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The Ferrari P3 / P4


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#51 tom_neale

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Posted 04 February 2002 - 17:20

I have subsequently found an article that claims that #0846 was effectively the factory test bed, and was indeed the only true P3/4. The other cars, the 412Ps were left with the original engine, but had suspension mods to match the P4. #0846 became the test car at the end of 1966 as a forerunner to the P4, hence it was fitted with the P4 engine, and had chassis modifications to test out the P4 design and components. The car returned to Maranello at the end of 1967 and became the test bed for the 612 can-am , it is known to have been destroyed in a test in 1968, it now appears it had been modified further into a can-am test bed.

I had seen some photographs previously of a test session in 1968, the car was claimed to be the P5, but it was very similar to the 350 P4 can am cars, it was driven I believe by Andrea de Adamich. It was fitted with the P4 V12. It is possible they this was #0846 prior to the accident.

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#52 Roger Clark

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Posted 04 February 2002 - 19:08

tom,

What you say about 0846 is consistent with my understanding. Scuderia Ferrari visited Dayton shortly before Christmas 1966 for testing. The car they took was said to be the one that won the 1967 24 hours. It would seem logical that the car they took to the test sessions was a factory test bed, a modified version of the previous season's cars. I don't think it's correct to referto it as "the only true P3/4" as that name is usually used for the 1967 customer cars. It seems fairer to regard it as a P4, albeit rebuilt from a P3. That seems to be the designation the factory used.

I don't think I have ever heard of a P5. That series of cars effectively came to an end when the CSI placed a 3-litre limit on prototypes at the end of 1967.

The Tanner/Nye book contains descriptions of the cars and brief reports of the major races. It covers the Grand Prix cars and the road cars as well as the sport/racers, so you can imagine it's already a big book. If you're thinking of buying a copy, make sure you get one of the later editions. It has been updated many times over hte years.

#53 VDP

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Posted 05 February 2002 - 05:15

The P5 designation was given to a show car, interpretation of what could be the new sport car, designed by pininfarina in 1968 fitted with a 3 liter engine .
A year later a similar design appeared now on a Alfa Romeo 33/2 basis still a show car

Robert

#54 ray b

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Posted 05 February 2002 - 22:49

just to further muddy the waters
I came across a R&T story about a guy in 67
who had a P 2/3 converted to use as a street car!!!!!
so were all the P-3's built as P-3's or were some upgrades????
btw what is a P-2/3???? as to trans, body, motor, or other thing thats different??
how many P-2's were upgraded to P-2/3???

#55 VDP

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Posted 06 February 2002 - 17:34

I know that one of the Ferrar from Ecurie francorchamps if my memory is good it was the P2/3 OR THE 412 P was sold to the son of Dino Martin for street use for 9000 USD


Robert

#56 dmj

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Posted 06 February 2002 - 17:47

Yes, this car was recently featured in Classic and Sportscar while it was for sale at Duncan Hamilton's garage.

#57 tom_neale

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Posted 06 February 2002 - 23:57

The car was a 412P or P3/4 depending on how you like to call it. It is #0850 the car competed at Daytona and Spa in 1967. Many ferraris from this era were originally road car based, the regulations made them carry a spare wheel and weight to represent luggage. They were effectively road legal machines. I once heard the story about a gentleman in france who owned a P3/4 and used to drive it on a regular basis on the roads around the village where he lived during the late 80's. :;)

#58 VDP

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Posted 07 February 2002 - 21:04

Tom
I have read such story but I believe it was a replica but I have to check my sources
ve

Ray

There was also the white elephant , a P2 rebodied as a aerodynamic coupe entered by NART at Le Mans in 1966 and 1967 DNF both , after the CSI decided that such car were to dangerous ....
this car was rebodied again as street version.
Owner ?


Robert

#59 Yorgos

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Posted 08 February 2006 - 14:57

Just run across some period photos of 0844 in decapitated condition
http://www.virhistor...-gallery-01.htm

Cheers
Yorgos

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#60 P4Replica

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 03:36

Originally posted by rdrcr
From The Pennsylvania Motorsport Company

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"...The Ferrari 330 P3 and P4 are the most seductive shapes ever crafted by Scaglietti and Forghieri. Intricately fitted to the mechanically ultimate mid-engined Ferrari prototype, the 330P3/4s are … sexy.

But, like all race cars, changing rules and opportunities for starting money dictated new applications for old parts. The svelte 330 P4 bodies were shucked like old snakeskins to make Can-Am cars at the completion of the 1967 CSI championship series.

The panel offered here appears to be the original 330 P4 nose which graced the entry of Jackie Stewart and Chris Amon (chassis no. 0860) at the July 1967 BOAC 500km at Brands Hatch where it finished second, earning the extra point which secured the 1967 World Championship for Ferrari from Porsche. Old and tired, beat up and scarred, it bears about 60% of its original paint, and carries the race number "6" in characteristic style. According to historians, the only P4 which ever raced under the number "6" is the Stewart/Amon Brands Hatch car.

At the end of the ’67 season the CSI shrank the Group 6 sports car championship formula to 3 liters, leaving the 3,960cc P4s with nowhere to run. Ferrari, never one to waste a chassis or drive train, converted the P4s into the 350 Can-Am with bored-out engines of 4,176cc and modified bodywork. Chassis 0860 appeared at the Laguna Seca Can-Am in October 1967 as a 350, only three months after its last appearance as a P4, finishing an impressive fifth driven by Chris Amon.

It’s likely that the nose panel offered here, adorned with the race number 6 of the Brands Hatch BOAC 500km, was quickly discarded in the rush to transform 0860 from the CSI Group 6 330 P4 into the 4.2 liter Can-Am Ferrari 350. Tossed on a scrap pile, it had no further utility in a racing world that would take 312Ps and McLarens to championships.

Yet, this artifact of racing evolution and regulatory obsolescence is, most probably, the nose that crossed the line second in the 1967 BOAC 500 to leverage Ferrari to the World Championship over Porsche. It doesn’t get much more "historic" than that.

The part itself is visibly old, efflorescing quietly from years of exposure to the elements with the characteristic white fuzz that the lightweight magnesium-aluminum alloys of the period exhibit. Circumstantial though it may be, replica panels wouldn’t use exotic lightweight alloys. Large blobs of badly deteriorated mushy foam cap the carb air intake ducts. There is no hardware or emblems beyond the large "6" painted on the ancient nose.

Reach your own conclusion from the photographic evidence or on-site inspection. We think this is the P4 nose that poked over the line in the 1967 BOAC 500km and won the Manufacturers’ Championship for Ferrari on 330 P4 chassis 0860. In the heat of a three-way battle for the title among Ferrari, Porsche and Ford no more important or significant artifact of Ferrari history exits. It’s yours for $20,000, three-tenths of one percent of the value of the 330 P4 which it once led across the line..."

A rather belated reply to your post, Richard:

Said P4 nose section, allegedly the original nose from the 1967 BOAC 500 2nd-placed Ferrari 330P4 spyder (chassis #0860) of Amon and Stewart has resurfaced.

Apparently it was purchased, relatively cheaply, at auction a couple of years later, by Bill Noon of Symbolic Motors, La Jolla, CA.

It is now hanging in the showroom of Lamborghini Las Vegas (owned by Symbolic Motors) http://www.lamborghinilasvegas.com

Why a Lamborghini dealership, rather than a Ferrari showroom, and why Symbolic's restorers chose to repaint it with #23, rather than #6 .... who knows ? :rolleyes:

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#61 P4Replica

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 10:04

Originally posted by tom_neale
I once heard the story about a gentleman in France who owned a P3/4 and used to drive it on a regular basis on the roads around the village where he lived during the late 80's. ;)

Originally posted by VDP
Tom
I have read such story but I believe it was a replica but I have to check my sources.

Gentlemen.
Please accept my apologies for picking up on this thread a bit late :blush: (5 years) :rolleyes: ....
.... But would this be the particular car which you were referring to, by any chance, Robert ?

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#62 P4Replica

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 12:37

Originally posted by VDP
There was also the white elephant , a P2 rebodied as a aerodynamic coupe entered by NART at Le Mans in 1966 and 1967 DNF both , after the CSI decided that such car were to dangerous ....
this car was rebodied again as street version.
Owner ?

Ferrari 365P2 chassis # 0838.
Rebodied back to original 1965 365P2 high-windscreen configuration in the early 80's and ....
.... (still?) owned by a significant U.S. Ferrari collector, who contributes to this forum.;)

#63 Rosemayer

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 17:36

See part 2

http://www.imca-slot.../1967-PART1.htm

#64 swintex

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 20:01

Originally posted by P4Replica

…why Symbolic's restorers chose to repaint it with #23, rather than #6 .... who knows ? :rolleyes:


Looking at Rosemayer's link, I'd say it probably had something to do with Daytona. To me, as a font pervert :blush: the really scarey thing is, how do you let someone do something so obviously wrong, on what is after all, only a nose, but still quite desirable and possibly historically interesting.

OK, Impact was around then, having been designed in 1965, but it doesn't look remotely like the numbers used on Ferraris in period… but it is, incidently, very common now on computers and readily available for vinyl cutting plotters

Richard
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#65 P4Replica

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 08:25

Originally posted by Rosemayer
http://www.imca-slot.../1967-PART1.htm

Thanks for posting that link 'Rosemayer'.
Yes I was aware of the significance of the #23 in the P4's racing history (assuming that is what you were eluding to).;)
Some great B&W photos of the P4's (actually P3/4, 330P4 and 412P) at the 1967 Daytona 24 Hours in this online gallery:
http://www.scuderia....ona/default.htm
(Note; images are copyright: David Castelhano ©) There's a couple of close-ups of the nose of P3/4 #0846 carrying #23.
David posted an even better one, on FerrariChat recently:
http://www.ferrarich...&postcount=2162
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Note, however that the noses of a P3/4 and a true 330P4 are quite different, as shown in this photo (also posted on FerrariChat - around May 2005) by (and copyright) Marcel Massini ©
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No, I believe this little 'faux pas' by Symbolic's restorers is quite easy to explain. They appear to have inadvertantly copied the same earlier innocent mistake, made by the late David Clarke, when he restored P4 #0856 in the early '70's - even down to copying almost exactly the same (incorrect) typeface for the #23 ! :rolleyes:
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#66 P4Replica

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 08:39

Originally posted by rdrcr

Ray, I don't know about the NACA duct, I don't see one either,

The NACA duct referred to (much earlier) was prominent on the nose of the 350 Can-Am bodywork.
There is a similar duct, in approximately the same position on the top of a P4's nose, but it is smaller.
Funnily enough, when #0860 ran (briefly and unsuccessfully) in Can-Am in late '67, it sometimes carried #23 - in a style not too dissimilar to that used by both David Clarke and Symbolic.
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#67 P4Replica

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 08:50

Originally posted by swintex


Looking at Rosemayer's link, I'd say it probably had something to do with Daytona. To me, as a font pervert :blush: the really scarey thing is, how do you let someone do something so obviously wrong, on what is after all, only a nose, but still quite desirable and possibly historically interesting.

OK, Impact was around then, having been designed in 1965, but it doesn't look remotely like the numbers used on Ferraris in period… but it is, incidently, very common now on computers and readily available for vinyl cutting plotters

Richard
[/rant]

I've been working on this myself recently, Richard. :cool: With the help of a couple of graphic artists, we've been researching the number typefaces used on the original P4's at Daytona (the same style #2 and #4 were also used at Le Mans, but without the 'dayglo' borders) - in order to produce some accurate-appearing #23; #24 and #26 vinyl numbers for our P4 replicas. This is definately not any known 'standard' typeface - not even something as old as Helvetica from the '60's (or before). They are what I believe is known in the graphics trade as 'Hand-drawn'.;)

#68 Barry Boor

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Posted 22 April 2007 - 21:54

Can one of you 330.P experts tell me which race this model is supposed to be from, please?

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Its Ebay listing says Piper/Attwood, Le Mans 1966 - which it patently isn't!

#69 P4Replica

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 01:34

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Can one of you 330.P experts tell me which race this model is supposed to be from, please?
Its Ebay listing says Piper/Attwood, Le Mans 1966 - which it patently isn't!

Ah Yes, Barry ... The Brumm Cat # S013 :rotfl:
As it's in a Piper BP green livery, and carries the #3 , I would hazard a guess that it is meant to represent the Piper-Attwood 1968 Kyalami 9 hours entry. However, as that car had the big flared rear wheel arches; a dirth of Coca-Cola sponsorship decals (and the obligatory lashings of the duct tape), the Brumm model misses the mark by a 'country mile'. :down:

If you want to (easily) make it look something more representative .... try replacing the #3 decals with #7's and add a couple of BP shield / chequered flag decals, and it wouldn't look too bad as a model of the Piper-Attwood 1967 Kyalami 9 Hours entry.

PS - Assuming you've read the 'Pipes' book (pages 159, 160), if you then want to make the model look even more realistic, put it on the workbench, and proceed to attack it vigorously with a hammer and chisel for several minutes, and then add lashings more (1:43) duct tape !! Probably the best course of action with a Brumm P4 ! :lol:

Hint: Check out the Remember 1:43 P4's (412P's) frequently listed on eBay by seller 'Sebring1971' .
The Remember range includes just about every variant of Piper's #0854 - all correctly liveried . :up:

#70 Ol'_Motorhead

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 01:57

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FWIW, here's a couple of grainy photos of Mike Parkes P3 Ferrari #27 I took in 1966 at Sebring. The entry lists the displacement at 4 litres. It was/is a pretty car to look at and listen to! :)

#71 Barry Boor

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 21:18

Thanks for that, P4!

As my 43rd collection covers the years 1950 to 1966, I shall be ignoring that particular model as none of the mods you mention bring it within those parameters.

Thanks anyway.

#72 arttidesco

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 19:42

In the spirit of not letting old TNF threads linger to long I was wondering does anyone know where the P 3/4 (?) pictured by RJC in 1981 below fits into the scheme of all things Ferrari ?

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Ferrari P3/4, Silverstone, 17 07 81, with owners permission.

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Ferrari P3/4, Silverstone, 17 07 81, with owners permission.

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Ferrari P3/4, Silverstone, 17 07 81, with owners permission.

Thanking you in anticipation :-)

Art T

#73 Macca

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 19:58

I believe the car in the photo is David Piper's P4, known as '0900'; he had a new chassis built to original factory drawings and had enough spares to make a complete car, and used the body panels from chassis 0860 which he had owned.

The only P3/4 is 0846, now owned by TNF member MKIVJ6; it first was a P3 built and raced in 1966 and then became the prototype for the P4, the only P3 chassis ever fitted with a P4 engine. It has several differences in chassis and body from the 3 new P4s built for 1967, 0856, 0858 and 0860.

Paul M

#74 arttidesco

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 00:59

Thanks Macca do you know if it was raced in any of the classics or was it a collectors car by the time David Piper had it built ?

#75 Aero Z-28

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 02:50

I saw this car at the Santa Barbara, CA car show over the weekend. It was described as a '66 Ferrari 330 P3. Is this a factory example, some sort of replica, or what? The car was from Arizona.

-Jon

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#76 arttidesco

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 08:30

Looks like some kind of Replica with a Carb V8 instead of the Fuel Injected V12 of a 1966 330 P3. Carbon Fibre might just have been around for NASA's Mercury programme in 1966 certainly no where near ready for Ferrari rear view mirrors :-)

#77 Bruno

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 13:38

I've been working on this myself recently, Richard. :cool: With the help of a couple of graphic artists, we've been researching the number typefaces used on the original P4's at Daytona (the same style #2 and #4 were also used at Le Mans, but without the 'dayglo' borders) - in order to produce some accurate-appearing #23; #24 and #26 vinyl numbers for our P4 replicas. This is definately not any known 'standard' typeface - not even something as old as Helvetica from the '60's (or before). They are what I believe is known in the graphics trade as 'Hand-drawn'.;)




9h Kyalami 1968

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#78 jj2728

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 00:00

I saw this car at the Santa Barbara, CA car show over the weekend. It was described as a '66 Ferrari 330 P3. Is this a factory example, some sort of replica, or what? The car was from Arizona.

-Jon

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I believe it's an "Or What"......

#79 Macca

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 11:30

As TNF member P4replica hasn't (yet) popped up (perhaps he's turned off his woorldwideweb P4 search engine!).........

In the 1990s Lee Noble, who now makes those marvellous Noble sports cars, started making P4-shaped kitcars generally powered by a Renault V6 engine, and in the USA somebody with or without permission used a mould off a Noble bodyshell (distinctive because of the slightly higher roofline) to start making cars using Ferrari 308 or 328 donor parts - this is one of those.

They were still made until recently by NF Autos, and at least a couple of people have ones with Lamborghini V12 engines and much better running gear......these seem to be accepted by some organisers abroad for racing :down: but I suppose if you can't get a real one........................

Paul M

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#80 Aero Z-28

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 01:45

As TNF member P4replica hasn't (yet) popped up (perhaps he's turned off his woorldwideweb P4 search engine!).........

In the 1990s Lee Noble, who now makes those marvellous Noble sports cars, started making P4-shaped kitcars generally powered by a Renault V6 engine, and in the USA somebody with or without permission used a mould off a Noble bodyshell (distinctive because of the slightly higher roofline) to start making cars using Ferrari 308 or 328 donor parts - this is one of those.

They were still made until recently by NF Autos, and at least a couple of people have ones with Lamborghini V12 engines and much better running gear......these seem to be accepted by some organisers abroad for racing :down: but I suppose if you can't get a real one........................

Paul M



Interesting information. Thank you.

-Jon