21 replies to this topic

[Dennis David]

On November 2, 1934 John Surtees was born.


Seven-time motorcycle World Champion and Formula 1 World Champion for Ferrari in 1964 was known as much for his driving as his mechanical skills. He drove his best on the toughest circuits especially at the Nurburgring. A contemporary of Hill, Gurney and Clark any one who could win on a given day. He started his Formula 1 career in a Lotus but his greatest success came with Ferrari where he was called "big John" by the tifosi. Political intrigue concerning the desire of some members of the team favoring an Italian driver caused him to leave to the detriment of the Englishman as well as the Italians. He later started his own team but lack of proper funds ended that effort.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[bobbo]

In several threads (and on some other sites) recently, I have heard John Surtees mentioned as lackluster, highly talented, enigmatic, cold, friendly, reticent, intense and a lot of other contradictory adjectives.

After doing a little checking, I discovered that he had (in F1 only) 6 wins, several impressive poles (Portugal, 1960, his THIRD f1 race!), placed the Lola-Climax in second TWICE, lasted 3 1/2 years at Ferrari (with a WC!), made the Cooper-Maserati look good, wrestled the Honda F1 into some impressive finishes, helped develop the V-12 BRM, did some great sports car (including some Can-Am stuff), finally retiring in 1972. That's 13 seasons (well, really only 12 1/4). And that's just a short and sloppy check.

Add to this his 7 motorcycling WCs and it seems like there is more to the John Surtees story than first meets the eye.

So . . .What's the real scoop on "Fast John?" Was he misunderstood, unappreciated or what?

Bobbo

[dmj]

He was a Brit driving for Ferrari and Honda while British teams were dominant, so British press probably looked him as a kind of traitor. He never quite achieved popularity of Graham Hill, not to mention Clark... I believe British press is dominant force in developing an oppinion on a F1 driver for most of Globe. And I believe they really didn't like the fact he drove red or white/red cars instead of green ones... It isn't the only reason why he is so underrated today (he didn't do much self-promotion), but certainly is one of reasons.
Anyway, how not to love someone who put "Durex" add on his cars...

[oldtimer]

I too am puzzled by John Surtees chequered F1 career and his capacity to get involved in political machinations. I am currently reading Tony Rudd's book, and Surtees seems to have got well involved in the back-room scenes when driving for BRM.

However, as a Brit, living in England at that time, I don't think the British press were anti-Surtees because he drove for Ferrari and Honda. Surtees was not out-going to fans or the press, the opposite as far as I can gather, so he didn't get much attention. Graham Hill, on the other hand, gave all and sundry a good chance for a laugh or a smile. Jimmy Clark was not out-going either, on the contrary he was very unassuming. He was loved for that, because here was a quiet man who burned like a tiger within.

From the bits and pieces I've read, Big John had quite a hand in his own problems, though exactly how is not clear from those bits and pieces. More hints than details.

[bobbo]

dmj:

Maybe I'm a bit dense (a BIT???), but what is it with the "DUREX" name? I know I'm missing something (besides my marbles )

Oldtimer:

I remember meeting Fast John at the Glen a bunch of years ago (can't remember which year, which car) and I was impresed by his quiet humility, almost to the point where he seemed embarrassed that anyone thought he was talented. Maybe that's why he was labelled as standoff-ish??

Bobbo

[David M. Kane]

Age has treated John Surtees well. He apparently is a much more social
and pleasant person now then he was in his youth. When I met in the 70s
I spent over an hour with him and found him to be difficult, defensive
and just not a people person. I attribute this to two things, he was extremely intense in his exclusive focus on racing and racing only; secondly, he was going through an ugly marriage that led to an eventual
divorce.

I saw him drive many times, he was a master. He was smooth, he was fast
and he was clean.

He was not understood at the time because, frankly, I don't think he cared
nor do I think he wanted to be "figured" out. He a was a pure racer through
and through.

[Wolf]

Just dropped in to add that Moss though he had just as much talent as Jimmy... BTW, does anyone have that photo of him lifting off two wheels on a GP car in a corner (I know someone mentioned having it... maybe Fast One, but I don't think I saw him around lately)?

[Vitesse2]

Bobbo: Durex is the leading brand of condom in the UK That's why it was so controversial at the time (very much pre-AIDS). Aussies also have a problem here with Durex, as it is the brand name of a leading Australian brand of sticky tape (what you would call Scotch tape) - I've met several who have had very strange conversations in stationery shops!

[ensign14]

There was a poster advert of the Durex Surtees in the late 1970s. The tagline was 'The Small Family Car'.

[leegle]

This doesn't answer the question but I am told that he drives the ring out of anything he's put in at Goodwood. Maybe he found that motor car people were different to the motorcycle people he'd known for so long?

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by leegle
[B Maybe he found that motor car people were different to the motorcycle people he'd known for so long? [/B]

DSJ, who got along with him, used to hint at that.

[Wolf]

Even today I do get a feeling watching MotoGP races (and the whole air about it), that GP racing must've been great when things were as they are in MotoGP now... Of course, that Italian 'antics' set aside. : Maybe things are that way because bike races nowdays are watched by enthusiasts, rather than target audience in prime-time slot. :^2

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by dmj
... British press probably looked him as a kind of traitor ... they really didn't like the fact he drove red or white/red cars instead of green ones...

Quite possibly so, but I don't recall DSJ taking that stance. Will flick through a few 60's Motor Sports to check ...

V

[bobbo]

Vitesse2:

!

Bobbo

[Ray Bell]

When I spoke to him in 1970 or 1971 he seemed somewhat reserved. It was a personal discussion, and drivers usually have been fairly open with me on these occasions.

But the people who worked with him at Team Surtees have, in many cases, come away with a very low opinion of him. The concensus seems to be that he was unwilling to delegate, always wanted his ideas to dominate and felt he knew more than others.

Apparently he had a high turnover of staff through those times.

[Udo K.]

John might have been a somewhat difficult team manager and he also had a lot of troubles with his sponsors (Bang & Olufsson especially), but as a driver, he was first class. I rate him very high as in the sixties he conquered the Nürburgring on two and four wheels. 4 wins in the German Grand Prix and the 1000 KM Race (two each) speak for themselves. And another great second in 1966 with the overweight Cooper. I met John many times at the Nürburgring, but as I was a small boy, I did not really talk to him and had to confine myself to taking photos and asking for autographs. He was always friendly to us guys and very patient.
Do not forget that he had to overcome some very hard situations, starting with his terrible accident in Canada, his divorce from Pat, his long illness later.
I'm very happy to see him in good shape today and would love to meet him again. Maybe I will have the opportunity at Goodwood soon.
Also have an eye on his son Henry, who is doing very well in Karting in England. I wonder if we
experience another of these father-son stories.

[cabianca]

I think Ray hit on it. Il Grande John liked things done his way. That could never work at Ferrari or Honda in his era. Designers designed, engineers engineered and drivers drove. John wanted, probably correctly, to change cars and how they were set up. The Italians didn't see it that way and he was frustrated. This was a separate frustration from having to deal with Dragoni and Dragoni's pushing of Bandini. When Surtees started his own firm, it was his way or the highway. As we now know, racing is a team sport and it takes a special kind of person to get everyone pointing in the same direction. Surtees was not one of those people. Bruce McLaren was, and once Bruce got on the Can Am train, Surtees 1966 victories were a mere memory. As a driver, I rate him very highly. Unlike Clark, he could race when he was behind. He drove a lot of junk though, but sometimes made the most of it as when he won the WC for Ferrari.

[Martyj]

When I think of Surtees, I'm reminded of a thread that has been running on this forum recently asking if the advent of wings gave advantages/disadvantages to certain drivers. For what it's worth, Surtees last good season was in 67 with his development of the Honda. That was a year before wings were introduced. It seems thereafter, his ability to develop "bad" cars (a.k.a. the Cooper-Maseratti, and the "Lola" Honda) slacked off. He could do nothing with the BRM, and his own cars were never very good (although he did win a non-championship race in one). Alan Jones, in his book, had some insight into how John kept relying on his instincts for car set-ups, and those insticts were years behind the times. All this leads me to believe that he never got a handle on how changes to areodynamics played into driving a car. I think John was more of a driver who could man-handle his way around motorcycles, big-engined sports cars, and wingless formula cars, but lacked something in his style to really shine when areodynamics begain to take on a larger role in car control.

[Roger Clark]

It may be true that Surtees sufferred from the advent of wings and aerodynamics, but I think the real reason for his decline in the late 60s and early 70s was that he was trying to do too much. There was only one man who really made a success of running his own team and driving at the same time in Grand Prix racing and Jack Brabham was exceptional. It is my opinion that if surtees had concentrated on drivng and not involved himself in the running of the team and the engineering of the car, he might have remained at the top for a few more years.

Similarly, when he retired from driving and was running his own team it seems that it was an inability to delegate that caused problems.

THere is one other thing that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread. Surtees and Jim Clark arrived in International racing at the same time, early 1960. Their careers ran in parallel until Clark's death. It is apparant when reading articles written at the time that Surtees was regarded as the more promising of the two, at least until the middle of 1961.

Martyj's description of Surtees man-handling hos way around motor-cycles and big-engioned sports cars is not the way I remember him. His career in motor-cycling had given him a very delicate touch. He shone in poor conditions, Solitude 1964 being one example that has been previously noted on this forum.

[Viss1]

I agree with Roger Clark that Surtees spread himself a bit more thinly than many of his contemporaries.

As has been mentioned, he was heavily involved in Can-Am throughout the late '60s (winning the WC for Lola in '66 and then assisting heavily in developing/driving the Chapparals), the motorcycle racing earlier, and basically any other type of racing he could fit in. In Can-Am, he frequently butted heads with his team owners, and I remember reading similar accounts concerning F1.

A busy, driven man, Surtees probably just didn't consider PR or fan relations to be a top priority.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Martyj
....All this leads me to believe that he never got a handle on how changes to areodynamics played into driving a car....

'
I've been thinking lately about this point... but from a different perspective. The nose wings on the TS9s etc were different to those on other cars, more in keeping with the Team Surtees arrow.

Seems as though wind tunnel usage was very low those days... and guesswork high.

[Carlos Jalife]

I don't know if this helps but I was corresponding with John and wanted to talk about the Rodríguez brothers a bit since they crossed their paths frequently, and I mentioned his bio (by Alan Henry) was a bit of a rushed job in the period after Honda and he agreed, said it was because of the publisher's limits on whatever (paper, pages, length) and he seemed sad that he was not given his due since he was a great champion and the impression was that this was the only bio he had (unlike Stewart, Hill, Moss or Clark who had many books about each one) and it was an incomplete job, and he seemed sad more than anything.
Maybe he was obscured by some of the other stars but maybe there was a sense of 'I have already been a champion' and people would still question his opinion. He thought he was a great tester and there is no evidence to contradict him. Pedro thought well of him, they shared cars sometimes and he was pleased with the way he made them handle (on the other hand Ricardo was sure he could beat John in 1963, but then Ricardo was sure he could beat everyone, and when John beat his time in Mexico in 1962, Ricardo went out for one last time and he was killed there). My impression more than anything is he should have been knighted and everything long before some of his contemporaries and somehow he was ignored because he didn't work the PR game like others.