58 replies to this topic

[dmj]

Who was the least skilled or simply worst driver ever to become a F1 world champion? I presume no one can win it twice without high level of skills so you can choose only between one time champions. As there were 14 of them and I can post maximum 12 entries per poll I excluded Mario and Jochen, two of them I found most unlikely anyone will vote for... If you want to nominate someone for whom you can't vote, please explain it in thread.

[Mickey]

There are already a couple of threads about it:

"Worst" driver to win a WC

The worst driver to win WDC?

[Rob G]

Originally posted by dmj
I presume no one can win it twice without high level of skills so you can choose only between one time champions.

No one can win it once without a high level of skill. Maybe you should rephrase your question so that someone doesn't tear you a new one. Perhaps "least brilliant"?

[dmj]

I agree with you Rob and I knew there were threads about it, but not a poll. So let's lay it as it is, and see what votes will tell.

[Roger Clark]

Not being wholly in agreement with the motives behind this poll, (but prepared to defend to the death anybody's right to start it), can I have a write-in vote for Jim Clark?

[byrkus]

How can a bad driver finish season on top with WC title?? That makes all of the others 'The Worlds Worst Racing Drivers'... That's contradiction, whoever is WC is the best driver (at least compared to the oposition, if not the entire world...). Therefore, I will not take a vote.

[dmj]

Byrkus,
if someone is worst among the champions it doesn't mean he isn't a great driver, as all of them were. I personally think I couldn't vote myself either, but I started this poll to see what others mean. And I am amazed that Phil Hill has a significant early lead - he is among people on list I admire most.

[No27]

Think Nigel Mansell is the worst of your list. In the car he had anybody could be WC. In other years he just didn't manage.

[f li]

Like Roger, I too want a write-in for J. Clark.

[Chris Bloom]

I have no problems with drivers who beat the rest of the field including their own team mates to become WC.

Chris

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by No27
Think Nigel Mansell is the worst of your list. In the car he had anybody could be WC. In other years he just didn't manage.

Wonder what you've thought of him if that tyre didn't explode in Adelaide... :

[Zawed]

Im not keen on this kind of thing, but on your list I would say the "least brilliant" driver is Mike Hawthorn.

[Bernd]

What drugs are you guys on Jim Clark Worse Driver to Win a WC!!!

...... Words fail me

[Don Capps]

Where are Senna and Schumacher, the bump and thump twins? They share my vote along with Niggle Mansell.....

....although I never cease to be amazed at the popularity of such pointless exercises....

[William Dale Jr]

Just out of curiousity, Roger and f li, for what reasons do you nominate Clark?

[Prostfan]

Definitely James Hunt. Under normal circumstances this guy would have never been WDC.

[Allen Brown]

I would normally vote for Nigel Mansell but I have to remember that he won CART as well, so he can't have been a complete bozo. Rosberg and Jones also ran well in other categories and Mike Hawthorn ran well in sports cars so I have to go with Phil Hill. What else did he ever do?

I'd place Damon Hill second for the same reasons.

Hunt was a megastar. He just was, OK!

Allen

[Marcel Schot]

Originally posted by Don Capps
Where are Senna and Schumacher, the bump and thump twins? They share my vote along with Niggle Mansell.....

Don, this is just your grudge against modern day drivers, right? You don't honestly believe these two lack in talent. Sportsmanship may have lacked at times, but you can't deny that these guys do know how to drive a car as fast as possible.

My vote goes to Damon Hill by the way. Not that he's a bad driver, but his achievements were much helped by the quality of his Williams. Given his performances at Arrows and Jordan, I'm quite unsure whether he would have been able to battle for the championship in a car other than the Williams.

[dmj]

I have to go with Phil Hill. What else did he ever do?

Almost everything. He was one of best sportscars drivers of all times...

[PDA]

"Mike Hawthorn ran well in sports cars so I have to go with Phil Hill. What else did he ever do? ".

Name Hawthorns victories in Sports I can only think off hand of teh 55 Le Mans, which Jag won only after MB withdrew. P Hill won Le Mans 3 or 4 times, plus many others. DOn;t write such nonsense.

[kober]

dmj: nice avatar
probably my first post in TNF

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Marcel Schot
Don, this is just your grudge against modern day drivers, right? You don't honestly believe these two lack in talent. Sportsmanship may have lacked at times, but you can't deny that these guys do know how to drive a car as fast as possible.

No, this is my grudge against two (three if you include Nigel Mansell) people that I simply don't respect very much. There are many "modern" drivers I do respect: The Jeffs -- Gordon and Burton; Alex Zanardi; the Dales -- Earnhardt and Jarrett; Jacques Villeneuve; Bill Elliott; the Andretti clan -- Mario, Michael, and John; Kyle Petty; the Argetsingers -- Mike and Pete; Jimmy Vasser; Riccardo Patrese; Mark Martin; Juan Montoya; Keke Rosberg; Alan Kulwicki; plus many others....

Again, the use of the word "worst" is probably more appropriate for some other place than here. Even Bumper and Thumper and Snivel had talent to go fast despite their lack of social graces. Like many, I can go through the list and show you a good driver with much to offer and to admire. In particular, I once again think that far too many seem to think that the "best" drivers are found only in "F1" and only since 1950....

To me Phil Hill is one of the true greats: he had talent galore and raced -- successfully -- in a wide variety of cars and types of events and whatever the circumstances of that 1961 season, did earn the Championship. Hill won Le Mans three times -- 1958, 1961 & 1962 -- and many sports car races on all sides of the Atlantic (and some on the Pacific...).

[Megatron]

I hate these polls. They almost always end up bad...

Anyway, I would agree in that todays drivers (some) could run in the 1950s. People still have blood and bone in them today just like the greats of the past. There wasn't a vitiman that was taken then to make them any more super than todays drivers.

Anyway, IF I have to vote, I'd go for the almost case that was Eddie Irvine in 1999...

[Gert]

And I vote for M. Schumacher.

[f li]

I have decided to change my vote: I think the correct response is A.C.B. Chapman. Failed to qualify in the only race in which he tried to drive. Won Seven World Championships! Guess that make him clearly the worst driver to win a World Championship!

[Megatron]

If your taking carowners, remember that Bernie owned the Brabham team during two of its world championships.

[Mickey]

Originally posted by Don Capps
Even Bumper and Thumper and Snivel had talent to go fast despite their lack of social graces.

Nice names!!

[Megatron]

But hey, Chapman qualified fifth...

[f li]

Megatron,

But he didn't even finish one race!

Note that DMJ's question did not reference Driver's World Championship - so I guess Constructor's World Championship qualifies.

Once again, Don will award me the Gordon Murray "Weasel" award! --- I prefer to consider it a great honor - seeing that by profession I am not a lawyer!


Regarding Clark, I think both Roger and I find "worst of the best" idiotic at best. And I know that I feel J. Clark was the "best of the best". Doubt that Roger would disagree.

[dmj]

kober: nice avatar, too ;)

[dmj]

Sorry for all hard feelings this poll helped to raise, but I still seem that results will be interesting to see how some drivers are regarded and remembered. Mike Hawthorn-Phil Hill debate is a good example. By almost every account Hill should be considered as "better" driver than Hawthorn, but opinions in poll show different thinking or memories of TNF members, and it is an interesting fact... Wait a moment, these quotation marks seem like a good idea...

[Brian O Flaherty]

Well I'm glad most agree on the outstanding candidate Good old Damon. Interesting that Keke is 2nd (as I write). I think he had to do the least to win his title as the 2 leading contenders had tragic seasons that year and with only 1 win that season, can count himself as probably the luckiest to win it. Especially since most of his rivals were in faster but seriously unreliable machinery.

[Don Capps]

Well, at least no one has "voted" for John Surtees as of yet, so there is still at least a thread of decency among some of those out there who actually stooped to vote in this "poll."

[Chris Bloom]

Originally posted by Brian O Flaherty
Well I'm glad most agree on the outstanding candidate Good old Damon. Interesting that Keke is 2nd (as I write). I think he had to do the least to win his title as the 2 leading contenders had tragic seasons that year and with only 1 win that season, can count himself as probably the luckiest to win it. Especially since most of his rivals were in faster but seriously unreliable machinery.

I think Keke's title is one of the more remarkable since he was a couple hundred horsepower down on the Ferrari, Brabham-BMW and Renault yet drove with his head and managed to not only notch up enough points to win the championship but several times during the season he was simply the fastest driver on the track. Pole position at Brands Hatch, second to Lauda despite driving the old FW07 at Long Beach and then beating the Renaults at home on a circuit that historically suited them at Dijon.

Damon Hill was robbed of the title in 1994 when Shumacher drove him off the road after Damon forced him into an error. Lets just remember the irregularities that surrounded Schumacher and the Benetton team that year! Damon won the championship despite having to race, yes race his team mate in identical cars! Oh it would have been so much easier for him if Jacques had been ordered to move over every time Damon was behind him wouldn't it? I think Damon proved his worth as champion by not only dominating the 1997 Hungarian GP in an Arrows but also providing Jordan with it's first win.

Chris

[Chris Bloom]

Originally posted by Don Capps
Well, at least no one has "voted" for John Surtees as of yet, so there is still at least a thread of decency among some of those out there who actually stooped to vote in this "poll."

If somebody could add either Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost or Micheal Schumacher to the list I will then cast my vote.

Chris

[rdrcr]

I wouldn't even consider voting in this poll... Every driver who attained the WDC crown has one way or another found his way there. As Richard Petty once said, "I'd rather be lucky than fast".

Every WDC has proven that he was the best racer or the luckiest driver for that season, and no one can take that away.

On another note and as a point of contention Don, I respect most of your views on racing but what sort of respect can be garnered from the driving tactics of Dale Earnhardt? This racer, a drafting specialist second to none, would have to resort to the deplorable on-track methods of passing is beyond me. You dislike Senna, but have respect for Earnhardt.... You have me scratching my head on that one.

Regards -

Richard

[Ross Stonefeld]

I dont know Mr Capps' reason, but I could see the logic behind liking one and not the other. What seperates good hard racing and bad hard racing, for me, i reaction and intent of it. Ruffing someone up to get by is okay, taking them out is not. Taking responsibility for it makes it better (But not neccessarily excusable), making excuses and blaming everyone makes you a bad guy.

[rdrcr]

No doubt... While I understand the disliking the arrogance of Senna, his mind games and tactics on and of track and the probable disdain for his attitude... But to me, Earnhardt was conspicuously blatant in his racing methodology. His nickname, The Intimidator" is perfect for his bulling style of driving.

If you have competitors running you down, and there is a much slower driver that refuses to get out of the way, a "tap" at an opportune moment to let the driver know he's in the way is one thing, it's something altogether different when it's a true competitor vying for position. The pursuing driver (in cars with enclosed bodywork) have a decided advantage by putting the leading driver's effort in jeopardy just by punting him off the track. In recent years, the track stewards and race directors have been levying penalties and fines for such behavior. Overtaking should be fought for clean and fair, racing incidents aside of course...

When I'm off the pace, I don't impede others who are fighting for the lead. As I have found, when the roles are reversed, the favor is extended to me more often than not.

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by PDA
"Mike Hawthorn ran well in sports cars so I have to go with Phil Hill. What else did he ever do? ".

Name Hawthorns victories in Sports I can only think off hand of teh 55 Le Mans, which Jag won only after MB withdrew. P Hill won Le Mans 3 or 4 times, plus many others. DOn;t write such nonsense.

It's true. I talked nonsense. But even I am surprised what nonsense it was.

Phil Hill raced in 60 major sports racing events in a career that lasted from 1953 to 1967, winning 14 including three Sebrings and three Le Mans. According to Janos Wimpffen's "standard points" sports racing ratings, Hill was 4th= in 1956, 8th in 1957, a close second to Gendebien in 1958, equal top with Gendebien in 1959, 4th= in 1960, 7th in 1961, 2nd in 1962 (Gendebien's 5th successive "title"). He is 13th in the all-time listing by races won and 25th by "points" scored.

Mike Hawthorn, on the other hand, had 20 major races from 1953 to 1958 and won just three although two of those were Sebring and Le Mans in 1955. He was 4th in Janos's ratings in 1955, nowhere in 1956, 4th in 1957 and 10th in 1958. He is 130th in the all-time list. It is worth noting he was fastest qualifier five times and set fastest lap seven times in his 20 races - so he was pretty quick.

So there's no competition - Hill was one of the greats. PDA and dmj are right to chastise me - I know (knew) nothing.

So, the true sportsman that I am, I'll change the reason I gave for picking Hill. Hawthorn died violently and stupidly at his peak. And we all know that's what the real stars do. Hill retired quietly and, last I heard, led a happy and contented life. Not exactly James Dean, is it? So I pick Hill because he's still alive and therefore shows no star quality.

Yours absurdly

Allen

[Bernd]

I suspected that f li & Roger were taking the piss so to speak but I was tired and cranky at the time. I agree with the Colonel that these poles are negative and pointless and belong in the Zoo, er.. sorry Readers Comments, which is why I did not vote. If I were to give my opinion on who was the least talented of the extremely talented bunch of World Champions I would have to say Damon Hill. Damon is a bloody quick driver but just lacks a little racing savvy in my book.

BTW If anyone does vote for FJ they are a complete idiot in my book.

[bobbo]

John Surtees . . .

Now THERE is another highly-underrated driver!! I sorta recall that he did wonders with the Lola Climax F1, several seconds, a (non-championship) win, WC with Ferrari under less than pleasant circumstances, not to mention it occurring in the middle of Jimmy Clark's heyday, a d**n good sports car pilot, lots of other things going for him (not including his own Surtees F1 ). Personally, I don't think he belongs in THIS poll!

Bobbo

[dmj]

Allen Brown wrote:

Hawthorn died violently and stupidly at his peak. And we all know that's what the real stars do. Hill retired quietly and, last I heard, led a happy and contented life. Not exactly James Dean, is it? So I pick Hill because he's still alive and therefore shows no star quality.

This is exactly one of reasons why I dislike Hawthorn. He retired immediately after his WDC, which wasn't a sportsman's move. I understand these were dangerous times and Hawthorn probably achieved his personal goal, but he had lot to prove still. We all know there were faster drivers in 1958, but Mike scored most points and it is only fair that he won WDC (even if it was with help of team orders, what most of us can accept, but still dislike). If he sweeped the opposition I wouldn't see anything controversial in his decision but, being a lucky winner, he had to try defending his title, at least in these times when sportsmanship was important, as most of TNF members think...
Then he lost his life in most stupid way. I never thought well of racers who can't control themselves and who must "race" in normal traffic. Mike killed only himself, but he also could cause an accident with some less skilled normal driver. Racing is for circuits and closed stages and I dislike anyone who does it on public road.
And I dislike his Le Mans win, too. I know it is debatable was he responsible for Levegh accident or not, but he was certainly involved - and benefit from it, after Mercedes withdraval.
So if there is a world champion I don't like (and not respect a lot, even if I'm sure he was a great racing driver all through his career), it is Mike Hawthorn.

[Don Capps]

This is much more to the Hawthorn issue than you realize dmj. Although Chris Nixon lays it out pretty well in his book on Hawthorn and Collins, the accident may have been the result of the hand throttle which Hawthorn had on his Jaguar; plus, Hawthorn's health was not that good. He was suffering from kidney disease which could have led to his death within a relatively short time according to some sources.

[dmj]

Don,

I know about hand throttle theory but I still believe he would survive or have no accident if he didn't try to race with Rob Walker that day, if he drove with normal, acceptable speed.
Kidney disease could put another light on issue of his early retirement, but it could be just a legend as well...
Thanks for changing title of poll.

[Roger Clark]

The circumstances of Mike Hawthorn's death have no impact on my admiration for him as a racing driver. I have never heard a suggestion that his kidney disease was not real. Another reason for his retirement was the death of his closest friend right in front of him. A lesser man would have stopped racing immediately.

His fatal accident may have been his fault but it was part of his character which made him the man he was.

Throughout his career Hawthorn sufferred criticism, much of it unjustified. This included avoidance of military service and driving for a foreign team as well as the causes of the Le Mans accident. In general, these criticisms were totally unjustified, and reflected the attitude of the British press, which unfortunately isn't much different today. His ability to rise above such comments was remarkable. As a racing driver, he had his off-days, but they were usually connected with his illness. From 1953 to his retirement he was certainly one of the top four or five drivers in Grand Prix racing. I hope we can all recognise that and admire him for what he was and what he achieved.

[Marcor]

Minoia (but he was just European champion) in 1931, even if he beat drivers as Campari, Chiron, Varzi, Nuvolari, "Williams", Borzacchini, ... The strange score system only gave him the title.

[stevew]

Originally posted by Megatron
But hey, Chapman qualified fifth...

Not quite true...

According to David Hayhoe's "Grand Prix Data Book 1997" and Mike Lang's "Grand Prix! Volume 1 1950-1965", Chapman's qualifying time was actually set by Harry Schell.

As far as the "worst" WDC goes, there aren't any. They're all worthy champions because they won the title. We can discuss all of the rules, luck, the point system and all of the other parameters forever, but when it comes right down to it, at the start of every season, everybody knows the rules that are in place. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

[BRG]

I decline to vote in this poll, but, of the list given, the driver that I respect the least would be Alan Jones who I never considered had the finesse or flair that the real F1 champions display. Of course , that may just be a prejudice arising from when he creamed Piquet into the wall so blatantly and cynically in Canada. But Jones's lack of mechanical sympathy did prove a boon to Williams in that they had to manage to engineer a car that even he couldn't break. As a result, they built strong reliable cars for many years after that also proved to be Rosberg and Mansell-proof.

However, AJ won races and a WDC so I am reluctant to call him "worst".

[fines]

Huh, what's that? RC trying to invade TNF? Blimey, can't I leave you guys alone for just a week or so?

[effone2k]

Originally posted by Bernd
What drugs are you guys on Jim Clark Worse Driver to Win a WC!!!

...... Words fail me

Thank you!!! My sentiments exactly for a driver that is recognized as one of the all time greats!!