44 replies to this topic

[Jonathan Merry]

Hi guys,
I am hoping that one of you can fill in the blanks (and add more info) to this list of drivers in the South African drivers championship from 1966 and 67. There are a number of drivers whos first names are a mystery to me, and two drivers (T Jefferies and A Jefferies) who I think may be the same driver. The stats are incomplete as I only have top 6 finishers (from 66) and the winners (from 67) so they are not to be taken with any authority. Apart from the "name" drivers I also have very little idea of the various abilities of the drivers - cautious but fast/ aggressive and unreliable/ slow but reliable etc... I would be curious to find out where they stand in relation to oneanother.
Any help is appreciated in this matter.
BTW: my info is taken from "Sun on the grid"; "Springbok GP"; and the 6th Gear website.


DRIVER CAR HELMET WINS PODIUMS FINISHES HOMETOWN
Dave Charlton Brabham Black 4 7 7 Brotton, Yorkshire, UK
John Love Cooper white 16 17 17 Bulawayo, Rhodesia
Luki Botha Brabham ? 0 2 2 ?
Sam Tingle LDS Climax ? 3 11 12 Manchester UK
Jackie Pretorius Lotus ? 0 5 11 ? Transvaal
Clive Puzey Lotus ? 0 3 8 Bulawayo, Rhodesia
A Jefferies Cooper ? 0 3 8 ?
L Dave Alfa Special ? 0 1 5 ?
R Anderson Brabham ? 1 2 2 ?
Trevor Blokdyk Cooper ? 0 0 2 Krugersdorp
Rauten Hartman Netuar ? 0 0 4 ?
Doug Serrurier LDS Climax ? 0 2 10 Germiston, Transvaal
Basil van Rooyen Cooper ? 0 0 0 Johannesburg
Jack Holme Lotus ? 0 1 1 ?
Dawie Gous Elva-Porsche ? 0 0 1 ?
Peter de Klerk Brabham ? 0 2 3 Pilgrims Rest
T Jefferies Cooper ? 0 1 3 ?
F Maritz Cooper ? 0 0 1 ?
B Neunborn Volson-Alfa ? 0 0 1 ?

Thank you
Jonathan

[Jeremy Jackson]

Jonathan,

Some first names for you:

Frank Maritz
Leo Dave
Tony Jeffries (Drove in th SA championship 66-68 - I don't have Jefferies at all in my full SA results, so I agree that Jeffries / Jefferies will be the same)
Barry Neunborn

Hope this helps, I'm afraid I don't have any hometown details

Cheers

Jeremy

[Vitesse2]

Not sure about this, but the R Anderson you have listed might be Bob Anderson, who is listed in Richie's thread. He certainly ran Brabhams, although as he was British, I'm not sure what he would have been doing in SA.

Mike Lawrence has "Rauten Hartmann" with two N's - also in Hodges (article signed by Lawrence)

[Jonathan Merry]

R Anderson could be Bob Anderson - I had some suspisions that it could be him as Bob Anderson did take part in a number of races in South Africa, and it is not unlikely that he may have attended a few races in the SA Champs (if not the whole season).

Rauten Harmann with two "n's" strikes me as being more correct than with a single "n" - if for nothing more than gut feel.

I am going to take it that Tony Jefferies and A Jefferies are the same person - they never apear in the same race together in my list of results so this makes sense.

Jeremy, where did you get the first names of the drivers you listed? They are not drivers who's names are at all familiar to me, and most of them would appear to have played a small role in the championship. I would be very interested in getting hold of the full list of SA results between 1965 and 1970..... I don't supose you would have them in a digital format that you could email me...? : Somehow I very much doubt it!

[Racer.Demon]

Well Jonathan, Jeremy has compiled some wonderful Excel files on the Shellsport and Aurora results, so he might just have something digitally available...

So Jeremy, do you happen to have such a file on the SADC? Then I'm up for one too! And I think I'm not alone

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
So Jeremy, do you happen to have such a file on the SADC? Then I'm up for one too! And I think I'm not alone

Me please!!

[Megatron]

Was it not John Love who almost pulled off the upset of the decade when he took an old Cooper Climax and finished second with it in 1967? And led up until the late stages with a "precautionary" stop for fuel.

Makes you wonder what would hapen if he had gotten in some real equipment.

[Vitesse2]

IIRC it was necessary, rather than precautionary. And it was pretty much a race of attrition, which is why Love was at the front anyway - he inherited the lead from Hulme, who had a brake fluid leak, with about 20 laps to go, but was passed in the pits by Pedro, who took Cooper's last ever GP win. There were only six classified finishers.

As to potential - Love was already 42 in 1967! He ran competitively in Europe in a Tyrrell F3 Cooper and a Mini Cooper in the early 60s, but broke his arm at Albi in 1964. His last SA GP was in 1972 - he was 47 by then ....

[Jeremy Jackson]

R. Anderson was indeed Bob Anderson - he won the 1966 Rhodesian GP in his BT11.

Yep, I have files of the SA F1 races (Info. mostly from Sheldon's black books, but also from old reports). I'll send them on to you chaps, hopefully later to-day or over the weekend.

Cheers

Jeremy

[Vitesse2]

Jeremy: I used to have all this stuff, but lost it in a fire!!

[Jonathan Merry]

"Yep, I have files of the SA F1 races (Info. mostly from Sheldon's black books, but also from old reports). I'll send them on to you chaps, hopefully later to-day or over the weekend. "

That would be absolutely fantastic Jeremy
I have been searching high and low to compile a list of drivers from the SADC so this would be a God send. If you ever happen to be in Johannesburg let me buy you a drink

[Jonathan Merry]

Another question for Jeremy

I am trying to track down info on the Killarney race track in Cape Town. I have lots of good footage of racing from the modern track and a few pics of the track as it was in the 60's but could always do with more.I am building the track for the GPL game so I need lots of info not commonly found, especially details concerning track elevations, track widths etc...
Is it possible that amongst your race reports and Sheldon's black books (although I think they may ony feature results?) that Killarney is features anywhere? If you do (or anyone else) have any info on Killarney I am very eager to get hold of it.

again,
many many thanks
Jonathan

[Jeremy Jackson]

Jonathan,

Nothing as detailed as that in my F1 & Springbok reports I'm afraid, but I hope you find the information that you need, as I'm a GPL fan myself.

Cheers

Jeremy

[Jonathan Merry]

Ah well you can't win them all

Now please excuse me for punting myself here, but have you downloaded the East London track for GPL? That was my first released track for the game. If not you can get it here http://f2festival.si...ntroduction.htm along with info and pics of 3 other SA tracks.
Hopefully Killarney will be added to the completed list someday

[ry6]

I feel sure that Rauten Hartman had only one "n".
(The race programs I have indicate this.)

R Anderson was "the" Bob Anderson who took part in the odd SA Championship events which were just before or just after the time of the SA Grands Prix.

Anthony Jefferies is the same as Tony Jefferies - he drove John LOve's old Cooper T55.

As for John Love's great drive in the T79 Cooper Climax - well it was brilliant.

While the Repco-Brabhams of Hulme and Brabham were dominant in practice Love

gridded the car in fifth spot at 1 min 29.5 s which was quicker than Surtees (Honda) at 1:29.6 and Rindt's Cooper Maser 1:30.2.

Don't forget it was a privateer car - prepared by him and his mechanics in Rhodesia...thousands of miles away from spare parts....and what parts they couldn't repair or make themselves they had to pay plenty for...(dyas before sponsorship).

Would he have got the same tyre preference as the "works" cars?

His old 2.7 Climax engine was "home" tuned... to make it last a season leading up to the race was a fantastic effort...to make it last an 80 lap World Championship GP in tremendous heat was something else.

During the race he diced with the likes of Surtees and Gurney and more than held his own.

For a good account of that SAGP and Love's heroics read Classic Car Africa - March 1997 or of course Springbok Grand Prix.

[Jeremy Jackson]

Jonathan, thanks for the GPL link, I'll download East London and give it a blast this evening.

Cheers

Jeremy

[bobbo]

Speaking of South Africa, I had a web site bookmarked for a site there that had tons of great racing photos, but I lost it when my hard drive crashed big time and I couldn't salvage anything from it.

Any one able to help??

Just use the PM or E-mail me.

Thanks!!

Bobbo

[Jonathan Merry]

Bobbo,
I wouldn't mind knowing what that link was myself. Do you recall what the name of the site was?

And if anyone is interested, I have made a 1967 SADC driver.ini file for GPL so you can now drive against the likes of John Love, Dave Charlton, Sam Tingle, Luki Botha, Trevor Blokdyk and friends ;)
Just email me if you want it and I will send you a copy. I will in time also upload this to my SA tracks site ( http://f2festival.si...ntroduction.htm ) along with the 66 and 68 season files.

[Vitesse2]

Jonathan: it was Motorpics - I PM'd Bobbo and he confirmed it to me this morning ...

www.motorpics.co.za

[Jonathan Merry]

Thanks Vitesse2
I thought it may be motorpics... but was hoping it was a site I have not come across yet :

Does anyone know of any other good sites with pics of SA motorsport?

[Vitesse2]

No problem Jonathan - perhaps I could direct your attention to this thread: I'd still like to know the answer ...

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=21311

[Roger Clark]

Those of you who have the relevant Sheldon Black book should bear in mind that he published an Addenda volume witha considerable amount of extra information about South African races.

[Allen Brown]

As well as the coverage in the original Volumes 7-10 and then the addenda, Paul Sheldon published Peter Macintosh's "Record of South African Formula 1 Racing" in 1999.

My only slight gripe with this book (apart from the binding!) is the very brief paragraph on sources which just says "the vast majority of the information waa gathered from personal observation at race meetings or from race programmes and bulletins. The journalists of the time who contributed to the various motor magazines of the time deserve a big thank you".

None of these magazines are mentioned, despite chassis numbers being quoted for 95% of the cars over this 16-season 200-odd-race period. So how confidently can I trust these identifications? I'm sure Macintosh isn't guessing but I'd love to know where his knowledge comes from.

Allen

[Jonathan Merry]

Does anyone know if it is possible to buy "Record of South African Formula 1 Racing" online?
I have done a search for it but nothing comes up.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Jonathan Merry
Does anyone know if it is possible to buy "Record of South African Formula 1 Racing" online?
I have done a search for it but nothing comes up.

The specialists like Chaters, Collectors Carbooks and Mill House should all be able to get it for you. The Register do sell it direct, but they don't accept online orders. Do I gather you've found a spare 2000 Rand?!

[Jonathan Merry]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Do I gather you've found a spare 2000 Rand?!

Sure... doesn't everyone? Were all rolling in money over here!!! (then again it is worth so little what else would you do with it?!?)

Actually R2000m is a bit steep, but it is always good to know where you can get these things incase of marrying a rich wife ;)

[Jeremy Jackson]

Jonathan,

Of those places mentioned by Vitesse2, Collectors Carbooks are the only ones to actually list it as current stock. I haven't bought it, as I've just bought Volume 12 (Direct from the F1 R), and unfortunately there are a lot of errors in it.

As I noted with the data that I sent you, some of the black book data is suspect, and Allen's comments on the SA book confirmed my suspicions, so I haven't gone for my wallet / credit card too quickly...

BTW, I tried to e-mail you at the weekend, and my messages are being returned

Cheers

Jeremy

[Jonathan Merry]

Jeremy,

It would seem my ISP was having troubles over the weekend as I have not received any emails since friday. You can email me at my work address: jonathan@digerati.co.za if you still have troubles with the other email.

BTW, did you manage to d/l the East London track?

[Allen Brown]

I wouldn't like to put anyone off buying the Macintosh Black Book. The results are probably very good (I have few other sources so I can't tell), it's just the chassis number identifications that give me cause for concern.

Overall, it's a very impressive piece of research.

It's also a limited edition and Paul Sheldon is unlikely to republish once he sells the copies he has.

If it's a subject that interests you, then get one while you can!

Allen

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
As well as the coverage in the original Volumes 7-10 and then the addenda, Paul Sheldon published Peter Macintosh's "Record of South African Formula 1 Racing" in 1999.

My only slight gripe with this book (apart from the binding!) is the very brief paragraph on sources which just says "the vast majority of the information waa gathered from personal observation at race meetings or from race programmes and bulletins. The journalists of the time who contributed to the various motor magazines of the time deserve a big thank you".

None of these magazines are mentioned, despite chassis numbers being quoted for 95% of the cars over this 16-season 200-odd-race period. So how confidently can I trust these identifications? I'm sure Macintosh isn't guessing but I'd love to know where his knowledge comes from.

Allen

Peter Macintosh suddenly passed away in February of this year. According to him, he received all the official results, entry lists, etc. from all the circuits all over South Africa. After each event they sent him him all this data.

Macintosh was one of the top motor racing historians/statisticians in South Africa and kept meticulous records on almost every motor race that were ever held in ZA. He was also an official timekeeper at many races and was befriended with several of the international F1 fraternity. Men like Rob Walker, Graham Hill, etc, etc.

The issue with regards to chassis numbers is still unclear, though. I never had the time to ask him about this...The sources were definately not from local motor magazines or bulletins, nor from race programmes, since no reference on chassis numbers are made in any of these. Not sure if the competitors had to supply this information to the different race organisers.

Just prior to his death Peter told me that Sheldon was interested in perhaps publishing results of all the major South African races from the early 1930's to 1959. This will go for the birds now. From a local perspective it would have been of great interest, since very little was recorded thus far on this period of South African motor racing.

With regards to an earlier question in this thread on Rauten Hartman.

His name is also given as JOHAN RAUTEN HARTMAN in some race programmes.

[humphries]

H

Thankfully the birds have not benefitted.

The Peter Macintosh record of South African races 1930-1959 have already been formatted by Paul Sheldon. Peter Mac must have put in countless hours to have compiled such a comprehensive record and all in his own hand, neatly printed! Fortunately Peter has opened the door for the inclusion of handicap and F.Libre races in the FIR, so hopefully all those British and Irish pre-war races will also be included in future publications along with F.Libre races held worldwide.

John

[Vitesse2]

Aha! Going O/T, but ....

John: do you know whether the late 30s handicap races like the SAGP and the Rand and Grosvenor GPs were run on individual or class handicaps?

[David McKinney]

Most were on individual handicaps (some of which I have note of)
Can't be sure of all, off the top of my head

[Vitesse2]

I thought that might be the case, David - ISTR reading somewhere that Ebby was involved in at least some of the South African races, which would indicate individual handicapping was the rule.

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by humphries
H

Thankfully the birds have not benefitted.

The Peter Macintosh record of South African races 1930-1959 have already been formatted by Paul Sheldon. Peter Mac must have put in countless hours to have compiled such a comprehensive record and all in his own hand, neatly printed! Fortunately Peter has opened the door for the inclusion of handicap and F.Libre races in the FIR, so hopefully all those British and Irish pre-war races will also be included in future publications along with F.Libre races held worldwide.

John

John

This is most interesting what you just wrote here. Peter told me in December 2003 that he sent all the race results to Sheldon, but apparently was still waiting for a definate reply from Paul. Since Peter's death, his wife, again raised this issue with Sheldon, but received no word from him with regards to him receiving the results or whether it will eventually appear in book form. I last spoke to Mrs. Macintosh about two months ago, so perhaps she received word from Paul Sheldon during this time. I shall check on this...

From a South African point of view it will be fantastic to have the results in detail. Pre WW2 we had about 35 races of major interest out here and for the period 1948-1959, in the region of about 90 major races. That is according to my own statistics, much of which came via Peter Mac.

Seeing these results in book form, will surely be a most fitting tribute to the dedicated work done by my ever helpful, kind and gentle compatriot.

I can confirm that races were based on individual handicaps, but can't find exact details on how these handicaps were allocated. All my old programmes from this period show the handicap time of each driver for the race. Old reports that I have read over the years, mentioned that drivers were sometimes very unhappy with their times. At the 1st South African GP there was already controversy in this regard.

[humphries]

H.

I've just had a look at the last checklist I had from Paul dated June, 2003. There are only 17 races listed for South Africa pre-war, beginning in 1934 with the I Kimberley 100 and I Border 100, which was apparently also the I South African GP. Whether Paul has pruned a few I would not know.

From 1948-1959, there are 81 races listed but that includes some races held in Rhodesia ( Zim ) and the Portuguese Colonies ( Angola and Mozambique ).

Please remember that I am not privy to any correspondence between Paul and Peter. All I know is that Paul was very impressed by Peter's stats.

I'm pleased to say I can add a few extra races to the post-war list as Sam Tingle photocopied his scrap books and sent them to me.

Paul is a very private person and very busy but I'll see if I can find out the state of play.

John

[cedricselzer]

Jonathan,
"Sun on the Grid" by Ken Stewart has a wealth of infomation in it. Chaters have copies. A great friend of mine Jannie van Aswegan is a South African motor racing historian. If you would like to know specific infomation I will pass it on to him.

[Hieronymus]

John

Thank you so much. We are a bit off the topic here - think this discussion would fit better in at the thread I started several months ago on SOUTH AFRICAN DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP RESULTS 1953-1964. No interest there, though.

Peter Mac was very excited about the prospects of Paul Sheldon publishing the SA results for the period 1930-1959. Knowing the time and effort that went into compiling these results and data, it would be a shame if it lands up in a drawer somewhere. Peter Mac was always a man that shared his information for free and at all time. Would really like to see the result of his work in print.

I know that Paul Sheldon is a very busy man. Had the opportunity to be in contact with him before (on an issue not related to South African race stats). It is not suitable of me to contact him with regards to the above, though. That is between him and the Macintosh family. As an enthusiast, I can only wait, with hope, to see what the end product will be.


I count 37 races pre-WW2 in my own files. Starting with the Kimberley 100 on 1 Oct. 1934 and ending with the Seaman Memorial Trophy on 7 Aug. 1939. Events at Brandkop, Grosvenor Park Meetings, Silver Springbok races, Umvoti races, Bluff GP (Durban), Golden City Revival meeting, Golden City Handicap, etc are also amongst them, apart from the SA Grands Prix events, Rand GP, Grosvenor GP. Excluded are events that dates back from 1931 at Rietvlei (Cape Town), races at Noordhoek and Brooklands races from circa. 1932.

From 1948-1959, the recorded events in my files make a total of 87 races. Also included, here and there, are events in Angola and Rhodesia.

If you are interested, I am willing to share this information with you. Perhaps we can cross check on data and add where possible.


By the way, nice to see yet another famous name on TNF. Wellcome, Cedric! I did not see some of your earlier posts on this forum.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Hieronymus
Peter Mac was very excited about the prospects of Paul Sheldon publishing the SA results for the period 1930-1959.

So am I

[quintin cloud]

Originally posted by Jeremy Jackson
R. Anderson was indeed Bob Anderson - he won the 1966 Rhodesian GP in his BT11.

Yep, I have files of the SA F1 races (Info. mostly from Sheldon's black books, but also from old reports). I'll send them on to you chaps, hopefully later to-day or over the weekend.

Cheers

Jeremy

Jeremy, is that the same file that you helped me out with a while back

[Jeremy Jackson]

Originally posted by quintin cloud


Jeremy, is that the same file that you helped me out with a while back

Quintin, yes it would be. That post is coming on 3 years old, and Allen and others have taken some of that data much further and more accurately (in terms of chassis used by Paul Sheldon's orig. data)

[Wakeley]

I have been trawling through the boards and noticed (sorry it's a long time ago) some discussion here about pre-war results. There was a book by Brud Bishop called 'South African Grand Prix' published by Blue Crane, which I have a copy of - published in 1965 that re-stated his research from before the war of races in SA. His original work had been destroyed in a fire in 1940. If anyone wanted info - or photos from pre-war that were in the book, I'd be happy to scan them in and locate them here - or somewhere else for that matter.

[Richard Jenkins]

I couldn't find a better place to put it but thoughts are with Sam Tingle after his grandson was killed whilst serving in Afghanistan.
http://www.news24.co...2079229,00.html

[Hieronymus]

Yes, Richie, sad story. I mentioned it also on the "South African F1 Championship" thread.

The memorial service was held earlier in the week here in Somerset West...where Sam and May Tingle have also settled a couple of years ago. Ross was also a product of the local Boys High School here in my home town.

[Hieronymus]

Richie

Here is a better article with some background info...

http://www.sundaytim....aspx?id=419717