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'Autocourse' 'Top-Tens'


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#1 mikedeering

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Posted 08 January 2002 - 13:19

I have collected Autocourse from 1990 onwards, and have always been interested in the Top Tens each year.

While bored in the off-season, I though about doing a Points Championship of Top Tens - (hey, it's another useless application of statistics that will prove nothing!)

You could offer 20-16-12-10-8-6-4-3-2-1 points for 1-10 each year.

The problem of course is that I have no idea of the top tens pre-1990. So I can work out the current crop of drivers points - MS, MH, DC, RB etc, but not the likes of Senna, Lauda etc.

The 2000 edition listed all the number ones from the inception of the top ten in 1966, but not 2-10 each time. So does anyone have that information?

Obviously there are flaws in this - the Top Ten didn't start until 1966 and is based purely on one editor's judgement each time.

Strange points I've noticed just from 1990+ - MS was not listed in 1999 as he did not compete in "nearly" all the races as Autocourse puts it. From memory, I think he started at least half - probably more like 10/16.

DC in 1994 started 8/16 and is ranked 5th. So I think Autocourse dodged the issue on rating MS for 99!!!

Also, MH has never ranked 1st, although was 2nd between 1998-2000.

Number ones from 1966 onwards:

1966-67 - Jim Clark
1968-73 - Jackie Stewart
1974 - Emerson Fittipaldi
1975-78 - Niki Lauda
1979-81 - Alan Jones
1982 - no #1 chosen in tribute to Gilles Villeneuve
1983 - Nelson Piquet
1984-87 - Alain Prost
1988 - Ayrton Senna
1989 - Nigel Mansell
1990 - Alain Prost
1991 - Ayrton Senna
1992 - Nigel Mansell
1993 - Ayrton Senna
1994 - Damon Hill
1995-96 - Michael Schumacher
1997 - Jacques Villeneuve
1998 - Michael Schumacher
1999 - Heinz Harald Frentzen
2000-01 - Michael Schumacher

Can anyone else fill in the blanks pre 1990?

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#2 Chico Landi

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Posted 08 January 2002 - 14:50

I only have 1987 edition (french edition, don't if it's the same top 10 as in English edition) :
1 - Prost
2 - Mansell
3 - Senna
4 - Berger
5 - Piquet
6 - Boutsen
7 - Alboreto
8 - Patrese
9 - Johansson
10 - Palmer


Prost 1st and Piquet 5th??? Personally, it makes no sense to me...

#3 mikedeering

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Posted 08 January 2002 - 16:11

Thanks! I imagine the French version is the same as the English - but who knows?

1987 looks very interesting - Piquet 5th!

To be fair, he was hardly a convincing WDC - he won only 3 times (lowest wins for WDC since 1983) and all were inherited - he would not have won in Germany, Hungary or Italy without Prost, Mansell (mechanical) and Senna (went off passing backmaker) having problems in the last few laps.

#4 Haddock

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Posted 08 January 2002 - 16:35

I think it must be the same. I have Autocourses running from 1985-93 but they're in storage at my mothers house, as I've no room for them where I am now.

Piquet was rated only 5th in 1987. And not without a certain amount of justification. It was hardly his most inspiring year in motorsport to put it mildly. Only Mansell's tendency to shoot himself in the foot rather a lot and the sheer superiority of the Williams in 87 gifted him the title.

Looking at the list -- Hill rated no 1 in 1994 ?

That must be more because of Schumacher's dubious title winning manouvre at Australia than any delusion on the part of the editor that Hill was actually a better driver surely ???

#5 dmj

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Posted 08 January 2002 - 16:53

Wh shouldn't Hill be No. 1 in 1994? He was supposed to be No. 2 to Senna in Williams and after that :cry: day in Imola he suddenly was a team leader, fighting for championship... He was really good in a role where no one expected him before the season. Besides it, he should really win that title - we'll never know the truth about that accident in Australia... He was the best one in 1994 in same manner as Frentzen was in 1999.

#6 mikedeering

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Posted 08 January 2002 - 17:18

Alan Henry (who has judged the top 10 since 1985 IIRC) has stated that for 1990 Senna was #1 until crashing into Prost. Similarly, in 1994 and 1997 MS was rated #1 until his incidents with Hill and Villeneuve.

So Autocourse obviously doesn't approve of driving WDC rivals off the track in title showdowns - quite correct.

Incidentally, Senna was so livid with being rated #2 in 1990 he refused to write the introduction for Autocourse in 1991!

Also, James Hunt hassled the publisher to reveal the 1976 top 10 before publication - on hearing he was #2 to Lauda, he stated "I completely agree."

The one I found interesting was Mansell #1 for 1989. What order were Senna and Prost? I think rated Mansell #1 quite shocking (he was 4th in the WDC that year). Then again, Senna amde countless mistakes in 1989, and Prost hardly drove brilliantly - again a case of his team mate throwing the WDC away rather than him winning it - as in 1987 at Williams.

#7 Rice

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Posted 08 January 2002 - 18:54

Here a the top ten from 1975-1989

1975
1 Niki Lauda
2 Emerson Fittipaldi
3 Ronnie Peterson
4 Jody Scheckter
5 James Hunt
6 Carlos Pace
7 Carlos Reutemann
8 Clay Regazzoni
9 Tony Brise
10 Jochen Mass
11 Tom Pryce
12 Jean-Pierre Jarier

1976
1 Niki Lauda
2 James Hunt
3 Patrick Depailler
4 Ronnie Peterson
5 Jody Scheckter
6 Mario Andretti
7 Jacques Lafitte
8 Carlos Pace
9 Clay Regazzoni
10 John Watson

1977
1 Niki Lauda
2 James Hunt
3 Mario Andretti
4 Jody Scheckter
5 John Watson
6 Gunnar Nilsson
7 Patrick Depailler
8 jacques Lafitte
9 Carlos Reutemann
10 Jochen Mass

1978
1 Niki Lauda
2 Mario Andretti
3 Carlos Reutemann
4 Alan Jones
5 Patrick Depailler
6 Jody Scheckter
7 Gilles Villeneuve
8 Jacques Lafitte
9 John Watson
10 Riccardo Patrese

1979
1 Alan Jones
2 Giles Villeneuve
3 Jody Scheckter
4 Jacques Lafitte
5 carlos Reutemann
6 Jean-Pierre Jabouille
7 Clay Regazzoni
8 Rene Arnoux
9 Nelson Piquet
10 Mario Andretti

1980
1 Alan Jones
2 Nelson Piquet
3 Gilles Villeneuve
4 Didier Pironi
5 Rene Arnoux
6 Jacques Lafitte
7 Jean-Pierre Jabouille
8 Carlos Reutemann
9 Elio de Angelis
10 Bruno Giacomelli

1981
1 Alan Jones
2 Alain Prost
3 Gilles Villeneuve
4 Nelson Piquet
5 Carlos Reutemann
6 Didier Pironi
7 Jacques Lafitte
8 John Watson
9 Rene Arnoux
10 Elio de Angelis

1982
1 -
2 Keke Rosberg
3 Alain Prost
4 Nelson Piquet
5 Niki Lauda
6 John Watson
7 Rene Arnoux
8 Michele Alboreto
9 Riccardo Patrese
10 Elio de Angelis

1983
1 Nelson Piquet
2 Alain Prost
3 Patrick Tambay
4 Rene Arnoux
5 Keke Rosberg
6 John Watson
7 Eddie Cheever
8 Derek Warwick
9 Niki Lauda
10 Andrea de Cesaris

1984
1 Alain Prost
2 Nelson Piquet
3 Niki Lauda
4 keke Rosberg
5 Elio de Angelis
6 Michele Alboreto
7 Derek Warwick
8 Ayrton Senna
9 Nigel Mansell
10 Patrick Tambay

1985
1 Alain Prost
2 Ayrton Senna
3 Keke Rosberg
4 Nelson Piquet
5 Michele Alboreto
6 Nigel Mansell
7 Niki Lauda
8 Elio de Angelis
9 Stefan Johansson
10 Thierry Boutsen

1986
1 Alain Prost
2 Nigel Mansell
3 Ayrton Senna
4 Nelson Piquet
5 Gerhard Berger
6 Stefan Johansson
7 Michele Alboreto
8 Keke Rosberg
9 Rene Arnoux
10 Riccardo Patrese

1987
1 Alain Prost
2 Nigel Mansell
3 Ayrton Senna
4 gerhard Berger
5 Nelson Piquet
6 Thierry Boutsen
7 Michele Alboreto
8 Stefan Johansson
9 Riccardo Patrese
10 Jonathan Palmer

1988
1 Ayrton Senna
2 Alain Prost
3 gerhard Berger
4 Nigel Mansell
5 Ivan Capelli
6 Thierry Boutsen
7 Alessandro Nannini
8 Michele Alboreto
9 Derek Warwick
10 Jonathan Palmer

1989
1 Nigel Mansell
2 Ayrton Senna
3 Alain Prost
4 Riccardo Patrese
5 Gerhard Berger
6 Thierry Boutsen
7 Alessandro Nannini
8 Alex Caffi
9 Derek Warwick
10 Pierluigi Martini

#8 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 08 January 2002 - 18:59

Thank you very much :up:

If you don't mind I would be very happy to see the top ten's for the 90's as well :cool:

#9 Rice

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Posted 08 January 2002 - 19:05

your turn

hihihihihihihihihihi

#10 Bernd

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Posted 08 January 2002 - 22:24

Can someone post the original Top Ten from 1966. Ta

#11 mikedeering

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 09:15

Top Tens from 1991 onwards:

1991
1 Senna
2 Mansell
3 Patrese
4 Prost
5 Berger
6 Piquet
7 Alesi
8 Martini
9 de Cesaris
10 Blundell

1992
1 Mansell
2 Senna
3 Schumacher
4 Berger
5 Patrese
6 Alesi
7 Brundle
8 Hakkinen
9 Herbert
10 Alboreto

1993
1 Senna
2 Prost
3 Schumacher
4 Alesi
5 Hill
6 Brundle
7 Fittipaldi
8 Berger
9 Blundell
10 Barrichello

1994
1 Hill
2 Schumacher
3 Berger
4 Hakkinen
5 Coulthard
6 Alesi
7 Katayama
8 Irvine
9 Barrichello
10 Frentzen

1995
1 Schumacher
2 Hill
3 Frentzen
4 Berger
5 Alesi
6 Coulthard
7 Herbert
8 Hakkinen
9 Irvine
10 Blundell

1996
1 Schumacher
2 Hill
3 Villeneuve
4 Hakkinen
5 Alesi
6 Berger
7 Coulthard
8 Panis
9 Irvine
10 Frentzen

1997
1 Villeneuve
2 M Schumacher
3 Hakkinen
4 Coulthard
5 Alesi
6 Frentzen
7 Fisichella
8 Barrichello
9 Irvine
10 Herbert

1998
1 M Schumacher
2 Hakkinen
3 Villeneuve
4 Irvine
5 Coulthard
6 Alesi
7 Hill
8 R Schumacher
9 Fisichella
10 Wurz

1999
1 Frentzen
2 Hakkinen
3 R Schumacher
4 Irvine
5 Barrichello
6 Coulthard
7 Villeneuve
8 Herbert
9 Fisichella
10 Trulli

2000
1 M Schumacher
2 Hakkinen
3 Villeneuve
4 Coulthard
5 Barrichello
6 Trulli
7 Button
8 Alesi
9 R Schumacher
10 Frentzen

2001
1 M Schumacher
2 Coulthard
3 Montoya
4 R Schumacher
5 Hakkinen
6 Barrichello
7 Heidfeld
8 Raikkonen
9 Fisichella
10 Trulli

Oh, and Thanks for the 1975-1989! I have 1990, but the book is in storage, so I can't quickly check the numbers.

#12 Bernd

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 09:23

Yeah that is why I can't check my 66. Come on some one must have it to hand!

#13 stevew01

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 10:29

Here are 1966 to 1974

1966
1. Clark
2. Surtees
3. Rindt
4. Stewart
5. Gurney
6. Brabham
7. Hulme
8. Hill
9. Bandini
10. McLaren

1967
1. Clark
2. Rindt
3. Stewart
4. Brabham
5. Hulme
6. Gurney
7. Surtees
8. Hill
9. McLaren
10. Amon

1968
1. Stewart
2. Rindt
3. Hill
4. Amon
5. Hulme
6. Surtees
7. Ickx
8. Gurney
9. Rodriguez
10. Siffert

1969
1. Stewart
2. Rindt
3. Ickx
4. Brabham
5. Hulme
6. Amon
7. Hill
8. McLaren
9. Siffert
10. Courage

1970 (excluding deceased drivers)
1. Stewart
2. Ickx
3. Regazzoni
4. Amon
5. Rodriguez
6. Brabham
7. Surtees
8. Hill
9. Cevert
10. Beltoise

1971
1. Stewart
2. Ickx
3. Regazzoni
4. Amon
5. Peterson
6. Cevert
7. Hulme
8. Fittipaldi
9. Schenken
10. Gethin

1972 (there was actually a top twenty)
1. Stewart
2. Fittipaldi
3. Ickx
4. Hulme
5. Hailwood
6. Revson
7. Peterson
8. Amon
9. Regazzoni
10. Reutemann

1973
1. Stewart
2. Peterson
3. Fittipaldi
4. Pace
5. Hulme
6. Hunt
7. Reutemann
8. Revson
9. Lauda
10. Scheckter

1974
1. Fittipaldi
2. Peterson
3. Reutemann
4. Scheckter
5. Lauda
6. Pace
7. Regazzoni
8. Hunt
9. Hailwood
10. Watson

#14 mikedeering

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 10:39

Bravo Atlas!

So that's every year - except 1990 which I will have to dig out unless anyone else has it to hand!

It's really interesting to compare the placings. When I get home from work I will work out the Ultimate Top Ten! Something tells me Jackie Stewart, with his record 6 No 1's will figure prominently!

#15 josh.lintz

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 14:04

1990:

1. Prost
2. Senna
3. Piquet
4. Mansell
5. Nannini
(from Autocourse 1990-91)
"In the past, it has been the custom of this annual not to to include drivers who have not completed the full season becasue of injury as potential Top Ten candidates. Leaving Nannini out of the list would be doing this Italian drive an enormous disservice, yet at the same time the fact that he has been rated so highly is in no way intended to be a sympathy vote." :up:

6. Boutsen
7. Patrese
8. Berger
9. Alesi
10. Suzuki

#16 arcsine

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Posted 24 April 2003 - 18:08

Interesting! :)

Worthy of note are some of the omissions from the top 10s over the years; Arnoux in 1984, Nelson Piquet in 1988 and 1989, Riccardo Patrese in 1993,...

#17 petefenelon

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Posted 24 April 2003 - 23:54

Originally posted by arcsine
Interesting! :)

Worthy of note are some of the omissions from the top 10s over the years; Arnoux in 1984, Nelson Piquet in 1988 and 1989, Riccardo Patrese in 1993,...


I don't think the omission of Piquet in 88 or 89 was particularly interesting - in 88 he was no better than his mediocre car, and in '89 he was demotivated as well. It was a painful time for Lotus fans (and probably for Piquet fans, but I've never met one of those...)

#18 petefenelon

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 00:08

Originally posted by mikedeering

Strange points I've noticed just from 1990+ - MS was not listed in 1999 as he did not compete in "nearly" all the races as Autocourse puts it. From memory, I think he started at least half - probably more like 10/16.

DC in 1994 started 8/16 and is ranked 5th. So I think Autocourse dodged the issue on rating MS for 99!!!

I think exceptions had to be made for '94 - a Top 10 would've looked very odd if you'd been restricted to drivers who did every race....

Of the top 10

Hill 16 starts
Schumacher 14
Berger 16
Hakkinen 15
Coulthard 8
Alesi 14
Katayama 16
Irvine 13
Barrichello 15
Frentzen 15

So strict interpretation of the rules gives a top 3 of....

Hill
Berger
Katayama

Who else did all the races - Brundle, Panis, Blundell, Fittipaldi, Martini, Morbidelli, Alboreto, Belmondo, Brabham and Gachot.... of the last three, Brabham finished some races (alas not including his incredibly brave decision to start at Imola, whereas you're down to counting the DNQs to pick between Belmondo and Gachot....

pete

#19 JtP

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 01:11

1963
1 Jim Clark, unsurprisingly
2 Graham Hill
3 Richie Ginther
4 John Surtees
5 Dan Gurney
6 Bruce McLaren
7 Jack Brabham
8 A J Foyt
9 Richard Petty

The next 30 are in alphabetical order, starting with Chris Amon and ending with Trevor Taylor.

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#20 rich42

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 15:55

Firstly, I can add the 2002 top ten to this list:
1st M.Schumacher
2nd Raikkonen
3rd Coulthard
4th Montoya
5th Barrichello
6th R.Schumacher
7th Fisichella
8th Villeneuve
9th Button
10th Irvine
Now, I've scored the drivers 15-12-10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 for their placings, and compiled an overall list from 1966-present, with number of placings in the top 5:
Pos.  Driver	  Points   1   2   3   4   5

1st   Prost		  151   5   4   2   1   0

2nd   M.Schumacher   134   6   2   2   0   0

3rd   Senna		  116   3   4   2   0   0

4th   Stewart		108   6   0   1   1   0

5th   Piquet		  94   1   2   1   4   1

6th   Lauda		   90   4   0   1   0   2

7th   Mansell		 89   2   3   0   2   0

8th   Hakkinen		74   0   3   1   2   1

9th   Berger		  73   0   0   2   3   3 

10th  Coulthard	   64   0   1   1   2   2

11th  Jones		   53   3   0   0   1   0

12th= E.Fittipaldi	52   1   2   1   0   0

	  Peterson		52   0   2   1   1   1

	  J.Villeneuve	52   1   0   3   0   0

14th  Alesi		   50   0   0   0   1   3

15th  D.Hill		  49   1   2   0   0   1

16th  Ickx			48   0   2   2   0   0

17th= Rindt		   46   0   3   1   0   0

	  Scheckter	   46   0   0   1   3   1

	  Reutemann	   46   0   0   2   0   2

20th  Hulme		   40   0   0   0   1   4
These are the top 20, and all I've got time to post at the moment. Let me know if you want the complete list, and I'll add the rest to this list.

#21 holiday

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 20:03

Originally posted by rich42
Firstly, I can add the 2002 top ten to this list:
1st M.Schumacher
2nd Raikkonen
3rd Coulthard
4th Montoya
5th Barrichello
6th R.Schumacher
7th Fisichella
8th Villeneuve
9th Button
10th Irvine



Now this is strange. Here is rating from the first 16 races until Indy 2002 (save only Suzuka 02). Autosport/Mark Hughes's driver ratings:


1 M Schumacher 

 2 Fisichella   

 3 Räikkönen	

 4 Webber	   

   Coulthard	

 6 Barrichello  

 7 Montoya	  

 8 Trulli	   

 9 Button	   

   Panis		

   Salo		 

12 Frentzen	 

13 R Schumacher 

   Heidfeld	 

   Villeneuve   

16 De la Rosa   

   McNish	   

   Irvine	   

19 Sato		 

20 Massa		8 7 4 8 7 6 4 7 7  6  5  8  8  8  6   6.67

21 Bernoldi	 

22 Davidson	 

23 Yoong


Certainly the order cant be changing to such an extent in a single race, could it? These are btw ratings RACE BY RACE (example: Massa). Are the others ratings above are all made in the same fashion?


Mikedeering,

hope you've finally made it home ! :lol:

#22 Vicuna

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 08:24

My regard for the Autocourse top 10 started off at a low level when Jack Brabham was no.6 in 1966 and only rarely has it seemed that the editir has watched the same season as the rest of us.

Consider: 1983: Cheever at 7, and Patrese not there at all.

Jonathan Palmer making the top 10 not once but twice.

1987 has already been mentioned.

It's so daft as to not warrant comment.

In fact, I rather think the editor has ensured it raises comment.

Was it not A Henry that predicted De Angelis would be world champion in 1983?

#23 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 14:27

I don't know if it has been mentioned here, but off the drivers that have had every season of their careers (career starting from 1966 onwards), the highest average rating is not that of Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Lauda or Stewart. It's that of Jochen Rindt. And that is without him being rated for his WDC winning 1970 season...

That speaks volumes of Rindt's qualities IMO :up:

#24 John B

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Posted 09 July 2004 - 20:08

In addition to what's mentioned above I find it interesting that no #1 was chosen in respect to Villeneuve in 1982, but this was not the case in 1994 with Senna, when Hill was selected.

#25 Henri Greuter

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 07:00

Originally posted by John B
In addition to what's mentioned above I find it interesting that no #1 was chosen in respect to Villeneuve in 1982, but this was not the case in 1994 with Senna, when Hill was selected.



From what I remember (don't have the book available here) The #1 spot was left open in respect to both Pironi and Villeneuve since Pironi was in a good position to become the champion. But since there was doubts about what Gilles may have achieved during the year if given the opportunity...
It could so easily have been a `double` for both men that year....

No #1 if Pironi had finished the season just for Gilles alone, as much as I am a Gilles fan, that would have been too much. But taking the Pironi situation within the decion as well, I felt it to be a good decision to leave the #1 open that year.

Same for denying both Senna and Prost the #1 in '89, Senna in '90 and Schuey in '94 and '97.
Wit respect to Senna but I guess that the influence within the '94 season within the races he did participate was too small to even consider the #1 spot open in '94.
Maybe, given what happend that year the should not have made a top 10 at all that year since so few drivers could participate `Legally`.


Henri Greuter

#26 Vrba

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 08:47

Originally posted by mikedeering
....Incidentally, Senna was so livid with being rated #2 in 1990 he refused to write the introduction for Autocourse in 1991!....

That man never ceases to amaze me....in a wrong way.

Hrvoje

#27 subh

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 11:36

I don’t buy Autocourse, so can someone please post the top ten for 2003? Thanks.

#28 Rob Ryder

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 13:42

1. Michael Schumacher
2. Fernando Alonso
3. Kimi Raikkonen
4. Juan Pablo Montoya
5. Rubens Barrichello
6. Ralf Schumacher
7. Mark Webber
8. David Coulthard
9. Jenson Button
10. Cristiano da Matta

#29 Twin Window

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 22:19

Originally posted by Vicuna

My regard for the Autocourse top 10 started off at a low level [...]
It's so daft as to not warrant comment.


:up: (an example being Peterson at p5 in '71, and Cevert 6th... :rolleyes: )

Jonathan Palmer making the top 10 not once but twice.

I rest my case.

Twinny :)

#30 bock16

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 07:13

Originally posted by Vicuna
My regard for the Autocourse top 10 started off at a low level when Jack Brabham was no.6 in 1966 and only rarely has it seemed that the editir has watched the same season as the rest of us.

Jonathan Palmer making the top 10 not once but twice.

If I recall correctly, Palmer was the top non-turbo runner in 1987 in the first of the transition years. They tried to phase out the turbos with rules designed to give them the advantage in 1988 and then have them banned thereafter. Most teams did change in 1988, although the rules didn't quite have the intended effect.

I vaguely recall that they may even have had a normally-aspirated "championship" in 1987? Not that it was considered particularly important, but I guess Palmer was getting credit for winning that. Maybe someone else recalls more about that.

Don't write him off though, he still holds the record for the most 24th placed qualifications :D

#31 mikedeering

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 07:38

Originally posted by bock16

I vaguely recall that they may even have had a normally-aspirated "championship" in 1987? Not that it was considered particularly important, but I guess Palmer was getting credit for winning that. Maybe someone else recalls more about that.


The Jim Clark Cup was run in 1987 for normally aspirated cars, with their teams challenging for the Colin Chapman Trophy. Points were 9-6-4-3-2-1 as per the main championship, although at the start of the season there were not enough atmo cars competing. The Tyrrells of Palmer and Streiff dominated (Tyrrell were helped in being the only team to run 2 cars throughout the season) with Palmer eventually winning. Towards the end of the year the championship got more competitive as Capelli in the March and the Larrousse drivers caught up with the Tyrrells. I think all the atmo cars ran Cosworth engines. The atmo cars could also score points in the regular championship, and Palmer was first atmo car in that too, helped by 5th at Monaco and 4th in Australia.

The championships were done away with for 1988 as FISA believed the turbo and atmo cars could compete in an equal footing. FISA were largely correct on that score, except they obviously overlooked the McLarens!

#32 Vicuna

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 23:08

Yes I recall the 1987 season very well and Palmer being the top 10 amazed me then and still does.

However I no longer loose sleep over it.

But Derek Warwick's performances in a turbo Arrows were far more worthy than JP winning a title within a title.

But Patrese really should have been there in 1983 - at about 6!

I've just realised how low Clay was in 1974 - I wonder if they would have still put him 7th had he won the championship.


Given they are the editors opinion, we are all feeding various former editors egos but dedicating so much time to it.

#33 911

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 00:37

Wow, I didn't realize da Matta was 10th last year. Not bad for a first year in F1. It's too bad he's out for the rest of '04.

#34 subh

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 10:54

Originally posted by subh
I don’t buy Autocourse, so can someone please post the top ten for 2003? Thanks.


Er, for 2004-05-06? Many thanks...

#35 Maldwyn

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 12:13

Originally posted by Vicuna
But Patrese really should have been there in 1983 - at about 6!

In addition to this omission, and much as I enjoy reading and hearing Maurice Hamilton, I was rather pleased to see that his 1984 & '85 Autocourse predictions concerning Patrese's future were proved wrong.

However, the Top 10's are, after all, just one opinion among many.

#36 Wolf

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 12:48

I wonder how noone noticed that Hakkinen was never on top of the list... Most people would argue that he was the biggest rival of all conquering MS.

#37 Oho

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 13:06

Originally posted by Wolf
I wonder how noone noticed that Hakkinen was never on top of the list... Most people would argue that he was the biggest rival of all conquering MS.


Because he battled Schumacher perceived at his prime and he was not quite the match. Its odd Villeneuve gets the glory for 97 but Häkkinen not for 98, I'd assume it hinges on the performance and particularly shenanigans of Schumacher rather than the eventual champion.

#38 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 13:37

Originally posted by JtP
1963
1 Jim Clark, unsurprisingly
2 Graham Hill
3 Richie Ginther
4 John Surtees
5 Dan Gurney
6 Bruce McLaren
7 Jack Brabham
8 A J Foyt
9 Richard Petty

The next 30 are in alphabetical order, starting with Chris Amon and ending with Trevor Taylor.


I have never quite understood what this was all about since the rankings did not begin until 1966....

I have long held the notion that ordinal lists, whether simply based upon opinion (another way of expressing that there was internal criteria, personal experience or bias or even whim involved) or statistics (any comments would be simply beating an already bloodied animal) tell more about the person or group compiling the list than anything else. They are good for conversation and generally have little other use, but there is one use that makes it perhaps worth accepting the nonsense they generate and that is they provide us with a snapshot of how someone or a group perceived various people (or places or things -- such as venues or events) at the moment in time(Zeitgeist).

#39 Roger Clark

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 17:45

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps


They are good for conversation ...

That's good enough for me.

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#40 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 20:17

Speaking of conversation.....

1982
1 -
2 Keke Rosberg
3 Alain Prost
4 Nelson Piquet
5 Niki Lauda
6 John Watson
7 Rene Arnoux
8 Michele Alboreto
9 Riccardo Patrese
10 Elio de Angelis


Sorry, I always thought this was really pretty much a lame, even meaningless gesture, that if anyone truly deserved the number one ranking for that season, regardless of what happened during the year, it was Rosberg.

I would also question this listing....

1966
1. Clark
2. Surtees
3. Rindt
4. Stewart
5. Gurney
6. Brabham
7. Hulme
8. Hill
9. Bandini
10. McLaren


.... for any number of reasons, beginning with the first two being in the wrong order.

#41 former champ

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 12:57

Originally posted by Oho
Because he battled Schumacher perceived at his prime and he was not quite the match. Its odd Villeneuve gets the glory for 97 but Häkkinen not for 98, I'd assume it hinges on the performance and particularly shenanigans of Schumacher rather than the eventual champion.


Indeed. I think that's what did happen, although the manner in which Villeneuve beat Schumacher at the last race seemed to be a real hit with Alan Henry. Whereas Hakkinen had Schumacher nowhere near him at the finale of 1998, it wasn't the same nail biting, wheel to wheel finish. Impressions count for alot obviously.

What I find more interesting is that Mika didn't manage to get the number 1 spot in 1999, although Frentzen had a great year and thoroughly deserved it. Without MS there, you would have thought Hakkinen had it at a canter, especially the way he dominated in Japan.

Jacques took the 3rd spot in 98, 7th in 99 (without scoring a point) and 3rd again in 00. True testament to his ability in his prime IMO. No doubt from 1997-2000 who the top 3 drivers were, given out of the 4 seasons Schumacher, Hakkinen and Villeneuve occupied the top 3 spots in differing order for 3 seasons.

#42 subh

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 10:09

Originally posted by subh
Er, for 2004-05-06? Many thanks...


Guys? Some of you will be able to post these, surely? Thank you.

#43 RA Historian

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 13:43

As it so happens, Autocourse 2006-2007 just happened to be in the same room with me at this moment so here is 2006.

1. Fernando Alonso
2, Michael Schumacher
3. Kimi Raikkonen
4. Jenson Button
5. Felipe Massa
6. Giancarlo Fisichella
7. Jarno Trulli
8. Ruben Barrichello
9. Nico Rosberg
10, David Coulthard

Lots of room for debate there, which they have stated up front over the years. If I were to get involved in such a discussion I would start with numbers 6 and 7. At least underachiever Ralf did not show up.

If I weren't in a bit of a rush right now I would go downstairs and get 2004 and 2005 for you. If they do not show up soon I will do that.

Tom

#44 Rob Ryder

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 18:13

Originally posted by subh
Guys? Some of you will be able to post these, surely? Thank you.


2004

1. Michael Schumacher
2. Jenson Button
3. Kimi Raikkonen
4. Fernando Alonso
5. Rubens Barrichello
6. Juan Pablo Montoya
7. Jarno Trulli
8. Giancarlo Fisichella
9. Mark Webber
10. Takuma Sato

2005

1. Fernando Alonso
2. Kimi Raikkonen
3. Michael Schumacher
4. Juan Pablo Montoya
5. Giancarlo Fisichella
6. Nick Heidfeld
7. Jarno Trulli
8. Jenson Button
9. David Coulthard
10. Felipe Massa

Rob

#45 subh

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 09:44

Many thanks Tom, Rob. It looks like Jarno Trulli has achieved one measure of consistency.

#46 ensign14

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 10:01

Perhaps his 2006 ranking was the result of a bet. No other way to explain the bottom half of that. Rosberg ahead of Webber for a start is beyond any rational, normal, sensible, human comprehension.

#47 RA Historian

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 12:15

Originally posted by ensign14
Perhaps his 2006 ranking was the result of a bet. No other way to explain the bottom half of that. Rosberg ahead of Webber for a start is beyond any rational, normal, sensible, human comprehension.

These top tens are always food for discussion. In the case you cite, perhaps the author was taking into consideration Webber's pattern and history of underachieving while looking at Rosberg's potential. Arguably, while prone to a number of rookie mistakes, Nico showed flashes of what might come while Webber seemed to just muck about, perhaps having reached his level above which he is never destined to rise.

Sorry to our friends down under, but just some random observations which will probably be disputed. :|

#48 kayemod

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 12:19

Originally posted by RA Historian
These top tens are always food for discussion. In the case you cite, perhaps the author was taking into consideration Webber's pattern and history of underachieving while looking at Rosberg's potential. Arguably, while prone to a number of rookie mistakes, Nico showed flashes of what might come while Webber seemed to just muck about, perhaps having reached his level above which he is never destined to rise.

:|


Good point, but aren't we straying into Racing Comments territory? For what it's worth, I'd rate Dan Gurney and Jackie Ickx well above both Webber and Nico.

#49 RA Historian

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 12:22

Originally posted by kayemod
For what it's worth, I'd rate Dan Gurney and Jackie Ickx well above both Webber and Nico.

Most definitely! Absolutely no argument from me there!
Tom

#50 ensign14

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 12:51

Originally posted by RA Historian
These top tens are always food for discussion. In the case you cite, perhaps the author was taking into consideration Webber's pattern and history of underachieving while looking at Rosberg's potential. Arguably, while prone to a number of rookie mistakes, Nico showed flashes of what might come while Webber seemed to just muck about, perhaps having reached his level above which he is never destined to rise.

I was thinking about Webber outqualifying Nico at nearly every race and out-racing him at nearly every race. If it's past efforts and/or future possibilities that are to be included, then Arnoux should never have been out of the top 10 despite wanking around in a Ligier.