69 replies to this topic

[Ali_G]

Can anyone get a picture of the Lotus 80 on the Net. It was an unusual car as it had no front or rear wing relying on Two Venturi tunnel which ran the lenght of the car to give it its downforce. But it was replaced with a different car after three GP as it did not work properly. Anybody got a URL for it ?

Ali_G

[Flicker]

Hmm...

An attempt to extend the parameters of the ground effect concept with side-pods and skirts extending inside the rear wheels. The machine even had skirts under the nose. They were soon worn away and the nose was exchanged for a standard version.
The problem was that the skirts were non-movable and when they became stuck life became very difficult for the driver. Andretti scored the car's best result with a third place in Spain.
Copyright R.Blinkhorn

[Ali_G]

Ya but the one that I have often heard about had no wings at all except for a tiny one at the rear to affect the balance of the car. I believe that it didn't work as the extended Venturi Tunnels didn't work well in conjunction with the rear suspension.

[desmo]

Here's a better image. I have no recollection of any Lotus like you describe, but there was a time in the ground-effects era when some cars were run sans front wings.

[John Cross]

Nice picture Desmo!

Here is the only Forix picture of the 80 (at Zolder):



Here is a picture from a test session (from Hodges A-Z):



And here is Piola's sketch (from Nye's 1966-91 History):



I also scanned this in at 720dpi mono (300 KB). This does not seem to display in Internet Explorer but is fine in Netscape (or right-click and save-as):

http://www.geocities...80-720dpix1.GIF

and 300dpi grey scale (1500 KB):

http://www.geocities...80-300dpix8.GIF

in case you want to have a closer look.[p][Edited by John Cross on 08-29-2000]

[Rob Ryder]

I think the car Ali is looking for was only used in one GP during 1979 - the French driven by Mario Andretti. No wings front or rear and relying on bodywork alone for aerodynamic downforce.

I have a picture on my HD and have a copy to Ali,. Anyone else interested in having a copy just drop me a line.

Rob

[Felix Muelas]

I think what Ali is "remembering" is the 80 in Jarama practice fashion, with no front wings and a very low rear one.
I made several pics of the car at the time, but there is a nice b&w one in page 176 of Theme Lotus from Nye.
fm

[Ali_G]

I believe that the car that i'm thinking of had only a tiny rear wing and ran in two GP. If you read the writing under the picture above you can see that it says the same thing. One a lighter scale keep those votes coming in.

[Ali_G]

Rob: Thanks for the pic. IT looks like an aweful car though.

[Ray Bell]

It looks to me like the 'rear wing' in the B & W testing picture is really just an extension of the venturi. A real attempt at getting rid of a rear wing.

[Megatron]

Reminds me of the 2000 Prost.....great looking car, horrible performance.

Poor old Mario.....it was only his immense skill (and CR's) that the car did as well as it did.

Must have been tough to dominate the year before and be stuck in mid field (ie Hill 1996-1997).

[Leif Snellman]

When the Lotus 80 was first displayed to the public it was without front wings. There is a picture in Mike Lang's Grand Prix! Volume 3 , page 277.

[Felix Muelas]

I do not want to sound like I am repeating myself, but the only time the car was on the track for a Grand Prix, that I can remember, in its original configuration (i.e. without front wings and, as Ray perfectly points out, with the rear almost as a continuation of the tunnel) was at the Jarama weekend in 1979.
And it was bloody quick, as far as I can remember (we will have to review the practice times) but handled quite weirdly in places that, because of the many years seeing cars through them, one would have expected differently.
At the exit of the second Le Mans corner, for instance, the line that Mario was using (or the car was "suggesting" to be used) was completely different from all the other cars (except the Ensign with the huge radiator at the front, that I am not sure if it was used in the race -but it was at Kyalami-) and coming upwards from Bugatti was simply breathtaking.
That's what I recall, and somehow have the sensation that all graphic material that I saw later seemed to indicate that front wings were "indispensable".
But please correct me if I am wrong. I would not make a "casus belli" on this one, promised !
;-)
Felix

[John Cross]

Felix,

Are you not thinking of the early testing at Jarama before the GP? Here is what Autocourse says of the 80 in the GP report:

The Lotus 80 was running the same double rear wing and front wings which had been used at Brands Hatch, but even so it was still timed quickest of the Ford-powered cars on the main straight, although considerably slower than the turbo Renaults...

Here is a picture of the 80 during the GP (notice the missing front wing - has this caused any of the 'front wing' confusion?



Mario was 4th in practice, behind the Ligiers and Gilles, and was 3rd in the race - by far the 80's best performance!

BTW, how do you guys think the 80 would have gone with active suspension (to reduce the effects of its pitch sensitivity)?

[Felix Muelas]

John,

I don´t know !
But not everybody used to be there on Thursdays...
The pic you posted is from the race, from the second half (Andretti lost the front wing touching Tambay at around lap 40).
I clearly remember the Thursday or Friday practice, and the car was hidden after that. But being the times they were, of course I managed to take a look...there were no front wings at all, and the rear one was at around 50/60 cms from the floor.
On Saturday, I think, the front wings appeared (or maybe in Friday afternoon, I am not that sure about) but definitely there is a shot of the car climbing Bugatti on that configuration...and I will find it.
:-)
fm

[Roger Clark]

Wasn't the Brabham BT48, in its original form, similarly wingless?

[Ali_G]

I think that Brabham had a rear wing but was without a front wing. But through the season they figured out that the front could not create enough downforce for Slow Circuits and so a front wing was added on Certain Weekends

[Roger Clark]

By the time the Brabham raced it had a rear wing. But when originally presented to the press, it had none, just like the 80. gordon Murray found out quicker that it wouln't work...

[Ali_G]

What i cannot understand is why you would want a car without wings. The downforce generated by the underside of the car could not be altered to affect the balance of the car. Kinda stupid if you think about it.

Ali_G

[Leif Snellman]

I think Lotus were looking too much on gaining straight line speed by reducing drag . If I remember right Lotus 78 had been one of the slowest cars in the 1977 field on the straights and the Lotus 79 wasn't ideal on the straights either. It was in the corners were the Lotus cars gained their seconds.

[Ray Bell]

And, of course, winning is never enough!

[Rob Ryder]

Felix

It seems that we have differing opinions as to when the Lotus 80 ran in wingless form? You seem sure that it was
practice for the Spanish GP at Jarama, and I thought I remembered it at the French (Dijon). That sent me to my library and my old copies of Motor Sport magazine. Here are a few quotes from Denis Jenkinson in the actual GP reports from 1979 for the three races in which the 80 competed.

Spanish GP (Jarama)

"When it all got underway Andretti was in the 80 and Reutemann in the 79...... When the cars turned out for practice the Brabhams were running without nose-fins, and the Williams team were preparing to follow suit, while in contrast Andretti was running the 80 WITH nose fins and no skirts under the nose cowling..."
The photographs in the magazine bear this out.

Monaco GP

No mention in the report of what aerodynamics was used on the 80, but it is fair to assume a full wing pack, this being a high down force circuit. There are some great photographs in Rainer Schlegelmich's book showing the 80 with a full aero package front and rear.

French GP (Dijon)

"Lotus turned up with four cars, a pair of 80 models for Andretti and a pair of 79's for Reutemann..... Lotus 80/2 was a new car, only test run, and with so many modifications that it was virtually a Mark 2. The whole underside of the car has been reshaped... the nose has been reshaped, and the upper aerofoil at the rear has been dispensed with. It was again running with the skirts under the nose cone...."

As I said, the picture I sent to Ali_G was from the French!

Rob

[Ali_G]

I would have thought that the Lotus 78 would have been blistering down the straights. With a lot of downforce coming from Ground Effect the drag would be alot less.

Ali_G

[Megatron]

The Lotus 78 was a total dog on the straights (IIRC) because of the bulky ground effects. I remember Mario got tired of hearing what a great car it was around the turns by saying "if we didn't corner .3 quicker, we'd get passed".

Mario is one of my favorite drivers ever, and I always get a little sad to think that after 2 1/2 year of success, the Lotus/Andretti relationship went down with the results.

The 80 (or the 79 painted green) is one of the best looking cars I have ever seen, compliminted by Andretti's silver helment.

If only it had performed better......

[Felix Muelas]

Rob,

Excellent reconstruction the one you made.
Now we are left with a doubt, as Tom Berge sent me the picture I was thinking about (Racer will probably post it here later) and, to be honest, whilst I was expecting it to be pretty clear as far as "where" I have to reckon that it is impossible to deduct if the track is Dijon or Jarama. I mean, I accept the possibility that 21 years ago, what I saw was not what I think I saw, and I might have "substituted" the 80/1 (in Jarama fashion) for the 80/2 (in Dijon´s) in my mind.
This is one of the problems of ageing...you might end up mixing things and inventing stories.
If only I could find my own shots from Jarama the matter could be settled, but meanwhile I will accept your reconstruction as the most feasible one.
Tks
Felix

[Racer.Demon]

Felix,

At your service...

[Flicker]

One more pic...

[Felix Muelas]

OK, guys, I am not that old…
Tom Berge has (again) found some very interesting material, this time in the form of two halves of the Lotus 80 in wingless fashion (that I will ask Mattijs to post for your pleasure) where the track IS identifiable.
Needless to say that the track is Jarama, and should you need details, the shot is taken in the very short straight that used to be between the two right-handers called Monza. See those white & red stripes on the external part of the track? They were painted white and green for 1980 (as all the others) but the cement painted like a tennis court remained.
This does not mean that, at Dijon, a similarly wingless car (the Mark 2) might have been practising is such a shape, but to me the chances look slim. This configuration (this very peculiar configuration) was not obviously giving the results expected, so probably after a couple of laps wings were added and the skirts in front and behind the tyres were "removed".
Finally, my original recollections seem to be right. The first "official" session of 90 minutes taking place in the afternoon of Friday, these shots were taken on Friday morning.
Maybe, as I suggested above, not everybody was present…

Felix Muelas

[Racer.Demon]

Here's Mattijs posting for your pleasure...

[Ali_G]

What I can't understand is how they balanced the car for the different circuits. Surely it would be near impossible to change the bodywork everytime you wanted to add a little downforce here and there.

[BT52]

Just wondering if anyone was getting confused with the 1982 Twin-chassis (?) Lotus which was I believe banned before it had a chance to race.

Great looking car with no front wing and a very low rear one.

Anyone got a piccie of it?

[Ray Bell]

There's a thread about it somewhere... try the search facility.

[BT52]

Thanks, there were a few things, but I was mainly wondering if that was the car some people were looking for.

Was interested to notice that you were the last person to post on approx 60% of the threads the search found....

[Ray Bell]

Sometimes I wonder if I kill the threads. Occasionally I have had a bit of a post-fest, especially during the torments I suffered in July.

[John Cross]

It's interesting to compare Mattijs' pictures with this one taken at Monaco (had to scan it in two halves and didn't have time to stitch them - sorry!





The skirt seems to get deeper toward the front and the attachment to the body has changed. Any thoughts?

[Maldwyn]

John,
Is your Monaco photo from the late, great Grand Prix International Magazine?

[Ray Bell]

Looks like it's from a photographer who bumped the shutter when he fell over...

[John Cross]

Maldwyn and Ray - it's from Autocourse and the photographer is called David Winter. Given that it's in focus (and these are pre auto-focus days), I presume he is lying down rather than falling over

[Falcadore]

What puzzles me is why I can only view one of those pictures, the last one from Monaco
yours
Jonesy

[John Cross]

Jonesy,

They do both display eventually, but the first one is larger (file size). Also sometimes Geocities does get overloaded - does anyone know of an alternate freebie ISP I can deposit my images on?

[Ray Bell]

John, I thought you would have been aware!
In your profile you mention that you like understanding how things work... here at Atlas F1, since you began posting, they have offered a 10 meg website to anyone who posts over 1000 times. You've only got - at this time - 925 to go!

[John Cross]

Ray,

Yes I know about the member's space - it's a quick server too! I better get posting!

[Felix Muelas]

Sorry, just testing if I have understood how to post a picture...
;-)

(It looks like yes...Racer will be happy!)

[Racer.Demon]

Oh yes, he is.

[Ray Bell]

We can help, John, can't we folks? Let's ask lots of questions John can answer so he can get his post rate up.

[magic]

chapman warned his competition in 1978 the lotus 80 would be more of an advantage than the allconquering lotus 79 had been.

the first grainy b/w spyshots were sensational and at the launch all were amazed.

what happened?

[Maldwyn]

For more on this take a look at http://www.atlasf1.c...p?threadid=8706

[Jhope]

Originally posted by Ali_G
Can anyone get a picture of the Lotus 80 on the Net. It was an unusual car as it had no front or rear wing relying on Two Venturi tunnel which ran the lenght of the car to give it its downforce. But it was replaced with a different car after three GP as it did not work properly. Anybody got a URL for it ?

Ali_G

I think you mean the Arrows A2. Read this Ali and it sounds similar to what you are saying.






David Hodges

A2 This was to be a total wing car, giving exceptional downforce with low drag penalties, and as soon as it was run at a race meeting (the 1979 French GP) the team knew thatit had created a lemon, despite brave assertions that 'Tony Southgate's revolutionary design is a massive leap forward'. It had a short Bullet nose, faired-in front suspension members which governed airflow to the side pods, a cockpit well forwatd, engine and gear box tilted upwatds to the rear to allow for a full-width underside aerofoil section, and inboard suspention all round. The car was far from Nimble on slow corners, and it suffered badly from 'porpoising' elsewhere - the unlovely thisng was so far from competitive that within weeks of its first race work had started on its successor, and A1bs were sometimes brought back into service in 1979. (Southgate had generated massive downforce, but had not learned how to harness it in a balanced car - nobody fully under stood ground effects at the time.)

Drivers: Riccardo Patrese, Jochen Mass.

[jmcgavin]

I never knew Arrows had entered the truck racing championship as well that year :-)

[magic]

thanx