20 replies to this topic

[Bruce]

...according to Frank Williams;

Piers (Courage) was very very brave, but very skilful, too. He wasn't as good as Jochen Rindt - whom I personally still regard as the best there has ever been....

An amazing comment when you consider that FW has had Senna, Jacques Villeneuve, Damon Hill, Alain Prost, Nigel Mansell, Nelson Piquet, Alan Jones and Keke Rosberg among others drive for him....

Granted it is just his opinion and god knows these things are hardly quantifiable, but still, when I read it I was a little surprised given FWs experience and the received wisdom on Rindt being that he was very good, but certainly nowhere near "the best", in that, when mentioning the all time greats one usually says something like "Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Villenuve (G) Prost. Senna, and Scdumacher." - give or take a few drivers.

Asked their top 10, how many would include Rindt?

[Ivan]

Bruce,
Rindt is one of my all time favorites as well. Sadly he passed going what he loved. F1's only and hopefully the last posthumous champion.

[Mosquito]

Bruce,

Jochen Rindt was probably most known for his personality, not the easiest person to get along with. He seemed to be very close with his oponent drivers though (which was more typical to the 60's then current days!) such as Stewart, Brabham and Courage.

His racing career and sudden death at Monza were all before my era, so I can only judge by whatever historical material has been left and what has been written about him.

[Bruce]

I, too, started to follow F1 after his death (10 years after - not the group ;) ) and he certainly hove into view for me as "the only posthumous WDC". Unfortunately this dubious "distinction" seems to have overshadowed a quite incredible career. I've read enough about him to form a healthy respect for him, but I was still surprised by FW's statement.

[Mosquito]

Bruce,

Where was this FW quote taking from and what was the context? Some recent interview?

[Bruce]

Actually, it is from the book "Chasing the Title" which by now everybody will know I'm re-reading - so I suppose that the quote could be a little on the old side... Still, even if it were taken in 1971 (and I doubt that) FW still rates JR above Clark, Moss and Fangio - so we can assume that he would rank him above Senna, Prost and Jacques Villeneuve... er, I mean Schumacher...

[Rainstorm]

Bruce,

Interestingly enough, Bernie Ecclestone also said he regards Rindt as the best ever in an old interview with him...

This is just a thought, but those guys (Williams, Ecclestone) are really from 'the old school'. They were both racers (though nothing to write home about, especially in Bernie's case) and the era they come from is different. They were different, F1 was different. So I guess they Rindt for them was what Senna is for the vast majority of the late 80s-through 90s followers.

Just a thought; I don't really know what it was about Rindt that makes men of his era claim him the best.

Rg,

Rainstorm

[Mosquito]

so we can assume that he would rank him above Senna, Prost and Jacques Villeneuve

OTOH: Frank Williams always displayed great respect for Senna and his driving skills. He tried to get Senna in his teams more times then most people know. And then, having Senna's fatal accident early in the season due to a car failure had a very deep impact on FW.

[Ivan]

Bernie was Jochen Rindt's manager for several years, including the year he died.

[The RedBaron]

Bruce, strange that you should mention Jochen Rindt. He was the first driver I ever followed/supported all those years back....he was a real flyer..the real deal.
Then one day it all came to past
You can read about him on
http://www.uic.edu/~wap/Jochen.html http://www.ddavid.co...1/rindt_bio.htm http://www.uic.edu/~...ochen_mail.html

There are many more sites, but you'll probably not me able to read German....however if your French is good then go to this website
http://www.edicom.ch...lote/rindt.html

[bs]

Interesting enough, though I seem to recall Chris Amon beating Rindt in the Tasman series. Obviously Amon would've known the antipodal tracks better and I don't know how their rides compared (or the engine formula, Rindt was using a 49b with a 1.5 liter engine? My memory ain't what it used to be). I may be way off here, but didn't Rindt win the WDC in the Lotus 72's first year? This was a superior car. None of this to denegrate the man's abilities, he was bloody quick. Best ever? Better than Clark, Fangio, Senna et. al? Don't think so.

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"I always wake up at the crack of ice." - Joe E. Lewis



[This message has been edited by bs (edited 04-03-2000).]

[130R]

A good post to point out that every man has his opinion. And those opinions are based on a number of factors. But opinions differ, greatly, even between people we respect -- those people that may influence our own opinion.

Frank and Bernie immediatley give credibility to the notion that Rindt was one of the greats -- some of us already felt the same way and some didn't, though they may rethink their view or research it a little. Anyway, the point is, have respect for other peoples views -- even if they are NOT Frank or Bernie.

[Dennis David]

Try this one on Rindt http://www.ddavid.co.../monaco1970.htm



I did rate him in my top 10 or Hall of Fame but on the Nostalgia Forum you'll find some very strong opinions on Rindt and most tend to rate him behind Clark, Stewart and Surtees not to mention Moss and Fangio. DSJ of course bet his beard that Rindt would never even win a race. Suffice it to say he only really came into his own in 1970 with Lotus which in all likelyhood would have been his last year had he not died. Before then he would show flashes of brilliance but nothing that couldn't be matched by all of the other great drivers of the 60's such as Clark, Surtees, Hill, Gurney, Brabham and Stewart. Such was the caliber of competition.

The man to read up on is Surtees who was called Big John by the Italian Fans.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/



[This message has been edited by Dennis David (edited 04-04-2000).]

[BRG]

I think Dennis has got the truth of it.

In my view (and this was the time that I first really followed F1) Rindt was good but not especially outstanding. I would not class him in the top 10 of drivers, but would put him with people like Surtees, Hunt, Scheckter and Rosberg

His championship was as much due to the brilliance of the Lotus 72 design as to his own efforts, not to mention that Jack Brabham effectively gifted him 2 wins (Monaco and British GPs). After all the 72 was so good that Fittipaldi won the US GP in one after only a handful of F1 races.

I find that Frank Williams is a bit sentimental about his very early drivers, particularly Rindt and Courage, who both sadly died. It would be nice if he showed a bit more sensitivity and support towards his more recent drivers - his behaviour towards valuable human resources like Hill, Villeneuve, Frentzen etc was inexcusable for the manager of people based organisation, which is essentially what any F1 team is. I can never forgive him for destroying Alex Zanardi.

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BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Dennis David]

Don't get me wrong I think that he was a hell of a driver I just thought that until he had the best car he would not always try his best. But give him a car that was the equal of the rest he would have been right there with the best drivers of the day.

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Dennis David]

Just one more note. Read up on Surtees. He could beat anyone at the old Ring including Clark. If I had to pick an underated driver it would be him, he was that good.

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Fast One]

If Frank Williams said that, he is an idiot. Since I am probably the biggest Surtees advocate on this Board, I'll sum up his and Rindt's respective talents with this:

the pinnacle of racing tracks was the Nurburgring (th real one). In 1966, it so happens that Fearless John and Rindt were teammates. At the Ring, Surtees outqualified Rindt by 9.7 seconds! Beat him in the race, too. Surtees is the most underrated driver of his era. Rindt was just an accident waiting to happen. I saw them both race and I will tell you that Rindt was fast as blazes, but Surtees, Clark, Gurney, Stewart, Hill, and Amon were ALL faster by a good margin. Not just faster, but better in every way.

[kenny]

must have been an old FW indervview...a few years ago, he said
'I always thought Jochen Rindt was the fastest guy God placed on this earth, know I know he ain't' (right after Senna's death).
He also said
'Senna was definitly the best driver ever to race for Williams'

[Antti]

Jochen Rindt was actually the guy who got me intrested in F1 in the end of 60's. In hindsight he propably was the kind of guy who had moments of brilliance but also fade-outs. At his best equal to anybody but did not have the consistancy to be among the greats. Sort of like Gilles. I must admit now that his WDC was propably due more to the genius of Colin Chapman than his own. In this thread John Surtees was mentioned - I think his career would have been much more impressive, if his ambition would not have run into direction of winning the WCC for himself, too.

Antti

[Bruce]

Dennis - if DSJ bet his beard that Rindt would never win a race, did he shave it off when Rindt did? Somehow I think not....

[Fast One]

Bruce--

He did indeed!!! And boy, did it cause a sensation!