8 replies to this topic

[marion5drsn]

The firing orders for V-10, 72 degree block and crank.
Page #1 02-15-2002 A.D.
# 1, # 1-6-5-10-9-4-3-8-7-2
# 2, # 1-8-7-10-9-4-3-6-5-2
# 3, # 1-4-3-10-9-6-5-8-7-2
# 4, # 1-8-7-10-9-6-5-4-3-2
# 5, # 1-4-3-10-9-8-7-6-5-2
# 6, # 1-6-5-10-9-8-7-4-3-2 BEST(?)
Page #2
# 1, # 1-10-9-6-5-4-3-8-7-2
# 2, # 1-8-7-6-5-4-3-10-9-2
# 3, # 1-4-3-6-5-8-7-10-9-2
# 4, # 1-10-9-6-5-8-7-4-3-2
# 5, # 1-4-3-6-5-10-9-8-7-2
# 6, # 1-8-7-6-5-10-9-4-3-2
Page # 3
# 1 # 1-6-5-4-3-10-9-8-7-2
# 2 # 1-8-7-4-3-10-9-6-5-2
# 3 # 1-8-7-4-3-6-5-10-9-2
# 4 # 1-10-9-4-3-6-5-8-7-2 DODGE VIPER
# 5 # 1-6-5-4-3-8-7-10-9-2
# 6 # 1-10-9-4-3-8-7-6-5-2

Page # 4
# 1 # 1-6-5-8-7-4-3-10-9-2
# 2 # 1-10-9-8-7-4-3-6-5-2
# 3 # 1-6-5-8-7-10-9-4-3-2
# 4 # 1-4-3-8-7-10-9-6-5-2 BEST (?)
# 5 # 1-4-3-8-7-6-5-10-9-2
# 6 # 1-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2

V-10 CHART 72 X72
PAGE # 1 # 1 & 2 # 3 & 4 # 5 & 6 # 7 & 8 # 9 & 10
1-1 0 DEG. 72 DEG. 144 DEG. 216 DEG. 288 DEG.
1-2 0 DEG. 72 DEG. 216 DEG. 144 DEG. 288 DEG.
1-3 0 DEG. 144 DEG. 72 DEG. 216 DEG. 288 DEG.
1-4 0 DEG. 216 DEG. 72 DEG. 144 DEG. 288 DEG.
1-5 0 DEG. 144 DEG. 216 DEG. 72 DEG. 288 DEG.
1-6 0 DEG. 216 DEG. 144 DEG. 72 DEG. 288 DEG.
PAGE # 2
2-1 0 DEG. 72 DEG. 288 DEG. 216 DEG. 144 DEG.
2-2 0 DEG. 72 DEG. 288 DEG. 144 DEG. 216 DEG.
2-3 0 DEG. 144 DEG. 288 DEG. 72 DEG. 216 DEG.
2-4 0 DEG. 216 DEG. 288 DEG. 72 DEG. 144 DEG.
2-5 0 DEG. 144 DEG. 288 DEG. 216 DEG. 72 DEG.
2-6 0 DEG. 216 DEG. 288 DEG. 144 DEG. 72 DEG.
PAGE # 3
3-1 0 DEG. 288 DEG. 144 DEG. 216 DEG. 72 DEG.
3-2 0 DEG. 288 DEG. 216 DEG. 144 DEG. 72 DEG.
3-3 0 DEG. 288 DEG. 72 DEG. 144 DEG. 216 DEG.
3-4 0 DEG. 288 DEG. 72 DEG. 216 DEG. 144 DEG.
3-5 0 DEG. 288 DEG. 144 DEG. 72 DEG. 216 DEG.
3-6 0 DEG. 288 DEG. 216 DEG. 72 DEG. 144 DEG.
PAGE # 4
4-1 0 DEG. 72 DEG. 144 DEG. 288 DEG. 216 DEG.
4-2 0 DEG. 72 DEG. 216 DEG. 288 DEG. 144 DEG.
4-3 0 DEG. 216 DEG. 144 DEG. 288 DEG. 72 DEG.
4-4 0 DEG. 144 DEG. 216 DEG. 288 DEG. 72 DEG.
4-5 0 DEG. 144 DEG. 72 DEG. 288 DEG. 216 DEG.
4-6 0 DEG. 144 DEG. 72 DEG. 288 DEG. 216 DEG.

[marion5drsn]

The conventional V-10 engine uses the nonsymmetrical crankshaft with 5 crank positions (72 degrees). The 72-degree arrangement of crank throws balances the primary and the secondary forces in each bank and therefore in the engine. The nonsymmetrical shaft eliminates the Secondary Moment. The Primary Moment which nonsymmetrical shaft would ordinarily produce is eliminated by eliminating the primary forces of each pair of V cylinders by means of ten counterweights opposite the cranks.

It should be noted that the 72-degree V-10 crank arrangement results in the simultaneous arrival of two pistons at top center in opposite banks, thus the form is adapted to use in four stroke engines to prevent Secondary Shake. Using the Firing Order of # 1-10-9-4-3-6-5-8-7-2. But with the 72-degree spacing of a 72-degree block and 72-degree 5-plane crank the following happens.
# 1 cylinder “boxes” with # 6.
# 3 cylinder “boxes” with # 2
# 5 cylinder “boxes” with # 10
# 7 cylinder “boxes” with # 4
#9 cylinder “boxes” with # 8
One cannot help but notice the fact that the cylinders fire left then right in successive order, which would seem to make the engine fire in a very smooth fashion. This is opposed to a belief that a V-10 is not a very smooth running engine. Also the fact that the engine “boxes” pistons in a systematic way also, as is called out by Taylor to assure there is no Secondary Shake. One cannot use the rule that the end crankshaft throw is not exactly 180-degrees antisymmetrical as the pistons do “box” as necessary to achieve the boxing maneuver.
Mp = the weight of the upper conrod, piston, piston pin and any other parts included in the as assembled unit. This is the part that creates the Secondary Shake.
Mr = rotating mass. The crank throw itself + the lower part of the conrod with inserts installed, bolts, nuts and any other pieces when installed in the engine. This is the part that creates the Primary Shake. This is true even if the block is not 72 or144 degrees.
M1 = First-Order Moment caused by inertia forces caused by the non-symmetrical shaft. Easily prevented by using proper 10 counterweights. This is true even if the block is not 72 or144 degrees.
M11 = Second Order Moment caused by inertia forces caused by upper conrod & piston. Can easily be prevented (V-10s) by using proper angle of block and spacing of crankshaft throws at 72 degrees crank angle and 72 or144-degrees block angle. Upper conrod and piston must all weight the same.

The word invention is interpreted to mean: a device, contrivance, or process originated after study and experiment. To produce (as something useful) for the FIRST TIME thru the use of the imagination or of ingenious thinking and experiment <~ new machine>

January 26, 2001 M.L. Anderson

FIRING ORDERS FOR V-10 144 BLOCK X 72 DEGREE CRANKSHAFT
V-10 FIRING ORDER CHART
#1-8-5-2-9-6-3-10-7-4 PAGE # 1 1-1
#1-6-7-2-9-8-3-10-5-4 1-2
#1-8-3-2-9-4-5-10-7-6 1-3
#1-4-7-2-9-8-5-10-3-6 1-4
#1-6-3-2-9-4-7-10-5-8 1-5
#1-4-5-2-9-6-7-10-3-8 1-6
#1-8-9-2-5-10-3-6-7-4 PAGE #2 2-1 BEST
#1-10-7-2-5-8-3-6-9-4 2-2
#1-10-3-2-5-4-7-6-9-8 2-3
#1-4-9-2-5-10-7-6-3-8 2-4
#1-8-3-2-5-4-9-6-7-10 2-5
#1-4-7-2-5-8-9-6-3-10 2-6 BEST
#1-8-5-2-3-6-9-4-7-10 PAGE #3 3-1 BEST
#1-6-7-2-3-8-9-4-5-10 3-2
#1-10-7-2-3-8-5-4-9-6 3-3
#1-8-9-2-3-10-5-4-7-6 3-4
#1-10-5-2-3-6-7-4-9-8 3-5
#1-6-9-2-3-10-7-4-5-8 3-6
#1-10-5-2-7-6-3-8-9-4 PAGE #4 4-1
#1-6-9-2-7-10-3-8-5-4 4-2
#1-4-5-2-7-6-9-8-3-10 4-3
#1-6-3-2-7-4-9-8-5-10 4-4
#1-10-3-2-7-4-5-8-9-6 4-5
#1-4-9-2-7-10-5-8-3-6 4-6

[AdamLarnachJr]

Interesting post, I was wondering, what sounds does each firing order give off? The reason I ask is because after hearing the Ford & Dodge Truck V10's, Dodge Viper V10, Judd V10, and the F1 V10, they all have distinctivly different sounds. The Ford and Dodge V10's sound a bit like a V8 with two more cylinders and sound horrid at low RPM's, the Judd sounds like something you plug into the wall outlet, very very sweet sound, and the F1 V10 is just like a wild animal.

Any thoughts?

[Halfwitt]

The Ford V10 will rev to not many thousand rpm and is a 90 degree V10 I think with a strange crank using offset pins.

The Judd V10 is a low-ish-revving 72 degree engine, which is based on an F1 unit, but has the revs lowered for reliability, lower friction and fuel economy for sportscar racing, its max rpm is about 11,000. It does sound very nice.

The F1 engine is pretty much the same thing, but revs to 17,000 / 18,000 / Ali_G dream revs, so will sound a little 'tortured'

[Rat_Fink]

Something tells me that firing order has got buggar all to do with the sound difference between an American pushrod V10 lump and an F1 engine.

Wake up man (Mr AdamLarnachJr XVIII) !!

Look at the engine speeds!

[AdamLarnachJr]

Rat Fink, ever heard a destroked Viper revving to 9000rpm? That's only 2000rpm less than a Judd engine and it sounds nowhere near as sweet as the Judd. It sounds like a rat screech! It has a completly different firing order than any Judd or F1 engine, it fires two cylinders at the same time instead of one at a time like most V10's do.

That is the reason for the different sound, the Viper V10 is more like a tractor engine than a sports car engine in terms of sound.

Another reason I was contemplating the sounds, as I am well aware of the different RPM's, is that when you increase the frequency of a Judd sound recording it doesn't sound anything like an F1 engine, that is the only reason why I thought of a different firing order. And please do not tell me that all those firing order's posted will have the same sound because they are all V10's.

Look at the American V8's, theres about a million different firing orders between them, some sound the same, others, like the 426 Hemi, 351W and 351C sound nothing like a SBC even though they rev the same RPM and are 90º V8's.

[Halfwitt]

Originally posted by Rat_Fink
Something tells me that firing order has got buggar all to do with the sound difference between an American pushrod V10 lump and an F1 engine.

Wake up man (Mr AdamLarnachJr XVIII) !!

Look at the engine speeds!

Ever heard the 'big-bang' V4 Honda 500cc two-stroke GP bikes on the track with the 'screamer' (even firing order) versions. They rev to the same speed, and they sound completely different. it isn't all speed, and it isn't all firing order. It is definitely too complicated for me.

[AdamLarnachJr]

Yeap, it also exlains the reason why a pump gas Arao "headed" small block chevy V8 sounds like a alky burning dragster Hemi.

[marion5drsn]

There seems to be several misconceptions going about in relation to the sound and fury of the Dodge/Viper/Chrysler V-10.
Firstly, The 18 degrees that the V-10 fires will very definitely cause a rough sounding engine, as the sine wave is not even. After I drew a linear graph one could see what the different in the sine wave have been, had I of gone that far in the chart. One must keep in mind that lines overlap on one end and drop out on the other. If one had a straight exhaust on each side and stood between them I would imagine one would hear a great deal of difference. The reason one might not hear this in the F-1 cars is the rpm difference. If the Viper were running at low rpm it would be even more exaggerated.
Dodge V-10s do not have offset conrod pins, which is why they fire at offset crankshaft angles. They fire at O deg. then 54 deg, and then 90 deg. etc, etc. instead of O deg. 72 deg. 144 deg etc. etc. This type of firing might well be called ragtime because of its ragged firing sound. Also the magnitude of the sound will make a lot of difference.
Dodges have 72 degree 5 plane cranks and 90-degree blocks the reason for the 18-degree difference in actual firing phasing. Yours M.L. Anderson