73 replies to this topic

[McRonalds]

I don't know if this topic had been discussed before - but I' simply asking because I'm really interested in it: Unsafe racing cars. I' not talking about slow or uncompetitive cars - I'm talking about cars really unsafe or even dangerous cars.

The most popular case in the last years was the heavy crash Mercedes-Benz had with their Le Mans car in '99, when one of that cars took off (I actually think there was a series of incindents). It was luck no one was hurt. I was really shocked when one of them took off, made some somersaults and touched down into the botany. They later admitted that their cars had problems when following other cars too close - it was a massive mistake! I think Mercedes should have withdrawn their entries and I wonder why no one else interfered.

I also remember that Rial had some heavy crashs with their cars in '89 and their drivers reported about that car being unsafe, als well as the '90 Lotus-Lamborghini, which had some massive crashes too.

And don't forget the 'rollerblade' Mickey Thompson Special at Indy '64. A lot of people tried it and called it unsafe (hasn't even Jim Clark tried?). And it actual was involed in a horrendous crash that costs the life of Eddie Sachs and the unfortunate Thompson-driver Dave McDonald. The car really looked nice - but I' sure one can call it unsafe.

My question: has anybody ever heard of a car being blackflagged, disqualified or even not allowed to start at all because it was obviously unsafe? Or if drivers refused to race unsafe cars?

[Buford]

The vast majority of the cars I raced in the 1970's and 1980's were totally unsafe as were the tracks, with open trees, wood guard rails, lack of fire protection. Not only unsafe by today's standards but unsafe then too and we knew it.

We discussed the Thompson cars just the other day in the Streamliner thread.

Yes I recall USAC waving cars off the track after a couple laps for being unsafe. Not only too slow, but obviously uncontrollable shitboxes.

[TODave2]

Trying to remember here...

Japanese GP in 1976 I think. A Japanese team entered the race (was it Maki?) and the car basically 'ended' about where the drivers thighs were. The entire front end was held on with a bracket underneath the cockpit. The driver (I think he was British) tried to qualify it on the Friday, but obviously it was a bit of a no hoper (you can imagine what the rigidity of the chassis was like). I believe that when the other team managers came down to look at this car they were so horrified that they wouldn't let the driver go out in it.

Sorry, my brainbox is full of these half-anecdotes with scant detail. Hope someone can put some meat on these bones of a story.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by TODave2
Trying to remember here...

Japanese GP in 1976 I think. A Japanese team entered the race (was it Maki?) and the car basically 'ended' about where the drivers thighs were. The entire front end was held on with a bracket underneath the cockpit. The driver (I think he was British) tried to qualify it on the Friday, but obviously it was a bit of a no hoper (you can imagine what the rigidity of the chassis was like). I believe that when the other team managers came down to look at this car they were so horrified that they wouldn't let the driver go out in it.

Sorry, my brainbox is full of these half-anecdotes with scant detail. Hope someone can put some meat on these bones of a story.

It was the one and only Tony Trimmer (excellent driver choice for this car, as far as names are concerned), driving the Maki F102A. No match for the Takaharas and Kuwashimas! Eighteen seconds off the pace!
There's another thread about no Japanese ever raced a F1 car with a no. 4 in it, even in double figures. This Japanese car/British driver combination had nr. 54.....

[Prostfan]

I guess the Honda RA302 has to be considered a very unsafe car. It had only one appearance in the French GP 1968 and its driver Jo Schlesser died.
I'm afraid I can't tell you the technical specifications, but the car was never used again.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Prostfan
I guess the Honda RA302 has to be considered a very unsafe car. It had only one appearance in the French GP 1968 and its driver Jo Schlesser died.
I'm afraid I can't tell you the technical specifications, but the car was never used again.

That's the car I was thinking about immediately after reading the title of this thread. Eight cylinders, air-cooled, very experimental, undrivable, lots and lots of magnesium, burned like hell...
see also this thread: http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=33535
info (thanks Ray) : http://www.bakerprec...m/gallery10.htm

I guess the Rouen disaster meant the end the of Honda's F1 adventures in the 60s effectively.

[2F-001]

Having seen the monocoque after David Purley's Silverstone accident, it would be tempting to suggest that car was not entirely crash-worthy. That was a serious impact though, and I don't know how it's contemporaries would have fared in the same shunt.

[William Hunt]

A car that immediately comes to mind is the Brabham BT55 used by Riccardo Patrese and Derek Warwick who replaced Elio de Angelis who lost his life in a BT55 at Paul Ricard.

Besides the BT55 Honda RA302 comes to mind. Those models were both considered as extremely difficult to handle and even dangerous.

The Lotus 72 (1970) , one of the most succesful cars in F1 history was, especially in the beginning, considered as very fast but a dangerous car.

All the cars with the huge wings in '68-'69 were dangerous.

[Buford]

Easily the most unsafe car I ever saw was Smokey Yunick's sidecar Indy car.

[stevew]

Originally posted by Buford
Easily the most unsafe car I ever saw was Smokey Yunick's sidecar Indy car.

That design was crazy! I can't believe anybody actually drove that car.

Here's a picture (near top of page)

http://www.martsrods...k/goodwood2.htm

[Hitch]

...and I'm sure we can call this one an unsafe car...;)

[Buford]

Originally posted by stevew


That design was crazy! I can't believe anybody actually drove that car.

Here's a picture (near top of page)

http://www.martsrods...k/goodwood2.htm

Are you saying the driver protection left a bit to be desired? Duane Carter drove it at first. Bobby Johns tried to qualify it. He was fast enough but blew the engine in turn one, right in front of me and hit the wall. But it hit on the rear and right side and spun into the infield and Johns was not hurt. Had it hit on the left side, Johns would have been squished.

[William Hunt]

Hitch, who was that driver on that picture and where was it taken ? It seems like a Formula 2 car from '69 ?

[McRonalds]

The car with that 'soft' wings looks like a Brabham, but I really too would like to know, Hitch. In '69 there was a lot of strange wings - but that puts the lid on it!

I remember I read a story some time ago in a mag (I can't find that story at the moment - but I'm sure someone can confirm this) that the great Porsche 956/962C was a dangerous car in terms of safety too. Remember that three drivers lost their life during some months (Gartner, Winkelhock (M) and Bellof - not to mention other horrendous accidents. That casts a shadow to the extraordinary career of pne of the greatest sportscars.

Does someone remember what the fundemantal fault was?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Hitch
...and I'm sure we can call this one an unsafe car...;)

Graham Birrell at Thruxton in the Ecurie Ecosse BT23C? Wills Trophy/BARC 200, April 7th 1969.

[Hitch]

Originally posted by McRonalds
I remember I read a story some time ago in a mag (I can't find that story at the moment - but I'm sure someone can confirm this) that the great Porsche 956/962C was a dangerous car in terms of safety too. Remember that three drivers lost their life during some months (Gartner, Winkelhock (M) and Bellof - not to mention other horrendous accidents. That casts a shadow to the extraordinary career of pne of the greatest sportscars.

McRonalds, concerning your statement about the Porsche 056/962C: I remember I heard that too, but found no evidence. There's a heartbreaking story about the fatal crash of Manfred Winkelhock in Marc Surer's book 'Motorsport explosiv' but no accusation of Porsche - more likely for the Kremer brothers. By the way: a really nice book to read...

I remember another famous Porsche (the 917) was very unpopular in the beginning - most drivers don't really want to drive the car, called it a 'beast' or an 'ulcer'. It's road performance must have been horrible. Hans Herrmann wrote in his biography 'Ein Leben für den Motorsport' that no one of the works-drivers wanted to drive the 917 during the 1000 km at the Nurburgring - so Porsche had to hire two 'foreign-workers', David Piper and Frank Gardner. At Le Mans there even was a fatal crash of privateer (though it was a works-car) John Woolfe.

[stevew]

Originally posted by Buford


Are you saying the driver protection left a bit to be desired? Duane Carter drove it at first. Bobby Johns tried to qualify it. He was fast enough but blew the engine in turn one, right in front of me and hit the wall. But it hit on the rear and right side and spun into the infield and Johns was not hurt. Had it hit on the left side, Johns would have been squished.

I saw that car in person, and the thing that really bothered me was of course hitting the wall on the left side, but a thought went through my mind; "after say, 450 gruelling miles, what if that little driver pod simply fell off?"

There were some very brave drivers back then...

[Hitch]

Here they are: both '69 monsters! While the Porsche 917 (the aforementioned Piper/Gardner car at the Nurburgring '69) will turn into a formidable racer, the Alan Mann Ford was really indomitable and disappeared in a museum. I heard photographers loved it - a spectacular car!

[Stefan Ornerdal]

The Nardi, raced at Le Mans in the early part of the 50's was made of two "pontoons", the driver at one side, the 750cc engine at the other side. When the bigger cars overtook this vehicle, it was blown off the track...!

Stefan

[Rainer Nyberg]

The 956/962 cars are an absolute all-time favorite of mine. I don´t think it had any fundamental fault. Apart from the old fashioned 60s/70s technology sheet-dural monocoque, which offers little crash-protection.

Porsche was always conservative with their chassis. Their space-frame cars also lasted long after they went unfashionable.

It was involved in a few serious accidents yes, but we also have to remember that the sportscar grids were packed with Porsches in the mid 1980s, so it was always more likely that an accident would involve a Porsche.

Manfred Winkelhock's accident at Mosport was due tyre-failure or possible driver error.

[McRonalds]

Hitch & Rainer: I think you're probably right about the Porsche.

Here's in a few brief words what Surer later said about the crash: The Winkelhock crash at Mosport was caused by a damaged tyre. During the next race at Spa there was another accident Jonathan Palmer had with a Lloyds-Porsche - again because of a damaged tyre. In both cases probably a slow-puncture. Palmer was lucky to escape with only minor injuries - because he had inspected the Winkelhock wreck after the Mosport accident and realized an uncovered strut in the cockpit. The Porsche was built for all drivers - even a tall driver like Hans Stuck easily found enough room in their cockpit. Smaller drivers had to place their seat further forward (to reach the pedals) so that their head came very close to a strut of the anti roll bar next to the window. Winkelhock exactly hit that strut - and suffered serious head injuries. Knowing that, Palmer covered that strut and gave his team the advice to place his seat more 'midships' - so he got off lightly...

It's probably right to say that Porsche suffered more accidents - simply because there were a lot of Porsches! I don't know whether this theme was discussed in this forum or not, but it would be an interesting thread anyway - the influence of the Porsche 956/962 on sportscar-racing. One can argue all day about whether Porsche helped or hindered the progress of sportscar racing by making the 956/962C model available to customers. For years and years the works team, Joest, kremer, Brun, Lloyd (just to name a few) dominated at LeMans (and on other tracks) in a way that no manufacturer ever done before. Was it overkill, or would the famous 24-hour-race (and others) have lost their attraction through lack of competetive cars?

[TODave2]

Originally posted by William Hunt
A car that immediately comes to mind is the Brabham BT55 used by Riccardo Patrese and Derek Warwick who replaced Elio de Angelis who lost his life in a BT55 at Paul Ricard.

But was the car actually dangerous through design? I know Elio lost his life in it, but by that reasoning many cars through the years have been dangerous. I wasn't aware of any particular design fault with the BT55... or was there? (interested)

[Milan Fistonic]

In the Motoring News report of the 1968 US Grand Prix there is a photo of Rindt's Brabham with the rear wing all askew and the write refers to a Heath Robinson arrangement of cables that was used to adjust the angle of the wing while on the move.
Two weeks later this letter appeared on the Letters to the Editor page.

Not with Brabham

As members of the Brabham Racing organisation, we wish to repudiate the fallacy that Mr Heath Robinson is employed by, or technical advisor to this company.
However, in the interests of maintaining our fine reputation, we have carried out some investigation to try and locate this elusive character to whom several developments of our F1 cars have been accredited.
The only light to have been shed upon our enquiries is a suggestion that Mr Heath Robinson is perhaps a distant relative of another well known team manager!

Mr N.P. Goozee, Mr M. Cuss, Brabham Racing Organisation, Weybridge, Surrey

[deangelis86]

Originally posted by TODave2


But was the car actually dangerous through design? I know Elio lost his life in it, but by that reasoning many cars through the years have been dangerous. I wasn't aware of any particular design fault with the BT55... or was there? (interested)

Decide for yourself at http://www.geocities...ey_uk/page2.htm

I don't know why the rear wing broke, but it was probably due to 1 of 2 things - bad design or bad worksmanship.

Nelson Piquet and Derek Warwick certainly thought that the BT55 was dangerous, Piquet basing his assumption on just looking at it - but Warwick was once quoted as saying the BT55 chassis was 'dangerous' and that 'it flexed'.

So I guess we can assume then that the BT55 was something of a dangerous chassis, but the jury is out as to whether or not that actually contributed to Elio's fatal accident.

[Gary Davies]

Here's Frank Gardner on the early 917s:

"This was one of the very first 917s, with an alloy chassis, which was gas-filled. There was a big gauge in the cockpit, which measured the gas pressure, and that was there to keep you informed of the chassis's condition. If it zeroed, they said, that meant that the chassis was broken, and I should drive mit care back to the pits.

"Once I knew what the gauge was for, I also knew that if it zeroed I wasn't going to drive it mit care anywhere. I was going to park the bastard there and then, pick up my Deutschmarks and get home to Mum...

"Then there was the engine. You had about 300 horsepower at 5000 revs, and then between 5000 and 6000 you picked up another 300! So it was a bit of delight, really, and it was on narrow nine-inch rims all round. The computer had said that nine-inch rims would make the car very quick in a straight line, but the computer wasn't strapped in the bloody seat up in the Eifel mountains, where you tend to get the odd corner..."

[stevew]

How about the first (I think) UOP Shadow Can-Am car?

It looked like a little roller-skate with a huge engine shoved into the back. It had tiny wheels and looked to barely have room for the driver.

There was a picture of it in RACER magazine a few months ago (can't find that issue )

[stevew]

Originally posted by 2F-001
Having seen the monocoque after David Purley's Silverstone accident, it would be tempting to suggest that car was not entirely crash-worthy. That was a serious impact though, and I don't know how it's contemporaries would have fared in the same shunt.

Here's a (rather graphic) quote from the 1977-78 AUTOCOURSE:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"David Purley's practice accident at Silverstone emphasised how strong Formula 1 cars have become. Owing to a stuck open throttle, Purley's Lec crashed into the banking, stopping from 120 mph in 26 inches! True, Purley was very seriously injured - dislocated collar bone, dislocated heels, seven broken ribs, five pelvic fractures, eight fractures in the left leg, left foot broken in two places and right foot broken in seven places - but up until a few years ago his car would have become a blazing mangled wreck from which no one could have escaped alive."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember those days; when a car crashed and didn't go up in a ball of fire, it was considered to be "progress"...

[McRonalds]

Originally posted by Buford
The vast majority of the cars that raced in the 1970's and 1980's were totally unsafe.

It seems there had been unsafe pace-cars too

[stevew]

That was Eldon Palmer, a local car dealer, in 1971.

As I remember, he had practiced his "start" and "stop" the whole month and based his braking point in pit lane on a small flag placed on the grass strip between the pits and the track wall. On race day, the little flag had been removed and he just kept barrell-assing along... and there was a photographer's stand right at the end of the pits (which he is just about to hit)...

I don't remember if anybody was killed, but there was a journalist, I believe from Argentina(?) who was seriously injured.

[rdrcr]

It seems as though the gist of this topic revolves around unsafe by design or workmanship... Thus I'd say as gifted a designer and innovator as Colin Chapman was, his predilection for saving weight would have made his Lotus cars very unsafe.

But I suppose other than the oddity like the Hurst sidecar Indy racer (which I'd never seen before) I'd say the early racing cars with no real safety features must be included as they were probably the most unsafe machines ever piloted... No belts or roll-over protection and nothing more than a leather brain-bucket so they could pick up your squashed melon without too much trouble.

Of course the rule change by NASCAR in '99 to allow the increased stiffness in the chassis ultimately proved to be unsafe. Resulting in the deaths of many and causing a major overhaul (hopefully) in the way NASCAR runs its rule making processes.

[Hitch]

Originally posted by stevew
How about the first (I think) UOP Shadow Can-Am car?

It looked like a little roller-skate with a huge engine shoved into the back. It had tiny wheels and looked to barely have room for the driver.

There was a picture of it in RACER magazine a few months ago (can't find that issue )

Do you think we can call this one a unsafe car? It was a (very) unconventional car and it was a flop that never ran properly on the racetracks - but I'm not sure whether it was unsafe or not. Maybe designer Trevor Harris thought about his old soap-boax when he designed the car.

[Hitch]

...maybe I have to revise myself: looks like George Follmer was sitting on a hot seat...

[Buford]

Originally posted by stevew
That was Eldon Palmer, a local car dealer, in 1971.

As I remember, he had practiced his "start" and "stop" the whole month and based his braking point in pit lane on a small flag placed on the grass strip between the pits and the track wall. On race day, the little flag had been removed and he just kept barrell-assing along... and there was a photographer's stand right at the end of the pits (which he is just about to hit)...

I don't remember if anybody was killed, but there was a journalist, I believe from Argentina(?) who was seriously injured.

Yes that is accurate. The journalist was Dr Vicente Alvarez. I just told a short version of the story in the Pace Car thread. I will cut and paste from that also active thread.


------------------------------------------------------
.Actually what happened with Eldon Palmer at Indy was there was a flag pole near the starting line all month when he practiced. It was on the grass strip next to the track where the pit board guys stand. He used that flag pole as his braking point. On race day, with all the crowds now in the stands and all the excitement he never noticed the flag pole had been removed. When he came down pit lane due to the crowd in the stand which were not there when he practiced he was having a hard time locating his flag pole (which in fact wasn't there). He drove 3/4 down the length of the pit lane looking to his right before he looked ahead and saw the fast approaching end with the photographers stand.

At that point he was screwed because he could not go to his right back out to the track's exit lane and let the drivers handle it because there was a line of yellow shirt guards holding a rope extending across the opening. He locked it up, got kind of sideways, and hit the photographer stand which was a flat bed trailer on wheels. Several people were injured. The worst was a family friend of ours, Dr. Vicinte Alvarez from Argentina. My father gave permission to do brain surgury at the hospital after the race because there was no one else to sign the papers.

Alvarez recovered after a long three year process but never was able to go back to practicing medicine. Palmer helped him out financially and in subsequent visits over the years Dr. Alvarez stayed at Mr. Palmers house during the month of May. The last time this was discussed last summer somebody posted a link to photos of all this.

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by Hitch
...maybe I have to revise myself: looks like George Follmer was sitting on a hot seat...

Notice No crutch straps
They probably didn't fit with the Balls needed to drive that thing

[McRonalds]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
Notice No crutch straps
They probably didn't fit with the Balls needed to drive that thing

Really nice pic, hitch!

[Ray Bell]

Funny how the Gardner comments have played into this thread when old Frank presided over the development of a line of cars that were to prove very dangerous to drivers' legs.

The Lola T300 and T330 series cars were very lightly built in the front end and many a driver developed what became known as the Lola Limp due to total chassis collapse at the merest 100mph contact with fences, walls, trees and so on.

The Lotus 18, with its driveshaft/top link should rate a mention... Stirling Moss would probably say so.

[Jeroen Brink]

Unsafe cars: everything with one of the Brambillas behind the wheel

[2F-001]

stevew-
Thanks for that extract fom Autocourse... I was going to mention that Purley's monocoque from Silverstone is in the Donington Museum - but I now notice that this is not exactly convenient for you...

I wince a little when I see pictures of the Lotus 63, 64 (and maybe other 4WD single seaters) where the driver has his shins directly beneath a tube carrying the front drive shafts, having threaded his feet under it to get in.

[Doug Nye]

What a fascinating thread... Seems to me many of us are confusing 'unsafe car' with 'unusual car' and the two are not necessarily the same thing. Basically any machine designed to do what racing cars are meant to do best will pose a risk to its intrepid pilote - some minimise that risk better than others. The Maki cited previously was crashed at the Nurburgring - by Kiwi Howden Ganley, I seem to recall? - and Bernie Ecclestone later said "I wouldn't have a water tank made the way that monocoque's been built"...

I think the open-cockpit Alan Mann Ford P69 was broken up and does not survive - one day in the early to mid-1970s Ford UK's press chief Harry Calton telephoned me to say that both surviving Ford P68 Coupes were about to be scrapped, cos FoMoCo needed the space! The third car had been destroyed in Chris Irwin's terrible crash at the 'Ring. Harry asked me to ask Tom Wheatcroft - with whom I was consultant at the time - if he'd give the P68s storage room at Donington Park. I called Tom, he said "Send 'em oop lad" and so we saved them from the crusher. Thanks to Harry.
That was a close-run thing.

They were nasty, nervous little under-developed short-wheelbase things - but gorgeous!

I would doubt that the air-cooled Honda - French GP 1968 - was much more dangerous than any rival F1 car per se - but it WAS under-developed and unraceworthy, which is again a different thing. It killed poor Schlesser - and the sight of the magnesium fire so deterred Dan Gurney that he ended Tony Southgate's mag-skinned chassis project for the 1969 F1 Eagle.

As for Porsche - well, for years they'd arranged for the driver's feet to arive first at the scene of the accident... Ever had a close look at a 908/3?????? The 917 in Dr Bott...

No - I think the most lethally dangerous major-league racing car ever exposed to true race conditions was the Mickey Thompson 'Harvey Aluminum Special' which took Dave McDonald at Indy in 1964.

Sir Jack Brabham still says his life was saved by erstwhile Thompson driver Masten Gregory - who made a point pre-race of telling him to keep his eye on McDonald during those fuel-heavy opening laps. Jack did just that and the moment the car began to get out of shape he was on the brakes. He is adamant that Masten's warning saved his life - Eddie Sachs was not so prepared, and it killed him too as he ran into McDonald's spinning wreck, and both were consumed in the fire.

DCN

[Doug Nye]

I still can't control this Internet thingy with any great competence.

The senctence previously posted which reads 'The 917 in Dr Bott' was written as 'The 917 in its original form on spindly narrow rims and Dunlop tyres was just lethal - and at the 'Ring Piper and Gardner said as much and were real heroes to endure to the end and earn an Eisenkreuz each from a delighted Dr Bott'.

I hope that makes more sense.

DCN

[ray b]

M-B flying Le Mans GTp cars surly deserve an addion to list
as most resent MAJOR disaster by a BIG NAME!!!!!

[2F-001]

One of the P68 coupés was winning in historic racing last year (forget the driver's name for the minute). Are these in private hands now? Someone else was racing one a few years ago (with less success) - think it was Laurence Jacobsen (??).
That is a lovely looking car.
I understand that Jim Clark had been pencilled-in to drive that in '68 at Brands - a race that would have prevented him from driving the 48 at Hockenheim... Does anyone know any more about that?

[Doug Nye]

Jimmy had indeed been asked to drive a P68 at Brands that numbing day but when he asked about a chance to test the car - be fitted to it - accommodation details etc - they seemed terribly disorganised and he was unimpressed by the ensuing faffing about and delays - so he fulfilled his GLTL F2 commitment without question - and lost his life.

The P68s survive in the historic world today - and a stretched-wheelbase replica has been built to replace the Irwin wreck in effect.

As for Mercedes' performance at Le Mans when Mark Webber flipped and Dumbreck cartwheeled into the trees during the race... In my humble opinion the entire operation's management should have been culled on the spot. In effect they subborned inexperienced and anxious young drivers into competing with inadequately tested cars whose bodyshape - my informants assure me - had never even been in a moving-ground wind tunnel. One had reportedly lifted its front wheels off the road during high speed testing at Fontana, but was wrestled down again by good fortune.

The Dumbreck car which went off in the race landed flat in that freshly cleared area of former woodland, and its carbon tub was impaled upon a tree stump standing some 18-inches high. The stump penetrated the bottom of the sill beside the driver - a foot to one side and it would have penetrated right beneath his seat, and forced him up through his seat belts and would surely have killed or incapacitated him for the rest of his life.

Again in my opinion, Mercedes-Benz's declaration that they would not race again at Le Mans - 'because the circuit is dangerous for modern cars' - was a disgrace to their name. BMW's response was brilliant - after they won the race - it read simply 'BMW cars operate just fine on any kind of road'.

I was reminded of something Rudi Uhlenhaut said to me towards the end of his wonderful life of high attainment - talking of other matters Mercedes - "In my day such people would not have been employed by Daimler-Benz...".

Does Karl have a view on this matter....Let's compromise all our commercial relationships in one hit shall we??????

DCN

[McRonalds]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I was reminded of something Rudi Uhlenhaut said to me towards the end of his wonderful life of high attainment - talking of other matters Mercedes - "In my day such people would not have been employed by Daimler-Benz...".

What a statement: hard, but also true!

I think the Webber crash was one of the hardest ones I've ever seen. I remember, I came back to TV after eating some kind of snack, when I saw the car take off and flip. I think the snack fell right out of my mouth. I was happy when (after an endless ti, as it appeared to me) all was clear.

I still can't believe Mercedes sent such a car into the race...

[McRonalds]

P68 again: I always though Irwins crash at the Nurburgring was caused by snow/rain/showers during that horrible weekend '68, but sportcars/prototypes are not my specialty. Maybe someone knows more about that.

[Buford]

Not trying to be a dick here Doug because I know you are a noted historian. Because of that I wish to point out it is spelled Dave MacDonald not McDonald.

[Doug Nye]

Buford - I have just amputated one hand in penance - bellyful of knowledge, but it's got a tough road out... Sorry pardon.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I would doubt that the air-cooled Honda - French GP 1968 - was much more dangerous than any rival F1 car per se - but it WAS under-developed and unraceworthy, which is again a different thing.

I'm rather glad to see you agree with me on this, Doug... there is a thread somewhere about it ... or two, and that FJ refused to drive it due to this lack of raceworthiness...

Doug Nye continues...
Sir Jack Brabham still says his life was saved by erstwhile Thompson driver Masten Gregory - who made a point pre-race of telling him to keep his eye on McDonald during those fuel-heavy opening laps. Jack did just that and the moment the car began to get out of shape he was on the brakes. He is adamant that Masten's warning saved his life - Eddie Sachs was not so prepared, and it killed him too as he ran into McDonald's spinning wreck, and both were consumed in the fire.

As mentioned before, Jack told me he "just about pushed the master cylinder out the front of the car.." as he jammed the brakes on... by the way, Lex Davison's mechanic, Lou Russo, has overseen the reconstruction of the car in which Jack enjoyed this adventure... no real stressmarks round the master cylinder mount, or, indeed, anywhere else... what do you reckon?



John Harvey delighted to do a couple of demo laps at Phillip Island in the car last weekend...



Jack did most of the driving, of course, and also of the 66 F1 car, was in big demand for photos and autographs... including from Stephen Oliver, who got him to autograph the posters and programmes from all nine AGPs in which Jack competed... and photos from the ones he won!

[Buford]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Buford - I have just amputated one hand in penance - bellyful of knowledge, but it's got a tough road out... Sorry pardon.

As I said I was not trying to be a smart ass. I assume if you intended to use the name in a book or article you would have checked. But just in case, I thought I'd mention it because I know you are a stickler for accuracy.

[McRonalds]

I think another major culprit in the Indy crash '64 was the use of explosive gasoline in the Ford V8 - for DVS had planned to go the 500 miles with only one single stop. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think gasoline was outlawed in favor of methanol - and they raced with methanol still last year - as a result of this firecrash.

And if you take a look at Eddie Sachs' car - I would call that car 'a little bit' unsafe too. The gas tank is mounted outboard, without EVEN BODYWORK for protection - the anti roll bar is more or less decoration. And - imagine that car without the tank and the giant Ford engine - what a tiny car!!