32 replies to this topic

[D. Heimgartner]

Just musing here... but I've read that Mika and MS do not have similar/identical driving styles. Now I was wondering, how would Mika perform using MS's Ferrari: 1) using Michael's exact driving setup? 2) using his own setup?

This really leads into next year. 2003!

If Mika would partner with MS at Ferrari in 2003, at what disadvantage (if any) would that place the Finn (this shouldn't be approached from the psychological angle, please, only a technical, pseudo-emotional angle).

[kouks]

Everyone knows MS has his cars custom made for him, so I'm not sure how MH would go at Ferrari.

MS' Ferrari is front wheel drive and MS often suffers from torque steer at the beginning of GP'S. Ross says it is quite normal on the opening lap for the Ferrari to accidently swerve into the path of other cars and it's only because MS is a great driver that he can control this torque steer without causing accidents.

Erja wouldn't let Mika drive a Front wheel drive (she says they're not safe) car so we'll never know

[Jhope]

Front Wheel Drive? WTF???

[SlateGray]

Quote

Originally posted by kouks
Everyone knows MS has his cars custom made for him, so I'm not sure how MH would go at Ferrari.

MS' Ferrari is front wheel drive and MS often suffers from torque steer at the beginning of GP'S. Ross says it is quite normal on the opening lap for the Ferrari to accidently swerve into the path of other cars and it's only because MS is a great driver that he can control this torque steer without causing accidents.

Erja wouldn't let Mika drive a Front wheel drive (she says they're not safe) car so we'll never know

[Arrow]

Quote

Originally posted by D. Heimgartner
Just musing here... but I've read that Mika and MS do not have similar/identical driving styles. Now I was wondering, how would Mika perform using MS's Ferrari: 1) using Michael's exact driving setup? 2) using his own setup?

This really leads into next year. 2003!

If Mika would partner with MS at Ferrari in 2003, at what disadvantage (if any) would that place the Finn (this shouldn't be approached from the psychological angle, please, only a technical, pseudo-emotional angle).

This is from an interview with rory bryne in the last autosport.

Does his ability let you design a car differently because you can have it closer to the stability limit?

NO,we dont design cars to a driver.We design a car we beleive is best.
But michael is able to extract the most from setup because he csn drive closer to the stabiliy limit than most other guys.If you back off from the stability level you get more understeer and overall your slightly slower.It might be more consistent but it isnt as fast.So especially in qualifying he can really take it to the edge.

Michael getting custom built cars to his driving style is another MYTH created by the anti's to try and explain away his performances.

[mikabest]

Here is a quote from Martin Brundle's article where he compares his former teammates MH and MS. This is what he says how the guys take the corners. I get the impression that their style is not so very different after all at least in that area...or what do you others think? BTW I recommend that article. I have rarely seen anything as good.

"With both of them, the apex deceleration is smoothed out ­ it's more of a U than a V ­ and I've rarely seen that. It only works out as a couple of miles per hour, but it's consistently there and it makes a significant cumulative difference.

So how is it achieved? Mika uses the pedals smoothly. He didn't always brake later than I did ­ in fact, I often braked later than Mika and I think David Coulthard does the same today ­ but Mika is very good at synchronising the application and release of throttle and brakes.

Michael is also strong in this area, but he likes to steer the car with the throttle a bit more than Mika does. He's not quite as fluid. The net result is remarkably similar: a higher apex minimum speed, and the ability to set the car up for that apex so that once power is applied, the car is straighter sooner ­ so it's ready to accelerate away from the corner earlier and faster.

Again, it's Mika who is slightly better here. He always seemed able to apply virtually full throttle very early and have less wheelspin than I was having with less throttle. I looked at it very carefully in '94, and I think the key was, is, ­ the couple of degrees of controlled sliding that he introduces to the car on the turn-in. If you're sideways, you're wasting time, but that's not what we're talking about here.

We're talking about arriving at a corner, dialling in a smidgen of attitude, and springboarding off that attitude rather than correcting it. Michael achieves something very similar by teasing the back end of the car with the throttle. And I'm talking about graph paper now ­telemetry, computers, science, fact. Black and white. Those two guys can maintain forward motion more of the time than most others can.

And in slow corners ­places like Club at Silverstone ­ it delivers real, tangible benefit. Although their slightly differing approaches achieve extremely similar results, Mika's technique is a little smoother ­ the result is, predictably, that Michael uses his tyres more heavily. Lately, that has helped him in qualifying.

­He can get hard tyres working hotter earlier than Mika can ­but it can punish him during a race if tyre degradation is a factor. Mika maximises the width of the track better than anybody else ­ but, again, Michael is very close. They 'widen' the track ­ ease the racing line ­ in different ways. Mika turns in from a very wide line ­ he isn't afraid to brake on the white lines that mark the track perimeter (except in the wet, of course, when to do so is suicidal)."

yours,
ever so biased MIKABEST

[HSJ]

Quote

Originally posted by Arrow


This is from an interview with rory bryne in the last autosport.

Does his ability let you design a car differently because you can have it closer to the stability limit?

NO,we dont design cars to a driver.We design a car we beleive is best.
But michael is able to extract the most from setup because he csn drive closer to the stabiliy limit than most other guys.If you back off from the stability level you get more understeer and overall your slightly slower.It might be more consistent but it isnt as fast.So especially in qualifying he can really take it to the edge.

Michael getting custom built cars to his driving style is another MYTH created by the anti's to try and explain away his performances.

I was waiting for someone to mention this. This only means that the car is not designed PER SE for MS, but effectively which driver do you think they listen most on feedback in testing, i.e. what is fast and what is not, and how do you think that will affect the end design? Yeah, you won't like the answer.

[LuckyStrike1]

well all drivers drive their cars with their own set-ups unless they have crashed their race cars and have to drive a spare car set up for the team mate.

So Mika would set up his car for his liking. Schumi for his liking, Rubens for his liking and so on and so on .... and some drivers are better than others to know and find a set up for their liking.

[wati]

Quote

Originally posted by HSJ


I was waiting for someone to mention this. This only means that the car is not designed PER SE for MS, but effectively which driver do you think they listen most on feedback in testing, i.e. what is fast and what is not, and how do you think that will affect the end design? Yeah, you won't like the answer.

Dear HSJ, who do you think tests the car in the winter? MS? No, it's Luca and Rubens, this year also Luciano, those three make all the developement work. They are the people that engineers listen to.

Wattie

[HSJ]

Quote

Originally posted by wati


Dear HSJ, who do you think tests the car in the winter? MS? No, it's Luca and Rubens, this year also Luciano, those three make all the developement work. They are the people that engineers listen to.

Wattie

Please. When do you think a car is designed? During the winter? In addition the new car is usually not used in the tests at first, but MS is testing around the introduction of it.

[Smooth]

IF IF IF.....


If Mika could get a setup on the Ferrari he was very happy with, he would be very quick, no doubt, however, we have seen time and time again Mika has a bit of a weakness dealing with a car with a setup that didn't give him just the right feedback.
Michael has shown his strength is arguably not in being as 'technically' fast (at least for a car vs, say, a kart) as Mika, but in being very consistent no matter what characteristics the car was displaying.

As Brundle has also stated: given equal cars, setup to their liking, Mika would probably take pole, Michael the race.

As far as the car being built to suit one driver, it is only a small percentage fact. The car is drawn up and tested in countless computer simulations first, then scale modeled and shaped in the windtunnel, more sims, etc...... by the time a driver gets in the car, the changes made are usually small in scope.....besides which (HSJ) MS the last couple years hasn't done much of the pre-season testing...... so your theory, like so many others, is bases on some skewed perception of reality, and based in some unexplained bias. It has no basis in reality. Some 'scientist'. You are becoming laughable.

A driver would have more input in things like tire development and suspension development during the season.

[Smooth]

Quote

Originally posted by HSJ


Please. When do you think a car is designed? During the winter? In addition the new car is usually not used in the tests at first, but MS is testing around the introduction of it.

Do you not even see the flaw in your logic?? So the car is designed, built, then introduced, then MS tests it around its introduction and it is, what, re-designed, rebuilt and re-introduced?

The car is designed a set of parameters and specs given to the engineer, who carves and shapes the car around them, moving weight around, losing aero drag, maximizing downforce while reducing drag, etc..... where in the process does MS come into that? Is he an aero engineer?


Byrne, Newey, or any engineer, designs the most efficient car possible. The driver has nothing to do with it during this process. But I guess you know more than Byrne and Newey, who have both stated the obvious too many times.

[Breadmaster]

Didn't you know Byrne is a figurehead? MS does all the designing at Maranello...

[TAB666]

Quote

Originally posted by kouks
Everyone knows MS has his cars custom made for him, so I'm not sure how MH would go at Ferrari.

MS' Ferrari is front wheel drive and MS often suffers from torque steer at the beginning of GP'S. Ross says it is quite normal on the opening lap for the Ferrari to accidently swerve into the path of other cars and it's only because MS is a great driver that he can control this torque steer without causing accidents.

Erja wouldn't let Mika drive a Front wheel drive (she says they're not safe) car so we'll never know

that was a good one

[wati]

Quote

Originally posted by HSJ


Please. When do you think a car is designed? During the winter? In addition the new car is usually not used in the tests at first, but MS is testing around the introduction of it.

LOL!!! You think Schumi has anything to do with the design parameters? You think he tells Rory how something should be done?

Wattie

[karlth]

A few quotes from Fredrik B. Knutsen, director of Cheek Racing Cars:

The car is not designed by the computer, the computer saves
a lot of time in calculations and provides much more exact
measurements for the production process.The engineers design
the car, the engineers and the drivers develop the car.Just like
it has always been.And the development driver is just as crucial
as he ever was.

The key to being an excellent development driver is the
ability to do very consistent lap times at 9/10ths.That way,any
variation in lap time during a test program will be down to the mods
done to the car,not the varying effort of an inconsisten driver.

The chief designer of course basis his designs on input from both
machines and drivers. If either the machines or drivers are unable
to return reliable data then it usually results in: Garbage in, garbage out.
This years McLaren being a good example.

[The_Z_Man]

Quote

Originally posted by Breadmaster
Didn't you know Byrne is a figurehead? MS does all the designing at Maranello...

What's so ludicrous about it ? I've read that he single handedly rebuilt Ferrari and is the only one standing in Front of the Williams/McLaren domination.

The_Z_Man

[TAB666]

Quote

Originally posted by The_Z_Man
What's so ludicrous about it ? I've read that he single handedly rebuilt Ferrari and is the only one standing in Front of the Williams/McLaren domination.

The_Z_Man

Dont forget DC ;)

[Fiorano]

A very neutral car would benefit any team the most, allowing their drivers to alter it's behavior to their liking and style. A team could then have two very differnt drivers, yet get the best out of both of them.

[POLAR]

In my point of view, Mika is a much faster and spetacular driver than Schummi, but only when he is the exactly right mood, and of course with a good setup. That said, Michael is a much more effective one, really fast, com rain or shine, but lacking showmanship (in my humble point of view). As i said before: Mika can create magic on track, while Michael is all bout winning.
Praise to both.

Polar

[man from martinlaakso]

POLAR, you wrote : "In my point of view, Mika is a much faster and spetacular driver than Schummi, but only when he is the exactly right mood, and of course with a good setup. That said, Michael is a much more effective one, really fast, com rain or shine, but lacking showmanship (in my humble point of view). As i said before: Mika can create magic on track, while Michael is all bout winning.
Praise to both. "


I think, that I can agree with that. Although I don't think, that MH would be much faster than MS in stabile conditions. In changing conditions MS is a more dynamic driver. When we are talking about MH's mood, the decising things were : how well the time trial went and how good the balance of the car was. The balance was the most important think, if MH was lacking that, his performance curve dropped heavily and I think, that in some races this affected him also mentally. So it was first a failure in the whole package : team, car and it's set-ups and just after that MH might had an unmotivated race. Not the other way round.

[maclaren]

Quote

Originally posted by Smooth
IF IF IF.....
As Brundle has also stated: given equal cars, setup to their liking, Mika would probably take pole, Michael the race.

This is completely false, BS

I can't believe some people are still saying this. Ferrari didn't few years back have special qualifying engine, that fooled many people

EDIT: MS is better qualifier which I agree in some degree. MH is relatively stronger in races, when compared to DC or MS!

[Fiorano]

How you misunderstand 'Mika would take the pole, but Michael would win the race' to mean Michael is the better qualifier is beyond me.

[maclaren]

Quote

Originally posted by Fiorano
'Mika would take the pole, but Michael would win the race'

Where has Brundle said that? And even if he has said that, it doesn't mean it is absolyte thruth if there is one.

[Arrow]

Brundle is a good commentator but his views on mika and michael are badly wrong.
Michael in his rookie year was faster in comparsion to brundle than mika was in his 4th year.
Martin was even older and slower when mika got to him:)

[Fiorano]

Let's see, whom am I to beleive...

Hmmmm...

Anyone?

[jpf]

Well for those who are curious, here is the end of the article:

"So, who is the better? I've got to stick my neck out, haven't I? You'd never forgive me if I signed off without giving one or other of them the nod. Let me put it this way. Of all the drivers I've raced against, the best was Senna. No question. In terms of the whole package, Michael runs him pretty close, with Mika a close third.
 
In terms of raw, God-given talent, Senna is still number one - but it's Mika, not Michael, who comes closest. If Michael Schumacher and Mika Hakkinen were in the same Formula 1 team, with the same equipment, during qualifying, in the dry, and you asked me to stake my kids' building society accounts on who would bag the pole, I'd put my money on Mika.
 
But Michael would win the race.
 
There, I've said it."

-jpf

[wati]

Quote

Originally posted by POLAR
That said, Michael is a much more effective one, really fast, com rain or shine, but lacking showmanship (in my humble point of view). As i said before: Mika can create magic on track, while Michael is all bout winning.
Praise to both.

Polar

Lacking showmanship? Take another look at 98 Hungary or 99 Imola. Hell of a show, if you ask me.

Wattie

[Menace]

Quote

Originally posted by Arrow
Brundle is a good commentator but his views on mika and michael are badly wrong.
Michael in his rookie year was faster in comparsion to brundle than mika was in his 4th year.
Martin was even older and slower when mika got to him:)

You are so full of it...do you really expect anybody in their right mind to beleive your BS more then somebodys that has actually been both MH and MS team-mate?

Personally I think that article by brundle is the best comparison between MH and MS ever written. I dont know what it is with you and putting down everything that MH has achieved? Do you really beleive your *facts* should be taken as a more experted opinions than somebody like Brundels?!


I think most people recognice Mikas ability to be faster over a single lap then Michael, but Michael being more consistant and faster on Sundays and in changing weather conditions. This is what MAKES MICHAEL SOOO GOOD. His consistancy that is, his ability to give 110% at almost all times.

Michael has created his own greatness to a large extent. Shure he is very talented by nature, but the effort and passion that he gives to the sport he loves , has made him one of the best ever...

Enough said.

[Sir Frank]

Well said

and the Brundle article is one of the best ones in F1M.

[se7en_24]

Quote

Originally posted by Arrow
Brundle is a good commentator but his views on mika and michael are badly wrong.

You gotta love armchair racers so much havent you

[D. Heimgartner]

So what are the chances (in %) that M. Hakkinen comes to Ferrari in 2003 to partner with 5xWDC M.Schumacher? (do not equate the 5th WDC into this factor, for it is only used in an adjectival sense)

[Arrow]

Quote

Originally posted by Menace



You are so full of it...do you really expect anybody in their right mind to beleive your BS more then somebodys that has actually been both MH and MS team-mate?

Personally I think that article by brundle is the best comparison between MH and MS ever written. I dont know what it is with you and putting down everything that MH has achieved? Do you really beleive your *facts* should be taken as a more experted opinions than somebody like Brundels?!


I think most people recognice Mikas ability to be faster over a single lap then Michael, but Michael being more consistant and faster on Sundays and in changing weather conditions. This is what MAKES MICHAEL SOOO GOOD. His consistancy that is, his ability to give 110% at almost all times.

Michael has created his own greatness to a large extent. Shure he is very talented by nature, but the effort and passion that he gives to the sport he loves , has made him one of the best ever...

Enough said.

Brundles racing experience doesnt make him read a stop watch better than me.
Mika and michael have shared 2 team-mates over the years,brundle and herbert.
Michael has been clearly quicker in comparison to these 2 than mika has been.
Whats your explanation for this?

Quote

I think most people recognice Mikas ability to be faster over a single lap then Michael

Keep dreaming