28 replies to this topic

[Amadeus]

Hi

OT I know, but I figure there must be people out there who know about this stuff...

I'm looking at buying a 1990 BMW M5 (ad is on www.autotrader.ie - search for M5 in Dublin). It's the 3.6L straight 6 developing 315bhp. It sounds like it's in good condition and well looked after so I'm going to head up for a test drive.

I suppose I have 2 questions - first, does anyone have one, and if so what are they like to own, run and drive? Second - what should I look for on the test drive - any particular items that need regular attention, or know weak spots for example?

All help much appreciated (and apologies to Desmo for hijacking the tech board for a selfish question!!)

[axne]

Brave move!

A fun car no doubt. I'm no BMW expert so I cant go into specifics. I'd make sure there is complete service record and then have the owner and yourself go to a test station for a complete check on the car.

For this type of car and age, it will pay off. Its important you're there when the car is tested so the protocol isn't altered afterwards (which happened to me).

[freq019]

Unofficial BMW

This website has a forum similar to this and people discuss problems and what nots with their cars. There are also links to pages which may contain some good information. The only thing I know about E34 M5's is it is hard to find a low mileage specimen. Good luck

[da Silva]

The history of the car is important. How many owners, if any young ones that only had it for a short while etc. The maintenance on an aproved BMW dealarship should be there. Look for resprayed paint, not good. Or if it been crashed and cheaply repaired. Step out fast.
Test drive it from cold engine and hear if any rattles from engine when revs drop.
Say like this to the current owner: I need a fast car and I live close to the highway and want directly to drive to work in approximaly 150 km/h.
Or when you test drive the car from cold, drive the car very fast from the beginning.
If the owner dosn´t mention anything about engine temperatures or the Oil temp. don´t buy the car. See if there´s big gaps in the transmission, drive the car in like 1:st or 2:nd gear with little power, then take away your feet from the accelerator and then repress it again. If there´s a big gap it could been hard and uncarefully driven. Check if the air condition is working, if it dosn´t ,
big money. And the brakes and all electrical must be in top order. And the exhaustsystem, very very expensive
If you can get you that´s been taken cared off you´ll get a hell of machine.
My brother owns a M3 -93 now he´s become an true bavarian enthusiast.
Good luck, maybe the next on would be an 6 speed with the 'Nurburgring package'

[BRIAN GLOVER]

The only thing that I heard about that car, was that the differential is not good due to high opporating temperatures. Listen for noises and drive it fast for 15 minutes. Get out and check temp. Check limited diff slip action if it had that option. Put one wheel in the dirt and floor it in a low gear. No dealer records, no purchase.
But that's from a Chevy man, so dont take my word for it. Wouldnt get me near one.

Originally posted by Amadeus
Hi

OT I know, but I figure there must be people out there who know about this stuff...

I'm looking at buying a 1990 BMW M5 (ad is on www.autotrader.ie - search for M5 in Dublin). It's the 3.6L straight 6 developing 315bhp. It sounds like it's in good condition and well looked after so I'm going to head up for a test drive.

I suppose I have 2 questions - first, does anyone have one, and if so what are they like to own, run and drive? Second - what should I look for on the test drive - any particular items that need regular attention, or know weak spots for example?

All help much appreciated (and apologies to Desmo for hijacking the tech board for a selfish question!!)

[Breadmaster]

I had a nightmare one...so get it checked out properly first.

more later but i'd better do some work first...

[Amadeus]

Thanks!

The link to Unofficial BMW looks interesting - I've joined up and posted there as well, so hopefully that will pull up some good info. I also didn't know about the diff being a possible problem area so thanks for that too.

As for the brave move/nightmare car stories please don't scare me - it's been hard enough persuading the wife that we need a 315bhp car (this is a woman who test drove a 911 and said she "wasn't that impressed actually..."). I'm hoping to get up to Dubln for a testdrive at the weekend, so I might bore you all rigid with the stories after that ;)

[sennadog93]

Prolly a good idea to PM Todd as he seems to know a lot about this marque.

[Melbourne Park]

Well, I believe that 10 year old BMWs are bad news. In fact the only 10 year old Euro car I would consider would be a Porsche 911. 911s do last, they are built to handle even more power, their light weight lowers stress on all components as well, and they don't have much high tech and costly to fix computer trickery. The M has a heap of weight, which means a heap of stress ... IMO, German cars, although wonderfully conceived, have not for quite some time been " built to last " - with another possable exception of a sports MB, like a 560 sports of that period, modern cars from Europe have not been built to last beyond 150k IMO. It doesn't make economic sense for them to do so. And before 150k km, the M5 might badly bight you. Thanks to the TUV few cars are kept very long at all in Germany ... and the heavy BMW Ms are thrashed somewhat as well ... of course my uncle in law in Erlangen still has his Renualt 20 diesel, but boy, he is a crazy exception ...

[30ft penguin]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Well, I believe that 10 year old BMWs are bad news. In fact the only 10 year old Euro car I would consider would be a Porsche 911. 911s do last, they are built to handle even more power, their light weight lowers stress on all components as well, and they don't have much high tech and costly to fix computer trickery. The M has a heap of weight, which means a heap of stress ... IMO, German cars, although wonderfully conceived, have not for quite some time been " built to last " - with another possable exception of a sports MB, like a 560 sports of that period, modern cars from Europe have not been built to last beyond 150k IMO. It doesn't make economic sense for them to do so. And before 150k km, the M5 might badly bight you. Thanks to the TUV few cars are kept very long at all in Germany ... and the heavy BMW Ms are thrashed somewhat as well ... of course my uncle in law in Erlangen still has his Renualt 20 diesel, but boy, he is a crazy exception ...

Ah, not really. Of course there are cars which really are built with a "best before ..." point in mind - e.g. the Smart, which has a gearbox which nearly "automatically" fails at around 100.000 km (as found out by several Pizza delivery services by now ...), but many other cars are really safe to buy even at over 100.000 km. You have to keep in mind that 100.000 km really is no distance at all if you use your car to drive on the autobahn daily, which is what many here do - especially those using BMW 5 series, Audi A6 or the E class Mercedes. It is not unusual to drive 50.000 km per year (my father does), and driving on the autobahn puts far less stress on the car than doing 10.000 km per year in the city. I drove an Audi 80 for some years, up to 250.000 km, and then I simply wanted a different car (well, and I would have had to exchange some suspension parts which would have meant paying more than the car was still worth - the car was 11 years old by then ... ). Worked flawlessly.

It all depends on the car, but in any case, 150.000 km is really no "age" for a car like a BMW 5, Audi or Mercedes. All the newer models are "immune" to corrosion, so age basically does not matter. Smaller cars might have been built with less km/year in mind, that's correct. And a "high performance" car like an M5 indeed could be quite abused if the previous owner was an idiot.

[Breadmaster]

Things to check: suspension, tyre wear, engine oil - to make sure previous owner wasn't a banzai nutter. I drove mine hard and it didn't mind, but drive it crazy and it will go wrong, as far as age goes mine was over 200,000 miles and felt brand new (mainly due to new suspension parts) I don't believe age to be an issue with an 'M'
good luck!

[Melbourne Park]

Granted that autobahn mileage is easy miles...

My book rates the E34 sereis as below average in reliability.

Air conditioning fans won't work on all four speeds;
Engine cooling fan clutch often fails, causing overheating;
Crankshaft and general expensive engine problems, especially on M30 engines;
Timing belt tensioner need replacing every 50,000km (some later engines do not have timing belts though);
Early M60 engines sufferom from terrible problems, later units had different linings were OK;
Play in suspension;
Some versions used TRX alloy wheels which use an expensive and hard to get tyres, often cheaper to buy new wheels;
Rust;

Although I haven't had a BMW, although I drove a current 530 (V8) for three months last year, and I was not very impressed with that car, I know many who have them, my wifes's best friend has a new 528 wagen, she likes it, a lady family in Australia - members of the third wealthiest family in Australia - the wife has a 4 litre E34, but I guess she can afford to keep it running, her husband, the rich one, drives a MB 450SLC, they like to be a bit un - assuming - then there's my my German friend has the 4.4 litre wagon, its much nicer than the right hand drive V8 5 series as the left hand drive cars have rack and pinion steering instead of the right hand drive V8s which have the old ans stody recirculating ball steering. I have a close friend who bought an E34 with the 3.5 litre I think 6 cylinder. Unfortunately he had an expensive engine problem with the car. After about 18 months he sold it and bought a Nissan Skyline R-33 GT-R, which is a high performance car and has been trouble free, but its not luxurious. Incidentally I may say be carefull, but I drove a Rolls Royce Silver Shadow for years, and almost got away with it ... in Australia, the M5 is regarded by many as a good high performance choice, but there are cars offering good performance for the same or less money which offer no risk of un expected and costly problems. But I guess that that is the reason why the M5 is quite affordable to buy, there is a risk associated with buying it, hence the on the face of it bargain price. Its a car that one should buy out of love of the car, and be prepared for some expensive surprises, so you need to be comfortable with that. If one lives in Germany, there is far less risk as they are more common over there, and the service expertise and car knowledge, facilites and training is far better than anywhere else. Anyway, sorry to be negative. Good luck, but be very very carefull!!

[Amadeus]

Excellent - thanks a million for the additional info (esp on timing belts - something like that can wipe thousands off a cars value, and if nothing else is a good negotiating point)

Re buying a 10 year old Euro car, I'm not so sure I agree. I have test driven a couple of 10 or 11 year old 911s and they felt mechanically 100% (I know you said they were the exception but a highly tuned 360bhp air cooled boxer 6 could be a recipe for disaster if not looked after). We run two cars and our sensible family option is a 1995 Volvo 850, with a 2L 5 cycl engine. It's only got 145bhp in a really heavy car (0 - 60 is 10.6 secs) and it feels brand new, with nearly 80K miles on the clock (thats 128,000 kilometers). The official Volvo service sheet checklist runs to the 300,000 mile (480,000 Kilometer) service, so high miles shouldn't be a problem!! The same theory should apply to an M - looked after properly (and an £80K when new supercar should have been pampered for it's first five or six years) it should go forever. The one I am looking at had an AA inspection done before the last owner bought it. That inspection is available to me and if you get one of them done before you buy the car the chances are you won't run it into the ground...

I'm hoping to do the test run weekend after this - I'll let you know how I get on!

[Melbourne Park]

The point with those 10 year old Porsches is that they are in fact mechanically a simple car. Although powerfull, the engines can handle the power without problems. They have dry sumps for lower centre of gravity but also to benefit the oil, which is cooled. And the performance is rarely used, and the cars are very light, which means less stress on all the other working car parts. Its also a limited production vehicle, somewhat hand built, that has always been built to very high standards, and built to be affordable to own once purchased. Part of that formula has been longevity.

Most modern Euro cars however do not have longevity built in. Look at the new luxury class cars: expense is not buying longevity. For instance, if one ordered a MB without traction control and air suspension, the car would have greater longevity. Such features mean down the track very high repair bills. Also the Germans go for hi tech solutions, often ignoring simpler and more reliable technologies, because for the same manufacturing cost, higher performance can be sold. But it is at the cost of longevity. One way to achieve longevity is to over engineer things; these days cars tend to be far more even in quality, and over engineering is regarding by the cost accountants as a waste of money. Even the new 996 Porsche came out with a nasty interior: it looked good, but was cheap and nasty compared to the older car.

As to Volvo, those cars have traditionally lasted, and they are sold around the world to all sorts of hostile environments. Selling around the third world means manufacturers have to have longer life built into them, and simpler more reliable technologies. For this reason Japanese cars have longer life built into them. Volvos do go for a long time; I hope the ones they are making now are built the same way, but I am more dubious of the new ones compared to the older models, but then I am not very knowledgeable about recent Volvos. But a 1995 Volvo is a much simpler car than a high performance M 5 series. Incidentally it would be good to talk to the previous owner if that's possable. Best of luck.

[freq019]

I don't think you will have to worry about timing belts. I thought BMW went to the Chain in the early nineties late eighties. One thing I would look at is the front suspension. E34's are known for having the shakes after 60k miles, replacing control arm bushings normally does the trick but check this out before buying and definitely drive the car at 60 mph to see if it suffers from the shakes.

Good luck

[Amadeus]

I dunno - I think following the details and advice I'll get a local BM dealer to check the car over. By the way Melbourne, which book were you refering to? It sounds pretty comprehensive - is it an Aussie publication or available world wide?

[Melbourne Park]

Its a New Zealand / Aussie publication, not available world wide I would think, as it targets our two markets. I could email you the publisher etc. if you like.

Over here there are differences from Europe though. For instance Euro parts cost heaps more than Jap parts. Most Jap cars are more reliable and easier to fix, but more importantly, because many more are sold here, there is a much greater knowledge base. The reverse would be the case in Europe.

An example of the different things the Euro companies do here was what Volvo did; they lowered the price of there cars, and then increased the spare parts price. So the cars were easier to buy, but more expensive to run. Depreciation when the cars get old would therefore increase because of the higher running costs. While this may have been against Volvo's mission, the attractive short term gains must have been viewed as worthwhile. Also if more cars are sold, then the overhead per part for handling the parts, with more parts being sold, would go down. Hence they could have argued that by increasing new car sales, the price of parts would aventually go down because of the extra sales volume which would eventually allow the parts price to be lowered. As it was, Volvo 15 or 20 years ago used to be the biggest "prestige" car sale company over here, but the Germans have overcome them by a long way now.

Decisions on pricing are made by the company who distributes the car no doubt in accord with the parent car company. Several car companies over here use companies to distribute their vehicles and parts and to retail the cars. Others do it themselves. For example, VW and Audi use different companies to distribute their products. I am not sure who handles the parts though. Mercedes handle distribution and parts themselves, as do BMW. It was easier for MB to do that, because they also have a major market share of the truck market, which is a separate division. For instance in our state, Subaru are about to sack the metropolitan retailers, and set up a very large Subaru retail outlet in Melbourne, and have satellite retailers in the suburbs. Subaru believe that their current retailers are not doing a good job, Subarus being way behind Nissan, closer to Mazda and around the same volume as Mazda at 20,000 per year. So Euro brands sell little here, except for the Germans who sell quite a bit: MB sold 12,000 cars & SUVs in Aus. last year out of a total market of 750,000 vehicles. BMW once again beat MB in volume, selling 12,206, and Audi sold 3500 which was a large increase. VW started their own distributership this year and sold 10,133 passenger vehicles. The commercial vehicle market is 250,000 here. To give an idea of Japanese popularity compared to European, Toyota led nine of the 15 motor vehicle categories in sales which it participated and was in the top three in another five of the categories. Toyota sells around 200,000 vehicles / commercials per year. GM / Holden outsold Toyota in 2001 in car sales, although not by much, and Toyota sold much more commercial vehicles. While MB sold 12,000 vehicles, Nissan sold 43,633 last year. So Toyota, GM, and Ford dominate the Aus market, the other Japs follow, with the Euros way behind.

Hence what our views of Euro cars are would be different to European views, as would Euro views of US cars be different to US views of their own vehicles.

[Chui]

Amadeus, have you looked at the Honda Accord Type R or the new Subaru WRX? Both should be reliable, though the maintenance schedule on the Subaru is intense at scheduled maintenance every 7,500 miles. Not sure how they'd compare in price. The Subaru in the US is a bargain at US$25,000. Perhaps it's as much a bargain in Ireland...

[Amadeus]

Hi Chui

The Impreza WRX is around 38,000 Euro new (roughly $33,000), mainly because we have very high new car registration tax over here. The Type R is pretty expensive as well and would be close to impossible to insure... Besides which the new WRX has a face like a frog!

An older Impreza Turbo does appeal to me a lot though (an old style 22B or STi would be nice...) but would probably cost more to buy than the M5 and in terms of insurance & so on may even work out more expensive to run (they tend to be driven by hooligans over here, so they attract an insurance premium) - when I started getting quotes I found I could insure a 911 for less than a Subaru. An additional point against is that if you are going to be paying serious money to run a car you want it to feel it - the M5/911 type cars feel like quality machinery, the Honda and Subaru feel plastiky inside and are nowhere near the levels of refinment by comparison.

Still the performance is pretty addictive... If the M falls through an Impreza or Mitsubishi Evo sounds like a good candidate for a test drive!!!

[Melbourne Park]

I can't advise about insurance; if you do a decent mileage, the insurance cost of a WRX will be offset by the fuel savings in the WRX. My brother has an older WRX. He's had no problems at all with it, although he got sucked in an increased its performance. But they get you that way... Japanese cars are expensive in Europe because the Euro car industry protects itself, unlike the US car industry. If you do think of the older series, get one of the very last ones; they increased the strength of the clutch, so that in the last cars, one can drop the clutch at 6000 RPM and the car will tear away, time after time. But earlier ones can't handle that type of work ... Although the new car looks strange, I think they were brave. So many cars, like Hondas and Toyotas, Citroesn, Peugots etc etc are coming out with what is a type of sculptered square shape light, or slim line narrow light styles. Subaru went another way, but many feel its either ugly, or just too different. I suspect the latter is the case - people feel uncomfortable if it doesn't look either like a twin head lamp or multi head lamp arrangement or a sculptured square. I've heard that Pro Drive have a conversion for the head lamps as well. I think it would be a pity if Subaru changed its looks two years after its intro, but they may have too. Then 8 years from now, people might say it looks good after all. Of course, then there was that funny big Ford Ero car, wasn't there? At least they have nice rear ends, unlike the new 7 series. My wife is going to test drive an auto WRX today, that should be fun. Best of luck.

[Melbourne Park]

Oh I forgot, the last of the previous WRXs also had much better brakes.

As to comfort, Amadeus I don't think its on to criticise the WRX for being lacking in engineering quality. It is supreme in that area IMO. Sure its a bit hard and noisy, but its a very pure machine IMO. I've had three 911s and the WRX eats all but the 996 downhill in the wet. Don't forget the M5 may not be that cheap to insure. The Subaru is quite repairable after a crash, as are 911s. Both are quite repairable. I'd bet an older M5 would be a right off in many more crash situations: and when the insurance companies do right off a car becuase its too difficult to fix and not worth it to fix, it results in a lot of pain for the confounded owner.

the M5/911 type cars feel like quality machinery, the Honda and Subaru feel plastiky inside and are nowhere near the levels of refinment by comparison.

I wouldn't worry so much about that as much as how much it might cost to run an older M5. Get the Porsche and you'll get a much better long term deal. Don't forget depreciation either - an older 911 may have already bottomed, it'll just go down a bit if you maintain it, which is not expensive to do and they hang in there. But the M5 will just do down in value and cost more and more to run ... look at the value of older BMWs that cost around the same price as a 911 - the 911 is one of the greatest cars of all time, for a heap of reasons. IMO there is no comparison between a cultural and engineering masterpiece in a 911 ( I know many women for some reason don't like the flat six noise but that's probably because they don't desire to use it) and souped up German luxo sedan. I drove last year (year 2000) a V8 5 series and I didn't think much of it. My wife drove it more than me and she now thinks BMWs aren't any good. She doesn't want to even drive one (she is after a replacement for her 2 and a half year old MX5). Whoops I've got negative again about them, sorry about that. Good luck. Buy a 911, even if you regret it, it'll be easy to sell down the track. And eveyone should have driven a sports car in their lives. And while everyone should have driven a 911, only a lucky few get to.

[flyer72]

Well I'm nost so sure about the M5, especially from 90 but in my family we have had 5 BMWs since the early 90s. 730IA from 92 with 420.000 km on it, gearbox switched after 4000 km with electrical problems under warranty, recent electrical problems but fixed (for now), recent overhauled engine (runs really well), 840IA from 94 with 220.000 km, rebuilt engine recently (runs exceptionally well), 728AI from 96 sold at 160.000 km - suspected maintenance related failure (cooler and belts were not fastened properly), traded in for a 735AI from 97, currently have 230.000 km, no problems. Oh, and a 525AI from 93 sold at 180.000 km, had electrical problems that never really got fully fixed.
All cars bought when being 6-12 months old with very low mileage.

Considering the mileage of the cars nothing really bad has happened. All cars fully maintained (all inspections/oilchanges done).

M5s are really good cars but then again one from 90 is a little old, you should check all maintenance/ check the car independently and testdrive it! Due to the age of the car, suspension, gearbox, engine and all kinds of things can be worn out (handling might not be as good as it should be).

A tip, push the car hard but do it where you can afford making a mistake to test the handling!
Suspension could be worn out and for a M5 that can be really bad!
Another tip, IF you have electrical problems (dead battery etc.) DON'T turn the car in for service at BMW. They will only charge money and most oftenly have no clue which electrical system is malfunctioning. You have to find a specialty company that are into car electrics.

A recurrent problem with a dead battery (solution at BMW - new battery) result dead battery again!
Turning the car in again, the car came back from BMW, not finding a problem (new battery again!).
Result - dead car again! Turned car into a specialty company. (the culprit - A carphone installation that the wiring was worn out), fixed the problem on the 92 730AI.

Good luck!

[flyer72]

Oh, almost forgot - one problem that most BMWs suffer from is that the displays for radios and bordcomputers tend to lose their readability after a while - they screw up! It is really costly to fix as they don't switch the display, they change the whole radio/bordcomputer!

[ffiloseta]

I searched the sites as per your instructions, but found nothing. What's the price?

I had an M 635csi. I don't think it had an M6 designation, but it was one of 100 cars purposedly built for homologation of the 635. It was most obviously different from the vanilla 635 in the shifting pattern. Mine had first down (towards you) and standards had first up (towards the engine). Or viceversa. It's late friday and I've drunk enough scotch.

To the point: The car was VERY expensive to maintain and being in South America didn't really help. But the car was REALLY, REALLY worth it. I got it for 6K US$ from a guy that actually DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HE HAD. He thought the M logo on the trunk was something the previous owner snobbishly sticked on. Even I learned what the car was after I bought it, when my US part supplier checked the car's VIN and told me: "You have one of a run of only 100 car, etc. etc. some parts we have, but some we'll have to bring from Germany (if we get them at all). The thing even had METRIC wheels. ****, where do you find METRIC tires in the US ? Sheesh...

But I had another car that was my daily driver (an XJ/6) and business was allright, so I went on and brought the thing up to standards. With lots of money and lots OF TIME WITHOUT THE CAR, which was the worst.

So I tell you, if the price is low enough that it gives you some cover for repairs AND you have another car OR don't need your car to be there day after day, go for it. Else, get an Integra ;)

[Melbourne Park]

As to Integras, I would get the Nissan 200Sx but I don't know if its available where you are ... its a new shape, and at least as much accelleration as a standard WRX (in the dry at least), and is rear wheel drive. While Honda do a great job with FWD, I think a sports car is better with rear wheel drive. The Nissan looks like a 7/8s version of 30% 60s Ferrari and 50% current 456 2+2 Ferrari. The other 20% - you'll have to make your mind up about that ...

[ffiloseta]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
As to Integras, etc.

I agree with you on the rear drive issue. I used to race F.Fords. I have a clue.

However, I don't think Nissans can be as readiliy pumped up as Hondas. In my case, less than a handful of items pushed my engine to the 200HP line. I get lost (In the Internet) when trying to get info for my Integra, but I have seen, on writing, outputs of more than 400HP from the same 1.8 non-VTEC piece... and If they got that, and advertise it, then I too can get that (with the help of a sum of money that, alas, I can't command as of now) if I really wanted to.

On the other hand, I have read that NISMO is coming to America (thank you Renault...!), but it will still take some time until parts are easily available. In the meantime, I enjoy my little Acura.

[El Tapatio]

I'm not a previous M5 owner, so take my advice with a grain of salt. Find an experienced, knowledgeable BMW mechanic in your are who doesn't have a vested interest in the sale of the car you're looking at and listen to him A couple of years ago I bought an old Ferrari after taking advice from a neutral mechanic and I haven't had a problem since. Trust me, an experienced BMW mechanic has forgotten more about M5s than you or I will ever know.

[Amadeus]

ffiloseta:
He's taken the car off the paper since the thread started. It's a 1990 E34 M5 (1st model version, 3.6L with 315bhp). Full history, including an AA (Automobile Assoc) inspection prior to last purchase. Asking price is IRP£10,500 (just under USD$11,500), insurance approx 1,900 Euro/year (fully comp) - that's around USD$1600. New tyres all round, factory original alloys, claimed never been on a track or crashed.

I do have a second car (ubersensible - Volvo 850) and I am now getting rid of a FWD 'sports' car - Renault Megane Coupe - like a lot of smaller sports models in Europe (Ford Puma and Lotus Elise being prime examples) the emphasis is more on fun and roadholding than out & out power. I want the next car to be RWD, if poss.

On a broader point, Japanese road cars do not excite me at all - they seem to lack the panache and style of Euro models. The M5 - especially the newer model - is a good example of the difference between Euro and Japanese cars. The WRX & EVO are fantastic cars but with thier huge air scoops and big spoilers they look like real boy racers cars (Max Power is a car mag over here that specalises in that sort of thing - clapped out vauxhalls dripping with 10 grands worth of bodykit and luminous green paint - the WRX and EVO models remind me of them). The Type R's are more subtle, but the styling on Hondas seems to veer more towards sleep than tingle. The M5, on the other hand is like Lennox Lewis in a Hugo Boss suit. Stylish, elegent and understated to the point where you might almost miss the power thats available.... Likewise the 911 - takes the Japanese theory of form over function to a whole higher level.

[and once again - thanks a million to everyone for all the input on areas to watch for...!]

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by Amadeus
....
It's a 1990 E34 M5 (1st model version, 3.6L with 315bhp). Full history, including an AA (Automobile Assoc) inspection prior to last purchase. Asking price is IRP£10,500 (just under USD$11,500), insurance approx 1,900 Euro/year (fully comp) - that's around USD$1600. New tyres all round, factory original alloys, claimed never been on a track or crashed.

I guess the question is what sort of car can you get for that money. Curiously in Australia, the valuation for the M5 is only for 1991 models:
Here is the valuation in Aussie dollars:
Car: BMW M5  
Bod: 4D SEDAN
Year: 1991
Eng: 3.5 l
Trans: 5M
(Private Sale) Price: 47250-57750
(Trade In) Price: 44400-52500
(Dealer Adv'd) Price: 60000-72000
when new: 155,200
Avg Ks travelled: 146,000

In UK Pounds:
(Private Sale) Price: 17,195 - 21,016
(Trade In) Price: 16,158 - 19,106
(Dealer Adv'd) Price: 21,835 - 26,202
when new: 56,480

The other 5 series have not depreciated as much:
(Private Sale) = PS: (Trade In) = TI: (Dealer Adv'd) DA:

BMW 5 20i  4D SEDAN 1991 2 l 5M PS: 16290-19910 TI: 15700-18100 DA: 22300-26760 New: 66600 146,000km
BMW 5 35i  4D SEDAN 1991 3.4 l 4A PS: 24390-29810 TI: 23200-27100 DA: 32000-38400 New:107500 146,000km
BMW 5 35i  4D SEDAN 1991 3.4 l 5M PS: 23940-29260 TI: 22700-26600 DA: 31400-37680 New:104500 146,000km

In pounds:
BMW 5 20i  4D SEDAN 1991 2 l 5M PS: 5,928-7,246 TI: 5,714-6,587 DA: 8,115-9,738 New:24,237146,000km
BMW 5 35i  4D SEDAN 1991 3.4 l 4A PS: 8,876-10848 TI: 8,443 - 9,862 DA:11645-13975 New:39,121 146,000km
BMW 5 35i  4D SEDAN 1991 3.4 l 5M PS: 8,712 -10,648 TI: 8,261-9,680 DA:11,427 -13,713 New:38,030 146,000km

So is the M5 a comparable bargain? It looks like it, but they are more expensive to fix, and more needfull. Hence the higher depreciation.

When I was young I always thought an MB 300 SEL 6.3 was a bargain.

As to 911 Porsches, they cost less than 10 % more when new. But they depreciate a lot less now in Aus. :
(Private Sale) = PS: (Trade In) = TI: (Dealer Adv'd) DA:
PORSCHE 911 CARRERA "  2D COUPE 1991 3.6 l 5M PS:59850 - 73150 TI:56200 - 66500 76000 - 91200 165770
PORSCHE 911 CARRERA " 4  4WD 1991 3.6 l 5M PS:69480 - 84920 TI:65200 - 77200 88200 - 105840 192405
PORSCHE 911 CARRERA "  2D TARGA 1991 3.6 l 5M PS:63450 - 77550 TI:59600 - 70500 80600 - 96720 173100
PORSCHE 911 CARRERA "  2D CABR'T 1991 3.6 l 5M PS:65790 - 80410 TI:61800 - 73100 83600 - 100320 186400

The concerted to pounds values are (sorry not formatted but the order is the same):

PORSCHE 911 CARRERA PS:21,781 - 26,621 TI: 20,452 - 24,201 DA: 27,658 - 33,190 New 60,327
PORSCHE 911 CARRERA PS:25,285 - 30,904 TI: 23,728 - 28,095 DA: 32,098 - 38,517 New 70,020
PORSCHE 911 CARRERA PS:23,091 - 28,222 TI: 21,690 - 25,656 DA: 29,332 - 35,198 New 62,995
PORSCHE 911 CARRERA PS:23,942 - 29,263 TI: 22,490 - 26,603 DA: 30,424 - 36,508 New 67,835

So a Porsche cost only 8% more when new than the M5; now the M5 is much cheaper.

Is this because people like sports coupes, or is it because the M5 is more risky? Its not fuel cost, as fuel is quite cheap in Aus. Mostly running costs I believe.

My figures show that a 1988 Porsche should cost about the same:

PORSCHE 911 CARRERA 1988 3.2 l 5M PS:49500-60500 TI:45000-55000 DA:66000-79200 New: 132500 188,000km
Pounds:
PORSCHE 911 CARRERA 1988 3.2 l 5M PS:18014-22017 TI:16376-20016 DA:24019-28822 New:48,219 116,000ml

Since the Aussie dollar is much lower than the pound or $US, that its more affordable to keep an older BMW on the road. But then, our labour costs would be less ... the main difference would be parts.

One other thing to look at would be the price you can sell the car for 5 years down the track. The Porsche will hold its value better I would believe.

My wife is after another car, the M5 would be great; buts its too old to lease; although the lease company would take a Porshe that old, the car is not the right image.

Originally posted by Amadeus
....
The M5, on the other hand is like Lennox Lewis in a Hugo Boss suit. Stylish, elegent and understated to the point where you might almost miss the power thats available....

Just make sure he's not gone punchy !