28 replies to this topic

[alessandro silva]

Recent acquisitions to my sources have put in discussion some beliefs that I held in respect of the nationality of the following drivers:

1) Montier “Père et fils”. I always thought that Charles Montier and his son Ferdinand, builders of Ford-engined specials in the 29/33 period were Belgian. Now I see (from Bellu’s Blue Blood) that the Montier Spèciales are listed as French GP cars and the address of their shop is given in Levalllois-Perret, a Paris suburb.
Is it true?

2) Maurice Monnier. This builder of a Fiat 1100 Spl in 46/47, is more wellknown for a subsequent BMW F2 Special that, built in 1948, was raced until 54. Hodges (Lawrence) gives him as a Belgian. Some French source says that he was French.
Who’s correct?

3) René Berté. (Once also found as Alain Berté). Builder of a F2 Spl. with Opel engine in 1948 and of a F3 500ccc “racer” in the early 50s. Hodges gives him as Belgian. Jolly, in his book on French F3, says that he was a “garagiste” in Lys-Chantilly that I think is in France.
Is that so? And there was an Alain also?

4) Raymond de Saugé Destrez. I always thought that this driver was French (“a French nobleman”). In connection of his acquisition of a Fiat 1100 Spl and a Cisitalia D46 in Italy in 1946, it is said, in a recent excellent book on postwar Italian specials, that he was Belgian.
Is this correct?

Can some of the numerous Belgian TNF friends help me?

[William Hunt]

I also always thought that Montier was Belgian but recently I also read something on a website where he was listed as French. I think it was a mistake, I'm pretty sure he is Belgian (like me).

The French people sometimes dare to consider Belgian French speaking drivers as "French" if they perform really well, if they don't do well then they are considered to be Belgians (typical). That's wat they did to Bertrand Gachot for example. Although one of Bertrands parents was born in France and he was born in Luxemburg, he did have a Belgian nationality and a belgian racing licence but if he raced really well our French neighbours considered him as one of them, when he crashed he suddenly was a Belgian again. And that was in the '90s , not so long ago.

People from northern France are often called Flandriens. The reason for thayt was that a part of Northern France (including Lille or Rijsel) was part of Belgium but given to France after a war, we on the other hand received a couple of small towns from Germany (Verviers). Maybe this added to the confusion wether they were French or Belgian.

Between WW1 & WW2 a lot of Belgians moved to northern France to work over there (one of my uncles did) , there were quite a lot of Belgians living there. Even now there still are a lot of Frenchmen with Flemish names living in the area of Lille. That could also be an explanation.

I'll try and do some research for U Alessandro, but this is no easy topic.

[Vitesse2]

Well, I'm not Belgian, so perhaps I shouldn't even be reading this thread ....

I can however offer a Paris address for the Garage Montier - rue Pierre Charron, Paris.

[William Hunt]

There are other drivers who cause confusion :

Sportscar driver Val Hillebrand for example is a Belgian yet a Dutch magazine said he was Dutch.

Jaguar driver André Lotterer is another example. I always thought and read that he was Belgian but last year people said that he actually has a German passport. I think he was born in Germany but grew up in Belgium or something. Even in th 21st century it can be confusing.

There's also a lot of Dutchmen living in northern Belgium (my grandfather happens to be Dutch, one of my grandmothers Austrian and my dad still has a Dutch passport but I consider myself as a true Belgian, before I was 12 I was officially a Dutchman, that thought makes me quite sick to be honest). Belgium has also close ties with France, our laws have a lot in common and Napoleon had a large influence on the history of Belgium.

These facts easily ad to the confusion.

I'v also seen confusion before with Swiss drivers who sometimes are considered as Italians.
Andrea Chiesa (Fondmetal in '92) and Franco Forini (Osella in '87, almost signed for Ligier in '88) were 100% certain Swiss drivers, yet there are sources who note them as Italian which is wrong.

[Wolf]

An O.T. as a matter of fact, but symptomatic as well... I was looking for some CDs some time ago and went to French Culture Centre (of the French embassy) and to my astonishment saw few Jacques Brel recordings on their list. Of course, I inquired about it and was replied that he was French...

[William Hunt]

Jacques Brel French ! That is a true scandal, he was one of the most famous Belgians ever, surely everyone knows that he is Belgian. Those French are really incredible, if someone is very talented they like to say he has got their nationality !

[dmj]

Actually, a friend of mine works in this French culture centre where Wolf asked for Brel, and she promised to give me a few discarded Georges Simenon's books (another Belgian) so that I can renew my French... I believe they try to promote Francophone culture and French language as a whole, but they should know about Brel anyway...
But all "great" cultures try to assimilate lesser ones - who knows that J.J. Rousseau was a Swiss, when he is so linked with French culture... There is a lot of examples.
But I somehow noticed that French-language people I admire the most (notably Brel, Simenon, and some comics authors) are Belgians... It is honour to have such people in national culture - if I was a French I would probably also pretend they are of my own breed... And I admire Mario Andretti even more than I normally would just because he is born in Croatia, even if then it was Italy then and he has no other links to my country... It is in human nature.

[Boniver]

Montier are not for Belgium , but are France

but Montier race very much in Belgium ,

[Wolf]

Heh, William- didn't Belgian Parliament have a debate whether to ban his last album? Nemo propet in patria , as the Man named Jesus said it; and seeing he wasn't appreciated enough in his homeland, they decided to give him proper home...;)

[William Hunt]

I don't know about that Wolf but about but I can tell U that George Simenon lived in Liège and his house is know a museum.

[William Hunt]

DMJ, I noticed in your profile that U have the same favourite driver as I do : Bernd Rosemeyer ! I also like Mario Andretti a lot but ly all time favourites are Jacky Ickx & Riccardo Patrese. There are a lot of comic artists here though.

Almost all the best quality comic book artists in the world are Belgians (the most famous one is Jean Van Hamme, who writes scenarios) although France has some talent as well, and yes the French sometimes pretend that they have French nationality, good point there.

[Marcor]

Alessandro, I'm back... I've read your questions and I'm sure I can add... wait a minute.

Montier, father and son, were French but drove a lot in Belgium. His Modified Ford was used by him (the father I presume) and by some Belgian drivers in the 20's especially in hill climb races or speed trials (Course de côte de Malchamps, Coupe de la Meuse, Meeting de l'AC Namur-Luxembourg, Journée des records Oostmalle, Coupe Flamand, ...). His Ford Montier was often victorious in the 3-litre class in famous hillclimb as CC de Chanteloup, Gaillon, Les 17 Tournants... But stop for now as I prefer to check my records. I've just found a book about motor history in some French Departments and I remember I've seen the name MONTIER.

Other famous drivers who could be seen as Belgian were: Zehender (started racing in Belgium), José Scaron (born in Belgium but naturalised French after WW1), Bouriano (he finished second at Monaco, first ever GP, 1929), ...

[Boniver]

Charles Montier (F)

Entered a "Montier Speciale" Ford V8 car in the in the Belgian Grand Prix a hope that amateur drivers would show their interest and buy one of his cars to enter the Spa 24h race.

1934: 5 Belgian GP
1935: 3 Orleans GP

[William Hunt]

Your posts are always great Marc, since U & Alessandro are trully "fountains of knowledge" and U always have very reliable sources.

I always thought that Geogres Bouriano was a Belgian, that's what all my sources say so this surprises me a lot. Including some very reliable sources like Rainer Schlegelmilch (from the publisher Konemann). I find this hard to believe. Are U sure U R not confusing him with Guy Bouriat who was French ? I'm not convinced on this one.

I quite like Goffredo Zehender but why did he start his carreer in Belgium , he was after all Italian.

[David McKinney]

He was a student at Liege university at the time

[Boniver]

Berté :

1948 GP du Roussillon - Fr
Rene Berté drive Berté Speciale team Alain Berté

1948 circuit des Remparts - Fr
Alain Berté drive Berté Speciale team Alain Berté

1948 Coupe D’Argent - Fr
René Berté drive Berté Special team René Berté

1949 GP de Brussel - Bel
Alain Berté drive Berté Special team Alain Berté

1949 Coupe D’Argent - Fr
René Berté drive Berté Speciale team René Berté

1950 GP des Frontieres - Bel
René Berté drive Berté Speciale team René Berté

= Rene and Alain Berté racing in France and Belgium

But I have French


= Maurice Monnier – French
= Raymond de Saugé Destrez – French


But have we no French TNF friends ????

[Tony Kaye]

Reference the Montiers,there is a very long, four-part history of the family and their cars in early 1976 editions of 'Le Fanatique de l'Automobile'. It is so detailed that it is highly likely that their origins would be discussed in Part 1. And it should be the last word on the matter since it is written by Georges Montier. Unfortunately, I only have parts 3 and 4.

If anyone would be kind enough to photocopy the first two parts for me I would be most grateful!

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Tony Kaye
Reference the Montiers,there is a very long, four-part history of the family and their cars in early 1976 editions of 'Le Fanatique de l'Automobile'. It is so detailed that it is highly likely that their origins would be discussed in Part 1. And it should be the last word on the matter since it is written by Georges Montier. Unfortunately, I only have parts 3 and 4.

If anyone would be kind enough to photocopy the first two parts for me I would be most grateful!

Tony: The Library at the National Motor Museum at Beaulieu has these issues - they can provide copies by post if required (for a fee, of course!). Alternatively, I shall be going back there early in the new year, so I could copy them for you then ...

PM me if you need more details.

[Marcor]

I'm also interested to know more about the Montier family but here's my contribution...

Here's a text about the Montier family (Charles, Charles and Ferdinand). It is published in French in a book titled La mémoire de l'automobile, 1895-1995, Berry, Poitou, Val de Loire and written by Jean-Luc Ribemon. I did a free translation and I add some records and some remarks.


Montier: like father like son
When Charles Montier was forced to withdraw his entry in the 1933 GP de la Baule, a chapter of the saga of the Montier family cracked. The forfeit announced the imminent end of an adventure which had started 40 years ago when the ancestor built a machine which move with the help of an horse.

The great-father (Charles) worked at Paris in a maintenance and repairing firm and then came back to Richelieu (Department Indre & Loire) where he became blacksmith and decided in 1892 to build his own car with his son Charles. The machine frightened the inhabitants of Richelieu when the car was first shown in public the day of the National holiday (14 July 1895). The Montier succeeded just in time in saving the car and they went back to Paris. Montier Charles, father and son, would build 5 cars until 1900.

Charles (son) , after his military service, worked for the Darracq firm and would come back in Touraine to be the distributor of the Siva cars (at Tours) and from 1912 of Ford. That year he entered a Ford-Montier 6CV in the French GP (*)

Back to Paris (again), Charles was car dealer and racing driver. In 1923 he criticised strongly the ACF after the organiser of the GP at Tours refused his entry for the Touring cars race. He took his revenge at Le Mans finishing the first edition of the famous 24 H race, sharing a Ford Montier Special 2-litre with his brother-in-law Albert Ouriou (who was also the foreman of the team) In 1924 and 1925, the two men were forced to retire in the same race.

Soon, Charles could count on his son Ferdinand to help and to relieve him. More than the Touring cars, Charles was attracted by the racing cars.

Respectively 9th and 10th of the Coupe de la Commission Sportive in 1927, Charles and Ferdinand gained their best results in the Grandes Epreuves during the 1930-1931 seasons, in the Belgian GP (**) at Spa (6th, then 7th). In other races, at La Baule in 1926, the Montier Special finished second of the third edition of the GP behind the Delage of Louis Wagner, after a fifth place in the Rally du Soleil.

The Montier never won a major race, but during their career(s), they competed with Nuvolari, Campari, Birkin, Varzi, Chiron, Divo, Williams, Chiron, Etancelin, Wimille, Dreyfus, Lehoux, Bouriat and some others.

After racing, Charles and Ferdinand went into a Taxi company at Paris, using some Montier Special in "town dress" until WW2.

Retired at Richelieu, Ferdinand Montier was almost 90-year old (just before the release of the book in 1994) and had forgotten nothing of the epic. He remembered well why they'd all stopped in 1935: "It was simply too expensive...".


(*) what about a participation of Montier in the 1912 ACF GP ? Sheldon mentions a Ford #46 entered by Ford & Henri Depasse with no driver and a DNA as result.

(**) GP d'Europe at Spa.


Some records of Charles Montier, Ferdinand Montier and Ford-Montier, Montier-Special,...

Car racing:
Meeting de Laneffe (Belgium), 24 June 1923
1st- Crispin, Ford Montier

GP de Provence (Miramas), 28 March 1926
DNF (final)- Charles Montier, Montier Ford 3 L

GP de la Baule, 28 August 1626
2nd- Charles Montier, Montier Ford

Coupe commission Sportive (Monthléry), 02 July 1927
9- Montier C, Montier Ford 2,6 L n°20
11- Montier F, Montier Ford 2,6 L n°32

GP de Dieppe, 7 July 1929
Entered- Charles and Ferdinand Montier, Montier Special, DNF or DNS

GP de Picardie (Péronne), 18 May 1930
10- Montier F., Montier Speciale Ford sport

GP d'Europe - Belgique (Spa), 20 July 1930
6- Montier C, Montier speciale
DNF- Montier F, Montier speciale

6 H du Meeting des Routes pavées (Marcq-en-Bareuil), 14 September 1930
2nd overall and 1st Racing cars 4 L- Montier C, Ford #13
2nd 4 L sport- Montier F, Ford #12

GP de l'ACF (Pau), 21 September 1930
NC- Montier F, Montier Ford n°30
DNF- Montier C, Montier Ford n°66

GP de Espana (Lasarte), 05 October 1930
8- Montier F, Montier Ford Speciale
DNF- Montier C, Montier Ford Speciale

GP de Casablanca (Anfa), 17 May 1931
9- Montier F, Montier Ford
DNF- Montier C, Montier Ford

GP de Belgique (Spa), 12 July 1931
7- Montier C / Ducolombier, Montier-Ford n°22
DNF- Montier F, Montier-Ford n°20

GP de Dieppe, 26/07/31
10- Montier C Montier Ford n°70
11- Montier F Montier Ford n°72

GP de Picardie (Péronne), 05 June 1932
6- Montier, Montier Ford
7- Montier, Montier Ford

GP de La Baule 17 August 1932
6- Montier, Montier Special Ford

GP de Dieppe, 15 July 1933
Entered- Montier F, Montier

La Baule, 13 August 1933
Entered- Montier F, Montier Speciale

GP de Belgique (Spa), 29 July 1934
5- Montier, Montier-Ford

GP d'Orléans, 26 May 1935
3- Montier, Montier Ford

GP de Lorraine (Seichamps Nancy), 30 June 1935
Entered- Montier, Montier Ford 3.6 L


24 Heures du Mans
1923: Charles Montier / Albert Ourion, Montier Ford 2008 cc #19 (no official results)
1924: Charles Montier / Albert Ouriou, Montier Speciale 1996 cc # 23, DNF
1925: Charles Montier / Albert Ouriou, Montier 2917 cc #17, DNF


Hillclimb and sprint
Dinant meeting (Belgium), 9, 10 and 11 September 1922, including the Falmignoul hillclimb and 1km-speed race at Gozin: 1st twice- Charles Montier, Ford Montier

Mont-Theux, 13 May 1923
2nd- Péty de Thozée, Ford Montier

Gaillon, 07 October 1923
1st Touring 3 L- Charles Montier, Montier Ford

Spa Meeting, 22 June 1924
entered (in racing cars section)
Charles Montier, Ford Montier 4 cyl (95 x 102) 2892 cc
Pety de Thozée (B), Ford Montier 4 cyl (96 x 102) 2953 cc

Argenteuil, 1 March 1925
1st Racing car 3 L- Montier, Montier Ford

Les 17 Tournants, 21 May 1925
1st Racing car 3 L- Montier, Montier Ford #92

Poix, 24 May 1925
1st Racing car 3 L- Montier, Montier Ford

Argenteuil, 07 March 1926
1st Racing car 3 L- Montier, Montier Speciale

Château-Thierry, 11 April 1926
1st Racing car 3 L- Montier, Montier Speciale

Chanteloup, 2 May 1926
1st overall- Montier, Montier Spéciale #71

Toul-Nancy, 16 May 1926 (not a hillclimb race but a town-to-town race)
1st Racing car 5 L- Montier, Montier Spéciale

Fontainebleau, 30 May 1926
1st Racing car 3 L- Montier, Montier Speciale

Poix, 6 June 1926
1st Racing car 3 L- Montier, Montier Speciale

Charles Montier won the Cup of the Automobile Club of the Ile de France (best performer at Chanteloup, Fontainebleau and Compiègne).

Falicon, in January 1927
1st Racing car 3 L- Trouvé, Montier

Clermont, 22 May 1927
1st Racing car 3 L- Montier, Montier Speciale

Meeting de Dieppe, 10 July 1927
1st Racing car 3 L- Montier, Montier Speciale

La Baraque, 17 July 1927
1st Racing car 3 L- Mesples, Montier Speciale

Fontainebleau, 13 May 1928
1st Racing car 3 L- Montier, Montier Speciale

Chanteloup, 24 June 1928
1st Racing car 3 L- Montier, Montier Speciale #52

St-Alban, 15 July 1928
2nd Racing car 1500cc- Mesples, Montier Ford

Argenteuil, 24 March 1929
2nd Racing car 3 L- Montier, Montier Speciale

Chanteloup, 14 April 1929
1st Racing car 3 L- Montier, Montier Speciale
1st Touring car 3 L- Montier, Ford

Champillon, 28 April 1929
1st Racing car 5 L- Ferdinand Montier, Montier Ford

Les Justices, 18 August 1929
1st Racing car 3 L- Mesples, Montier Ford

Croix-Robert (Mont Dore), 25 August 1929
1st Racing car 3 L- Mesples, Montier Ford

Chanteloup, 13 April 1930
1st Racing car 3 L- Ferdinand Montier, Montier Ford

St-Lô, 1931
1- Montier, Montier Ford

[Hans Etzrodt]

Marc,
Thanks to your fine contribution this has developed now into a rather informative and worthwhile thread.

Thank you very much.

The date for the 1927 Falicon hill climb was January 16. (Source: Erwin Tragatsch, Die großen Rennjahre, pg. 65 top left)

[Michael Müller]

Zehender Belgian? Or Italian? I always thought he was Swiss (from Italian speaking Ticino province).

The Monnier car below was offered for sale last year. It was described as "first French F1 car" and reported to be equipped with a 6-cylinder FIAT engine. The radiator grille for me looks more like BMW, and whether the Monnier-FIAT was really a F1 (or Formula B to heat up this discussion once more) or only a voiturette or F2 should be questioned. However, the car is blue, so it should be French, but the photo has been taken recently only, so there is no guarantee that blue was the original colour.

[alessandro silva]

Very interesting, Michael.
I do not know if there were two Monnier chassis, but certainly two different engines were used. The first trace I have found of the Fiat-engined Monnier Spéciale was in connection with a hill-climb in Central France in 46 or 47, now I cannot say when and where (Hans will tell us) won, if I remember correctly, by Rosier. I found the car interesting because it is the only example I know of the use of the lazy 1.5L 6cyl Fiat engine in a racer. The so-called Italian "wizards" could not squeeze much out of it and it was seldom used also in Italian sports-car specials. Monnier entered a couple of circuit races in it during 1947. In 1948 appeared a F2 Monnier-BMW, entered as Monnier-Bristol, one of the many BMW-powered French spls but certainly not one of the fastest. Seldom used until 54 by various drivers, the car apparently ended up in Belgium. It is curious that it still exists and that it is powered by the first engine. As for it being the first French Formula ? car, well.....

I am pretty sure that Zehender was Swiss, though he is today always listed as Italian. If I remember well, his family was connected with the silk industry in Como (next to the Swiss border) and he was based in Italy.

More sources, more confusion! The problem is to find the few good ones. Thank you very much Boniver and Marc, for straightening up my beliefs.

BTW Michael. I found a picture of Rudi Fischer in the SVA!

BTW 2. I found the hill-climb: it was the CC de Bellevue, nr Moulins in 1946.

[Vitesse2]

Mathieson, in the Georgano Encyclopaedia, says Zehender was born in Italy, but doesn't specify where.

[David McKinney]

I've enver been sure. I, too, have read he was born in Italy - of Rumanian parentage. I wonder if that was someone's mistranslation of Romansch (which would tie in with Michael's Switzerland)?

[Michael Müller]

I digged somewhat about Zehender, but he really seems to be a mystery. Is it “Goffredo” or “Geoffredo”? Karl Ludvigsen in “Mercedes-Benz Renn- und Sportwagen” (don’t know the original title) says he was Swiss, Quintin Cloud on his website makes him (sometimes) German, and various others state “Italy” as home country. For some reasons he is fixed in my brain as “Swiss”, but I cannot say why.

About the Monnier: Alessandro, did you know more about the FIAT engine? About the BMW engine, as far I know it was a real BMW engine, but is was named Bristol (they copied the engine based on technical documents which had been confiscated by the British Army in Germany) because the name BMW was too much German in early postwar France. In fact the sales advertisement was from Belgium, it was priced at abt. US$ 40.000 or so, which initially electrified me, but as Alessandro said, the FIAT engine obviously is a lame duck.

Fischer in the SVA - any chance to post it here? If not, please send by e-mail to michael@axos.nl , I will put it to my server for posting then.

[Marcor]

Zehender was born at Reggio in Calabria.

[VDP]

Hi TONY

Can you give me the number you have I ll check during my hollidays, and I ll try to send you a copy , you can always reach me by mail


Robert

By the way Marc I think there was an article in auto retro about Monnier

[Toine]

Originally posted by William Hunt
Jacques Brel French ! That is a true scandal, he was one of the most famous Belgians ever, surely everyone knows that he is Belgian. Those French are really incredible, if someone is very talented they like to say he has got their nationality !

LOL
Even most french people know Brel is belgian:)
I guess this Embassy employee has been fired since, for such a lack of knowledge in french speaking culture lol:)
Also a lot of frenchies say Camille Jenatzy is french LOL, another belgian:)
Once, a lady in an Art Museum in Montreal was sure Belgium was a french region or city LOL
Another time i've heard from a cab driver in Australia that Belgium was in Central Asia LOL

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Toine
Also a lot of frenchies say Camille Jenatzy is french LOL, another belgian:)

Probably because "La Jamais Contente" is (or was) in the museum at Compiegne