20 replies to this topic

[AdrianM]

I was thinking about this last night. If Jim Clark, the greatest IMO , was not killed in that F2 race at Hockenheim in '68, how long would he have continued in F1 or other motorsports for that matter. He often spoke about going back to his farm in Scotland where he felt must comfortable. I think he would have beaten Graham Hill to the '68 title but retired at the end of that year. He loved driving but I feel he would not have liked the commercial era which began in '68.
What are your thoughts?

[Paste]

It's too bad that all we can do is speculate, but I guess that's the case with so many greats who's lives were cut short.

[Ray Bell]

The commercial era, however, brought financial rewards to the drivers as well... maybe he would have gone on a few years to reap the benefits of them?

[Redliner]

Hmmm interesting question, my own personal feeling is 1974 or there abouts he would have quit. Clark in a Lotus 72? Ooooooh nice.

[Buford]

Of course if he hadn't got it when he did, he might have gotten it some time later. Maybe Rindt wouldn't have been in that 72 at Monza that day. It was a very dangerous era.

[Gary Davies]

Yes, a fascinating subject for speculation. I've always felt that Jim would not be one to go on and on and on ... although I've never seen anything evidential to support that view.

This thread caused me to pull "Jim Clark - Portrait of a great driver" from the shelf. In this book, Graham Gauld roped in assorted eminences to contribute on various aspects of Clark's life and career.

Here's a part of Chapman's contribution: " ... he later tried an American stock car race, because it was something new, and he enjoyed tackling new things. He would get as much fun out of driving a kart as he would out of driving a racing car. Anything that needed co-ordination and control was exciting to him.

"For the same reason, he really loved flying. In fact I remember just before his accident, he was talking about his future and what he was going to do when he stopped racing, and he said he finally made up his mind that he wouldn't in fact go back to farming. He still loved it, but I think he would have found it difficult to go back to after the excitement and turmoil of racing, flying and the life he had been leading. I think he wanted to settle down in some branch of the aviation business. He certainly had some business investments in aviation in Australia, although I do not think he could have settled down there, as some people imagined. He certainly enjoyed Australia and New Zealand very much, he enjoyed the climate and he enjoyed the people (Australia I think more than New Zealand). While I don't know if he would have gone out there to live, I don't think so; I think he would have probably have come back to Europe.

"It is difficult to say, of course, how long he might have gone on racing. We had talked about it briefly and I think he would certainly have seen the current formula out to 1970..

"In his racing, one achievement was not fulfilled - he had won every major Grand Prix apart from Monaco ..."

Rereading this I find myself speculating that perhaps he might have gone on to the end of 1972. He would have been 36 by then.

And if he had ... considering the men and their cars who won the Championship in those years, and with the very greatest of respect to them all, I can well imagine Jim winning five titles between 1968 and 1972.

Vanwall.

[LittleChris]

I seem to remember that Stirling Moss said that if he hadn't had his accident in 1962, he envisaged that he would have kept on in GP's until 1973. What an era it could have been with both Jimmy & Stirling !!

[Dave Ware]

What an era it could have been with both Jimmy & Stirling !!

There's a great premise for a fictional book - Clark and Moss in the late '60s and early '70s, Clark in the works Lotus, Moss in Rob Walker's, battleing it out with Stewart and Rindt. Take away Stewart's Spa accident (Innes Ireland once said that if not for Spa, and if Clark had lived, Stewart would be beating Clark on equal terms.) Amon stays at Ferrari. Oh, I suppose the book would have a very small readership, but it would be fun.

Dave

[Martyj]

I've pretty much read every book on Clark, and my feeling from all these sources that in the last year of his life, Jim was changing into a different person. Much more "worldly" in the words of Jackie Stewart.

Through much of the mid-sixties, he was in a serious relationship with his girlfriend, Sally Stokes, and the notion of retirement and marriage was kind of on the horizon. However, when they broke up in early 67, Jim found a renewed passion for continuing racing much longer. I believe he would have lasted in the sport probably within the same retirement time frame as Hill/Surtees/Stewart in the 1973-75 range. WHo knows? I think he would have continued to run in a variety of types. It was his style to fill up his schedule with races whenever possible, and I think this would not have changed.

I also think that he would have embraced the commercialization of the sport. From my various readings, Jim was very much the Scotsman when it came to money. He was careful with it, worried about it, and sought it out. My hunch is he would have embraced it a bit like Jackie Stewart, but perhaps not in such an outgoing, extroverted manner. Then again, all his friends say that in his last year of life he was finding more of an extroverted nature, so maybe he would have followed Stewart and Hill and become more of a visible spokesman and endorser for the sport. Everybody who has written about him agrees that in his last year he was far from the shy-farmer stereotype.

I also wonder would he have remained loyal to Lotus through-out the rest of his years? With the Cosworth being so available, new teams were springing up in the late 60's and early 70's for star drivers. It's not hard to image a group like MARCH building a GP effort around Clark and the Cosworth. Especially when I read how much tension there was between Clark and Chapman over money. And it was Ford money that really kept Clark with Lotus through these final years.

Finally, I think in his last months Jimmy was on track towards keeping pace with Stewart as the "mod scot". If you look at his Hockenhiem pictures, his hair was starting to shape up with that late-sixties influence. He was living in Paris, after all, and was becoming much more cosmopolitan. I supose the only thing we can be thankful for is that we were spared the sight of him sporting that hideous early 70's fashion look that spread through the paddock.

[Dennis David]

I know this is all wishful conjecture but I thing that after winning the championship in 1968 or 69 he would have retired. From what I understand he did not care much for the new formula feeling that it did not require quite the skill that the 1500cc formula did. He also felt that the danger would increase because the added horsepower would, because it required less skill in his mind, compress the field and allow younger drivers with more balls than skill the chance to force their way to the front ranks.

I also remember that Brabham felt that this would dull some of Clark's advantage and that he, Brabham, was very much in favour of the new formula feeling that the increased power would make for "proper" race cars.

Could this be a reflection of each driver's relative skills and weaknesses?

[William Hunt]

I also believe that Clark wouldn't have continued long. Untill 1970 or something.

But my question is : Clark always drove for Lotus. Did other teams get close on tempting him away, was he ever in serious negotiations with other teams ? I can imagine that teams like Ferrari, BRM or Brabham must have been very keen of having the best driver in their team.

[Buford]

Originally posted by Dennis David

I also remember that Brabham felt that this would dull some of Clark's advantage and that he, Brabham, was very much in favour of the new formula feeling that the increased power would make for "proper" race cars.

Could this be a reflection of each driver's relative skills and weaknesses?

I don't know. He drove proper race cars in America with big power and others with the same amount and smoked them here too.

[Wolf]

Originally posted by Dennis David
I know this is all wishful conjecture but I thing that after winning the championship in 1968 or 69 he would have retired. From what I understand he did not care much for the new formula feeling that it did not require quite the skill that the 1500cc formula did. He also felt that the danger would increase because the added horsepower would, because it required less skill in his mind, compress the field and allow younger drivers with more balls than skill the chance to force their way to the front ranks.

I also remember that Brabham felt that this would dull some of Clark's advantage and that he, Brabham, was very much in favour of the new formula feeling that the increased power would make for "proper" race cars.

Could this be a reflection of each driver's relative skills and weaknesses?

Dennis, this is almost exact view (although in different direction) Moss held on introduction of 1500cc instead of 2500cc Formula (apart from risk point of view). Not only did he contionue to race but he managed to find new technique to set himself above his peers and confirm his prestige. I wouldn't trust Jimmy not to have done just the same.;)

[Prostfan]

I just tried to imagine Rindt and Clark in the Lotus 72 1970. Could have been a marvellous year. I wonder who of the two would have done better?

[Ray Bell]

Paris? I thought he moved to Switzerland for the tax haven there?

As for Moss and Clark at the end of that decade, I don't think the Walker team would have been running a Lotus at all... Jim would have the best gear and Stirling had said in 1961 that he'd need equal equipment to beat him.

Moss in a Brabham, more likely, replacing Hulme and running alongside Jack... now that would have been a team!

And the lubrication troubles of the quad-cam Repcos might have been sorted out with the results that would have promised (and the income Stirling would have been generating)!

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Paris? I thought he moved to Switzerland for the tax haven there?

No Ray, Jimmy was based in Paris - where he shared a flat with Jabby Crombac (although he wasn't there much) - and in Bermuda, where he bought himself a flat in 1967.

He used Paris as a base as it was convenient for London and Edinburgh and because the French press left him in comparative peace. His life in Paris revolved around the Club Sport Auto and Crombac's office, where he used to read the latest British press reports.

[Ray Bell]

Did he, then, apply for Swiss citizenship, or try to qualify for it?

I recall reports of the day said he was relying on Switzerland to provide the tax shelter he wanted.

[Vitesse2]

He might have had Swiss investments, but I've never seen anything about him moving there. I think Jimmy might have considered it a betrayal of his country - hence Bermuda.

Stewart and Rindt, on the other hand, did move there ...

[effone2k]

Originally posted by AdrianM
I was thinking about this last night. If Jim Clark, the greatest IMO , was not killed in that F2 race at Hockenheim in '68, how long would he have continued in F1 or other motorsports for that matter. He often spoke about going back to his farm in Scotland where he felt must comfortable. I think he would have beaten Graham Hill to the '68 title but retired at the end of that year. He loved driving but I feel he would not have liked the commercial era which began in '68.
What are your thoughts?

Jim Clark, the greatest

[Dennis David]

Living in Paris did afford him some tax benefits though.

[Dennis David]

Wolf and Buford, Clark could have adapted if the desire was there but he felt that his advantage would not have been as great forcing him to take more chances which is what he was worried about.

I'm remined of his attitude to Spa. He hated racing there, felt it was too dangerous yet he always seemed to dominate there.