You know, the trophy that encouraged teams and drivers to atmo engines, and was graded in its own right as a championship (while still being scored with the turbo championship of course). I mean, you don't here much about it nowadays, and it seems as if it was just for the smaller teams to give them some help before the turbos were banned. I know that Tyrrell won the Colin Chapman trophy the first year, naturally considering they were the last to switch to a turbo and the first to sign up for a DFZ.
Almost like Le Mans, first in "class".
How highly valued was the Jim Clark Trophy anyway?
Started by
Megatron
, Jan 01 2002 02:49
22 replies to this topic
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#2
AdrianM
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Posted 01 January 2002 - 05:30
It was in 1987. Dr. Jonathon Palmer won the Jim Clark Cup and Tyrrell the Colin Chapman cup. I don't think it was that highly regarded. It was just to see which was the best normally aspirated team. I don't think Ken Tyrrell would have gotten overly excited about.
#3
stevew
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Posted 01 January 2002 - 05:49
Well, the FIA does some odd-ball things sometimes.
As I understand it, the 3.5 liter "atmo" formula was announced before the 1987 season, to take effect starting in 1989.
The FIA apparently had decided that the turbos had gotten too powerful and expensive. So, to encourage teams to start using the normally-aspirated engines Cosworth were building as soon as possible (ESPN showed them as "non-aspirated" on their race results graphics
), the Jim Clark and Colin Chapman trophies were created.
Was the FIA fearful that a lot of teams would fold due to the massive expense of running competitive (or even uncompetitive) turbos? I don't know.
I haven't ever read or seen anything about the "massive value" those trophies brought to the teams, so perhaps it was just a "pacifier" until everybody started using "non-aspirated" engines in 1989.
It is interesting to note that 1989 had something like 20 teams and 39 drivers showing up for each Grand Prix, so it seems that the 1987 trophies were a waste of effort...
As I understand it, the 3.5 liter "atmo" formula was announced before the 1987 season, to take effect starting in 1989.
The FIA apparently had decided that the turbos had gotten too powerful and expensive. So, to encourage teams to start using the normally-aspirated engines Cosworth were building as soon as possible (ESPN showed them as "non-aspirated" on their race results graphics
), the Jim Clark and Colin Chapman trophies were created.Was the FIA fearful that a lot of teams would fold due to the massive expense of running competitive (or even uncompetitive) turbos? I don't know.
I haven't ever read or seen anything about the "massive value" those trophies brought to the teams, so perhaps it was just a "pacifier" until everybody started using "non-aspirated"
engines in 1989.It is interesting to note that 1989 had something like 20 teams and 39 drivers showing up for each Grand Prix, so it seems that the 1987 trophies were a waste of effort...
#4
AdrianM
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Posted 01 January 2002 - 05:54
Well, the FIA does some odd-ball things sometimes
#5
BRG
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Posted 02 January 2002 - 12:52
I reckon that the Jim Clark Trophy is (was) about as highly valued as the F1 World Driver's "Vice-Championship" - you remember, the thing that the FIA invented, just so that they could strip Michael Schumacher of it after the Jerez incident. No-one (including Schumacher) even knew it existed before it was wrenched away from him. That must have really hurt him, losing something he never knew that he had....
#6
Haddock
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Posted 22 August 2002 - 20:44
I'm sure that the Jim Clark Cup and the Colin Chapman Trophy were names so by the FIA because they were meant to evoke the great days of atmo-engined racing (there was a lot of nostalgia for that in the turbo days, which always strikes me as ironic, because I'm kind of nostalgic for the days of 1500BHP qualifying engines myself)
But personally I thought it was a sly dig at the half baked nature of the teams and the fact that the engine they were all running - the Ford DFZ - was a bored out version of the DFV which first took a race win back in 1967 with Jim Clark driving one of Colin Chapman's cars (feel free to correct me, I can't remember, it could actually have been Hill that won the first race for the DFV)
But personally I thought it was a sly dig at the half baked nature of the teams and the fact that the engine they were all running - the Ford DFZ - was a bored out version of the DFV which first took a race win back in 1967 with Jim Clark driving one of Colin Chapman's cars (feel free to correct me, I can't remember, it could actually have been Hill that won the first race for the DFV)
#7
petefenelon
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Posted 22 August 2002 - 22:19
Originally posted by Megatron
You know, the trophy that encouraged teams and drivers to atmo engines, and was graded in its own right as a championship (while still being scored with the turbo championship of course). I mean, you don't here much about it nowadays, and it seems as if it was just for the smaller teams to give them some help before the turbos were banned. I know that Tyrrell won the Colin Chapman trophy the first year, naturally considering they were the last to switch to a turbo and the first to sign up for a DFZ.
Almost like Le Mans, first in "class".
Maybe it's worth bringing it back for, er, non-Ferrari F1 cars?
The Clark and Chapman competitions were hardly keenly contested in '87 - two Tyrrells, a Lola, an AGS built out of an old Renault tub, and a March that sometimes had to run a 3.3DFL, so Tyrrell were pretty much bound to walk it.
FYI, the '87 scores (no, I can't make them add up right, but that's what Autocourse '87 says)
Palmer (Tyrrell) 95
Streiff (Tyrrell) 74
Alliot (Lola) 43
Capelli (March) 38
Fabre (AGS) 35
Moreno (AGS) 4
Dalmas scored 7 points for Lola but was deemed not to have taken part in enough races, which is weird, because he did more races than Moreno.... ah, the FIA!
Tyrrell 169
Lola 50
AGS 41
March 38
They might as well have given the Chapman to Uncle Ken as soon as the season started, basically!
#8
ensign14
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Posted 23 August 2002 - 06:26
It was the Lola no. 29 which had not done enough races...AGS had one entry throughout the season so it was entitled to go for points; Larrousse no. 30 had done the whole season and so was eligible for points, the second car was not eligible because it only did the last couple of races. For the same reason Osella and AGS did not score points at Italy 84 with their second entries, which only took part in a few races each. (Can't remember when the rule changed so you could only score points if you took part in every race.)Originally posted by petefenelon
Dalmas scored 7 points for Lola but was deemed not to have taken part in enough races, which is weird, because he did more races than Moreno.... ah, the FIA!
#9
petefenelon
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Posted 23 August 2002 - 08:24
Originally posted by ensign14
It was the Lola no. 29 which had not done enough races...AGS had one entry throughout the season so it was entitled to go for points; Larrousse no. 30 had done the whole season and so was eligible for points, the second car was not eligible because it only did the last couple of races. For the same reason Osella and AGS did not score points at Italy 84 with their second entries, which only took part in a few races each. (Can't remember when the rule changed so you could only score points if you took part in every race.)
I think you mean ATS there - Gerhard Berger finished in a points-scoring position but didn't get points, now you come to mention it!
pete
#10
ensign14
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Posted 23 August 2002 - 08:28
Yep - ATS - too influenced by Autosport. 
#11
quintin cloud
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Posted 23 August 2002 - 09:08
I'm going to ask a dumb question about the Chapman & Clark Trophy, what class of car's was used, is it F2, F3000, F1 or F3 
and what years did the event('s) take place 
and what years did the event('s) take place
#12
Rainer Nyberg
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Posted 23 August 2002 - 09:42
3.5litre atmospheric Formula 1 cars. 1987.
#13
LittleChris
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Posted 23 August 2002 - 15:27
Originally posted by petefenelon
I think you mean ATS there - Gerhard Berger finished in a points-scoring position but didn't get points, now you come to mention it!
pete
Surely it WAS AGS ( Someone like Pascal Fabre driving ? - Charro sponsorship ? Red & White striped colour scheme ?).
Bergers non points scoring for ATS was the 1984 Italian GP. By the time of the Jim Clark cup etc, ATS had long gone.
#14
effone2k
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Posted 23 August 2002 - 15:36
Originally posted by Haddock
DFV which first took a race win back in 1967 with Jim Clark driving one of Colin Chapman's cars
JC won the Dutch GP on June 4, 1967 with a DFV (race debut) in a Lotus 49.
#15
petefenelon
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Posted 23 August 2002 - 15:46
Originally posted by LittleChris
Surely it WAS AGS ( Someone like Pascal Fabre driving ? - Charro sponsorship ? Red & White striped colour scheme ?).
Bergers non points scoring for ATS was the 1984 Italian GP. By the time of the Jim Clark cup etc, ATS had long gone.
Yes, that's the case I was talking about. Berger was doing rather well in '87
pete
#16
pedro
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Posted 23 August 2002 - 16:59
FYI, the '87 scores (no, I can't make them add up right, but that's what Autocourse '87 says)
We’re agreed, then, Dalmas and the 2nd Lola were ineligible for WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP points.
The confusion over Clark/Chapman points arises because Dalmas and Moreno actually finished 5th and 6th overall in the last round in Australia. Suddenly its not just Clark/Chapman points at stake, but 'real' championship points as well, so someone must have started reading the rule book. (Or not!)
Autocourse appear to have credited Dalmas 7 points for his finishes prior to Australia, then ignored the 6 he would have got (if eligible) in Australia. But they forgot to deduct 7 from Lola, who should, by their logic, have finished with 43, all scored by Alliot.
Then (this is really weird), they gave Moreno 4 Clark points (and 1 'real' point) for his 6th place in Australia, but gave AGS 6 Chapman points (but only 1 'real' point) for that result - in other words, they have allocated Dalmas's 5th place points as follows:
6 Clark points - ignored
6 Chapman points - given to AGS !!
2 WDC points - ignored
2 WCC points - ignored
I think you'll find that it is Autocourse being illogical here, not FIA.
The question is, did Dalmas's ineligibility for WC points necessarily exclude him from Clark/Chapman points as well? After all, did anyone actually have to 'enter' the Clark/Chapman championships? If you take the view that 'not in WC' does indeed mean 'not in Clark/Chapman either', then the points should be:
1 Tyrrell 169
2 Lola 43
3 AGS 39
4 March 38
If, on the other hand, Dalmas was entitled to score in Clark/Chapman, but not in WC, we have:
1 Tyrrell 169
2 Lola 56
3 AGS 39
4 March 38
with Dalmas 6th in Clark Trophy with 13 points
which is the table given in both the FIA yearbook and the Schimpff/ACLA yearbook (both of which correctly omit the 2 WC points for which Dalmas/Lola definitely were ineligible).
#17
petefenelon
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Posted 23 August 2002 - 17:07
Originally posted by pedro
clear and logical explanation by Pedro deleted - thanks
The question is, did Dalmas's ineligibility for WC points necessarily exclude him from Clark/Chapman points as well? After all, did anyone actually have to 'enter' the Clark/Chapman championships? If you take the view that 'not in WC' does indeed mean 'not in Clark/Chapman either', then the points should be:
Suddenly it's 1939 all over again
Thanks for sorting that out. Surprisingly, various other references
don't deign to list the Chapman/Clark points - I dug Pierre Menard and
the Guinness Guide to International Motor Racing off the shelves first
before delving into the Autocourses!
pete
#18
ensign14
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Posted 23 August 2002 - 17:22
The FIRST one was AGS (the no 14 had taken part throughout the season and was thus eligible for points at Australia, albeit with 2 drivers).Originally posted by LittleChris
Surely it WAS AGS ( Someone like Pascal Fabre driving ? - Charro sponsorship ? Red & White striped colour scheme ?).
Bergers non points scoring for ATS was the 1984 Italian GP. By the time of the Jim Clark cup etc, ATS had long gone.
The SECOND one was ATS, the point being they could not score points at Italy for their temporary second car.
OT, but about AGS, I remember Murray Walker before a GP in '87 introducing Pascal Fabre to the British audience, as the one man to have finished all GPs so far. Guess what happened next race...
#19
quintin cloud
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Posted 26 August 2002 - 07:46
Thanks Rainer for the reminder of it been Formula 1
I have been doing some research into the Chapman and Clark trophy and I have some issues with what petefenelon as writen from the Autocource '87. First off, the some backround on the points for the championship: As noted the points are 9-6-4-3-2-1, and only best 11 results count towards the championship, as used in F1 championship in 1987.
So this would mean following:
Palmer (Tyrrell) 87 point(95){8 points were dropped}
Streiff (Tyrrell) 74
Alliot (Lola) 43
Capelli (March) 38
Fabre (AGS) 33
Moreno (AGS) 4
Dalmas (Lola) 9 but because Lola only entered one car at the start of the season but the last three races Mexico, Japan and Australia Lola raced with three cars and Alliot got points for drivers but both drivers results counted towards the Chapman Trophy.
Chapman Trophy whould look like this:
Tyrrell 169
Lola 52
AGS 41
March 38
With all race results included.
Now the list of problems that I have some results from my sources:
Clark Trophy
Please noted that points have been added and changed for Fabre
round 1 (4) finished the GP in 12th place.
round 5 (6) instead of 4 listed in source.
round 6 (4) instead of 6 listed in source.
round 7 (6) finished the gp in 9th place.
round 8 (-) no points DNF
round 9 (3) finished the GP in 13th place.
Please noted that points have been added for Dalmas
round 14 (3) finished the GP in 9th place.
Palmer, Striff, Alliot, Capelli, Moreno no propblems.
Maybe someone answer why Fabre points are questionable.
Now the Chapman Trophy:
Please Note following chages:
Tyrrel:
Round 15 (15) instead of 10 points because of Palmer and Streiff for there 9 and 6 points added together.
Lola
Round 14 (9) special noted Lola would of got 12 points if Dalmas points counted.
AGS
Round 5 (6) instead 4 because of Fabre finish 2nd the Clark Trophy.
March
Round 12 (9) instead of 6 because of Capelli been first in the Clark Trophy.
My source shows that the best 11 results counted for the trophy and not as the Constructors championship had it with all results counted.
Maybe someone answer why Chapman points are SO questionable.
Originally posted by petefenelon
Maybe it's worth bringing it back for, er, non-Ferrari F1 cars?
The Clark and Chapman competitions were hardly keenly contested in '87 - two Tyrrells, a Lola, an AGS built out of an old Renault tub, and a March that sometimes had to run a 3.3DFL, so Tyrrell were pretty much bound to walk it.
FYI, the '87 scores (no, I can't make them add up right, but that's what Autocourse '87 says)
Palmer (Tyrrell) 95
Streiff (Tyrrell) 74
Alliot (Lola) 43
Capelli (March) 38
Fabre (AGS) 35
Moreno (AGS) 4
Dalmas scored 7 points for Lola but was deemed not to have taken part in enough races, which is weird, because he did more races than Moreno.... ah, the FIA!
Tyrrell 169
Lola 50
AGS 41
March 38
They might as well have given the Chapman to Uncle Ken as soon as the season started, basically!
I have been doing some research into the Chapman and Clark trophy and I have some issues with what petefenelon as writen from the Autocource '87. First off, the some backround on the points for the championship: As noted the points are 9-6-4-3-2-1, and only best 11 results count towards the championship, as used in F1 championship in 1987.
So this would mean following:
Palmer (Tyrrell) 87 point(95){8 points were dropped}
Streiff (Tyrrell) 74
Alliot (Lola) 43
Capelli (March) 38
Fabre (AGS) 33
Moreno (AGS) 4
Dalmas (Lola) 9 but because Lola only entered one car at the start of the season but the last three races Mexico, Japan and Australia Lola raced with three cars and Alliot got points for drivers but both drivers results counted towards the Chapman Trophy.
Chapman Trophy whould look like this:
Tyrrell 169
Lola 52
AGS 41
March 38
With all race results included.
Now the list of problems that I have some results from my sources:
Clark Trophy
As from my source first: Driver |1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10 |11 |12|13|14|15|16 |total| Palmer |9|-|-|9|9|6|9|6|9|(4)|(4)|6 |- |6 |9 | 9 |87(95) Striff |6|9|6|-|-|9|-|9|6| - | 9 |4 |6 |4 |6 | - |74 Alliot |-|6|9|-|-|-|-|4|-| 6 | - |- |9 |9 |- | - |43 Capelli |-|-|-|6|-|-|-|-|4| 9 | 6 |9 |4 |- |- | - |38 Fabre |-|4|4|4|4|6|-|3|-| - | - |- |- |- |- | - |35 Moreno |-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| - | - |- |- |- |- | 4 |4 Dalmas |-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| - | - |- |- |- |- |(6)|(6) Now my table: Driver |1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10 |11 |12|13|14 |15|16 |total| Palmer |9|-|-|9|9|6|9|6|9|(4)|(4)|6 |- | 6 |9 | 9 |87(95) Striff |6|9|6|-|-|9|-|9|6| - | 9 |4 |6 | 4 |6 | - |74 Alliot |-|6|9|-|-|-|-|4|-| 6 | - |- |9 | 9 |- | - |43 Capelli |-|-|-|6|-|-|-|-|4| 9 | 6 |9 |4 | - |- | - |38 Fabre |4|4|4|4|6|4|6|-|3| - | - |- |- | - |- | - |35 Moreno |-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| - | - |- |- | - |- | 4 |4 Dalmas |-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| - | - |- |- |(3)|- |(6)|(9)
Please noted that points have been added and changed for Fabre
round 1 (4) finished the GP in 12th place.
round 5 (6) instead of 4 listed in source.
round 6 (4) instead of 6 listed in source.
round 7 (6) finished the gp in 9th place.
round 8 (-) no points DNF
round 9 (3) finished the GP in 13th place.
Please noted that points have been added for Dalmas
round 14 (3) finished the GP in 9th place.
Palmer, Striff, Alliot, Capelli, Moreno no propblems.
Maybe someone answer why Fabre points are questionable.
Now the Chapman Trophy:
As from my source first: Make |1 |2| 3 |4|5|6 | 7 |8 |9 |10 |11|12|13 |14|15|16 | total | Tyrrel |15|9|(6)|9|9|15|(9)|15|15|(4)|13|10|(6)|10|10|(9)|130(169)| Lola |- |6| 9 |-|-|- | - |4 |- | 6 |- |- | 9 |9 |9 |(6)|52(58) AGS |4 |4| 4 |4|6|4 | 6 |- |3 | - |- |- | - |- |- | 4 |39 March |- |-| - |6|-|- | - |- |4 | 9 |6 |6 | 4 |- |- | - |35 Now my table: Make |1 |2| 3 |4|5|6 | 7 |8 |9 |10 |11|12|13 |14|15|16 | total | Tyrrel |15|9|(6)|9|9|15|(9)|15|15|(4)|13|10|(6) |10|15|(9)|135(169)| Lola |- |6| 9 |-|-|- | - |4 |- | 6 |- |- |9(3)|9 |9 |(6)|43(52) AGS |4 |4| 4 |4|6|4 | 6 |- |3 | - |- |- | - |- |- | 4 |41 March |- |-| - |6|-|- | - |- |4 | 9 |6 |9 | 4 |- |- | - |38
Please Note following chages:
Tyrrel:
Round 15 (15) instead of 10 points because of Palmer and Streiff for there 9 and 6 points added together.
Lola
Round 14 (9) special noted Lola would of got 12 points if Dalmas points counted.
AGS
Round 5 (6) instead 4 because of Fabre finish 2nd the Clark Trophy.
March
Round 12 (9) instead of 6 because of Capelli been first in the Clark Trophy.
My source shows that the best 11 results counted for the trophy and not as the Constructors championship had it with all results counted.
Maybe someone answer why Chapman points are SO questionable.
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#20
pedro
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Posted 28 August 2002 - 19:13
Quintin - you mention your 'sources' several times, but don't say who they are.
The only 'new' information from your sources seems to be the "best eleven" rule. None of the sources previously cited (in this thread) mention such a rule for the Clark trophy. I was inclined towards the view that the absense of a "best 11" rule leant weight to the argument that Dalmas's scores DID count - there were clearly different rules for eligibility in the Clark trophy and the World Drivers Championship. So, if you have a source which states there WAS a best 11 rule, I'd like to know how reliable and authorative it is.
However, the fact that you yourself have had to correct a lot of quite fundamental errors in your source tends to suggest that maybe it isn't terribly reliable.
Now, there seem to be some errors in your posting:
Fabre 33 points (in your first list). You must mean 35 points. It is certain that Fabre scored 35 points, and your own calculations later confirm this. The only dissenting view is that shown in your 'source' table, which gives him the absurd total of 25, though even this shows 35 in the total column.
What???
First of all, Dalmas "scored" 13 points: you've neglected his 4 points from race 15, Japan.
Second, Lola entered two cars, not three, in the final three races. (I assume this is a typing error).
Third, for Dalmas's points not to count in the Clark, but to count in the Chapman, is completely illogical and silly (which is not to say that it is wrong). But all the sources I've seen have the points counting in neither (Autocourse) or both (everyone else).
AGS 41 points ???
Your source table gives 39
Your corrected source table gives the same scores, but incorrectly adds them up to 41
Only Autocourse gives AGS 41 (6 points for Australia - everyone else gives Lola 6 and AGS 4, and I've already argued that Autocourse are being illogical for giving AGS 6 and its driver only 4).
OK, so where does this leave us?
Clark trophy:
Palmer 95 (Autocourse, FIA yearbook, Schimpff/ACLA yearbook, Murray Walker's GP Year)
or 87 (Quintin's source)
Streiff 74
Alliot 43
Capelli 38
Fabre 35
or 25 (Quintin's source)
Dalmas 13 (FIA yearbook, Schimpff/ACLA yearbook, Murray Walker's GP Year)
or zero (Autocourse)
or 6 (Quintin's source)
or 9 (Quintin's amended source)
Moreno 4
Chapman cup:
Tyrrell 169
Lola 56 (FIA yearbook, Schimpff/ACLA yearbook, Murray Walker's GP Year)
or 50 (Autourse)
or 43 (Autocourse amended)
or 52 (Quintin)
AGS 39 (FIA yearbook, Schimpff/ACLA yearbook, Murray Walker's GP Year, Quintin's source)
or 41 (Autocourse, Quintin)
March 38
The only 'new' information from your sources seems to be the "best eleven" rule. None of the sources previously cited (in this thread) mention such a rule for the Clark trophy. I was inclined towards the view that the absense of a "best 11" rule leant weight to the argument that Dalmas's scores DID count - there were clearly different rules for eligibility in the Clark trophy and the World Drivers Championship. So, if you have a source which states there WAS a best 11 rule, I'd like to know how reliable and authorative it is.
However, the fact that you yourself have had to correct a lot of quite fundamental errors in your source tends to suggest that maybe it isn't terribly reliable.
Now, there seem to be some errors in your posting:
Fabre 33 points (in your first list). You must mean 35 points. It is certain that Fabre scored 35 points, and your own calculations later confirm this. The only dissenting view is that shown in your 'source' table, which gives him the absurd total of 25, though even this shows 35 in the total column.
Dalmas (Lola) 9 but because Lola only entered one car at the start of the season but the last three races Mexico, Japan and Australia Lola raced with three cars and Alliot got points for drivers but both drivers results counted towards the Chapman Trophy.
What???
First of all, Dalmas "scored" 13 points: you've neglected his 4 points from race 15, Japan.
Second, Lola entered two cars, not three, in the final three races. (I assume this is a typing error).
Third, for Dalmas's points not to count in the Clark, but to count in the Chapman, is completely illogical and silly (which is not to say that it is wrong). But all the sources I've seen have the points counting in neither (Autocourse) or both (everyone else).
AGS 41 points ???
Your source table gives 39
Your corrected source table gives the same scores, but incorrectly adds them up to 41
Only Autocourse gives AGS 41 (6 points for Australia - everyone else gives Lola 6 and AGS 4, and I've already argued that Autocourse are being illogical for giving AGS 6 and its driver only 4).
OK, so where does this leave us?
Clark trophy:
Palmer 95 (Autocourse, FIA yearbook, Schimpff/ACLA yearbook, Murray Walker's GP Year)
or 87 (Quintin's source)
Streiff 74
Alliot 43
Capelli 38
Fabre 35
or 25 (Quintin's source)
Dalmas 13 (FIA yearbook, Schimpff/ACLA yearbook, Murray Walker's GP Year)
or zero (Autocourse)
or 6 (Quintin's source)
or 9 (Quintin's amended source)
Moreno 4
Chapman cup:
Tyrrell 169
Lola 56 (FIA yearbook, Schimpff/ACLA yearbook, Murray Walker's GP Year)
or 50 (Autourse)
or 43 (Autocourse amended)
or 52 (Quintin)
AGS 39 (FIA yearbook, Schimpff/ACLA yearbook, Murray Walker's GP Year, Quintin's source)
or 41 (Autocourse, Quintin)
March 38
#21
quintin cloud
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Posted 29 August 2002 - 06:13
Hi Pedro
The sources of the which I got the data is as follows:
Autocourse
FIA yearbook
and
Grand Prix Data book 1997(by D. Hayhoe & D. Holland).1997 which names the best 11 race results statement.
Now is what I am saying with my table and refering to the 3 sources, what is the correct one??
You made note of three entry's for Lola, if I miss frased it, sorry, you are correct that there was only two Lola entry's, which was Alliot and Dalmas, of which Dalmas only joined the team for the last three races. (MEX, JAP, AUS)
The AGS 41 points is a typo you correct with 39 points.
So yes where does this leave us, Fabre ????, Dalmas ???? and Lola ???? what is the correct answer?
Maybe one sould start by looking at the rules for the Clark and Chapman Trophy.
Points:
9-6-4-3-2-1 all sources show the same answer.
How many races counted for the trophy's.
Best 11 results or all 16 races
Single entry teams and points give to the constructor and driver
The sources of the which I got the data is as follows:
Autocourse
FIA yearbook
and
Grand Prix Data book 1997(by D. Hayhoe & D. Holland).1997 which names the best 11 race results statement.
Now is what I am saying with my table and refering to the 3 sources, what is the correct one??
You made note of three entry's for Lola, if I miss frased it, sorry, you are correct that there was only two Lola entry's, which was Alliot and Dalmas, of which Dalmas only joined the team for the last three races. (MEX, JAP, AUS)
The AGS 41 points is a typo you correct with 39 points.
So yes where does this leave us, Fabre ????, Dalmas ???? and Lola ???? what is the correct answer?
Maybe one sould start by looking at the rules for the Clark and Chapman Trophy.
Points:
9-6-4-3-2-1 all sources show the same answer.
How many races counted for the trophy's.
Best 11 results
or all 16 races Single entry teams and points give to the constructor and driver
#22
kabouter
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- 163 posts
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Posted 29 August 2002 - 10:32
In the Grand Prix Data Book of 1995, Hayhoe and Holland list the Clark and Chapman points below the overall drivers and constructors points respectively. Below the tables there's the rules about how many rounds counted for that year, as usual. However, it doesn't state explicitly that for the Clark and Chapman Trophies the same rules applied as for the 'normal' championship. Maybe they just assumed that the same rules applied?
By the way, in this edition of the book, Fabre's points are correct, and like in your 'source table' strangely Dalmas isn't credited with any points (counting or not counting) in Mexico and Japan.
By the way, in this edition of the book, Fabre's points are correct, and like in your 'source table' strangely Dalmas isn't credited with any points (counting or not counting) in Mexico and Japan.
#23
FEV
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- 909 posts
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Posted 31 August 2002 - 01:56
One I always wondered about : does anybody know if the Clark and Chapman trophies were officially scheduled for 1988 ? The French mags I have give provisionnal standings after the first two or three Grands Prix of 1988. After that nothing, but neither did I find any official anouncement of the cancellation of the trophies. IIRC the FISA hoped that non-supercharged cars would be in it for victory in 1988 ( 
) therefore I don't think they would have continued to award the JC & CC things. So was it a case of poor french journalism ? Or was it a typical FISA bug (I would not be so surprised to discover a JMB statement around May 1988 saying : "oh yeah and we forgot to tell you : the Jim Clark and Colin Chapman trophies are not awarded anymore" !) ?
FWIW re 1987 I have (although not handy but I hope my memory serves me right on this one) a french F1 1987 review book which retains 11 out of 16 results and includes Dalmas in the tables.
) therefore I don't think they would have continued to award the JC & CC things. So was it a case of poor french journalism ? Or was it a typical FISA bug (I would not be so surprised to discover a JMB statement around May 1988 saying : "oh yeah and we forgot to tell you : the Jim Clark and Colin Chapman trophies are not awarded anymore" !) ?FWIW re 1987 I have (although not handy but I hope my memory serves me right on this one) a french F1 1987 review book which retains 11 out of 16 results and includes Dalmas in the tables.
