28 replies to this topic

[Prostfan]

I don't know how much you know about professional skiing (here in Austria watching ski races is a good way to spend the F1-off-season).

Over a month ago, Regine Cavagnoud from France died after a collision with a trainer during practice; last weekend a young Swiss ski racer, Silvano Beltrametti, was paralysed by a simple racing accident.

In the last ten years (since 1991) at least 3 ski racers were killed in training or race (Gernot Reinstadler 1991, Ulli Mayer 1994, Regine Cavagnoud 2001), and at least 2 stayed paralysed after accidents (Thomas Fogdoe 1995, Silvano Beltrametti 2001).

This makes me think about safety concerns. F1 in the last 10 years had 2 deaths and no paralysed drivers. It shows how much safety has increased in F1.

Seems to me F1 racing is now really safier than professional ski racing.

[LeTurc]

By your logic , walking in the street is more dangerous then all the sports.

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by Prostfan
This makes me think about safety concerns. F1 in the last 10 years had 2 deaths and no paralysed drivers. It shows how much safety has increased in F1.

I've been a F1 fan since 1999.... and I can count four in the last ten years
(Senna, Ratzenberger, Gislimberti, Beverage)

Lets us not forget spectators. They too can be killed in skiing and motorracing incidents.

Originally posted by LeTurc
By your logic , walking in the street is more dangerous then all the sports.

Yes.
In many sports this is true.

[BRG]

In downhill racing you are travelling at 100kph+, whilst standing on two planks, with no belts or deformable structures to protect you, and on a piste with minimal safety features. Certainly ski racing is more dangerous than F1. On the other hand, as it is run one at a time against the clock, at least you don't have to worry about other skiers punting you off...

[Zoe]

What is typical for the "modern" press of today (especially in Germany) is, that those skiing accidents are taken more or less as granted. Sad, but part of the sport.

A fatal accident in motor sports however calls up all those voices demanding that motor racing is forbidden, yadda yadda yadda.

When Alex Zanardi had his horrific crash on the Lausitzring, the TV broadcast was immediately stopped with the reporter not leavong out the opportunity to prove that motor racing has no place in modern times, and see what it leads to.

I don't usually watch ski racing, but the few times I did and actually watched a race where a big accident happened, I cannot recall the TV broadcast being stopped. And no single report in the newspaper demanding that downhill skiing be forbidden.

O tempore, o mores!

Zoe

[Amadeus]

The Sunday Times had an article a while back that said that statistically the most dangerous sport in the UK is 3 day eventing (horses jumping silly big fences)...

[Shiftin]

Tom Coronel, a Dutch former Formula Nippon driver and champ said once that he wasn't scared to drive a car 300+km/h over a race-track. But the guys he respected so much are the cyclists, like in the "Tour de France". Going downhill 80+km/h on wet slippery roads, tires as thick as a finger. I think I agree with him. They are the lunatics;)

[Williams]

I don't usually watch ski racing, but the few times I did and actually watched a race where a big accident happened, I cannot recall the TV broadcast being stopped. And no single report in the newspaper demanding that downhill skiing be forbidden.

I think there is reason for the difference in attitudes towards deaths in motorsports and deaths in skiing accidents. When a driver is hurt or killed in an accident, there can be many causes, and among them are factors under the control of the team and the technical regulations rather than the driver. When an incident occurs, it is easy to see the driver as sort of a victim of circumstances beyond his control, with the responsibilty often perceived as laying with the team or the regulators of the sport. This often leads to a jump to the conclusion that drivers are being somehow exploited and that in turn leads to calls for changes to the sport or even outright bans.

But when a skier straps on a pair of skis he or she is seen as the master of their own destiny, and to an extent this is very true. The skier is responsible for every inch of their trajectory down a hillside, and they buy and inspect their own equipment. So a bad accident on the part of a skier tends not to result in a lot of finger-pointing the way it does in motorsports.

Fair ? Perhaps, or perhaps not.

[aportinga]

As a long time skier (born in Glenwood Springs/Aspen area), I can concur that it is absolutely a dangerous sport. However what needs to be addressed is the fact that the equation of danger in skiing entails far less variables then that of racing.

For example...tires don't puncture, suspensions don't break and so forth. Of course a binding may release and/or break but this is a very rare case indeed. The simplicity of skiing in the end however places the largest element of danger on the skier alone.

Ever spent an entire day on a mountain only to find that you're last run, you are completely off on timing and balance. Your body is making the proper motions based on the redundancy of skiing for so long. However you mind is processing slower and usually a couple of turns behind. This is do to fatigue and at times a lack of oxygen...all coming down to proper training. Of course this could also be a result of skis that are not suited for the person as well...When rated, Volkl skis were always accompanied by a comment "These skis will take you for a ride if you are not an qualified skier". This is very true indeed!

Where the two (racing & skiing) are parallel is certainly in the element of weather. when rain is prevalent on a circuit you tend to get a few spins. The same can be said when the ice develops on a ski course...which is more a result of weather then wear from prior runs. This is the most prevalent time when a skier is at risk because of the speed in which they travel...which most (including myself) would be terrified at.

Interestingly many F1 drivers ski...MS, Ed Irvine, Berger, Prost and I understand that JV is quite a good skier.

[Zoe]

Williams, that might be a reason. I always put it down to the currently very modern opinion that motor racing is bad for the environment, and therefore all opportunities are taken up to display it in a bad light and ask for it to be forbidden or even more restricted.

It is similar for people collecting old cars; this is often seen as nothing else than environmental pollution and such.

Whatever....

Zoe

[Rediscoveryx]

I remember Gernot Renistadler's accident like it was yesterday - the images of that was more disturbing than any fatal motor racing accident I have ever seen

I also believe that there was another young austrian skier by the name of Peter Wirnsberger (?) (not the one that was succesful in the late eighties, but another younger guy), who had a fatal crash in the mid 90's.

I think the two sports are on the same level of safety - the Regine Cavagnoud tragedy should never be able to happen (by the way, I've not heard anything about the coach that she struck, is he alright?) - and it probably never will happen again. Reinstadler and Maier were pretty freaky accidents, and Tomas Fogdö got paralyzed while practicing at home, not at a official world cup event (I think the same applies for Wirnsberger, though I'm not 100% sure). I've not seen Beltrametti's crash, but it was a damn shame as he was definately going to be a big star in the future, he is 22 if I'm correctly informed.

[dynamite7]

Originally posted by Amadeus
The Sunday Times had an article a while back that said that statistically the most dangerous sport in the UK is 3 day eventing (horses jumping silly big fences)...

That's incredicle, how?!

Based on what everyone has said, skiing is more dangerous.

And that 24h ski race, that's madness, going 100kmh downhill when they're nearly falling asleep that should be banned, that's tremendously dangerous! Those skiers and cyclists are definately lightyears amazing people. To be on scale with that Le Mans would have to go for 4 months.

[RiverRunner]

Maybe on water like this,behind my boat...

[KenC]

Being an avid skiier, I'd have to say skiing is rather more dangerous, partly because there are so many people out there skiing above and beyond their abilities. As for the Cavagnoud tragedy, someone said it wouldn't happen again, and I'd wager it will happen again. The circumstances of having teams doing pre-season testing, with radios set for different frequencies is bound to happen again.

In the last season, besides Cavagnoud, there has been a european male skiier who is paralyzed below the waist from last weekend's GS race in Val d'Isere. And Bill Johnson, Olympic downhill champ was paralyzed at the US Nationals.

I, myself, a skiier for 35 years, had a terrible accident last May at Mammoth Mtn. I was actually following Daron Ralves, World Super-G champ down a slope, only to have some beginner cross my path, forcing me into an avoiding manoeuver only to have a tree branch clip me right below my helmet line. I now have a 4" scar on my scalp! I'm damn lucky not to have suffered anything more severe.

And, being a good friend of the doctor for Kirkwood Mtn at Lake Tahoe, I'd have to say, spend a day watching all the torn up knees come in, from beginner to expert, and you have to wonder if it's worth all the trouble!

As for 3-day eventing, it's incredibly dangerous because a course can be so difficult that as many as half the horses may pass on a jump, potentially throwing their rider. Whenever a rider is thrown the risk of paralysis is very high. Look no further than Christopher Reeve. Further, if a horse were to fall and roll on a rider, the risk of injury and death is high.

[Rediscoveryx]

I think we have to differ between skiing on a public slope with lots of "amateurs" (such as myself ) around and competing on a closed slope, just as we differ between driving to work and racing on a closed circuit.

A downhill skier doesn't have other skiers in his way unless something goes wrong (like in the case of Cavagnoud), just as there's no cars crossing the track during a F1 race.

[palmas]

If you would like to compare danger, then try more similar things:
it is safer to drive F1 than drive on the road!

[Will]

Originally posted by aportinga
When rated, Volkl skis were always accompanied by a comment "These skis will take you for a ride if you are not an qualified skier". This is very true indeed!

Heh, I use Volkl P9 RSL skis and they are reasonably docile in hard pack/piste as well as being very stable at speed despite not being top end racers. They will take you for a ride in moguls though if you don't in the effort!

[aportinga]

Will...

Heh, I use Volkl P9 RSL skis and they are reasonably docile in hard pack/piste as well as being very stable at speed despite not being top end racers. They will take you for a ride in moguls though if you don't in the effort!

The P9 was one of the greats indeed! I worked for Volkl for 2 years and have a few pairs. P20 SLS which I bent nearly from end to end in the moguls. P30 RC which is great for speed but not the greatest on moguls. My favorite however is my Volkl P-19 Vario boards that are 205 in length. They may be old but they're in great shape and make incredible long arcs at huge speeds! Some of my friends have used them and are amayzed that a ski of that nature and that size runs so well.

Unfortunately Volkl is now making alot of price point skis - as opposed to staying strickly in the top end of the spectrum. This is really disapointing to me. I think I may try a Rossi the next time I buy.

By the way - there is a downhill ski thread I started in the Paddock Club...jump in!

[John B]

WHile it's hard to compare them relatively, I thought of posting a similar topic after reading about the ski accident. Bill Johnson, former gold medalist is another to have a bad fall in recent years.

[Jdcasas]

its important to note that MANY more people ski than driving f1 cars.... same goes for walking

[roganconnell]

Having been involved in ski racing for 17 years now (10 years as a competitor and going on 7 now as a coach) I see many similarities in the risks taken by both ski racers and drivers. Many of the accidents that have occured in ski races have led to often radical changes in safety much as they have in F1. While at times the FIS (International Ski Federation) has often been slow to react too. Accidents such as the one involving Cavagnouds death occured in unofficial training where the FIS safety standards are not required to be met. I am often suprised that relatively few catastrophic accidents occur in training given the lack safety standards in many training situations. Where as at least in F1 testing must occur on tracks approved by the FIA.

Unfortunately Beltrametti's accident appears to be a complete failure of standard safety fencing that I have personally seen to be very effective in preventing injuries in major crashes that would have been potentially deadly not to long ago.

Rediscoveryx -

Wirnsberger's accident actually occured during official training for a World Cup Downhill. He crashed and his skis were caught in the fencing and was he nearly torn in half. He died from massive internal injuries. It was one of the most sickening incidents I have ever seen. Beltrametti was definitely a rising star on the world cup and had been 3rd in the Super-G the day prior to his crash.



Unfortunately the inherent risks in ski racing are what gives it it's excitement much as it does in F1 and it is going to be increasingly difficult to balance the risks with the excitement. Unfortunately much of the sparkle has been taken away from this years World Cup do to the incidents involving Cavanoud, Beltrametti and the many others who have been taken out of competition by injury (Including Hermann Maier). At least Bode Miller is providing some excitement for us US fans with his two victories earlier this week.

[Kaiser]

Ski on water man!! water is a much softer go down!!

[Rediscoveryx]

Roganconell:

Are you sure you're not referring to Reinstadler instead of Wirnsberger? I thought he was the one who's skis were caught in the fencing - anyway, that was the incident I referrred to earlier on, I believe it happened at Wengen, which is notoriously long, and it happened in the final part of the slope where the skiers are very tired.

Didn't Wirnsberger hit a tree? It's ofcourse possible that I'm the one mixing things up in my head...

[KenC]

As for netting failure, I believe Bill Johnson's injuries were also due somewhat to netting failure, or perhaps the poor installation of netting. Johnson slid under the netting, but his head caught on the netting, possibly exacerbating his injuries. I think properly installed netting shouldn't have allowed Johnson to slide under the nets, much like Armco, used to allow cars to submarine under, resulting in many bad foot injuries.

[aportinga]

Kaiser

Ski on water man!! water is a much softer go down!!

Drop it fast and strap into a wakeboard - trust me, you'll have a blast!

[roganconnell]

Rediscoveryx -

You may be right that it was Reinstadler and it was right at the end of the Wengen race. It was that accident which resulted in the use of plastic slip skirts on the nets to prevent skis from catching in the nets.

Ken C -

Bill Johnson did slip under the netting which very well could have been a result of improper installation. Usually with the types of nets that Johson went into you will tumble over the top row and the fence will flex or fold absorbing some of the impact then the second or even thrid row of netting will be the one to stop the skier. I personally was at a lower level downhill in the eastern US where the fencing was set up with the wrong side face out. An athlete crashed and slid into the netting. Becaus it was in backwards the nets popped right off the poles with out even slowing him down. Luckily there were only very very small trees behind them that flexed when he hit and the skier walked away with only a few bruises to his face.

[Shepski]

Originally posted by roganconnell
Wirnsberger's accident actually occured during official training for a World Cup Downhill. He crashed and his skis were caught in the fencing and was he nearly torn in half. He died from massive internal injuries. It was one of the most sickening incidents I have ever seen. Beltrametti was definitely a rising star on the world cup and had been 3rd in the Super-G the day prior to his crash.

Having also been involved in the ski industry when I was younger, competitor and a coach of 9 years I have seen many spectacular crashes followed by several broken bones, ripped knees, and or serious concusions.

Don't forget Canadian Brian Stemmle's crash in Kitzbuhl where he caught a tip in the fencing and was almost ripped in half, barely lived only to race again, and be be competitive.

Unfortunately the inherent risks in ski racing are what gives it it's excitement much as it does in F1 and it is going to be increasingly difficult to balance the risks with the excitement. Unfortunately much of the sparkle has been taken away from this years World Cup do to the incidents involving Cavanoud, Beltrametti and the many others who have been taken out of competition by injury (Including Hermann Maier). At least Bode Miller is providing some excitement for us US fans with his two victories earlier this week.

Bode Miller is an exciting racer but is so far on the edge that I fear he might be another casualty this year.

Cheers

[roganconnell]

An interesting article relating to this subject.

http://www.skiracing...T/newsArticles/

[Makarias]

Connections between skiing and motorsports:
-Three countries with excellent results in both: Austria, Finland and Sweden.
-Skiing is very popular among the F1 drivers as mentioned in a previous post. Wasn't Jacques into alpine big time with Pollock as his trainer?
-X-country mega man Gunde Svan raced in rallycross after he finished his skiing career. IIRC he even became European champion in a lower division.
-Other Swedish XC skiers liking rallying: Torgny Mogren, Per Elofsson (owns one of those neat Mitsubishis)
-Carlos Sainz was a promising alpine skier when he was younger.
-Makarias is both a miserable skier and a piss-poor racing driver. His home village Näsviken has brought to the world four time European Pro Stock champion Niclas Andersson and some dude who won Vasaloppet (big annual XC race) a lot of years ago.