11 replies to this topic

[Marcor]

Can you check this results ?
Remember that the entrants of the 1924 Coppa Florio had to run one further lap to the track once completed the Targa Florio.

My sources gave the following results:
Coppa Florio (Madonies) (27 April 1924)
1- Werner (Mercedes PP 2 L) 8h 17' 13"
2- Masetti (Alfa Romeo RLTF 3.6 L) 8h 26' 02"
3- Campari (Alfa Romeo RLTF 3.6 L) 8h 29' 18"
4- Boillot (Peugeot 174S 3.8 L) 8h 30' 08"
5- Dubonnet (Hispano-Suiza H6C 8 L) 8h 36' 18"
6- Rutzler (Steyr VI Klausen 4.9 L) 8h 36' 22"
7- Foresti (Peugeot 174 3.8 L) 8h 39' 33"
8- Lautenschlager (Mercedes PP 2 L) 9h 0' 12"
9- Maserati A (Diatto 20S) 9h 04'
10- Dauvergne (Peugeot 174 3.8 L) 9h 07' 51"
11- Neubauer (Mercedes PP 2 L) 9h 30' 27"
12- Schoof (Aga 6/30PS 1.5 L) 9h 36' 19"
13- Wagner (Alfa Romeo RL TF 3 L) 9h 39' 41"
14- Gamboni (Amilcar CGS) 9h 58' 48"
15- Mayer (Steiger 10/50PS 2.9 L)
16- Rebuffo (Itala 51SS 3 L)

Targa Florio: 4 laps
Coppa Florio: 5 laps.

Sheldon said that Rebuffo retired after two laps in the Targa Florio. So why is he included here ?

[FEV]

Hi Marcor,

From Henri Cohin's book :

1924 Coppa Florio.

1. Werner (Mercedes) - 8h17'13''0
2. Masetti (ALFA) - 8h26'03''3
3. Campari (ALFA) - 8h29'21''0
4. Boillot (Peugeot) - 8h30'11''0
5. Dubonnet (Hispano-Suiza) - 8h36'18''2
6. Rutzler (Steyr) - 8h36'23''0
7. Foresti (Peugeot) - 8h39'40''0
8. Wagner (ALFA) - 8h49'44''2
9. Lautenschlager (Mercedes) - 9h00'16''0
10. Brilli-Peri (Steyr) - 9h03'06''0
11. Maserati (Diatto) - 9h04'02''3
12. Dauvergne (Peugeot) - 9h07'55''0
13. Neubauer (Mercedes) - 9h30'29''2
14. School (Aga) - 9h36'22''0
15. Sandonnino (Itala) - 9h41'56''0
16. Gamboni (Amilcar) - 10h00'51''0

So, quite a few differences as you can see ! The top 7 is the same (except for some time differences) but then : what about Louis Wagner, Gastone Brilli-Peri, Sandonnino, etc... ?
Cohin doesn't mention all the reasons for the retirements of some of the 40 starters and therefore doesn't mention Rebuffo at all except in the entry list.
Note he has 1/5 of a seconf precision in his total times.

Do you want the TF results to compare ?

[Marcor]

Targa Florio, 4 laps, from Sheldon Volume 1:
1- Werner Mercedes PP 2 L n°10, 6h 32' 37"
2- Masetti Alfa Romeo RLTF 3,6 L n°11, 6h 41' 44"
3- Ascari Alfa Romeo RLTF 3,6 L n°24, 6h 42' 30"
4- Bordino / Nazzaro Fiat 805 1500 cm³ n°8, 6h 46' 34"
5- Campari Alfa Romeo RLTF 3,6 L n°34, 6h 46' 51"
6- Boillot Peugeot 174S 3,8 L 4 cylindres n°28, 6h 47' 01"
7- Dubonnet Hispano-Suiza H6C 8 L 46 HP 320.001 n°1, 6h 52' 44"
8- Rutzler Steyr VI Klausen 4,9 L n°3, 6h 52' 44"
9- Foresti Peugeot 174 3,8 L n°4, 6h 52' 45"
10- Wagner Alfa Romeo RL TF 3 L n°35, 6h 55' 58"
11- Lautenschlager Mercedes PP 2 L n°32, 7h 07' 18"
12- Brilli-Peri Steyr VI Klausen 4,9 L n°27, 7h 10' 55"
13- Maserati A Diatto 20S n°20, 7h 11' 03"
14- Dauvergne Peugeot 174 3,8 L n°18, 7h 13' 45"
15- Mayer-Brillon Steiger 10/50PS 2,9 L n°16, 7h 26' 56"
16- Neubauer Mercedes PP 2 L n°23, 7h 33' 19"
17- Scholl Aga 6/30PS 1500 cc 4 cyl n°6, 7h 44' 30"
18- Sandonnino Itala 51SS 3 L n°31, 7h 44' 30"
19- Castaldetti Fast 3.0 n°39, 7h 57' 33"
20- Gamboni Amilcar CGS n°5, 7h 59' 07
21- Tarabusi Fast 3.0 n°38, 8h 01' 16"
22- Pagani Aga 6/30PS 1500 cc 4 cyl n°29, 9h 27' 59"

FL- Werner Mercedes PP 2 L n°10, 1h 34' 59" 8

DNF (mechanic exhausted, 3 laps)- Minoia Steyr VI Klausen 4,9 L n°17
DNF(3 laps)- Pastore Fiat 519 n°30
DNF(3 laps)- Haimovic Ballot 2LS 3 L
DNF(3 laps)- Stahl Aga 6/30PS 1500 cc 4 cyl n°19
DNF(throttle pedal, 3 laps)- Goux Ballot 2LS 3 L n°7
DNF(3 laps)- Kaufmann Steiger 10/50PS 2,9 L n°2
DNF(3 laps)- Kolb Steiger 10/50PS 2,9 L n°26
DNF(2 laps)- Tagliavia FAST 3.0 3 L n°40
DNF(2 laps)- Antonelli Mercedes GP14 n°41
DNF(2 laps)- Caruso Bianchi 20 n°37
DNF(2 laps)- Rebuffo Itala 51SS 3 L n°22
DNF(2 laps)- Lopez Nazzaro GP4.5 n°15
DNF(2 laps)- Moriondo Itala 51SS 3 L n°9
DNF(1 lap)- Philipps Aga 6/30PS 1500 cc 4 cyl n°36
DNF(1 lap)- Mucera Ceirano CS24 n°12

DNA- d'Argentina SPA 30/40 n°14
DNS (crash)- Salamano Fiat 805 n°21
DNA- Spadoni SPA 30/40 n°25
DNA- Conelli SPA 30/40 n°34

and from Les Sport, 30 April 1924
1- Werner Mercedes PP 2 L n°10, 6h 32' 35"
2- Masetti Alfa Romeo RLTF 3,6 L n°11, 6h 41' 53"
3- Ascari Alfa Romeo RLTF 3,6 L n°24, 6h 41' 53"
4- Bordino Fiat 805 1500 cm³ n°8, 6h 46' 32"
5- Campari Alfa Romeo RLTF 3,6 L n°34, 6h 46' 45"
6- Boillot A. Peugeot 174S 3,8 L 4 cylindres n°28, 6h 46' 59""
7- Dubonnet Hispano-Suiza H6C 8 L 46 HP 320.001 n°1, 6h 50' 24"
8- Rutzler Steyr VI Klausen 4,9 L n°3, 6h 52' 42"
9- Foresti Peugeot 174 3,8 L n°4, 6h 52' 43"
10- Lautenschlager Mercedes PP 2 L n°32, 7h 05' 15"
11- Brilli-Peri Steyr VI Klausen 4,9 L n°27, 7h 10' 53"
12- Maserati A Diatto 20S n°20, 7h 11' 01"
13- Dauvergne Peugeot 174 3,8 L n°18, 7h 13' 44"
14- Mayer-Brillon Steiger 10/50PS 2,9 L n°16, 7h 26' 55"
15- Wagner Alfa Romeo RL TF 3 L n°35, 7h 26' 55"
16- Neubauer Mercedes PP 2 L n°23, 7h 33' 17"
19- Castaldetti Fast 3.0 n°39, 7h 37' 38"
18- Rebuffo Itala 51SS 3 L n°31, 7h 44' 27"
19- Scholl Aga 6/30PS 1500 cc 4 cyl n°6, 7h 49' 45"
20- Gamboni Amilcar CGS n°5, 7h 59' 06"
21- Tarabusi Fast 3.0 n°38, 8h 01' 10"

and compare now !!!

[FEV]

Marcor,

I never doubted you had better sources than me about this (or anything else in fact !), but I thought you just wanted some data to compare ! I feel like you seemed upset by my first post - so sorry if I offended you Marc, it was not my aim at all.


TARGA FLORIO 1924.

1. Werner Mercedes 6h 32’ 37’’2
2. Masetti ALFA-Romeo 6h 41’ 04’’1
3. Bordino FIAT 6h 46’ 34’’0
4. Campari ALFA-Romeo 6h 46’ 51’’0
5. Boillot Peugeot 6h 47’ 01’’0
6. Dubonnet Hispano-Suiza 6h 50’ 24’’3
7. Rutzler Steyr 6h 52’ 44’’1
8. Foresti Peugeot 6h 52’ 45’’0
9. Wagner ALFA-Romeo 6h 55’ 58’’3
10. Lautenschlager Mercedes 7h 07’ 07’’0
11. Brilli-Peri Steyr 7h 10’ 55’’0
12. Maserati Diatto 7h 11’ 03’’4
13. Dauvergne Peugeot 7h 13’ 45’’2
14. Mayer Steiger 7h 26’ 56’’0
15. Neubauer Mercedes 7h 33’ 19’’4
16. School Aga 7h 40’ 48’’4
17. Sandonnino Itala 7h 44’ 33’’4
18. Gastaldetti FAST 7h 57’ 33’’4
19. Gamboni Amilcar 7h 59’ 07’’0
20. Tarabusi FAST 8h 01’ 16’’0
21. Pagani Aga 9h 27’ 59’’3

FL Werner (Mercedes) – 1h 34’ 59’’4 (68,213 kph).

The most striking difference of course is the absence of Ascari. For Cohin, Ascari while chasing leader Werner in the last lap had a minor accident shortly before the finish line. He was helped by spectators to put the car back on the road and although he completed the race (no time given) he was disqualified. In your first post about the Coppa Florio, Ascari is not mentionned - do Sheldon or Les Sports give a reason for his eventual retirement in the 5th lap ?

Minoia’s mechanic is said to be ill because of the numerous turns of the course and lost consciousness. Minoia was not able to resuscitate him so he had to retire.

Cohin does not give the reasons for the other retirements, only saying after the standings of the 4th lap that “all the other starters” had retired.

What might be of interest are the partial standings after the first, second and third laps :

Positions after lap 1.

1. Masetti ALFA-Romeo 1h 36’ 08’’3 – 67,400 km/h
2. Dubonnet Hispano-Suiza 1h 36’ 25’’
3. Boillot Peugeot 1h 36’ 38’’
4. Ascari ALFA-Romeo 1h 36’ 49”
5. Werner Mercedes 1h 36’ 47’’
6. Rutzler Steyr 1h 37’ 06’’
7. Campari ALFA-Romeo 1h 38’ 45’’
8. Minoia Steyr 1h 39’ 18’’
9. Foresti Peugeot 1h 39’ 22’’
10. Bordino FIAT 1h 39’ 40’’
11. Wagner ALFA-Romeo 1h 41’ 58’’
12. Brilli-Peri Steyr 1h 42’ 36’’
13. Pastore FIAT 1h 43’ 06’’
14. Lautenschlager Mercedes 1h 44’ 04’’
15. Dauvergne Peugeot 1h 44’ 10’’


Positions after lap 2.

1. Werner Mercedes 3h 11’ 46’’4 – 65,576 km/h
2. Ascari ALFA-Romeo 3h 13’ 50’’
3. Boillot Peugeot 3h 15’ 11’’
4. Masetti ALFA-Romeo 3h 17’ 39’’
5. Bordino FIAT 3h 17’ 45’’
6. Campari ALFA-Romeo 3h 18’ 29’’
7. Rutzler Steyr 3h 19’ 30’’
8. Foresti Peugeot 3h 23’ 43’’
9. Wagner ALFA-Romeo 3h 24’ 20’’
10. Lautenschlager Mercedes 3h 24’ 43’’
11. Dubonnet Hispano-Suiza 3h 24’ 51’’

Fastest second lap : Werner (Mercedes) – 1h 34’ 59’’4 (68,213 km/h).


Positions after lap 3.

1. Werner Mercedes 4h 51’ 01’’0 – 66,798 km/h.
2. Ascari ALFA-Romeo 4h 53’ 54’’
3. Masetti ALFA-Romeo 4h 57’ 17’’
4. Boillot Peugeot 4h 57’ 57’’
5. Bordino FIAT 5h 01’ 28’’
6. Campari ALFA-Romeo 5h 04’ 20’’
7. Rutzler Steyr 5h 04’ 43’’
8. Foresti Peugeot 5h 05’ 00’’
9. Dubonnet Hispano-Suiza 5h 08’ 10’’


From this can be extracted the time of each of the four laps for 8 drivers :

Werner 1h 36’ 47’’ 1h 34’ 59’’4 1h 39’ 14’’1 1h 41’ 36’’2
Masetti 1h 36’ 08’’3 1h 41’ 30’’2 1h 39’ 38’’ 1h 43’ 47’’1
Bordino 1h 39’ 40’’ 1h 38’ 05’’ 1h 43’ 43’’ 1h 45’ 06’’
Campari 1h 38’ 45’’ 1h 39’ 44’’ 1h 45’ 51’’ 1h 42’ 31’’
Boillot 1h 36’ 38’’ 1h 38’ 33’’ 1h 42’ 46’’ 1h 49’ 04’’
Dubonnet 1h 36’ 25’’ 1h 48’ 26’’ 1h 43’ 19’’ 1h 42’ 14’’3
Rutzler 1h 37’ 06’’ 1h 42’ 24’’ 1h 45’ 13’’ 1h 48’ 01’’1
Foresti 1h 39’ 22’’ 1h 44’ 21’’ 1h 41’ 17’’ 1h 47’ 45’’


Can you see where Cohin might have made a mistake ? What do you think of Ascari's
"disqualification" ? Could some of the numerous differences in elapsed times come from the fact that one of our sources converted average speeds into time ?

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Perhaps I can add some more (to the confusion?). This is a page I am working with right now and I want you to know it's under construction:

http://user.tninet.s...91w/Targa24.htm

And now, some Italian lesson, this is from Settant'anni di gare automobilistiche in Italia. The author is Emanuele Alberto Carli.

About Coppa Florio:
"La gra fu compresa nella Targa Florio; i concorrenti alla Coppa dovevano compiere un giro in piú di quelli fissati per la Targa"

About Antonio Ascari:
" Ascari non conquistò il 1. posto in quanto gli si bloccò il motore in prossimità del traguardo e, poichè per regolamento non poteva spingere a mano la vettura, fu costretto a riparare il guasto perdendo 14 minuti"

Someone who can translate? Alessandro?


Stefan

[Marcor]

You thought right. I just would have data to compare and I never was upset by your post !

Yes there's a problem with Ascari.Was he disqualified initially and reinstated later ? Sheldon says: that there is some reason to believe that Ascari was disqualified but as contemporary Italian reports quote him in third place, he is given the benefit of the doubt.

My contemporary report (Les Sports) quoted him in 3rd place and I had to check the reports as I don't remember if the report spoke about the problem of Ascari.

About the Coppa Florio, Sheldon says: The race (The Targa Florio) was also combined with the Coppa Florio but as this was held for serie production cars, it does not have a place in these records. Suffice it to say that the competitors had an extra lap to complete which resulted in the same driver winning that trophy as won the main race.

I think Ascari could not comp(l)ete the final lap of the Coppa Florio. Always according Sheldon: At the end of the (fourth) lap, Werner crossed the line and stopped for replenishments prior to setting off on the final lap of the Coppa Florio. He had set off nearly 1/4 hour ahead of Ascari so he left the pits not knowing the outcome. As the time for Ascari's arrival came, the cannon sounded that greeted each driver and the crowd craned their necks only for Ascari's engine to seize on the final corner so that the gallant driver spun to a halt. Immediately the driver and his mechanic jumped out and started pushing the car towards the line. But this took time and by the time the weary crew crossed the line, the total time was greater than Werner and Masetti so the valiant Ascari had to be content with third place.

[FEV]

Sorry Marc ! I should believe them when they tell me that insomnia leads to paranoia !

About Ascari your idea that he was initially dq'ed and then reinstalled sounds good. In the "Les Sports" standings you posted Ascari is credited with the exact same time as Masetti - that's strange... Could it be that this was the results of his post-race reinstallement ?

Stefan,
my Italian lessons are far behind me and altough I think I understand these few lines, I'll let Alessandro do the translation, which will prevent us from habving more confusion here ;)

[Hans Etzrodt]

W. F. Bradley: TARGA Florio, 1955, London writes on page 88 and 91:

"..... While the result was still in doubt, a gun fired from the watch tower indicated that a car had entered the long, straight seashore stretch. It was far away to be distinguished, but it was announced to be red. Thus it could only be Ascari, and he had won the Coppa Florio by seconds. The crowd roared itself hoarse as the low-built Alfa Romeo swung round the easy left-hand bend in front of the stands and only 50 yards from the finishing line. Then an awed silence fell on it, for the car suddenly spun wildly and stopped dead - the engine had seized solid. Defiant of all regulations, flouting danger, a score of official and unofficial persons rushed across to the car with the vague idea of helping Ascari, who was struggling with the starting handle. It was impossible to turn the engine; it was equally impossible for driver and mechanic to push the car up the rise to the nearby finishing line. Finally, helped by more mechanics and only too-willing outsiders, the Alfa Romeo was pushed over the line, only to be beaten by the Mercedes, and later, when the excitement had quieted down, to be disqualified....."

[alessandro silva]

Here is the translation:
The Coppa was within the Targa race; competitors would have to do one more lap.

Ascari was not classified first since his engine died a few meters from the finish. The rules not allowing him to push the car, he had to do some repairs losing 14 minutes.

This is the translation. It clearly adds to the confusion because in fact the car was pushed to the finish (there are pictures). It is common knowledge that Ascari was disqualified. If this is faulty knowledge I do not know and I'll check what I can tonight.

FEV, I gather that you have Cohin's book. His Targa reports are in general more accurate than Sheldon. (with the exception of 1925).

[alessandro silva]

The thing is getting really intriguing.

Was Ascari disqualified or wasn’t?

Answer: I do not know.

Once more, never believe to common knowledge, but look for yourself (i.e. follow Hans’ teaching).

I’ve just come home and checked some. We have:
Disqualified: Bradley, Cohin
Classified: Sheldon, Les Sports (Marc), Carli
I also found:
Classified:
i) Cesare de Agostini: Antonio e Alberto Ascari, Rome 1968, pages 20/21/104. (A very well-researched old book)
ii) Prontuario dell’Automobilismo Sportivo, Rome 1956, page 50 (A one-off handbook edited by the Italian Association of Motoring Journalists. It contains the more strikingly interesting collection of track maps that I have ever seen)
iii) Court: Power and Glory, London 1966. page 132 [he gives Ascari 2nd and Masetti 3rd with exchanged times; clearly a misprint]
iv) Venables: First among champions, 2000, page 30.

Disqualified:
My old notes, circa 1965 (sources for these cannot be reconstructed precisely; they were Italian magazines of the period 55/65).

The finishing time is the only thing that could be considered certain: 6h42’30”

You pick.
If you want to know my feeling: Sheldon is correct in his explanation and conclusion.[though as I said I give a lot of credit to Cohin for the early Targas]

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by alessandro silva
.....We have:
Disqualified: Bradley, Cohin
Classified: Sheldon, Les Sports (Marc), Carli
.....

In his results for the 1924 Targa, Carli shows in his book on page 105-106:
1. Werner (Mercedes)
2. Masetti (Alfa Romeo)
3. Bordino (Fiat)
4. Campari (Alfa Romeo)
5. Boillot (Peugeot)
6. Dubonnet (Hispano Suiza)

From these results I have to conclude that Ascari was disqualified, otherwise he would be shown under the first six finishers. Therefore it shoud read under "Disqualified": Bradley, Cohin and Carli.

I also checked results in Automobile Quarterly, Vol. 11, No.4, pg. 376 "Targa Florio - The Races, The Winners, The Circuits - by David Owen, 1973
1. Werner (Mercedes)
2. Masetti (Alfa Romeo)
3. Bordino (Fiat)
In his text Owen writes: ....."and afterwards Ascari was disqualified". (Owen got his information from Bradley!)

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by alessandro silva
.....We have:
Disqualified: Bradley, Cohin
Classified: Sheldon, Les Sports (Marc), Carli
I also found:
Classified:
i) Cesare de Agostini: Antonio e Alberto Ascari, Rome 1968, pages 20/21/104. (A very well-researched old book)
ii) Prontuario dell’Automobilismo Sportivo, Rome 1956, page 50 (A one-off handbook edited by the Italian Association of Motoring Journalists. It contains the more strikingly interesting collection of track maps that I have ever seen)
iii) Court: Power and Glory, London 1966. page 132 [he gives Ascari 2nd and Masetti 3rd with exchanged times; clearly a misprint]
iv) Venables: First among champions, 2000, page 30.

Disqualified:
My old notes, circa 1965 (sources for these cannot be reconstructed precisely; they were Italian magazines of the period 55/65).....

ALFA ROMEO a History, by Peter Hull & Roy Slater, 1982, pg. 27
“.....The fourth lap was the last round of the Targa Florio, and Ascari made such a big effort that he succeeded in getting a one-minute lead over Werner. The Peugeots, meanwhile, were having tyre troubles, and a dreadful thing happened when the oil supply ran short at the pits and Boillot was held up for eight minutes on this account awaiting oil for his thirsty sleeve valve engine. Suddenly on the last bend, with only fifty yards to go, Ascari's Alfa was seen to spin around and come to a stop. The engine had seized. Both Ascari and his mechanic Ramponi struggled with the starting handle, but could do nothing, and were unable between the two of them to push the car up the slope to the finishing line. Eventually, with the help of soldiers and spectators, the car was dragged off the road to allow competitors through, and then, with the further help of mechanics from the pits as well as officials and more spectators, the car was manhandled over the line to be timed as finishing second to Werner's Mercedes. One of the French firms (presumably Peugeot) put in a protest on the grounds that only the crew were allowed to push the car, and this protest was upheld and Ascari was disqualified. Thus Masetti finished second, Bordino third, Campari fourth, Boillot fifth and Dubonnet sixth. Wagner was ninth, Lautenschlager tenth and Neubauer fifteenth. Still there was another lap to go for the Coppa Florio, and when Bordino came into his pit to refuel, he suddenly collapsed. Felice Nazzaro took over the car but later crashed, so the little Fiat was a non-finisher. The five-lap race ended with Werner the winner by nearly nine minutes from Masetti and Campari, with Wagner eighth after being delayed by minor mechanical troubles. Lautenschlager was ninth and Neubauer thirteenth, nearly an hour and a quarter behind Werner. Sixteen cars finished. A monument was afterwards erected by the finish of the Targa Florio course to mark the spot where Ascari lost the race.”

Die großen Rennjahre, by Erwin Tragatsch, 1973, Bern, pg. 38
shows as the first finishers of the 1924 Targa Florio:
1. Werner (Mercedes)
2. Masetti (Alfa Romeo)
3. Bordino (Fiat)
4. Campari (Alfa Romeo)
5. Boillot (Peugeot)
6. Dubonnet (Hispano Suiza)