33 replies to this topic

[Rainer Nyberg]

Another GP team went into the history books today. Prost GP is no more.
Sad to see the grid lose the Ligier/Prost team and let´s see if it can be revived. Some how after Alain Prost's takeover of the french Ligier team, they never fulfulled any of the promise that was shown in the mid-1990s.

Let's see if the return of Renault can keep the french tricolors waving.

[Michael Müller]

Bargain for Volkswagen - now or never! Buy it, rename to Bugatti, move to the new Molsheim factory, use the Audi engine which acc. to some rumours currently is under development, and back to old glory of blue-coloured Grand Prix machinery from Alsace.

[Yorgos]

Originally posted by Michael Müller
Bargain for Volkswagen - now or never! Buy it, rename to Bugatti, move to the new Molsheim factory, use the Audi engine which acc. to some rumours currently is under development, and back to old glory of blue-coloured Grand Prix machinery from Alsace.

Unfortunately, Piech is on his way out. He's the only person who could make such a plan work ...

Yorgos

[cv2000]

Well with the breakaway series picking up steam no investor would want to sink money into this
at the moment. Also I think Diniz got screwed on this deal - I doubt he will get paid before the creditors are.

[Yorgos]

Originally posted by cv2000
Well with the breakaway series picking up steam no investor would want to sink money into this
at the moment. Also I think Diniz got screwed on this deal - I doubt he will get paid before the creditors are.

Why should he get paid? He is a shareholder and he has a responsibility towards the creditors and the personnel.

Yorgos

[Megatron]

I hope if VW come into F1, they use thier own, or perhaps Audi's, name. All we need is another big time automaker coming into F1 pretending to be someone else.

Sad about Prost, but the guy made a lot of bad calls. The only decent Prost ever was the 97, and that was from the Ligier riegin and the car was a cousin of the 1995 Benetton.

[Hitch]

The make I felt sorry about was Ligier (one of my all time favourites) - but that's long gone. Megatron is absolutely right - after '97 (with the Ligier/Benetton-inheritance) Prost achieved nothing. No big loss for F1. Prost is the last one in a series of former F1-champions who failed when switching from cockpit to desk - just remember John Surtees, Graham Hill or Emerson Fittipaldi...

[Wolf]

Audi has it's sportscars, VW and Seat are somewhat involved in WRC and Bugatti is prestigious brand as it is...

Go Skoda F1!!!!!!!! Let's kick Toyota's arse!

On a more serious note, IIRC Audi seems still to be the owner of Auto Union brand (as well as Horch, DKW and Wanderer; not sure about Borgward)... And Auto Union being (AFAIK) the brand that introduced mid-engine concept to GP racing.;)

[FEV]

Prost is the last one in a series of former F1-champions who failed when switching from cockpit to desk - just remember John Surtees, Graham Hill or Emerson Fittipaldi...

I find you a bit cruel on that one Hitch ! Surtees was quite successful IMHO (Hailwood European F2 Champion, the first F1 cars were great, the F5000s were decent, but the money ran out). Graham Hill's team was promising, and Stommelen and Brise did great things with the car in 1975. Fittipaldi could have done better I agree. Stewart created a winning team. Brabham won all over the world. I would dare say that Prost is in fact one of the few F1 World Champions failed the switch from driver to team owner. His biggest error was to try and do an all-French team. The political support Ligier had was gone since a long time in France, and simply put no one as BOTH the money and an interest for F1 to help him ! Sad for he his a nice person, and the people who work with him deserve better.

[Hitch]

Skoda F1 would be nice - but VW surely don't dare that:-) But imagine such a car would be sucessful...

FEV, I'm sure all former champions have expected more than just a F2-championship (Surtees) and one single win (Stewart). Brabham of course showed how to do it right!

[rdrcr]

Following are facts and figures about the Prost Formula One team which was declared bankrupt on Monday:

Based: Guyancourt, France.

Team principal: Alain Prost.

The team went through five drivers in 2001 after starting the season with Frenchman Jean Alesi and Argentine Gaston Mazzacane.

The under-performing Mazzacane was replaced after four races by Brazilian Luciano Burti.

Alesi left in August to join Jordan after that team dismissed Germany's Heinz-Harald Frentzen. Frentzen took Alesi's place. Burti was then substituted for the last three races by Czech Tomas Enge after crashing heavily at Spa.

Alesi scored all four of their points in 2001, allowing Prost to finish the season in ninth place.

Car (2001 model) Prost AP04, powered by Ferrari V10 engine.

Tyres: Michelin.

Formula One record:

Starts 83, poles 0, wins 0

The team was formerly Ligier, founded in 1976 by French rugby star and F1 amateur Guy Ligier. They made 326 starts, had nine poles and nine wins.

1997 - Team makes debut under new name after takeover of Ligier by former world champion Alain Prost.

1998 - Technical director John Barnard, who worked with Prost at McLaren, signed from Arrows.

1999 - Former Stewart designer Alan Jenkins joins.

2000 - Engine suppliers Peugeot announce they quitting Formula One. Brazilian former GP driver Pedro Diniz buys "significant'' stake in the team. Spaniard Joan Villadelprat joins as managing director with Frenchman Henri Durand appointed technical director. Ferrari engines secured.

2001 - Financial troubles mount.

October - Prost admits problems but denies they are terminal. Says a big sponsor is needed, willing to invest at least $25 million.

September - Ferrari say they still waiting to hear from Prost on an engine deal for 2002.

August - Prost slams critics and denies media reports that the team had failed to pay for their Ferrari engines or Alesi's full wages.

November - Team goes into receivership on November 22 with debts estimated at $28 million.

2002:

January 28 - Team declared bankrupt.


Season by season:

1997 - sixth, 21 points (drivers - Olivier Panis/Shinji Nakano/Jarno Trulli).

1998 - ninth, one point (Panis/Trulli).

1999 - seventh, nine points (Panis/Trulli).

2000 - 11th, no points (Alesi/Nick Heidfeld).

2001 - ninth, four points (Alesi/Mazzacane/Burti/Frentzen/Enge)


It takes more than just a few steps across the pit lane to go from Formula One world champion to successful team boss.

The odds are stacked against the drivers making the transition and the failure of Alain Prost's team on Monday is further proof of something that men like McLaren team principal Ron Dennis have known all along. The big money world of 'Piranha Club' bosses is an unforgiving place in which the talents that got a driver to the top are not enough.

"Formula One is a tough business and it is difficult to succeed,'' said Dennis at the launch of the McLaren 2002 car in Barcelona a week ago.

"I'm not directing my comments at Alain Prost or Niki Lauda but I do feel there is a trait of naivety when people expect automatic performance from those who have excelled as drivers,'' he added.
"To run a grand prix team well you need an engineering background, and that's just the beginning. They should also know about budgets, motivating people, solving problems and inspiring.''

Prost himself recognised that when he was at Ferrari in 1991, before they dispensed with his services: "Ron Dennis is a leader of men, a catalyst of energies, he is completely respected. That's what's missing here,'' he said.

Austrian Niki Lauda is now the only former champion with a hands-on role in the grand prix paddock as team principal of Ford-owned Jaguar. That team was originally Stewart Grand Prix, founded by three times champion Jackie Stewart until Ford took over and renamed it in 2000. Stewart at least saw his team win a race, more than Prost did or Lauda has done yet, with Johnny Herbert steaming through the rain to triumph at the Nuerburgring in 1999.

Australian Jack Brabham stands out as the first driver to win both a race and a championship in a car bearing his own name.

Graham Hill died in 1975 after starting up his Embassy Racing Team.

Briton John Surtees, a motorcycle and Formula One champion, had his own team from 1970 to 1978 but never won a race as a constructor. "He thought he knew everything there was to know about racing,'' his former driver and future champion Alan Jones commented years later. "Former drivers always think they know best. Their driver is just a surrogate for themselves.''

The more successful team owners, in much the same way that many of the world's top soccer managers made little impact as professional players, do not rank among any list of Formula One's top drivers.

Frank Williams and the ever entrepreneurial Eddie Jordan tried and then turned to management, Renault's Flavio Briatore was a manager for Benetton before he entered motor sport and Paul Stoddart made his money in aviation.

Three of the current bosses started their motorsport careers in rallying -- Ferrari's Jean Todt and BAR's David Richards as co-drivers -- and Toyota's Ove Andersson as a driver.

[McRonalds]

No, I never was a Prost fan (too cool style of driving - I prefer a hothead like Jean Behra(:-), but it's always sad to see a Grand Prix team give up - there are not so many left.

[Prostfan]

Another team gone, only eleven left.

Prost was an excellent driver, but unfortunately he never was a good team manager.

I wonder if Frentzen or Verstappen won't get a drive in 2002.

[McRonalds]

I remember in '92 Prost did a lot of testing the Ligier and it was a rumour at that time that he would join Ligier as a driver/teamowner - finally he prefered Williams (a wise decision). I wonder whether he knew exactly what awaits him when he took over Ligier in '97.

[bobbo]

Cynical though this may sound - and it is to a degree - it at least opens up a slot for another manufacturer. If anyone is interested.

Still, adieu, Alain.

Bobbo

[William Hunt]

Originally posted by McRonalds
No, I never was a Prost fan (too cool style of driving - I prefer a hothead like Jean Behra(:-), but it's always sad to see a Grand Prix team give up - there are not so many left.

I coudn't have said it better. I also detest Prost but I'm very sad to see another team go. I always liked Ligier a lot and it's a pitty this is what became of it.

If Volkswagen comes into F1 I hope it will revive the Bugatti name.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Hitch
Prost is the last one in a series of former F1-champions who failed when switching from cockpit to desk - just remember John Surtees, Graham Hill or Emerson Fittipaldi...

And contra the unsuccessful drivers who went on to much better things - Ferrari, Williams, Maserati (take your pick), Chapman, Nunn, Broadley, Tauranac, and, yes, Ligier

[Zawed]

Damn I was really hoping that Prost would be thrown a lifeline. Alas it was not to be...though, like bobbo said, there is now room for a major manufacturer to step in. And it will have to be a major manufacturer in order to survive.

[William Hunt]

Originally posted by ensign14


And contra the unsuccessful drivers who went on to much better things - Ferrari, Williams, Maserati (take your pick), Chapman, Nunn, Broadley, Tauranac, and, yes, Ligier

Enzo Ferrari was actually quite an excellent driver.

[McRonalds]

No one of course was a bad driver - but - they knew (at last) what their real talent was. I wonder if Prost really was convinced of what he was doing - as team owner(!). Ferrari, Chapman, Williams (of course!) or Ron Dennis all had their downs - but they found a way to keep on - an came back stronger than ever. Okay, some of you may say that it was an other time then.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by William Hunt
Enzo Ferrari was actually quite an excellent driver.

As excellent as perhaps 20 other Italian drivers at the same time. He was never as good as is often made out. Yes, he won a few races, but only when the best drivers were elsewhere

[Pikachu Racing]

To me, the team will alway be Ligier as I remember it. Now the Ligier legacy is gone. Prost couldn't save it. I wish there was something do with to keep it alive but its gone. Sad day.

[byrkus]

Originally posted by ensign14


And contra the unsuccessful drivers who went on to much better things - Ferrari, Williams, Maserati (take your pick), Chapman, Nunn, Broadley, Tauranac, and, yes, Ligier

You've also forgotten Alfred Neubauer. , perhaps the best team manager GP racing have ever seen.

[dmj]

Goodbye Ligier, one of my all-time favorites, team I supported in my first years of watching F1... I couldn't really like these last few seasons - spent too much time in my life talking for Senna's case and against Prost's, so how could I support a team called Prost? But their cars were blue and I could forget the fact, keeping calling them Ligiers. So, yes, I'm sad, doesn't matter who will buy the team in the end and enter F1. But I hope it will be Jacques Villeneuve, who already expressed a wish of becoming driver/team owner. It would be nice to have Villeneuve F1 team.

[William Hunt]

Originally posted by byrkus


You've also forgotten Alfred Neubauer. , perhaps the best team manager GP racing have ever seen.

Just wanted to mention him but U beat me to it Byrkus. But boy, Neubauer really was a bad driver. Enzo Ferrari was a lot better.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by William Hunt
Neubauer really was a bad driver. Enzo Ferrari was a lot better.

I would put them on a par - both were good enough to get works drives (Neubauer possibly more deserving than Ferrari) but none was ever going to win against the real aces

[William Hunt]

Alfred Neubauer never even got close to the leaders. His wife even said he should stop racing because he was a lousy driver. At least Enzo Ferrari won a race, he won Ravenna 1923 in an Alfa.

[Garagiste]

I thought Chapman wasn't too shabby behind the wheel either?

[William Hunt]

Chapman had his Vanwall qualified by Harry Schell the only time he participated in a GP

[Don Capps]

I have to agree with David and give Don Alfredo a slight nudge over Enzo. Both were talented, but not "gifted" -- but then that label fits about, oh, perhaps 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of those who have managed to reach the higher plateaus of motor sports. Sometimes circumstances, opportunities, desire, and the Sheer Dumb Luck Factor seem to play a significant role in who makes it and who doesn't. Both Neubauer and Ferrari left driving due to reasons apparently arising from family issues. Could they have been Contenders? Food for thought.

But, back to Prost GP and the empty spots on the grid. Given the enormous costs of entering the GP game these days, the distinct possibility of 2007 being the end of the trail for FIA Super-Kart, what is the "real" difference between the mindset of the FIA/WMSC and say, the USAC situation of the late 50's and early 60's? Not very much really in some ways and light years in others.

I keep wondering why the manufacturers keep saying that they will wait until 2007 when the current Concorde Agreement expires to put their own series in place. Things have obviously changed now that the bolsheviks are in the Kremlin: when they were on the outs, a contract meant only what someone wanted it to mean. That the very idea of a contract being honored or else is now a Good Thing is an alarming development in some ways. The FIA/WMSC F1 series is truly a business now and the Jacobeans have morphed into the very Girondists they claimed to have ousted. Eric Blair strikes again.

If you look at the Prost situation in one light, it differs little from how things "used to be," when teams -- and manufacturers -- entered and left racing with great frequency. Plus, there were peaks and valleys, feasts followed by famine -- and vice versa, and so forth and so on.

I am beginning to think that the current view of those managing F1 is that the past is merely statistics. What is being overlooked is that while they are reinventing F1 and rewriting the algorithms of the sport, is that he who lives by the Marketplace dies by the Marketplace. When F1 is down to perhaps only three or perhaps four teams on the grid, is it back to the future?

Is Prost the first crease in the perimeter? How healthy are many of the others? Who could be next? BAR? Jordan? Sauber? Arrows? Minardi? Jaguar? Would you want to be the PR guy handling questions about why Ford is laying off thousands, closing plants, losing billions -- yet spending well over hundred million or so on an F1 team that actually produces little, if anything, for the company? In a world where the First Commandant has now been rewritten as "Greed is Good, With enough money You are God," investors are slowly realizing that someone must be making lots of money because it isn't them -- as they conveniently overlook the staggering rise in the value of the market in the past decade.

If one looks closely at motor racing over the past century and then concentrates on the past several decades, what patterns emerge? Can the trail to the current situations in F1, CART, and sports car racing be clearly discerned and traced? Are there any connecting points? Anything to suggest the development of a thesis as to the nature of motor racing as a sport and/or a business? Has the past been totally divorced from the present?

Just thought I would raise a few points.....

[byrkus]

I was browsing through results of Ligier team, and I found and incredible thing.

There were four drivers, who achieved wins with Ligier. Jacques Laffite, Patrick Depailler, Didier Pironi and Olivier Panis. What do they have in common? Well, for start, they were all French. But there is much more morbid coincidence:

All four of them had later had some sort of accident, in which both of their legs were broken!! I mean, check out: Laffite at 1986 British GP (start of the race), Depailler at paragliding, Pironi at 1982 German GP (qualifying) and Panis at 1997 Canadian GP...

Had anyone notice that??

[deangelis86]

Another nail in the coffin of modern day F1. Very sad indeed....

[Kpy]

Originally posted by William Hunt


I also detest Prost

Well he hasn't a bad word to say about you, William !

But to be serious - why has no-one mentioned a team formed and run very much hands-on by it's undoubtably ultra-talented owner and driver? That team has won 134 GPs, second only to Ferrari, and the founder was in his era the youngest ever to win a GP.

These days it all comes down to money. Prost's main fault was to try and run an all-French team. So he went with Peugeot rather than Mugen-Honda and Peugeot turned out to be half-hearted at best, and very tetchy when anyone mentioned it.

Lack of success brings lack of sponsorship cash, which leads to lack of testing, which leads to lack of success .................... no travel money, having to pay for your engines, which leaves no money for testing, which leads to ........................

As a driver he made it all look so easy that you had to pick the right spot and viewing angle, and then watch very carefully to see why his times were as good as they were.

[ensign14]

Neubauer is cheating! He was a manager, not a constructor. If we have Neubauer, I DEMAND you include Rob Walker, or, on the Prost theme, Raymond Mays.

As for Enzo, there was that strange incident where he nearly drove in a GP (Italy, 23???) but left before the race. That suggests he would not have been a great. Certainly not alongside Bordino et al.

Forgot another proto-Prost - Nazzaro. But where do we put Charron? And how about Senechal - average constructor and THEN superb driver? (Giraud-Cabantous and Jabouille acted the same way in miniature).

I assume no-one mentioned Bruce McLaren because as a constructor he was the same as he was driver - good enough to win Grands Prix, not quite there for the World title - so he doesn't fit in the 'rubbish at one but good at the other' thread. But peerless in Can-Am of course.

Have to stop now...am beginning to confuse myself...