43 replies to this topic

[Megatron]

I saw a quote the other day where Sato (Honda's new hire for Jordan) said that it meant a lot to him to "deserve" to be in F1 because Nakajama didn't. I know that Nakajama got in almost totally because Honda wanted a Jap to drive, but I thought that was a little harsh.

Driving for Lotus at a time when everythng revolved around Senna and also during the terrible 100 and 101s in 88 and 89, I think he showed that, while perhaps not the greatest in the field, he was not out of his league. Sure he DNQd the Lotus twice in 1988 when they had the Honda engine, but Piquet was not exactly performing miracles in the car.

Whats your take on the man from Japan?

[dmj]

He wasn't in my top 20 of worst F1 drivers I've seen in last 20+ years.

[Haddock]

Yes, indeed there have been plenty worse men get drives in F1 over time. I don't think he would have been in the frame for the Lotus drive had he not been Japanese, but he wasn't embarrassingly bad.

Indeed, in the wet he could actually be quite quick when the mood took him. Witness his performance in the rain in Australia 1989. From what I remember he was very small and very light and the general reckoning was that he simply didn't have the strength to be quick in a modern F1 car in normal conditions

[Kuwashima]

I think Satoru was quite good... he was certainly not out of his league.

But as for Japanese drivers who "deserved" to be in F1, I hardly think upstart Sato can say he is the first, if that was what he was saying! What about Ukyo Katayama? Sure he threw it into the scenery every now and again, but Murray Walker once said in Adelaide, 1994:

"Ukyo Katayama, undoubtedly the best Formula One driver that Grand Prix racing has ever produced."

Here's a link to the MP3 sound of it...

[Megatron]

[man]

I would say he is of a similar standard to Pedro Diniz for example. He was often at the centre of Murray Walker and James Hunt jokes in the BBC era but on his day he was a steady driver who could score a handful of points. I remember Detroit '87 and that carazy on board camera footage when he was driving through cars! Also Mexico '87 when he forgot to brake at the end of the long straight! When driving at Suzuka, I would go so far as to say he was a good driver, I remember him being very late on the brakes for turn 1 a number of times and I can recall him passing a number of cars on the outside there during his F1 career. When you compare him to Dumfries, he is not as bad as people make out.

[mikedeering]

Nakajima was pretty good - as has already been said, he got his initial F1 contract through Honda, but once in F1 he did enough to deserve his place. Tyrrell signed him on merit for 1990 I believe - and were rewarded with Honda engines for 91!

He regularly ran Piquet close in 1989 and took the fastest lap at Adelaide with a memorable run to 4th that year.

He also took 4th at Silverstone in 1987 (admittedly he was slowest of the Honda cars!).

In his first 3 GPs, didn't he finish 7-6-5. That's pretty good for a rookie, even with the best engine. The 87 car was not exactly the best chassis to bear the Lotus badge...

As for the Mexico braking incident - v. amusing! Although I think he was caught out by Cheever's Arrows braking early, IIRC.

[Zawed]

I rate him as being only marginally better than a pay driver, which he effectively was being a Honda driver. He was capable of some good drives, and embarressed Nelson Piquet at Lotus especially in 1989. One of the best wet drivers in his time, set the fastest lap at the wet Aussie GP in 1989.

[man]

I don't think Tyrrell signed him on merit. I think they signed him so that they could get Honda power, although I may be wrong. back to 1987, although the Lotus was never a match for Williams, and the chassis was not as good as McLaren's, it was probably a better package than the rest of the teams with exception to Ferrari late in the season.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Satoru did his best results on fast circuits but ofted struggled at slower circuits.

I my opinion his credentials clearly made him deserve a chance in Formula One. However he might have done a season or two too much.

[molive]

In Brazil, Satoru was called "Katagrama", playing with his name, and it means something like "catch-grass".


Surely SN wasn´t one of the worse I´ve seen. He wasn´t lucky either, having to deal with the likes of Piquet...

[mikedeering]

Not sure about the Tyrrell Honda tie-in - but Satoru signed in 1989. Why didn't Honda engines to Tyrrell for 1990? Presumably a contract with McLaren forbid this?

Anyway, Tyrrell stuck with Ford whatever in 1990.

[Geza Sury]

Back to the original question: definately! Don't forget Nakajima was a three time Japanese F-2 champion before he came to F1. His best drive as some of you mentioned was Adelaide 1989. He not only set quickest lap, but chased Patrese hard for third place! He was quite impressive in 1988, he was close to Piquet in qualifyings, and actually outqualified the world champion at Spa. He was also quicker at this same circuit a year later, but both he and Piquet failed to qualify!

My last thought is that beside his driving abilities, he certainly entertained the crowd with him harmless spins and off-track excursions unlike the drivers today.

[man]

I remember receiving a letter from Tyrrell (way way before the 1991 season, cant pin point exactly when- possibly as far back as before the '90 season) stating that they would have Honda power for 1991. I remember being surprised by how early they anounced the news. Tyrrell had great hopes for the Honda engine, shame it didn't work out as well as they wanted. The pace that Renault and Honda(V12) were developing their engines certainly didn't help.

[Richard Jenkins]

It interested me the other day when I learnt that Kazuyoshi Hoshino had expected to be the one driver Honda chose & not Nakajima & when he was overlooked (apparently on age only) he wanted nothing to do with F1 for years. I wonder how Hoshino would've done & whether anybody would've looked upon him differently, on his past performances & Japanese drivers generally, if Hoshino had gone on to drive in the Hondas for (no more than) three years before retiring from F1.

[josh.lintz]

I confess to being a Naka-san fan, for he provided the in-car camera for the '87 season. I think Satoru did an okay job in F1, but his performances were like a light switch...was Nakajima on or off? The slow, "scared of the walls", one? Or the faster, fearless one?

In 1988, the Lotus was crap. Piquet was probably so demotivated, that he gave little input on the testing of the T100. Nakajima, for all his experience, probably couldn't do it all himself. He was faster than Piquet and charging at Spa, until the engine broke. (He must have had to save a lot of "face" not to get pissed at that!).

He was as quick as Piquet at Suzuka, but otherwise was nowhere during 1988-89. Until Adelaide '89...just a few more laps might have brought him a podium. In 1990, I think he did a good backup job to Alesi with three 6th places; Phoenix, Monza, and Suzuka. After Phoenix in 1991, he may as well have retired from F1.

All in all, I recall David Hobbs' quote during the 1990 Austrailian GP; "...Nakajima's a blue-eyed boy, not a golden boy..." But I think if he got some sort of F1 seat in 1986, he might have been more prepared for '87 and beyond. Some strength training might have helped to! But I think he can be called the best Japanese F1 driver, couldn't he?

[king_crud]

It seems a bit odd that he did well in the wet and "drivers" circuits, and crap at the others. Usually drivers circuits and the wet sort out the wheat from the chaff

[Kuwashima]

But I think he can be called the best Japanese F1 driver, couldn't he?

No way, IMHO. Katayama has that title sewn up. Even if it's just for his 1994 year. But Sato may take over the mantle...it remains to be seen *insert Twilight Zone theme here*

[BRG]

Originally posted by josh.lintz
But I think he can be called the best Japanese F1 driver, couldn't he?

I reckon Aguri Suzuki or Ukyo Katayama were better drivers. Anyway the title is probably heading elsewhere once Sato gets up to speed. He is real F1 material by anybody's standards, not just a "blue-eyed boy" (although I know he has Honda's backing).

Nakajima probably earned a go in F1, but he got far more chances than he would otherwise have had because of Honda's support. Had he been (say) a young Italian driver of the time, he might have had a couple of years and then slipped out of F1 as so many others did (such as Modena, Larini, Morbidelli or Caffi for instance). But he was (is) a personable chap and you couldn't help liking him.

Japan should have representation in F1 - they are a major motor racing nations and car maker. It has long bemused me that they do not produce better drivers. It is not a cultural or physical thing - after all, in Moto GPs, there plenty of top class Japanese riders. I hope that Takuma Sato will be the breakthrough man.

[Rediscoveryx]

Takaya Todoroki was pretty good

[dmj]

I never understood why Aguri Suzuki didn't stay longer in F1 - both him and Eric Bernard looked very promising to me, but it didn't help their careers too much...

[Megatron]

What is intersting is that Naka actually wore Honda decals on his helmet in 1990 when Tyrrell was powered by Ford. Of course, Naka came with personal sponsorship from Epson as well as Honda, even if they weren't suppling engines (until 1991).

About Suzuki. He really peaked with that podium in 1990. He was put in the Ligier for half the year in 1995 because of his connections with Mugen/Honda and didn't really impress. A good driver though.

I thought Takagi was a wonderfully quick driver, but didn't have the stamina or the will to learn English.

[dmj]

Stamina indeed could be problem for Japanese drivers, even if I don't quite understand why - it is about the only way to explain why they aren't so succesfull in 500cc moto GPs as in lesser classes...

[holiday]

Originally posted by josh.lintz
All in all, I recall David Hobbs' quote during the 1990 Austrailian GP; "...Nakajima's a blue-eyed boy, not a golden boy..." But I think if he got some sort of F1 seat in 1986, he might have been more prepared for '87 and beyond. Some strength training might have helped to! But I think he can be called the best Japanese F1 driver, couldn't he?

No way, mate. Ukyo was much better. Didn't have even remotely as good cars as Nakajima, but put in nevertheless some solid races like a 5th place at imola 1994. At that stage of his career his 'king of spin-offs' title was surely undeserving.

As Michael Schumacher himself put it (end of 1994 season) :

"I was very much impressed by his performances in 1994. I think he has made a quantum leap forward. Following him on the track, I often wonder how in the world he can drive that fast. I simply don't get it."

maybe even getting a little bit over the top.


As for Nakajima, I second dmj insosfar as SN wasn't in my top 20 of worst F1 drivers I've seen in last 15 years. But he surely as hell is in my top five of worst drivers in top teams or competitive midfielders in the last 15 years! Had the unique luck to be Honda's favourite in their Golden Period from the mid-eighties to the early-nineties and left f1 in the moment as Honda decided to pull out of the sport.

To answer the initial question: No, in terms of performance Nakajima didn't deserve a f1 seat. Not only in my eyes he is still viewed as the prototype of the modern pay driver in formula1. That's probably why Sato recently was eager to distance himself from him a bit.


Anyway, I expect Sato to be in a entirely different league than both Katayama and Nakajima. Imo he has all the ability to be the first Japanese driver in f1 due to merit rather than money.

[man]

I remember the early laps of Monza 1994 when Katayama was putting the Williams of Hill and Coulthard under pressure...to the point where DC had to take defensive lines! Amazing! Why did Katayama always rock his head in the cockpit?

Also Hockenheim that season he would have probably finished on the podium but for technical problems. A very impressive season for Katayama in 1994.

I also remember that classic shot of the first corner at Mexico 1988 when Nakajima was for a second I think ahead of Senna's McLaren, or maybe it was Piquet ahead of Senna. Anyway, Nakajima was certainly ahead of Berger and Alboreto. Amazing! Why were the Lotus so quick that weekend?

[Rediscoveryx]

I'm not sure, but it was probably due to the high altitude of the Hermanos Rodriguez circuit giving the turbo cars in general, and the Honda cars in particular a greater advantage

[josh.lintz]

I felt Nakajima had a better F1 career than Katayama, who only had a good '94 season. Suzuki was rather inconsistent, too. His '90 season was very good, but everything tailed off after that. Aguri should have scored some points with the Mugen-engined Footwork, but never did.

Still, it's tough to compare them; what might have happened if Kazuyoshi Hoshino, Masahiro Hasemi, and Noritake Takahara drove in more types international racing, and furthered their F1 careers. I think at least one of them would have done better than the late-80's wave of Japanese F1 drivers.

[Louis Mr. F1]

Katayama retired very early in the 94 Hockenheim race after Hill tried to pass Katayama for a position (3rd?) and the two touched. That was the race Hakkinen caused a pile up at the start and lots of cars retired.
Saturo was williams' test driver in 86, fine tuning the engines. Honda requested Williams to take Satoru as their race driver but Frank refused. Lotus got Honda and Saturo in 87. I think it's contribute to the rift of Honda and Williams to some extent. Saturo is also famous for making outside pass at Suzuka's 1st turn, which was quite impressive.
Saturo was in good position several times until the car broke eg. 88 Mexico, 4th until passed by both Ferraris of Berger and Alboreto. and San Marino again 4th (that's the race all 4 Honda cars in the top 4 until the 2 Tyrrells retired)
A silly/embarrassing moment of Satoru was when he went off in the 89 Hungarian GP, he tried to spin around to get back in the right direction, but only to spin his rear into the barrier and caused his retirement from the race.
When he announced his retirement at the 91 Hockenheim, he gave each driver a present.

[man]

Didn't Murray Walker give Nakajima a lens cap to him as a present?!

[deangelis86]

Originally posted by Louis Mr. F1
When he announced his retirement at the 91 Hockenheim, he gave each driver a present.

Rather like one R.Arnoux who retired two seasons earlier. Everyone received a rather cheap-looking wallet....but at least the thought was there!

[William Hunt]

Originally posted by dmj
He wasn't in my top 20 of worst F1 drivers I've seen in last 20+ years.

So, can U produce that list for us dear dmj ?

[Haddock]

Well, I sat and thought about it and produced this list of the twenty worst drivers I've seen in F1 during the last seventeen years (I've restricted myself to drivers I've seen race, if only on the television. I've not restricted myself from including drivers I only saw race as an eight years old. I've got some of the old races on video and the autosports for the time, so I trust my judgment there).

Some choices, like Jean-Denis Deletraz and Giovanna Amati, are no brainers. Others, such as Julian Bailey, Jean Louis Schlesser and Oscar Larrauri are perhaps less so, as all, to varying extents, have shown themselves to be quite competitive away from F1. But then 20 is quite a lot of professional racing drivers. The worst ten is probably an easier list to pick.

Jean Denis Deletraz
Giovanna Amati
Paul Belmondo
Naoki Hattori
Riccardo Rosset
Alex Yoong
Julian Bailey
Adrian Campos
Pascal Fabre
Volker Weidler
Michael Bartels
Hideki Noda
Phillipe Adams
Giovanni Lavaggi
Norberto Fontana
Gaston Mazzacane
Tarso Marques
Jean Louis Schlesser
Oscar Larrauri
Fabrizio Barbazza

[Kuwashima]

Ahhh it reads like a Who's Who from you know where...!

And even *I* think some of those are a little tough!!

[Haddock]

Ah, F1rejects. I've been trying to look at that site for a while now, but it always crashes my browser (I use some awful Linux freeware thing, so its probably not a problem with your site per se).

Some of the twenty are a little harsh. Can't think of anyone obvious I've missed out. I mean there's Franco Forini and Allen Berg, but then they were driving such awful cars (mid eighties Osellas) that its hard to know how good or bad they really were.

The same could be said of Weidler in an 89 Rial, but he was comprehensively embarrassed by Christian Danner, who was no hotshoe himself.

And I guess Marques wasn't too embarrassingly bad during his brief mid-nineties stint with Minardi. Maybe Alonso made him look worse than he was

[BRG]

May I, in a fit of inverse patriotism, offer up Jonathan Palmer and Mike Beuttler as sacrifices as well?

[Haddock]

Mike Beuttler: Yes

Jonathan Palmer: No.

Palmer did a pretty good job in the Tyrrell in the late eighties. He was a lot quicker than Rottengather in the Zakspeed during their time together in the team. He certainly put Alboreto in the shade in the Tyrrell in 1989. He was a lot quicker than Bailey too.

Sure he was rather humiliated by Alesi in the Tyrrell, and I suspect he'd be the first to admit he was no Senna, but he was an unexceptional, rather than an awful Grnd Prix driver.

[Rediscoveryx]

Palmer wasn't bad at all

[William Hunt]

Jonathan Palmer was an EXCELLENT driver, he even set a fastest race lap once in a small Tyrrell (from my heart, I believe it was at Detroit '88). He wasn't spectacular at all but very clean , sober and technically strong.

[William Hunt]

Jean Denis Deletraz
Giovanna Amati
Paul Belmondo
Naoki Hattori
Riccardo Rosset
Alex Yoong
Julian Bailey
Adrian Campos
Pascal Fabre
Volker Weidler
Michael Bartels
Hideki Noda
Phillipe Adams
Giovanni Lavaggi
Norberto Fontana
Gaston Mazzacane
Tarso Marques
Jean Louis Schlesser
Oscar Larrauri
Fabrizio Barbazza [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks Haddock. Very interesting list but I don't agree with all of them.

I would certainly incluide Deletraz, Amati, Belmondo, Rosset, Campos , Hattori, Weidler, Bartels, Adams, Lavaggi and Mazzacane. I wouldn't include the others in a bad driver list.

Certainly not Hideki Noda (who had bad luck in his carreer but did an impressive job in his 3 races for Larrousse, he should have received more chances)

As for pascal Fabre : the guy couldn't do much with the material he had. He did finish a lot of races and was very constant. Fabre was certainly a reliable and (if he had the right car) could have been very quick.

Oscar Larrauri has proven himself as a quality driver in sportscar races, U can't show much potential in a Eurobrun off course.

Fabrizio Barbazza took a podium in the Indy 500 and some points in a Minardi, not the greatest driver, but not a bad one either.

Norberto Fontana beat Ralf Schumacher to the German F3 title (Ralf came only 3rd), and was fast in F.Nippon so he can't be bad. He was VERY dissapointing in the Sauber though.

Alex Yoong should probably be put in the list but let's just give him the benifit of the doubt and see how he does this year. Although he's not that talented he seems like a nice guy and does provide Minardi with the necessary funds with his sponsors.

Tarqo Marques impressed in F3000 with even a pole at Pau and victory at Barcelona and had a stunning f1 debut at Sao Paulo, qualifying his Minardi high up the grid. But afte some CART races he didn't perform strong at all this year. Still, I rate him higher than Yoong who couldn't even qualify in some European F3000 races.

Jean-Louis Schlesser was very poor in F1 (couldn't qualify the March, which was normal but ran weak in the Williams at Monza). Based on his F1 results he belongs in the list. But if U look at his sportscars & Paris Dakar results he shouldn't.

Julian Bailey never delivered the goods in the Tyrrell, did manage to score points for Lotus but wasn't that good there either. He was supposed to drive for Brabham, replacing Van de Poele who had moved to Fondmetal but it didn't materialise as Brabham went into bankrupcy. Can't dissagree with him in the list but he wasn't that bad.



Conclusion : I would CERTAINLY remove HIDEKI NODA , who did quite well.

[Haddock]

I take your point. Anyway, I was just trying to come up with the 20 worst drivers to have raced in F1 since I have been watching. Inevitably, given that F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport (tm?) even most of the worst drivers really weren't that bad.

Also, I was choosing drivers based on their performances in F1, rather than elsewhere (eg Larrauri and Schlesser in sportscars, Barbazza in Indycars).

And somebody mentioned the number twenty, which means including some who are, well, borderline cases.

The end result was a list where some (notably Lavaggi, Fontana, Amati and Belmondo) were a lot worse than others.

And yeah, I'll substitute Huub Rottengather for Hideki Noda.

[dmj]

Actually I published my top 20 sometime ago in a Croatian newspaper but it was almost entirely different list - I tried to exclude all these people who drove only hopeless cars (but I must admit Rottengather was on my list). So on top of my list were likes of Ricardo Zunino and Johnny Dumfries, people who embarassed themselves in really good cars. And, for certain reasons, there were some drivers who certainly weren't "worst" but nevertheless had some obvious faults that puts them on my list: Michael Schumacher, David Coulthard, Damon Hill or Michael Andretti, for instance... However, Nakajima doesn't belong to any such a list...

[Haddock]

Yes, Johnny Dumfries was something of an oversight on my part.

Substitute him for Barbazza and the list is pretty accurate for the period 1985-2001 in my opinion.

Michael Schumacher does not belong in any such list. Nor even, for that matter Damon Hill. But then I get the impression the 'spirit' of your list was different from mine.

Excluding people who only drove hopeless cars in understandable, but on the other hand, it stands to reason that the very worst drivers would only get a seat in the worst teams.

[Rediscoveryx]

I'm not so sure about Johnny Dumfries. He had a great deal of bad luck, and wasn't exactly given the same opportunities as his team-mate. He had a few good races - Paul Ricard and Hungaroring were solid performances on his part.

[dmj]

I get the impression the 'spirit' of your list was different from mine.

Yes, certainly... Schumacher entry was based on fact that he would be in jail if he deliberatly run his car into someone else's car on public road instead of racing circuit. Hill was there (even if I admire him both as a person and as a driver) because he proved that in today's F1 someone who simply don't know how to overtake could become a champion... Your list is much more based on real lack of skills to be a F1 driver. I am only sad you started with 1985, thus not including my all time favorites Ricardo Zunino and Eliseo Salazar.