25 replies to this topic

[aportinga]

Finally found some data on American racing history and I just love some of the reasons as to why these drivers droped out of various competition.

For example...

Presto - Lite Trophy (1910)
Louis Chevrolet (Buick)...Blinded by dust
Fred Ellis ( Jackson)....Magneto What the hell is that?

One driver was actually Disqualified for "Cutting"

However I would like to know if any of you have a explination for "flagged"

Example...

1910 Harvest Auto Classic
Jay McNey (Ostewig)...Flagged???

[Breadmaster]

I assume 'flagged' means black-flagged ie shown the black flag.
a Magneto is an integral part of the electrical system - but don't ask me what it does!

hope that helps?

[rdrcr]

Good to see that your horizons are broadening rapidly Andy. There is much to absorb, I know.

A magneto is a type of ignition device. With the advent of the spark plug and battery operated "buzz coils", high tension magnetos came into being to eliminate batteries and feed the higher voltage needed to overcome the open spark plug's high resistance gap. Tension is simply another word for voltage or potential. (Electro Motive Force in engineer speak) Low tension is on the order of 1,000 volts or less and high tension implies 1,000 volts or more. There's a wide range here, but the high tension of an antique magneto is not as high as a modern electronic ignition. The main point is that high tension implies a spark plug engine and low tension implies an igniter engine.

High tension magnetos also use capacitors (condensers) across their "external points" because sparking is now undesirable as it causes unnecessary wear and tear on the point surfaces. A high tension magneto uses a "secondary" "step-up" winding to create the higher voltage, much the same as in a step-up transformer.

I think the term flagged refers to being black flagged for failure to head a previous flag for a mechanical problem or driving infraction.

As far as the rest goes... in some cases a driver could become blinded by dust and debris so often found on early circuit. Sometimes the eye wear (goggles) of the day weren't enough to combat the elements found in competition. I think that cutting refers to cutting the course.

[Rob G]

Originally posted by aportinga
Finally found some data on American racing history and I just love some of the reasons as to why these drivers droped out of various competition.

For example...

Presto - Lite Trophy (1910)
Louis Chevrolet (Buick)...Blinded by dust
Fred Ellis ( Jackson)....Magneto What the hell is that?

One driver was actually Disqualified for "Cutting"

One of the very early Indy 500s had a driver retire with the reason being given as "car fell apart."

[aportinga]

Thanks all. I was guessing that "Flagged" refered to the same meaning of todays "Black Flag". I was simply not sure because so many drivers were in fact flagged during these races - kind of wish I had more info on why - perhaps it was just that rebelious American attitude .

rdrcr...I wish I was as smart as you Thanks for the data! And yes I am finding this era absolutely wonderful!

Thanks to all in TNF!!!

[oldtimer]

The key aspect of a magneto is that it is generates a source of high voltage by being driven directly by the engine. This in distinction to systems where a battery is a primary source of electricity.

Many piston-engined aircraft engines use magnetos as their source of high voltage, generally with a spare as a redundant system.

[rdrcr]

A - it's all relative... I wish I was half as smart as a lot of others on here!

The learning curve rarely flattens out...

[aportinga]

Hey I am researching America OW racing and here is what I have...

The following drivers...

Bob Burman
Joe Dawson
Louis Chevrolet
Tom Kincaid
Charles Merz
Jap Clemens
Ray Harroun
Al Livingstone
Ralph DePalma
John Aitken
Louis Meyer
Tommy Milton
Earl Cooper
David Bruce-Brown
Wilbur Shaw
Louie Meyer
Jules Goux
Dario Resta


I'm going to be looking into these guys in my first run of getting to know American OW racing past. The are Pre-WWI/WWII so I have alot to work with. Basically I took them from from the following categories:

1. American National Champions (AAA/USAC/CART/IRL)
2. USGP Champions - dating back to 1908
3. Pre-Indy 500 winners - dating back to 1910
4. Vanderbilt Trophy Winners (1904-1937)
5. Indy 500 Victories - qualifying and positions.

Nuvolari and Rosemeyer were also winners in many of these events but I am going to try to concentrate on those drivers who spent most of their OW careers in the States or equally on both continents (Resta for example).

You guys have anything to offer?

[FEV]

Sorry for your hopes of "rebelious American attitude" aportinga ;) , but the term "flagged" does not mean "black-flagged" at all ! It is used for drivers who finished the race but did not complete the total distance of it. In Europe until the 50/60s depending the races, every driver had to complete the race to be classified. It was the same at Indy where the last finishing driver could cross the line hours after the winner ! But in other National Championship races, the race was flagged when the winner arrived !
Cheers
Frank

[aportinga]

Thanks a ton FEV!!!

That would explain why so many were indeed flagged.

[rdrcr]

Originally posted by aportinga
Thanks a ton FEV!!!

That would explain why so many were indeed flagged.

There you go... another tidbit of knowledge. Thanks Frank

[fines]

Frank is spot on! "Flagged" simply means: "running, but not finished". It has, however, become common practice to call every competitor running at finish a "finisher", although strictly speaking a finisher needs to cover the complete distance!

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by FEV and fines

It is used for drivers who finished the race but did not complete the total distance of it. In Europe until the 50/60s depending the races, every driver had to complete the race to be classified. It was the same at Indy where the last finishing driver could cross the line hours after the winner ! But in other National Championship races, the race was flagged when the winner arrived !

Frank is spot on! "Flagged" simply means: "running, but not finished". It has, however, become common practice to call every competitor running at finish a "finisher", although strictly speaking a finisher needs to cover the complete distance!

The term "flagged" evolved over time, but the original term comes from the practice of there being a time allowed for competitors to finish the race distance before the starter "flagged" that the time had expired and then proceeded to "flag" the remaining cars off the course. Naturally, there were a few variations on this as time went on and cars that were several laps down when the winner crossed the line were often listed in the scoring sheets as "Flagged" -- as indeed they were.

It is well to remember that the "modern" ways of doing things -- especially in Europe and "F1" -- really only came into vogue in recent decades and derives -- gasp! -- from the American practice of awarding placings based on laps completed regardless of when the flag dropped. I think we kicked this one around a time or two....

[Wolf]

Aportinga- I've come accross GP results which used the term 'Not Classified' as a substitute for the term 'Flagged'. The rule was, AFAIK, that there was certain distance (set by organizers, in the old days) to be covered in order to be classified as a finisher. For example, there were few instances when drivers (most notably Moss with Maserati, which allegedly helped Neubauer make his mind about hiring him) pushed broken-down cars over the start-finish line to be classified as finishers.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Wolf
Aportinga- I've come accross GP results which used the term 'Not Classified' as a substitute for the term 'Flagged'. The rule was, AFAIK, that there was certain distance (set by organizers, in the old days) to be covered in order to be classified as a finisher. For example, there were few instances when drivers (most notably Moss with Maserati, which allegedly helped Neubauer make his mind about hiring him) pushed broken-down cars over the start-finish line to be classified as finishers.

Not a substitute, Wolf. An addition.
Anyone lapped in the race was not expected to complete the scheduled distance, and would thus be"flagged", but classified. If they were still running at the finish, but had not completed the specified minimum distance, they would be "unclassified". The term "unclassified" was also sometimes used to cover other eventualities, eg disqualifications. All the word means, after all, is that the driver had not qualified to be classified as an official finisher - for whatever reason.
The other point is that all a car had to do to be classified a finisher was to cross the line after completing the specified minimum distance. So if Moss broke down a lap or two from home he could push his car over the line and still be classified an official finisher (though I think there was a time limit for doing this, as well as the distance requirement). If the breakdown occurred too early however, he would not be classified even if he pushed the car over the line.

[Breadmaster]

My apologies for mis-guessing!

cheers for the info....at least I knew a magneto was electrical...

[Don Capps]

As David points out, there are were often mysteries wrapped within enigmas when it comes to this whole business of race results and race standings over the years, on both sides of the Atlantic and from one organizing club or series to the next.

To return ot the original question, for a moment: from what I have been able to figure out, the AAA Contest Board was the first to begin using the term "flagged" in an official capacity in race results although the term seems to have had been around for several years prior to that. Not to belabor the point, but in many of the early races the entrants were allowed to complete the original distance, usually with some form of a time limit imposed which was often fairly liberal. This was a holdover from the point-to-point races in both America and Europe.

As circuit races became more plentiful, the same concept of allowing those behind the winner to continue to circulate the course to complete the race distance was followed. Therefore, it is not unusual to see race results with the time of completing the race distance varying wildly from that of the winner to the last listed finisher. At one point, there was not a time limit, but sanity prevailed and a limit was put on how much time would be allowed and those not being able to get to the complete race distance were -- as mentioned -- "flagged" from the course, and there was a note placed by the number of laps completed: "Flagged."

Originally, this concept was (or was supposed to be) used at all AAA Championship Trail events, but by some point in the 1920's -- as far as I can determine -- the drop of the flag for the winner was also followed by the scoring being terminated and those a lap or more down were recorded as being "Flagged." The race standing were then based upon the total laps covered and points dsitributed accordingly.

In Europe, a similar situation, but the concept of being a "finisher" was exactly as David explained -- you had to cross the finish line (preferably under power) regardless of how far back you were after the winner took the flag. If you broke down on the on the lap (or next to last lap as happen to Graham Hill at Spa in 1960) and didn't get across the line, you were simply listed behind those who "finished" the race as the last of those who retired, despite perhaps covering many more laps than the car listed immediately in front of you; but, they "finished" and you didn't. There was a time limit with which the CSI seemed to have confused everyone, but that is another story already told -- see the Hawthorn at Portugal thread.

One reason there is some confusion over GP and Voiturette race results was that the Formula One Register folks (Paul Sheldon, et al.) used the modern term "unclassified" (and its modern restriction of needing to complete 90% of the race distance) throughout most of its recitation of results in the Black Books. They warned readers upfront about it and gave their reasons -- standardization being one of the major reason if I recall. However, most folks following Paul, Duncan, and the others of the FOR did not understand this and so blindly copied the information when they cribbed it from the Black Books. Hence, today there is some unnecessary confusion over the results of a number of GP races.

At any rate, I hope this gives a better idea of what a murky business this can be at times even when you have an idea of the answer should look like.

[bobbo]

"FLAGGED" . . . Let's see . . . Hmmmmmmmm . . . "Flagged" . . .

Isn't that what happens to me at the pub when I've had one (only one??) too many to drink??

Bobbo

P. S.

Sorry, couldn't help myself on this one . . .

Bobbo

[ensign14]

Wasn't there something at Indy to do with the 'Champion 100 mile an hour' club (for drivers that completed the 500 in 5 hours)? Given that so many Indys would have been won by laps and laps under modern regs, they allowed a set time to allow everyone to finish the 500 miles & join the club (at least a reasonable amount of time)

They also had it at the Donington GPs in '37 and '38 (they had 15 minutes after the winner to complete the race distance, in which time you could complete 6 laps) with the embarrassing result that practically every British car was flagged as being way too far behind

[FEV]

We still have today big differences between clubs on what you have to do to be classified. For instance, at Le Mans you have to finish the race to be classified. Suppose one car is leading the race by 15 laps when it retires 10 minutes before the end of the race : it will not be classified despite having covered more miles than the winner ! It is the opposite at the Daytona 24. Every starter is classified (like in every american races) no matter you finished or not. It is therefore not impossible that one day a car having a great lead over the second wins the race despite having retired shortly from the end... Last year, it took 2 hours for the Corvette to effectively appear as the leader of the race on the scoring board after the last top LMP car had retired...

[Wolf]

Don- I don't quite follow You with that crossing the line (presumably under power) sentence...Do You mean after the winner recieving the flag? Let's take '54 Italian GP as an example. Moss went out 9 laps before the end oil ine in the sump caused an engine seizure. Was the requirement to complete 70 laps out of 80? Or to do so, and moreover completing the last lap after the winner (did Moss wait to push the car over the line after Fangio recieved the chequered flag)? And why did he push the car? Seeing Daponte with 70 laps completed was classified as a finisher, whereas Moss completed 71 laps? And, BTW, was Daponte still running at finish?

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Wolf
Don- I don't quite follow You with that crossing the line (presumably under power) sentence...Do You mean after the winner recieving the flag? Let's take '54 Italian GP as an example. Moss went out 9 laps before the end oil ine in the sump caused an engine seizure. Was the requirement to complete 70 laps out of 80? Or to do so, and moreover completing the last lap after the winner (did Moss wait to push the car over the line after Fangio recieved the chequered flag)? And why did he push the car? Seeing Daponte with 70 laps completed was classified as a finisher, whereas Moss completed 71 laps? And, BTW, was Daponte still running at finish?

Moss pushed his car over the line to finish 10th and Daponte finished 11th. Moss pushed his car since he wanted to be a finisher. Besides, he had plenty of time to push the car down to the line and then wait to push it over to be listed as a finisher. Despite what you see everywhere -- see my note on the cribbing of FOR info -- they defintely were not "unclassified." This term seems to have cropped up here and there unofficially by a few clubs, but made official by the CSI in 1966 when it came out with the 90% rule -- with its timing being about as poor as it could, per usual.

In volume No. 7 of ARoGPaVR, on page 9, there is this ringer:

"The starting grid and full results follow, presented in conformity with modern practice..... All drivers competing 90% of the race distance are shown as Classified finishers with the reason for retirement if applicable. The 'Non-Classified' section continues down to the driver competing the fewest laps still running with reasons for retirements. "

I think Forix corrected most of its early errors of this nature, but I am not sure about many of the others.

[Wolf]

Thanks, Don. I think that clears it.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Don Capps


Originally, this concept was (or was supposed to be) used at all AAA Championship Trail events, but by some point in the 1920's -- as far as I can determine -- the drop of the flag for the winner was also followed by the scoring being terminated and those a lap or more down were recorded as being "Flagged." The race standing were then based upon the total laps covered and points dsitributed accordingly.

In Europe, a similar situation, but the concept of being a "finisher" was exactly as David explained -- you had to cross the finish line (preferably under power) regardless of how far back you were after the winner took the flag. If you broke down on the on the lap (or next to last lap as happen to Graham Hill at Spa in 1960) and didn't get across the line, you were simply listed behind those who "finished" the race as the last of those who retired, despite perhaps covering many more laps than the car listed immediately in front of you; but, they "finished" and you didn't.

This 'European' way of representing the result of a race became also in use in post-war Indy, if the Indy website is right ( http://www.indy500.c...3?raceyear=1946 ) :

7 28 52 Luigi Villoresi Maserati/Corvorado Filippini Maserati/Maserati Running 200 0 $2,375
8 29 7 Frank Wearne Wolfe Motors/Ervin Wolfe Shaw/Offy Flagged 197 0 $2,438
9 25 39 Bill Sheffler Jack Maurer/Bill Sheffler Bromme/Offy Flagged 139 0 $2,114
10 31 17 Billy DeVore William Schoof Wetteroth/Offy Throttle 167 0 $1,888
11 27 4 Mel Hansen Offenhauser/Ross Page Kurtis/Duray Crankshaft 143 0 $1,650

In 1947 it was likewise.
In 1950 the number of laps simply counted again as the result, like before WWII:

10 11 59 Pat Flaherty Granatelli-Sabourin/Grancor KK3000/Offy Running/rain 135 0 $4,639
11 16 2 Myron Fohr Bardahl/Carl Marchese Marchese/Offy Flagged 133 0 $3,734
12 13 18 Duane Carter Murrell Belanger Stevens/Offy Flagged 133 0 $3,464
13 26 15 Mack Hellings Tuffy's Offy/Charles Pritchard KK2000/Offy Flagged 132 0 $2,979
14 6 49 Jack McGrath Jack Hinkle KK3000/Offy Spun in rain 2 131 0 $2,799
15 24 55 Troy Ruttman Bowes Seal Fast Racing Lesovsky/Offy Flagged 130 0 $2,979

There are some confusing things in earlier results for an unknowing outsider like me, e.g. this in the 1934 result:
11 1 17 Kelly Petillo Red Lion/Joe Marks Adams/Miller Running 200 6 $900
12 29 5 Stubby Stubblefield Cummins Diesel Duesenberg/Cummins Running 200 0 $880
13 28 49 Charles Crawford Detroit Gasket Ford/Ford in pits 110 0 $860
14 11 31 Ralph Hepburn Miller/Ralph Hepburn Miller/Miller Connecting rod 164 0 $840
15 12 18 George Barringer Boyle Products/H.C. Henning Miller/Miller Bent front axle 161 0 $815
16 6 26 Phil Shafer Shafer '8'/Phil Shafer' Rigling/Buick Camshaft drive 130 0 $790
How can this guy in the pits get classified ahead of drivers who covered a greater distance?
In the earlier and later 30s the number of laps determined the result.

[FEV]

Hmmm... re 1934, the best sources I have access to (Harms, Taylor, Cohin) all give Charles Crawford 16th place.
But I recalled some oddities like this one at Indy. Take or instance in 1924 :
12th Jerry Wonderlich 180 laps in 5h50'56''82
13th Cliff Durant 135 laps (ran out of fuel)
14th Bill Hunt 190 laps flagged
15th Ora Haibe 181 laps flagged
16th Alfred Moss (Stirling's Dad) 176 laps flagged
17th Fred Harder 175 laps flagged

This is taken from Phil Harms wonderful job. If I look at Rich Taylor we have :

12th Wonderlich 200 laps
13th Durant 199
14th Hunt 191
15th Haibe 182
16th Moss 177
16th Harder 177

While Cohin as the same as above, adding that all six men were finishers.

Now Dick Mittman's Record Book (which I guess is the same as IMS's records) :

12th Wonderlich 200 laps 85.48 mph
13th Durant 198 (out of gas)
14th Hunt 190 laps flagged
15th Haibe 181 laps flagged
16th Moss 176 laps flagged
17th Harder 175 laps flagged


I would personally trust Phil Harms, because he has done such a brillant work on this, but I sure would like to have an explanation for R.C. Durant's 13th place.

[fines]

A bit of caution is to be advised here, since Phil Harms has essentially the same problem as Paul Sheldon: They both have covered such an immense ground that it is perhaps inevitable that lots of mistakes slipped through! This is in no way meant to denigrate their work, far from it, since where would we be now without them, but it can get a "bit" annoying at times.

Another thing: AAA and later USAC preceeded the European way of classifying retired drivers ahead of running ones, but with a little quirk at first: If a driver retired on, say, lap 196, with 195 covered, he would still be classified BEHIND any running driver with 195 laps covered! This was kept on for several years, unfortunately I don't know off-hand when it stopped.