17 replies to this topic

[OssieFan]

G'day, since everyone had a debate about the Schu and DC crash I'm going to start another one. The subject is the two crashes including Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost in Japan 1989 and 1990.

I was watching the 89 crash on the weekend and personally I reckon it was Prost who was most at blame. Senna was well down the inside, however he had little room, but then that was Senna. Prost said before the race if Ayrton was going to try a move like that he'd close the door on him. Now a year later a similar incident took place. Senna said he would wouldn't back away if Prost closed the gap so they took each other out.

Is this just two drivers being racing drivers or is it something else? What is you opinion?

Ossiefan

[kenny]

I think Prost is the one who started this little thing..'cant win it on the track, take him off'
together with the politics of Balestre and prost, 1990 was the result of Senna's anger towards to 2 french.
This doesnt mean Senna did a good thing,(at all) but what would you have done in his shoes???
Do you think it fair how Balestre treated Senna the year before?

[OssieFan]

I think Balestre over reacted. Didn't they disqualify Senna from the race because a) dangerous driving and b)because he took the escape road to get back onto the track? I think that's too much because it wasn't dangerous driving it was an overtaking move. Something that sticks with me is Senna saying in an interview (can't remember the exact wording) "we are competing....we are racing drivers, if you no longer go for a gap, you are no longer a racing driver" that says it all really.

[kenny]

I also remeber a interview with Balestre in dec. 1997. When he admitted he disq. Senna on purpose to help Prost...

well...all too late afcourse...the history books are already filled in...grmbl..

[Bruce]

I have always figured it was prost who started it... Senna had his nose up in front of Prost, and if you look at the shot from above, you will see that when Prost turns in, he is actually turning in too early to take the apex properly - so there was seemingly one idea behind the turn...

I was surprised to read a very fatuous comment by Jackie Stewart recently regarding this incident - I should point out the JS is a guy I respect - but I don't know where he came up with this... "It doesn't matter whether Alain closed the door or not, the fact remains that Ayrton allowed himself to be put at someone else's mercy..."

Huh? How could Senna have passed Prost WITHOUT being "at his mercy" - levitated the car past? taken a short cut across the infield? Got out of the car and said "pretty please" ?

You are at the competing drivers mercy every time you put your car beside his on the track.

[Sudsbouy]

If you want to really understand these events, you need to look at each of the seasons preceding the Japanese GP. My impression is Prost felt betrayed by Senna and that Senna had taken advantage of his sense of fair play (i.e. Senna was a harder nut than Prost). Prost was tired of conceding in the mano-a-manos they had during the season.

In the second incident, Senna was ticked off about not being able to choose the side of the grid the pole man lined up on. One side was measurably better than the other, but they wouldn't let him choose. He made the decision before the race that if Prost beat him into the first corner, he would take him out. Subsequent review of telemetry showed that Senna never let up on the gas for the corner, he just pushed Prost off.

Thank you.

[Peeko]

Suzuka '89, Prost at fault(But what a freaking race that was. That has to be one of the best races I have ever seen, up until the clash.)

Suzuka '90, Senna's fault.

Both laying the foundation for upcoming events...

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Ron Dennis is a Wuss

[whiplash]

the debacle regarding pole at suzuka 90 was also balestre's doing. anyone would have expected pole to be on the outside, cleaner line. senna got pole of course, and then it switched overnight (or am i wrong?) to the inside, dusty line. senna was understandably incensed, what with this and all the blustering by balestre since 89 to ban senna for the whole 90 season. that in itself was a joke.
although the drivers started their feud, that scenario shows how ugly things can get when those that are meant to be impartial get less discreet about their favouritism.

[Mosquito]

Subsequent review of telemetry showed that Senna never let up on the gas for the corner, he just pushed Prost off.

And he has once admitted in an interview (dunno where, shuld be easy(?) to be found) that he indeed did it on purpose.
I've always found this one of his darker sides. But then again: I could hate Prost just as much (and I DID!!!) so I can understand it a just a eeny teeny bit.
Which allows me also to understand the current MS haters: I rated Prost as one of THE best drivers and at the same time hated his guts and cried whenever he won. (and tha was waaayyyyy! to often) And I called him bad names whenever he chicken shitted in the rain!!!

I believe one of the arguments in the '89 incident was that Senna used the pit-entry lane to get besides Prost. I don;t recall if that was deemed an illegal move or not, but it certainly played a role at the time.

[This message has been edited by Mosquito (edited 04-06-2000).]

[Simioni]

89- If Mr. Prost had decided that he was no longer going to give room, he should have done that before Senna got alongside. Once Senna was there he had no right to close the door. By Prost´s onboard camera, you can see him looking at his mirrors instead of the chicane´s apex and turning in meters before the normal racing line. Nuff said.

90- The marshals agree before qualifying that pole position would be set in the outside where the track is cleaner. Knowing that the start would probably define the race, Senna gives everything to get that pole. Come race day however and Ballestre says that pole will be on the dirty inside, neglecting the pole-sitter earned advantage. It doesn´t mean that Senna had the right to do what he did, but it´s fair to say that had Ballestre not broken the agreement, not to mention Prost actions and Senna´s subsequent absurd punishment the previous year, that sad ending would have not taken place.

[Mosquito]

>>Ballestre says that pole will be on the dirty inside<<
Didn't he bring it as doing the pole-sitter a favor? Taking the inside line to the first corner?

I should drink less; My memory can get so blurred at times

[mtl'78]

Neither was an angel. It depends on who you supported going into the whole thing. Senna's temper had a lot to do with those "accidents". In 89, Prost tried to play chicken with Ayrton, and that was that. '90 was embarassing and gauche, very unlike both drivers. I watched it again recently and I couldn't help but think that ths was so BENEATH them.

[Simioni]

Mosquito, not really. The first corner was quite a bit away from the start, so starting in the inside wasn´t an advantage if you take into account the different grip levels. The inside had so much dirt that if compared with the outside, it looked like two different pieces of road.

[edi malinaric]

The regulations at the time specified that pole man would start on the corner side of the track. If the first corner was a left hander you were on the left and vice versa. Balestre had no authority to change the rule unilaterally by himself - he was probably being brow beaten by a worried AS.

Personally, I suspect Senna had just realised that being on pole wasn't the best thing going and must have wondered whether AP had really been trying for pole all those races.

They changed the rule for the next season so that pole position was on the best side of the track - and all of a sudden there was this little French driver taking pole positions! Mmmm.

Then the FIA reverted to the original system.

[Simioni]

edi,

I´m not sure about rulings, but by common sense the pole position was always set where the track had more rubber on, that not being the case only on tracks where the first corner is close (Monaco, Spa). Suzuka was always the only exception, that´s why there was a pleed to change it before Suzuka qualifying, and believe it or not it was indeed Ballestre who gave the order not to change it after an agreement had been made. Considering that, I find hard to believe that Prost wasnt´t trying for poles until then. He was definetly not trying any harder after such rule was imposed (if it was imposed), since he got no poles in 1991.

[jack and gilles]

Also remember that there was some background to the 1989 "incident". Earlier in the season (I believe it was Imola - perhaps someone else can add more detail here) the two had an agreement that whoever led into the first corner would not be passed for three or four laps. For whatever reason, the was a restart to the race and, on the restart, Prost led. Within a few corners Senna passed Prost and when they discussed the matter after the race Senna told Prost that he only thought their agreement applied to the first start. Prost was unimpressed!!

I'm sure there was a complete article on this on Atlas within the last 12 - 18 months, but I couldn't find it today. Anyone else remember it?

[911]

1989: Clearly Prost moved over on Senna. Senna was disqualified, I believe, for being push started after the collision. What a shame, too, because he came back to win that race (only to be DQ'ed later).

1990: Clearly Senna was at fault. However, he was quite upset with Balestre for switching the Pole Position's grid location overnight. That was BS. Senna knew he was getting attacked and I'm sure he felt that Balestre was going to make sure that Alain won the WC.

Even after Senna had won his last title in '91, he said in press conference at Suzuka that 1990 was a sad championship due to the politics. He added that the 1990 season was an extension of the 1989 season (in terms of political interference).

The Senna vs Prost races were classic. They were two great drivers competing in the same era. For you basketball fans, it's like Magic Johnson vs Larry Bird in the 80s -> it doesn't get any better, IMO.

911

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"Driving fast does not necessarily make you a fast driver."

[kenny]

I also remeber the 'great' man Bernie Ecclestone telling about 1989.
'You can clearly see Prost moving way too early before the corner'
says it all doesnt it!