbox..............My God even Bernie has driven one! I think it was a big help for Archie Scott Brown when he drove them.

[Megatron]

The famous one armed driver?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
The Connaught was the last car to use the Pre-select gearbox..............My God even Bernie has driven one! I think it was a big help for Archie Scott Brown when he drove them.

Although, of course, Archie drove many cars with a conventional gearbox.

This may be an appropriatee thread to ask a number of questions about automatic gearboxes that have been troubling me.

The first concerns the Chaparrals. They were always said to have an automatic gearbox. Jim Hall ws famously secretive; and when asked how the gearbox worked, he allegedly said "Just fine". My understanding is that the car had a normal two or three speed gearbox coupled to a torque converter. Therefore the driver could either changer gear normally (but with no clutch) or let the torque converter do the work. This to my mind is not an automatic gearbox at all. Is this correct?

The second concerns the works Ford GTs which appeared in 1966 (th J-cay) and 67 (the Mark 4). These were said to have autmatic gearboxes. Were they fully automatic, or did they use theChaparral principle?

THe same question concerns the Ferguson system used on some McLaren sports cars in 1966.

The last concenrs the "F1-style" gearchanges on some modern road cars, such as BMW, Audi and Porsche. THese often have padels behind the streering wheel to control the gearbox. Do these have a torque converter, which would make them completely different from the F1 cars?

[david_martin]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

The last concenrs the "F1-style" gearchanges on some modern road cars, such as BMW, Audi and Porsche. THese often have padels behind the streering wheel to control the gearbox. Do these have a torque converter, which would make them completely different from the F1 cars?

The answer to this question is some do and some don't. The original "Tiptronic" gearbox Porsche introduced with the 993 used a torque converter, and there are a number of "clutch pedal-less" manual gearboxes which work this way. The current BMW M3, the Alfa 146/156, and the Ferrari 360 Modena (there may well be others too) use a conventional clutch with electro-hydraulic actuators for actuation and gear selection more along the lines of modern F1 cars. There are also a number of solutions which are actually CVT gearboxes with a series of pre-programmed ratios - the Fiat Punto and MG-F are examples of this.

[karlcars]

Just as a matter of interest, this is what I wrote for Ferrari about their geabox on the occasion of their 50th anniversary:

Over the years various experiments had been conducted with ways of automating the process of shifting gears in a racing car. Gearshifting demands concentration and effort from the driver that he can more usefully expend on other aspects of his task. There was also value in reducing the driver’s chance of making the shifting errors that have been responsible for so many blown engines and drive-line failures.

With the coming of the turbocharged Formula 1 engines, renowned for their delay in response to the throttle, the potential advantages of a semi-automatic transmission again came up for consideration. Ferrari developed such a transmission in the 1979-80 period and installed it for testing in the 312T4. Although it was successfully tested at Fiorano by Gilles Villeneuve, the project was temporarily set aside.

The concept was resurrected for use in the post-turbo era. Under the direction of Briton John Barnard, who began working with Ferrari in November 1986, an electronically-controlled semi-automatic transmission was developed for Formula 1 racing. The specific engineering on this advanced project at Maranello was under the direction of engineer de Silvestri.

In 1989, with its new Type 640 Formula 1 car, Ferrari revolutionised racing-car transmissions. For the first time — a sensational advance — the driver could shift up or down simply by pressing the appropriate paddle underneath the steering wheel. Electronic controls wired to hydraulic actuators effected the shifts, quickly and precisely. The driver could keep his hands on the wheel and concentrate on cornering. After he made his standing start he could forget entirely about the clutch.

The transmission was first tested and developed on the Type 639 Ferrari, of which two were built. This was the never-raced 1988 prototype of the Type 640, the definitive 3½-litre Ferrari Formula 1 car for 1989. Its transmission was a breakthrough concept that subsequently influenced all Formula 1 racing cars and many road cars as well.

Although changes in regulations later limited the amount of automation that the gearbox could provide, the concept introduced by Ferrari became and remained the baseline for excellence in drive trains for Formula 1 racing cars.

[italia]

One truly amazing thing is that this car won its first race with Nigel Mansell (new in the team)

[Marco94]

Karl,

Is the project that you describe the same project as the one I mean, the CVT? VDT used a double, early incarnation of the push-belt for that transmission. I'll see if I can get some more information from VDT. And yes, VDT was involved with both Ferrari and Williams.