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Senna would have won the WDC in 1994.


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#1 MONTOYASPEED

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 00:47

From Autosport.com:

Dear Nigel,
I have always wondered of a great battle that it could have been between Ayrto Senna and Michael Schumacher, if Senna had survived that tragic accident at Imola in 1994. What do you think would have been the outcome?
Alex King, Los Angeles, California

Dear Alex,
I once asked Bernie Ecclestone the same question, and he just rolled his
eyes. "It would have been magic, wouldn't it?"

So, too, it would. First of all, let me say that, had it not been the tragedy at Imola, I have no doubts that Senna would have won his fourth World Championship in 1994. In its early guise, the Williams-Renault FW16 was a very difficult car, yet, at each of the three races in which he drove it, Ayrton started from the pole. Later, the car was honed into something extremely competitive, and Senna would undoubtedly have won many, many, races with it.

Consider next the Williams-Renaults which came later. By common consent, they were superior to the opposition: Damon Hill should have won the championship in 1995, did win it in '96, and then Jacques Villeneuve took the title in '97. Who knows what these cars would have achieved, with Senna at the wheel? One can imagine his winning the championship every year.

At the same time, though, it is a fact of life that every racing driver, even the greatest of them, reaches a peak, and then begins - perhaps, to the outside world, impercepibly for quite a while - progressively to lose his edge, while the next great driver, still young, still improving, moves up on him, until eventually there is a changing of the guard.

Senna was 34 at the time of his death, and still very much at the height of his powers. We can say - quite reasonably, I think - that he could have been World Champion in 1994/95/96/97, which would have given him a total of seven titles. At the end of that spell, though, he would have been approaching his 38th birthday.

One or two points to consider, though. First, Senna's great friend Jo Ramirez has always suspected that, after winning five titles, Ayrton would have retired, not least because he wanted to equal, but not beat, the record of Juan Manuel Fangio, whom he held in reverence.

Second, I think that Martin Brundle is right when he says that, in the case of these two, there never would have been a 'changing of the guard'. "We might not have noticed when Ayrton was not quite the driver he had been," Brundle says, "but he would have known it immediately, and as soon as he did, he would have stopped - instantly. He had too much pride to do anthing else."

Last, one has to wonder how a real head-to-head between Senna and Schumacher might have resolved itself. They were not friends, by any means, and I don't find it too difficult to envisage a feud developing between them, such as that between Ayrton and Alain Prost. Many a time, a potential accident between Senna and Prost was avoided only because Alain backed down, but Schumacher has frequently exhibited the sort of ruhtlessness on the track for which Senna, too, was known.



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#2 Raelene

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 01:04

who cares what Nigel THINKS - Senna didn't win the championship - he died.... would have's could have's should have's don't come into play.

#3 The RedBaron

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 01:04

If Imola 1994 wasn't fatal, Schumacher would have been leading 30-0 pts at that point, FIA would not have tweaked the regulations like they did after Senna's death....a 30 point head start is not easy to catch-up IMO!!
Plus FIA would have played less politics than they did if Senna had survived. After Imola the FIA tried to make the rest of the season interesting by creating a last race showdown by effectively excluding MS from 4 races. IMO Schumacher would still have won even if it were marginal.

1995 a different story...pretty sure Senna would have provided stiffer opposition than Hill, considering the Williams had the better chassis with same engine.

1996 might have seen Senna switch over to Ferrari to end his career, he always stated that as his preference.

#4 JForce

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 01:11

Originally posted by Raelene
who cares what Nigel THINKS - Senna didn't win the championship - he died.... would have's could have's should have's don't come into play.


:up: :up: :up:
Senna=Overrated :|

#5 Foxbat

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 01:39

I once asked Bernie Ecclestone the same question, and he just rolled his
eyes. "It would have been magic, wouldn't it?"


Bernie visits this forum?

#6 Foxbat

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 01:44

"he could have been World Champion in 1994/95/96/97, which would have given him a total of seven titles." And then he could have switched to McLaren to rack up another 2 titles, but what he really wanted was to finish his carreer with Ferrari. And going there in 2000 would have nicely put him in line for his 10 and eleventh (and who knows, maybe even his twelfth WDC). I doubt he would have gone beyond that however, he was a very spiritual man and 13 WDC would have just seemed wrong to him.

There is really no point to this, is there?

#7 MinardiRules

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 01:50

Like many, I was looking forward to the Senna/Schumacher showdown in '94 -
but it is impossible to say who would have won.

But MS did have the better start and people were saying at the time that AS might just be beyond his best... Of course, these days you get lynched for suggesting this...

#8 Paste

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 01:57

Originally posted by Raelene
who cares what Nigel THINKS - Senna didn't win the championship - he died.... would have's could have's should have's don't come into play.



Good call. Schumacher was beating Senna, Senna died, Schumacher won the title. Pretty cut-and-dried if you ask me.


Hey, I've got an idea, let's start an alternate championship where we award the title to someone who we all think would've won. Actually, let's start awarding the WDC this way. I think Nelson Piquet should win the 2002 WDC.

#9 Williams

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 02:04

Nigel makes a good point. The Williams cars of 94-97 were very fast and considering how closely fought the Schumacher/Hill battles and Schumacher/Villeneuve battles were, Senna probably would have won at least 94 and 95. The 30-point spread at the start of 1994 would have evaporated very quickly as Williams sorted the car out and Senna gained confidence in it. I'm pretty sure that Schumacher would have given a good account of himself, but he probably wouldn't have won a title until 1996 at the earliest, assuming the relative competitiveness of the top teams remained constant. IMO.

#10 Foxbat

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 02:15

Williams> The Schumi/Hill battle in 94 was perhaps close, but Schumachjer starts of with a 30 point headstart. And he probably wouldn't lose the 20+ points due to suspensions, after all that's when the championship became close. It is quite easy to say that Hill lost by a point and Senna is easily a point better than Hill, but the reality is somewhat more complicated.
As for 95, this is again not as cut and dried a Senna win. Schumacher walked all over Hill, and lost some 20+ points to Hill "walking over" him. Against Senna this would not have been a walkover, but there seems to be a fair enough margin for succes.

1996 and beyond is of course totaly unpredictable. Does Senna go to Ferrari? Does Schumacher go to Ferrari if Senna is still there to challenge him? Will Senna throw in the towel? We simply can't know.

#11 SeanValen

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 02:32

This is always one of the biggest what ifs, ashame it never got played out, Senna and Schumacher's on track clashes would have been monumental, envisioning both racing in the wet would have been a joy. :smoking:

But it remains a what if. :confused:

#12 AdrianM

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 05:30

We will never know :( :

#13 Simioni

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 05:53

94 would've been tight. Car wise, williams would probably turn the table more quickly had Senna survived because as it was they took too long to recover, partly because of the impact of their no1's death, partly because the team was too hesitant on following Hill's orientations to the car's development. Then again it's possible that benetton suffered a bit more with the midseason rule changes. Williams would probably regain the upper hand from Monaco onwards, but it wouldn't be comfortable except for the quickest circuits.

Then it would be down to how far back on points Senna would be by the time they got to Barcelona. If we go from the standpoint that Senna wouldn't have crashed, there would probably be 20-30 points to go depending on the results of Imola where Senna had a good chance of winning and monaco where benetton would certainly have the better car. If we assume that Senna was to have his accident and survive, then there would be a 30-point deficit by Monaco and a bone-crushing pressure in his shoulders. How would he react?

Rising to the challenge was never an issue for Senna. These days it seems like many people have lost sight of how Senna's career really developed. It was in many ways a constant uphill struggle, from showing his worth with a midfield car, to being an outside WDC contender with lotus, to joining Prost at mclaren and overcoming him, to holding off the challenge from williams and ferrari to finally enduring a struggle of 2 seasons against the most dominant F1 cars ever. That means that for all his career AS was either fighting better cars or taking on titanic duels against Prost. By the time Senna finally got his turn at williams, though he realized the team would no longer be in position to cakewalk the championship like in previous seasons, there still was a distinguished feeling of happy-hour in the air. During the 93-94 off-season, Senna seemed happier and more relaxed than ever, and his focus seemed to subtly shift towards his business and personal life. F1 had and would always be the priority, but it no longer had exclusive rights to his mind. 94 was going to be the year of driving for the thrill of competition, with a car that was capable of winning. No more politics, or off-track rivalries.

During preseason testing however things began to shape up in a somewhat more complicated way. Benetton and Schumacher had been rock-solid in performance and reliability, while williams were struggling to sort out their passive suspension problems and aerodynamical issues that came with it. Senna had been quickest throughout the last week of testing at Imola before Brazil, but on the final day Schumacher snatched the record time of the winter. The message was sent; Senna remained with his usual confidence but the amount of work to be done was clear. "Whenever I feel I've put myself in a position to enjoy a relatively easy ride something or someone pops up and turns it into a struggle", he vented.

Senna got to Brazil knowing that unlike most people's expectations he wouldn't be allowed to give up an inch. There couldn't be a worst track for the FW16's debut as interlagos. The car was unstable over the bumps and twichy in the infield, with snap-oversteer exiting slow corners. Senna worked his way up to top every session and promptly opened a 4s lead when MS got held up by Alesi in the first two laps. Once free, MS gradually caught up. The excessive tire wear caused by the car's unbalance left Senna unable to sustain the same pace, but renault power gave him breathing space on the straights with meant Schumacher had little chance of passing on the track. As they came in together for their first pitstop though, the deed was done. Benetton clocked 6.4s in their first official refuelling service, an unlikely time for a two-stopper, which put MS ahead (later in the season benetton were found to have removed a fuel filter from their rig which sped up the flow and gave them quicker pitstops). The gap went up to 9s by the time of the 2nd stops, when Senna began to chase. In 5 laps the gap was cut down to 5s, mostly due to daredevil driving through traffic, until Senna got caught out exiting the last corner. In the effort to caught the slide he failed to reach the clutch in time and so stalled the engine, losing a certain 2nd place in the process.

"They ****ed up the car right on my turn" Senna said privately after williams went to jerez in between brazil and japan in an attempt to sort the cars' problems. Aida's bumps and tight corners were promising to be another nightmare for williams, but Senna worked hard at sorting the FW16 for the track during practice, managing to snatch friday's pole time while benetton played catch up with their setup work. By saturday Schumacher had found his feet and ended up quickest as expected, but the track was slower than what had been the day before. Senna therefore kept the pole and more importantly, with the car more balanced than it had been in brazil. None of that mattered by sunday though as MS jumped ahead at the start while Hakkinen tipped Senna off, in what he described as "one of the most frustrating feelings I've had in my career". MS walked the race and amounted a 20 point lead in the championship.

A lot of things have been said about Senna's mood before Imola. It's undeniable that he seemed more low-key than usual, as close friends confirmed. It's possible that Senna was just tired due to the combination of the so far tough F1 season and an increasingly extensive business agenda. But his insistence with the press pleeding them to keep his rivalry with Schumacher solely as an on-track affair might indicate that he'd had enough of the issues of F1 besides the competition itself. The accidents during the race weekend seemed to be the last straw as it clearly got him distraught.

The whole what-if discussion regarding Senna's death revolves around the question of what would be of the man himself after the imola weekend. Was he indeed getting sick of F1, or was he just going through a bad period that would be quickly forgotten as soon as he crossed the finish line in 1st again? What was there to be seen of him on sunday indicates that he probably would have enough steam to fight it off with MS for the rest of the season. What would happen then is impossible to guess. The rivalry with Schumacher could escalate and depending on the end result Senna could regain a new motivation, which would lead to a few more years of intense battles. Then again he might've put on one last effort to win 94 and maybe 95 in convincingly enough manner, and call it quits to dedicate to his life outside F1 that had been getting so much of his attention lately.

One big no-no when drawing up these parallel scenarios is to assume that everything would've turned out the way it did had Senna not died, ie you can't assume that the major 95 rule changes would've come into play, or that benetton would've gotten renault engines, or that the status quo among teams would be what it was in those new parameters. It's all a big question mark really. The only thing certain is that Senna vs Schumacher would've given us a hell of a lot more than what we got with his demise.

#14 Nikolas Garth

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 07:29

Originally posted by Simioni
One big no-no when drawing up these parallel scenarios is to assume that everything would've turned out the way it did had Senna not died, ie you can't assume that the major 95 rule changes would've come into play, or that benetton would've gotten renault engines, or that the status quo among teams would be what it was in those new parameters. It's all a big question mark really. The only thing certain is that Senna vs Schumacher would've given us a hell of a lot more than what we got with his demise.

Well said. :up:

#15 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 08:50

Good post Simioni!

I agree 100% that most (all) of the rule changes from Imola 1994 to the beginning of the 1995 season were triggered by that tragic series of events. This means that the "real" 1995 might not have resembled the "fictional" 1995, where Senna had been at Williams.

I believe that Senna would have had very big difficulties winning the 1994 WDC. Senna had never been reliable, so he would undoubtedly have had a couple of DNFs, and Schumacher would most likely never have gotten his two race ban mid-season. He would possibly have been excluded from Silverstone and Spa, but even that is uncertain if you ask me. The way I remember the F1 community's reaction in early 1994 (pre-Imola), was almost a sense of relief, Senna was expected to walk the 1994 season. He was the best driver in the best car. Still, when Schumacher pulled out a 20 second gap in supreme fashion (albeit with the help of Häkkinen at Aida), it had the same effect on the F1 community as it would have if Montoya had 20-0 on Schumacher after Sepang. It was, in a sense, David vs. Goliath.

Even if Senna had survived Imola, the deficit would now have been 30-0 in Schumacher's favour. If we assume that Senna won in Monaco, the deficit would be 36-10 in Schumacher's favour (unless Senna punted Schumacher off the track). In the following two races, Schumacher would have scored atleast 10 points, from a second and a third place, which at best gives Senna a 16 point deficit after six rounds. This is ofcourse, seen from the absolute ideal situation for Senna. Stripped of his power advantage at Monaco, his car would be less competitive than Schumacher's, and Schumacher has proven even before 1994 that he is very good around Monaco. It's not entirely impossible that Schumacher would have won the race with Senna finishing second. That would give Schumacher a lead of 40 points to six. If we then assume that Senna suffers mechanical failure in one of the next two races (not entirely unlikely), then he wouldhave a gap of 38-42 points up to Schumacher with nearly half of the season gone.

When all of this adds up I would have put my money on Schumacher winning in 1994, but I think Senna would have taken revenge in 1995, if the car situation between Williams and Benetton had been similar to the "real" situation.

Still, it would have been magic, wouldn't it?

#16 Brian O Flaherty

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 08:56

Originally posted by Raelene
who cares what Nigel THINKS - Senna didn't win the championship - he died.... would have's could have's should have's don't come into play.


"Would have's, could have's and should have's" do come into play when the question is "What do you think would have been the outcome?".

#17 Brian O Flaherty

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 08:58

Originally posted by Foxbat


Bernie visits this forum?


That was Nigel Roebuck asking Bernie, not a poster on here :rotfl:

#18 Ghostrider

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 09:00

Senna is history and there is a nostalgia forum for these kinds of discussion. Or the Atlas court. I am very tired of this discussion myself. Schumacher himself has said that Senna would probably have won the championship that year, can't we just leave it at that?

#19 HSJ

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 10:45

Originally posted by Raelene
who cares what Nigel THINKS - Senna didn't win the championship - he died.... would have's could have's should have's don't come into play.



They do when MS fans try to claim superiority for their hero based on numbers.

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#20 AlesiGOD

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 11:25

Senna would have won by a big margin...

#21 Megatron

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 11:26

What ifs are terrible in racing. There are thousands of them. I prefer to concentrate on what was and not think too much of what might have been. If we do, it gets confusing and unfair to both those who have gone on and those who are still alive. The past is the past. Perhaps in some alternate universe, in another space and another time, perhaps Senna spun harmlessly off in Imola, came back, and battled with Schumacher. But not this one.

Perhaps in another universe, Jim Clark raced until 1973. Dan Gurney didn't start up the Eagle and was a two time World Champion for Brabham. Gilles Villeneuve went to Williams in 1981. The Lotus 88 was allowed to race and turned the sport upsidedown.

But this is not what happened. We should look to the great drives Senna had, without thinking about what might have been.

#22 magic

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 11:28

Schumacher after winning '94 wdc.

"... if ayrton had been alive and driving the williams,
ayrton would have been driving circles round me..."



#23 Melbourne Park

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 11:38

Originally posted by Williams
Nigel makes a good point. The Williams cars of 94-97 were very fast and considering how closely fought the Schumacher/Hill battles and Schumacher/Villeneuve battles were, Senna probably would have won at least 94 and 95. The 30-point spread at the start of 1994 would have evaporated very quickly as Williams sorted the car out and Senna gained confidence in it. I'm pretty sure that Schumacher would have given a good account of himself, but he probably wouldn't have won a title until 1996 at the earliest, assuming the relative competitiveness of the top teams remained constant. IMO.


If one looks at Williams, there's no doubt Frank likes to have top drivers. The real question should be, what would have MS done if Senna had won in 1994? In most peoples opinions, MS improved his driving after 1994. MS may have ended up in a Williams: Senna versus MS in the same team, is the sort of thing Frank Williams likes. If that had of been the case, one could argue that MS might have more titles to his name by now ... besides the McLaren option ...

#24 ffiloseta

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 11:52

It always makes me sad to remember... At the time, I was very much enjoying Senna losing to Schumacher, until a point came when it was apparent he and Williams were beginning to look a little desperate (come on: a rookie, on a Benetton FORD ? give us a break...), so much that at the moment of the accident, before we knew the outcome, we commented: "There ! too much pressure from Schumacher. Senna sucks and Frank even more !!!"

We always thought that the accident was caused primarily by trying too hard, too desperately, to hold MS out. No, Senna could have never won that WDC...

This is a little lame, of course, being that he indeed died and us not being wizards or something like that.

What would have been the years after 1994 if he hadn't died ? and cars had not been changed so radically ? Where would we be now ?

#25 Brian O Flaherty

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 12:15

Originally posted by Vrba
That guy Roebuck should be forbidden and his articles never published.
Senna as 7 times WDC? Yeah, right. We are talking the man who couldn't win 1989 title in best car and who needed to deliberately crash into his oponent to win 1990 title.
In fact it's silly to mention Senna nowadays at all.

Hrvoje


I notice you have MS as your favourite driver. Remind me of his on-track manners :rolleyes:

#26 Vrba

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 12:17

Originally posted by Paste



Good call. Schumacher was beating Senna, Senna died, Schumacher won the title. Pretty cut-and-dried if you ask me.


Hey, I've got an idea, let's start an alternate championship where we award the title to someone who we all think would've won. Actually, let's start awarding the WDC this way. I think Nelson Piquet should win the 2002 WDC.


I agree!
All this is silly and Roebuck is an idiot.

Hrvoje

#27 Brian O Flaherty

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 12:19

I think all the critics in this post are forgetting that it is a "what if" post and nothing more. Take it for what it is.

#28 Foxbat

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 12:20

Originally posted by Brian O Flaherty


That was Nigel Roebuck asking Bernie, not a poster on here :rotfl:


And when asked he makes a comment about "magic" and rolls his eyes....

#29 Brian O Flaherty

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 12:23

:) I've two lists for posters in this forum :)

I'll put you in my clever list Foxbat :)

#30 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 14:03

Originally posted by Megatron
What ifs are terrible in racing. There are thousands of them. I prefer to concentrate on what was and not think too much of what might have been. If we do, it gets confusing and unfair to both those who have gone on and those who are still alive. The past is the past. Perhaps in some alternate universe, in another space and another time, perhaps Senna spun harmlessly off in Imola, came back, and battled with Schumacher. But not this one.

Perhaps in another universe, Jim Clark raced until 1973. Dan Gurney didn't start up the Eagle and was a two time World Champion for Brabham. Gilles Villeneuve went to Williams in 1981. The Lotus 88 was allowed to race and turned the sport upsidedown.

But this is not what happened. We should look to the great drives Senna had, without thinking about what might have been.



Very good post Megatron :up:

It really makes no sense saying that either driver easily would have won the WDC, there's just no way we can know...

And about Senna's seven WDCs... I don't know ofcourse it's possible, but an elderly Senna beating a young and hungry Michael Schumacher in four straight seasons after only having won three WDCs in ten seasons? I don't know...

I think Paul Fearnley (editor of Motorsport magazine) said it best when he was asked why Prost doesn't have as many fans as Senna and Villeneuve, drivers whose career's were ended prematurely.

What might have been will always be better than what was

#31 magic

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 16:42

If one looks at Williams, there's no doubt Frank likes to have top drivers. The real question should be, what would have MS done if Senna had won in 1994? In most peoples opinions, MS improved his driving after 1994. MS may have ended up in a Williams: Senna versus MS in the same team, is the sort of thing Frank Williams likes. If that had of been the case, one could argue that MS might have more titles to his name by now ... besides the McLaren option ...



nige lost to senna in '91 but was given the chance to take revenge by frank in '92, and boy did nige strike.

when prost came, nige fled to cart.
prost stopped senna coming in '93.
when senna came the year later, prost retired.

senna feared no one and joined prost before in '88.

ms never had a strong teammate and i suspect he cannot handle it.
nor would ms have liked the idea leaving brawn and byrne behind.
ms in the cold and hostile williams camp facing senna in equal cars was something the likeble german would have avoided, senna never.

#32 magic

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 17:08

MS may have ended up in a Williams:



frank still wants him and still he doesn't come.
and never will.

is he scared of facing ralf or juan in equal cars?



btw frank loves drivers who beat his team hard.
frank always loves his worst nightmare and enemy.

piquet was beating jones in superior williamses '80/'81. drove for williams '86/'87.
prost was beating nige and piquet in superior williamses '86/'87. drove for williams '93.
senna was beating nige and piquet and prost in superior williamses. drove for williams '94.

#33 chooch

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 17:12

MS would have won in 94 but the Benneton would have been DQ like Tyrell 84. It was illegal but they let MS win to create a new star anyway. Without the fuel rig Senna wins Brazil and is tied going into Imola...a lot of ifs I know but the bottom line is that as SFW said MS is very good but Senna was extraordinary. :wave:

#34 John B

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 17:15

True, the what-ifs can go on forever. For example, how does MS change his career team moves if he doesn't have the 94 and 95 titles? My guess is he would not be willing to risk any years on developing at Ferrari. He would likely have gone for the very top ride from 96 on, and who knows how it would have affected his stats?

I've also thought about this in relation to JV - without establishing the numbers he did in 1996-97 at Williams, would he be in a BAR in 1999-2002?

The early deficit looked to be exactly what F1 needed, because that off-season Senna may have been the most obvious WDC pick of all time. The crash was the final step in the transformation of F1 from the dominance of AP and AS along with Piquet and Mansell to a group of unproven stars without a title on the grid at some 1994 events post Imola.

#35 The RedBaron

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 17:25

Originally posted by magic



nige lost to senna in '91 but was given the chance to take revenge by frank in '92, and boy did nige strike.

when prost came, nige fled to cart.
prost stopped senna coming in '93.
when senna came the year later, prost retired.

senna feared no one and joined prost before in '88.

ms never had a strong teammate and i suspect he cannot handle it.
nor would ms have liked the idea leaving brawn and byrne behind.
ms in the cold and hostile williams camp facing senna in equal cars was something the likeble german would have avoided, senna never.


More "magic" dreams and assumptions! :rolleyes:
You must love this thread....this is right up your street, are you now going to spew up facts, figures and quotes for the next 2 or 3 pages??

#36 pRy

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 18:04

Well there was always the possibility that had he survived, he would have retired anyway. He discussed it with Sid Watkins.

#37 Waylander

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 18:24

Originally posted by Raelene
who cares what Nigel THINKS - Senna didn't win the championship - he died.... would have's could have's should have's don't come into play.


Agreed :up:
Besides if he hadn't gone and died than he could have been sidelined for most of the season or even reduced to a vegetative state and forced to spend the rest of his days sucking on a straw :drunk:

#38 berge

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 20:13

Originally posted by Brian O Flaherty
:) I've two lists for posters in this forum :)

I'll put you in my clever list Foxbat :)


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#39 berge

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 20:15

Has anybody ever considered the possibility that IF Senna hadn't died at Imola, eventually, he and Schumacher would have ended up as teammates...............at Williams.

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#40 Todd

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 20:24

Originally posted by magic
frank still wants him and still he doesn't come.
and never will.

is he scared of facing ralf or juan in equal cars?


Bernie didn't want Senna in a superior Williams, and he certainly wouldn't have wanted MS in a Williams after Senna was gone. MS isn't going to Williams because he is happy at Ferrari. How many times does a driver leave a great situation like that voluntarily? The only examples I can think of that come close were Prost in '89 and Schumacher in '95. Prost left because he was deeply unhappy. Michael left because his management wanted a team that could pay him what he was worth. Michael is happy and Ferrari has money. Why jump ship? There is also the matter of loyalty. The team has been good to him, and he is essential for their continued success.

Senna left McLaren because they were no longer superior enough for him to win titles. It had nothing to do with missing having Prost as a teammate. In short, I don't think there is any chance that Michael isn't headed to Ferrari because he is scared of the competition there.

#41 Foxbat

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 21:31

Originally posted by magic



nige lost to senna in '91 but was given the chance to take revenge by frank in '92, and boy did nige strike.

when prost came, nige fled to cart.
prost stopped senna coming in '93.
when senna came the year later, prost retired.

senna feared no one and joined prost before in '88.

ms never had a strong teammate and i suspect he cannot handle it.
nor would ms have liked the idea leaving brawn and byrne behind.
ms in the cold and hostile williams camp facing senna in equal cars was something the likeble german would have avoided, senna never.


That's a crock and you know it. All the people who "fled" Williams were at the end of their career. Who knows what would have happened four years earlier? Would Prost have fled McLaren in 1988 at the announcement of Senna joining him :rolleyes:
And we certainly don't know how Senna would have responded, if he knew that he was no longer at the top of his powers was to be joined by the unlikeable german.

As for MS being afraid to leave B&B&B behind, well that's just what he did, didn't he?

#42 Foxbat

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 21:36

Originally posted by chooch
MS would have won in 94 but the Benneton would have been DQ like Tyrell 84. It was illegal but they let MS win to create a new star anyway. Without the fuel rig Senna wins Brazil and is tied going into Imola...a lot of ifs I know but the bottom line is that as SFW said MS is very good but Senna was extraordinary. :wave:


Who hold your horses there buddie, you are not just creating what ifs for the things that did not happen you are also including races that did happen :eek:
If Senna had won the first 3 races, and MS DNQ'ed in them then Senna would probably have won the WDC. Especially if he won all the other races and MS was arrested for drug trafficing after the Brazil race :rolleyes:

#43 Foxbat

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 21:39

Originally posted by Brian O Flaherty
:) I've two lists for posters in this forum :)

I'll put you in my clever list Foxbat :)


Thanks :blush:

#44 mp4

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 21:53

It's a lovely thought to ponder. Seeing Ayrton perish put me off F1 for a spell. Even if the tragic events of May 1st had not have happened, the simple truth is that there is always someone younger and more hungry chomping at the bit.
Ayrton was an amazingly gifted, driven and hard working soul. Maybe others were jealous of his zeal? Who really knows?
It was a very sad day, when he left and I'd rather prefer to remeber his accomplishments instead of wondering, "What if?".
That said, there would have been a time when he hung up his coveralls and settled into another life. It really doesn't matter how many races or titles he'd have amassed. Who really cares? Just watching him do his thing should be enough for any F1 fan. So there.
Be good, people! :)

#45 magic

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 22:46

Foxbat
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by magic



nige lost to senna in '91 but was given the chance to take revenge by frank in '92, and boy did nige strike.

when prost came, nige fled to cart.
prost stopped senna coming in '93.
when senna came the year later, prost retired.

senna feared no one and joined prost before in '88.

ms never had a strong teammate and i suspect he cannot handle it.
nor would ms have liked the idea leaving brawn and byrne behind.
ms in the cold and hostile williams camp facing senna in equal cars was something the likeble german would have avoided, senna never.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's a crock and you know it. All the people who "fled" Williams were at the end of their career.




i fail to see the wisdom in your words, foxbat, maybe i'm not sharp as brain o' to notice.

nige was peaking in '92 and a year later he was at the end of his career? too clever for me to grasp.
funny that he won the cart series a first go at the end of his career and outqualified ms and hill when he rejoined f1 in '94.


Who knows what would have happened four years earlier? Would Prost have fled McLaren in 1988 at the announcement of Senna joining him



duh? would have what?
senna did join prost in '88 and made prost suffer and regret.
like nige did join prost in '90 and prost made nige suffer and regret.
facts.

those 2 nightmare experiences made nige run from prost in '92 and prost run from senna in '93.
frank not willing to help 'm out.
same when piquet was kicked around by nige, no mercy for him.


And we certainly don't know how Senna would have responded, if he knowing that he was no longer at the top of his powers was to be joined by the unlikeable german.



...if he knowing that...
that puts you in my bs-list.
3 poles in a rotten handling fw16 in 3 races.
closing in on ms in race 1. leading ms in race 3.
senna would have loved to see the rival struggle in the same car.

As for MS being afraid to leave B&B&B behind, well that's just what he did, didn't he?



no.
he did not.
he signed knowing b&b would follow.
the only year without b&b helping was his least effective season, even hill could beat him to a wdc.
in fact team schumacher was even expanded.
b&b + a luca, a todt, 50 years racing experience, marlboro-money, bernie-guidance, a private testtrack and a helping fia.

#46 Foxbat

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 23:13

Originally posted by magic

...if he knowing that...
that puts you in my bs-list.
3 poles in a rotten handling fw16 in 3 races.
closing in on ms in race 1. leading ms in race 3.
senna would have loved to see the rival struggle in the same car.


Sorry for the grammer error, I gone did correct it.
Anyway I wasn't exactly sugesting that Schumacher would join Wiliams mid-season :rolleyes:
What I was getting at was that Senna would perhaps not be so keen on staying at Williams if he knew that he was no longer at the top of his powers, and Schumacher was coming to join him.


no.
he did not.
he signed knowing b&b would follow.
the only year without b&b helping was his least effective season, even hill could beat him to a wdc.
in fact team schumacher was even expanded.
b&b + a luca, a todt, 50 years racing experience, marlboro-money, bernie-guidance, a private testtrack and a helping fia.


:finger: Isn't soooo easy to make **** like this up, you do know that Senna never won a WDC without Ron Dennis, McLAren, Marlboror, a couple dozen years racing experience and a millkions other guys I could name to make it seem as if he had only a minor role.

#47 Melbourne Park

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Posted 31 January 2002 - 23:17

magic's right about MS's team following him. And growing as well.

But magic doesn't point out how MS's behaviour is simply evidence of a generational change; AS was from an era where it worked for AS to swap from team to team. That was then. Now the cars are more highly developed, it pays to build and stick with a team. Its a different era. MS is the best from his, A Senna in many ways was the best from his. Neither were/are perfect.

#48 magic

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Posted 01 February 2002 - 00:24

sorry foxbat, i was not adressing your typos but this:

What I was getting at was that Senna would perhaps not be so keen on staying at Williams if he knew that he was no longer at the top of his powers, and Schumacher was coming to join him.



'...if he knew that he was no longer at the top of his powers...'
that's speculation coming from your world.
i wanted to show with the 3 poles etc. senna was not slipping like a end-of-career-np'91 or a end-of-career-nige'95.

if he had known or realised it, he would have stopped before the rot set in.
as simioni's excellent post already explained.
as it was, senna pretty much in control of his powers, he would have loved ms in the other fw16 at franks.

it was not to happen, i know, but senna would have loved it.
ms not.

#49 Foxbat

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Posted 01 February 2002 - 00:38

Originally posted by magic
sorry foxbat, i was not adressing your typos but this:



'...if he knew that he was no longer at the top of his powers...'
that's speculation coming from your world.
i wanted to show with the 3 poles etc. senna was not slipping like a end-of-career-np'91 or a end-of-career-nige'95.


Perhaps not yet, but in 95 or 96.

if he had known or realised it, he would have stopped before the rot set in.


Exactly my point.

it was not to happen, i know, but senna would have loved it.
ms not.


Isn't that a wee bit of speculation on your part?

#50 magic

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Posted 01 February 2002 - 00:49

Isn't that a wee bit of speculation on your part?



1985. brabham.
bernie wants senna, piquet says no.
did piquet fear senna? yes.
did senna fear piquet? no ( piquet was better than patrese, jj, jos, johnny, eddie and ruby ).

did senna fear de angelis? no ( elio was better than warwick ).
did senna fear prost? no ( prost was better than piquet ).
did senna fear berger? no ( berger was as good as nige at ferrari ).


senna would have prefered ms in a fw16 because the benneton was better.
logic.