33 replies to this topic

[Toyoter]

Do you think Michael Andretti would have fared better in his Formula 1 stint had he been in equipment equal to what Montoya had in his first year at Williams?

Larry Rochelle
Huntington Beach, Calif.

Robin Miller: LARRY: Absolutely. If you read Tim Considine's fine book on the American F1 drivers, you'll see that Michael had some damn good runs under the circumstances (Senna said the car was bad, practice time was reduced, Michael didn't know the tracks like Juan and did almost no testing). Ron Dennis is (idiot) No. 1 in my mind regardless of what year you're talking about so it was pretty much a stacked deck. But don't kid yourself, Andretti in 1993 was as fast and as good as anybody on this planet.

Not sure if anyone else has posted this comment, but I found it rather interesting...

[Ross Stonefeld]

All that stuff doesnt balance out that he lived in AMERICA while racing in Europe. Hell ive probably spent more time overseas trying to persue a racing career than Andretti did

[Toyoter]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
All that stuff doesnt balance out that he lived in AMERICA while racing in Europe. Hell ive probably spent more time overseas trying to persue a racing career than Andretti did

Heh, righto. One has to wonder *why* Andretti didn't do more testing. Certainly it wasn't because McLaren wouldn't let him...?

[RiverRunner]

....and as many have pointed out to you over the years in this argument,Ross,what's the difference between flying from Monaco or doing the Concorde from NY ?

[tedmna]

Originally posted by RiverRunner
....and as many have pointed out to you over the years in this argument,Ross,what's the difference between flying from Monaco or doing the Concorde from NY ?

jet lag?

[Ross Stonefeld]

RiverRunner, ask a mechanic; it means everything. Its about comittment. As professional as those teams are, no one is going to give 100% for someone else who isnt. Andretti should have realised by that point in his career how the driver functioned as a team leader and motivator.

[RiverRunner]

Using that POV Ross it's a wonder that all the F-1 drivers don't live in attached apartments at the factories.
I was a mechanic,Ross,and it was far more important to us that the meat in the seat didn't jack up our ride than where the hell he spent the night.
We were 100% committed too,to putting together a fast.reliable tool.And I've yet to meet any driver in any of the various circuits I worked on that wasn't 100% committed,if they were not they would likely be dead.

[Rob G]

Originally posted by Toyoter


Heh, righto. One has to wonder *why* Andretti didn't do more testing. Certainly it wasn't because McLaren wouldn't let him...?

IIRC, the FIA had abnormally strict testing restrictions that year. Mikey probably did all the testing he was allowed to do.

[tedmna]

Andretti's attitude toward F1 calls to mind an old Firesign Theatre line:

How can you be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all.

[US_F1_FAN]

Oh hogwash. He was in the series wasn't he? Senna **won** in that car. In fact Mika Hakkinen outqualyfied Senna in that 'dog'. Plenty of drivers in cars like the Arrows, the Stewart Ford, a Jordan, heck even Hill in an Arrows have shown MUCH more ability that MA **EVER** did in F1.

If Micheal Andretti is so great how come he doesn't more CART titles...in fact, has he won a title since he left F1? Explain away that.

Robin Miller is the idiot.

[aportinga]

I'd like to be clear that I smirk at Andretti for effectively GIVING UP - QUITTING!

Robin Miller stated that the "Deck was stacked" [against MA]. However I'd argue more so that they Deck stood against McLaren. A very late decision to run with Ford engines over various other customer platforms and an 11th hour signing by Ayrton Senna, forced the team to work enormously fast and hard with very little time to do so. Remember as well that McLaren was effectively on a down turn from total dominance in F1 from 1985 - 1991. Add to the mix that the only thing in the teams mind which stood in their way was Senna's rival - Alain Prost in the Williams that had the year prior with Nigel Mansell, displaced McLaren from the top of F1.

* I do note that Schumacher and the Ford Factory Sponsorship of Benetton was a concern but not as much. McLaren wanted that number 1 spot back from Williams and were aiming for the best on the grid (Williams).

In any case there was little time to develop a competitive team. That being said I think we can assume that all the resources were focused upon Senna - including the development of the car and the support of the team altogether. I am sure that MA was barely even recognized under these conditions which may be largely responsible for his lack of performance.

Two things remain...

1. Regardless of where you live, if one driver of all lives half way around the world - certainly the team is apt to assuming that that driver is not to interested in being a part of that team. Living in Europe is simply part of the equation which makes up a team - whether it has any valuable effect or not. If that team doesn't feel that a driver is not interested they will more then likely fail.

2. MA could have stayed in F1. He (IMO) had the talent to do well - perhaps not a WDC but maybe in time. What we all know is that he more so then any American had the best ability and a great opportunity to succeed - not that year perhaps. But the door had been open and he was in...I highly doubt Bryan Herta will get that far. MA quit...went home and never returned. In my eyes he's a quitter period.

[magic]

i thought michaels's (now ex-) wife made him stay in the usa.

in short his ex made a succesfull f1 career impossible.

[aportinga]

Magic

She (ex-wife) didn't want him to move to Europe. In this case I think MA was a bit dillusional of what exactly F1 was - far more demanding then Indycar. I'd bet that had he stuck around - which would have obviously meant he would have wanted to be in F1, then he probably would have moved to Europe fro the next season and told his wife to hit the road.

I don't remember Prost, Mansell or any other driver from F1 with a wife having such an issue. It just goes to show that the demands (and levels IMO) from each side of the pond are enormously different.

[911]

I've always been under the impression that he wasn't give a fair chance at McLaren (i.e. limited testing & practice time at the race weekend that was introduced that year, and along with many of the messages stated above). Yes, he could have showed more commitment by living there, but I thought under the circumstances he did fairly well in qualifying.

The race results, however, were a different thing. Correct if I'm wrong, but I think he only managed 5 odd laps in the first 3 races (stalling on the grid in Kyalami, wreck w/ Berger in Interlagos lap 1, wreck w/ Vendlinger @ Donington lap 1). So, despite the pressure of not even completing a race (much like JPM earlier this year), I'm sure the pressure from the media was also unbearable due to the much anticipated hype.

I would have liked to have seen Michael in F1 for another year, but the '94 season may have been worse for him since the package wasn't as competitive as it was in '93. Also, I don't feel the comparison between Mika & Michael are valid (but they might be). Didn't Mika log in a lot of miles of testing that year? I'd like to know the testing miles each driver did in '93.

911

[John B]

In 1990-92 Andretti was on top of his game in CART, winning the 1991 title and only losing 1992 because they were developing the new Ford. Since then he hasn't added a second CART title due to a combination of bad luck, equipment, and driver errors. He did very well in 1996, winning 5 races with a Lola-Ford package on Goodyears, then drove Swifts for a couple years. At other times he has had accidents which have been costly in his title bids - in 1995 he probably should have beaten JV for the CART championship. I was expecting him to be more of a factor this year; in fact Da Matta won more in his old seat.

There were strict testing regulations back in 1993. I think on a GP weekend a driver was limited to 47 laps, which is asking a lot for someone to learn a circuit and then match Senna (with 10 years on the tracks) in performance. It was believed that MH had more time in the Mac than MA and AS combined that year. I don't compare MA to JV and JPM because they had significant miles in a contemporary f1 car when they made their debuts. They were also younger and had to establish themselves, as opposed to being a 31 year old millionaire with much CART success.

Interestingly, I think coming in to a 1994 uncompetitive Mac would have been better for him. Less pressure, no Senna, the ability to learn the ropes without high expectations. Of course in reality, he wouldn't have made the move to a mediocre team in the first place. He has stated that he fully expected Mac to have Renault engines in 1993.

[Breadmaster]

Also lets not forget that he was a **** driver and in his first three races managed about 5 laps before punting himself or some other unfortunate off into the kitty litter...

[MarkWRX]

I had a similar discussion with a British F1 fan at the USGP this year. He thought that because I am an American, that I would automatically support Michael Andretti. I don't.

He chose not to relocate to Woking. He could have spent a lot of time with the team, learning the mechanics of the car and getting to know the engineers, the race teams and the test teams. Instead, he treated it like an "arrive and drive" race series, like the Barber series here in the States.

His first several races were an embarresment. He clearly wasn't used to standing starts and I don't think his physical fitness was on the same level of what most F1 drivers of the time was.

If it's true that his (now ex) wife made him stay in the US, then the offer should have been withdrawn, as it is clear that he didn't have the committment necessary to be a successful F1 driver.

Robin Miller was right that Andretti was as fast as anyone, but in a CART car.

Mark

[magic]

just like sir frank after him with zanardi, ron thought ma would whup f1 and make senna look average.

he was preparing himself for a senna-less period after senna offered to drive williams for free in '93.

an equally quick senna teammate would also temper senna's money-demands.

he did it before.
prost was a tool to remove the overpaid lauda, senna was a tool to make alain humble.

[servellen]

Michael Andretti simply was out of his league in F1. Some people cannot accept this and may mention circumstances that were not in his favour, but he didn't have the personality to get through these circumstances and create an opportuinity to show his ability -if he had what it takes anyway.

As we've gone thorugh just countless times before, it's not just pure driving ability over one lap that counts, but the personality and metal attitude and stability and most of all confidence and determination. I personally think Andretti was a crap F1 driver with a vicitim attitude rather than hanging in there and doing what it takes to at least creat an opportuinity.

I just cannot see how ANYONE could consider him a good F1 driver or with much potential

Sorry Michael, nothing personal. Should have practised more, and lost some weight maybe.

[wingsbgone]

Just to clear up one bit of verbage here. In the US, "testing" implies the work done outside of the race weekend, while "practice" is used for the sessions outside the race itself (and possibly qualifying) on race weekends. With that in mind, one of the major issues with MA was that he was not available for all the "testing" that was available before and during the season, presumably due to his not relocating to Europe. That and a few other things hampered his integration and adaptation to the world of F1. I personally feel his father's input may have had a negative effect as well. IIRC, it was Mario also advised Michael to stay in the US. His wife also appeared to be a major distraction, to the point that they eventually divorced. That couldn't have been helpful at the time.....

[aportinga]

wingsbgone

it was Mario also advised Michael to stay in the US

Do we have an official record of this?

[wingsbgone]

What, my word's not good enough??;)

I'll look and see if I've kept the Autosport I recall reading it in. Might have also read it in a RaceFax of the time.

Back in a while with the info, or egg on my face......

[aportinga]

This was just my impression of the matter as well. I argued that the reason why MA was out of touch was likely due to his fathers understanding of F1 in 1993. For which I argued he (Mario) was out of touch and still looked at F1 as though it was 1978.

[RiverRunner]

If you got it outta racefax,it is about as dependable as snow in the Sahara during the summer.
Ol' woody Bond doesn't do too bad for a fatass watching races from his barcalounger in Northridge,but for a guy that's been to about 3 races in the last five years,it's a stretch for him to call himself a "journalist"....
95% of the stuff he 'reports' is rewritten from other sources.
Look,it is no doubt that MA didn't do well at all and if I was him,making the jack he does/did here in the states,I would put up with very little BS from the euro press telling me what to do as well.He went back to what he was good at and said screw F-1 basically.
For some reason the elitists of F-1 just can't deal with someone saying that their chosen series is not all that,but from his stand point, he didn't think it was and therefore will never be forgiven for it.
Whatever the F-1 crowds opinion of him was it sure doesn't show up on his win records here in the best 'racing' series in the world (according to Nigel Roebuck,who has forgotten more about racing than woody will ever know) nor has it affected his bankbook whatsoever.
Bag on Michael all you want (as I do from time to time) but there is no arguing that he is the best American OW racer of his time period.So what if he didn't want to put up with the F-1 deal he was getting at the time.
What bothers me more than his stint in F-1,is that the greatest American 'racers' of this day and age wouldn't even consider an OW ride,let alone an F-1 slot.They are content to get paid millions a year to stay on ovals in overweight slugs called stock cars.
I predict that it will be a decade or more before another american straps on an F-1 ride,if then,and even if one does want to test the F-1 circuit,it is a given that he will be hounded to distraction by the euro press and will undoubtably not be the best american 'racer' available.
F-1 will never crack the american market,nor interest from the racers here as long as the NASCAR mafia is around.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Whats unfortunate is if we get an F3 guy or someone goign inthe juniors in Europe, and he gets an F1 test the world will descend upon him. In effect he'll be representing all american drivers and that might blow his mind. Especially since they'll expect track records on his out lap otherwise "oh americans suck, back to what works"

[RiverRunner]

exactly ross

[Ross Stonefeld]

Unfortunately it looks like Cheever's nephew Antinucci will be the first tester, and he's at best 9th quick out of the 7 drivers that raced in Europe last season.

[RiverRunner]

I had hopes for Gurneys son,but that looks like a pipe dream as well.

[Hendy]

Andretti was not commited and mentally weak. Secondly, that "crap car" was one of the best the McLaren has ever designed. Full stop.

Their engine and active ride was not up to par, but the car handled beautifully. The engines they were getting were a couple of series down on the engine development compared to Benneton.

Hendy

[Ross Stonefeld]

Someone needs to get behind Phil Giebler, he was the freaking Class B Champion in French F3. Otherwise Long is the man of the moment. Hill and Gurney unfortunately are going home. Jeffrey Jones and Richard Antinucci are just dicking around on someone elses money

[John B]

Magic, part of it too was there really wasn't a great young talent boom during that period of F1. The Gang of AP/AS/NM/NP had ruled F1 for years and was starting to phase out. In 1990 a team like Williams was not really thrilled to have a 1-2 punch of Boutsen and Patrese. Then Ferrari offered Berger a huge salary to rejoin them after three years of getting bested by Mansell and then Senna (2 fortunate wins in a McLaren Honda). Williams utter dominated 1992, then changed both drivers for 93 and wound up going with the older test driver Hill to partner Prost.

I have read that Mario was concerned with Mike joining Senna at McLaren with Senna at the top of his game and experienced. Remember, throughout the silly season of 92-93 it was not known that Senna would return to Dennis, remember the offer to drive Williams for free, the CART test fling, a rumored one-off at Indy, etc. Michael may well have believed he was joining McLaren as the #1 with maybe a veteran or Hakkinen as his teammate, possibly with a Renault, obviously a situation which would have been favorable to him.

He has mentioned in interviews that he was quicker than MH in every test they ran together. I'm not sure whether its true or the circumstances they tested in, but it has been mentioned on several occasions.

[John B]

In fact, ***DURING*** the first half of 1993, it wasn't known whether Senna would be showing up on a weekend-to-weekend basis! He took things one race at a time, even while winning and contesting the title. At Imola he spun several times in practice after deciding to fly in hours before, which left Dennis kind of pissed, considering he was paying $1 million a weekend for someone who couldn't decide whether they would show up or not....

[MLC]

The engines they were getting were a couple of series down on the engine development compared to Benneton.

By Silverstone, the Macs had the same spec engine as Benetton plus extra development work from TAG. Michael was good and could have made a career in F1 had he worked at it. But he wasn't a great driver who deserved to be there on talent alone.

The Mac wasn't the best car that year, but it WAS the second best. Other than Williams, only the Benetton was comparible. The car was good enough to win 5 races and Mika proved that MacLaren could produce two competative cars, not just one for Senna.

It was possible for drivers of that era to be quick immediately in F1 without lots of testing miles. In mid-1991, there was some German driver who tested a Jordan and was immediately quicker than the regular drivers. He then started a race on an unfamiliar circuit a couple weeks later and made quite an impression.

Can someone check what other drivers made their debut in 1993? These guys had the same limitations regarding laps allowed during a weekend and they didn't have a team like MacLaren behind them. By my memory...Barrichello, Lehto, Katayama(?), Blundell(?), Hill (2 races in 92), ...

[stevew]

I always thought that one of Michael's big problem was that after all, he's an ANDRETTI.

He knows it and Mario knows it.

If he could have just put his Personal Mirror away for awhile...