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Most unsuitable saloon racing cars


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#651 2Bob

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 20:08

Love that! Do you have anything you can tell me about the car?

try this:

 

http://forums.autosp...ec-poole-rover/



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#652 BRG

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 20:37

 Unfortunately I cannot, but speaking of Strange Rovers at the recent Classic Motor Show

 

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a rally spec 2-door P6 with 4 litre motor was on display promising 0-60mph in 7 secs :smoking:

What is it intended for?  Not eligible for any historic rallying, and not competitive in modern rallying.  The bull bar suggests long distance endurance type events?



#653 275 GTB-4

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 20:53

Love that! Do you have anything you can tell me about the car?


Mid mounted Repco Holden V8...went very well...read a little more here

http://www.rovercarc....au/photos3.htm

#654 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 22:41

Originally a Traco-Olds engine...

And the engine was never so far back as to say it was 'mid-mounted'.

#655 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 23:17

As an aside, the Buick and Olds engine were similar but not the same. Why defeats me but one had a different number of head studs to the other among other differences. Who knows which was which and which one the Rovers ended up using.

I think I used to know :evil:  but have had the odd sleep since last working on a [by then] 4.4 Leyland engine. 

Traco modified Olds engines, possibly by arrangement with the factory or dealers. I thought Repco based their engines on the Buick?  Presumably the one with more head studs would have been the better bet?



#656 hittheapex

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 01:24

 

 

Mid mounted Repco Holden V8...went very well...read a little more here

http://www.rovercarc....au/photos3.htm

 

Thanks. Wonderful photographs and the car looks just as good in blue or red. 550bhp with that wheelbase, no wonder there is a lot of rubber. Not just enough to get from A to B, but from A to Z and back again. I really like cars of that short, squat stance. I saw a Dolomite Sprint that I really liked at Donington one year, this Rover is even better.



#657 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 01:32

Repco-Brabham V8s were based on the Oldsmobile block...

It was the one with fewer head studs, but they made up for that in other ways. It's altogether possible that the Buick arrangement was because it was easier to do with the traditional Buick-style rocker cover mount angle.

On the other hand, I feel certain that the Rover and Leyland V8s came from the Buick base.

#658 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 01:33

Oh yeah, the Rover might have had wider rubber if our rules didn't limit it to 10" wide rims...

Though cars owned by Moffat didn't have to stick to that rule.

#659 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 02:50

Oh yeah, the Rover might have had wider rubber if our rules didn't limit it to 10" wide rims...

Though cars owned by Moffat didn't have to stick to that rule.

If you are referring to the Monza it may have done one or two events in DeKeon form. It seems the race organisers wanted it legal or not.

Though I doubt the tyres were any wider, just suited the rims correctly!

Many classes in that era used very wide tyres not really suited to the rim width, in some cases even the manufacturers specs. 13-14" wide tyres on 10" rims was stupid, the tyres rolled all over the rims and in effect you were using about 2/3 of the tyre.

IF the rules were ever enforced the majority of competitors with V8 Tourers and Sports Cars and Sedans would have been disqualified. 

Better these days though there is still many with huge tyres on narrow rims.

GpNc with the 275 wide tyres on 8" rims. Though the book does say 8-10 " wide rims. Unlike the past where the recomended rim was 11-14" with cars racing on 10" wide rims.

For the best performance any race tyre should be on the maximum size rim, not the mininum.



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#660 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 03:52

I don't doubt that he might have done so with the Monza...

But I know that Frank Gardner picked him for having 13" or 14" wheels on the back of the Capri at Wanneroo.

#661 Catalina Park

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 06:23

I worked on a Monza that was running 12's. Though they were 10's by the time they had the tyres stripped and the wheels measured properly. (now you see it and now you don't)

#662 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 08:06

The fronts were stripped instead of the rears?

Frank's approach, on seeing the size of tyres Moffat had fitted, to ask how the service he was getting to Goodyear was. And once answered he made reference to them being pretty good to get those huge tyres on 10" rims. I gather the following week he had smaller tyres and rims when he ran at Adelaide.

#663 Catalina Park

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 08:48

The fronts were stripped instead of the rears?

Something like that but not quite. Was funny though.

#664 arttidesco

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 09:35

What is it intended for?  Not eligible for any historic rallying, and not competitive in modern rallying.  The bull bar suggests long distance endurance type events?

 

Sorry I forgot to take a photo of the info board :blush:



#665 timbo

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 07:41

BARC ran the Burton sprint around the factory in Leeds. They still have "The Burton Trophy" which is now awarded at one of the Harewood meetings.
 
 
I did once see a Land Rover sprinting at an event at Leconfield airfield (aka Carnaby 2).


Did someone mention Land Rover ?

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#666 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 08:40

Taking advantage of the light alloy body...

Originally posted by hittheapex
.....Wonderful photographs and the car looks just as good in blue or red. 550bhp with that wheelbase, no wonder there is a lot of rubber.....


No Repco-Holden F5000 engine ever gave that much power, perhaps 525 for the best of them...

But it's more likely it was a 90° crank rather than a flat plane in this one, while it's also very unlikely it had the very latest of mods that Repco did for their top engines.

It's way more likely that this installation saw about 480 or so bhp.

#667 hittheapex

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 09:37

Taking advantage of the light alloy body...


No Repco-Holden F5000 engine ever gave that much power, perhaps 525 for the best of them...

But it's more likely it was a 90° crank rather than a flat plane in this one, while it's also very unlikely it had the very latest of mods that Repco did for their top engines.

It's way more likely that this installation saw about 480 or so bhp.

Thanks Ray, I admire engineering but am far from technically minded, so just had to go with what I'd read online. Still, I'm sure 480bhp, to quote Rolls-Royce and Bentley from the past, is "sufficient." :)



#668 mph911

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 09:46

How much HP do the F5000's make now?



#669 ian senior

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 10:19

.

On the other hand, I feel certain that the Rover and Leyland V8s came from the Buick base.

Yes, thats right.  In fact, when Rover were developing their version of the engine, they employed an ex-Buick engineer (Joe Turley?) for a while to help with his advice and experience.



#670 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 10:20

More than that...

They have many better components today, more proficient flow benches and operators, better cam profiles and they push them further because those better components let them.

#671 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 10:55

More than that...

They have many better components today, more proficient flow benches and operators, better cam profiles and they push them further because those better components let them.

Better heads, better and lighter pistons and rods. 

Reputedly in period they made high 400s and probably 80 more now.

Speaking to Chris Milton at Mallala a couple of years ago he reckons with a Chev there is a 100hp. That is just with internal components. Everything is lighter, cams and valve trains are a LOT better, and yes porting is better too. Though why use period heads, all the aftermarket stuff is a lot better and cheaper to develop too.



#672 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 10:58

Did someone mention Land Rover ?

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Different. Keep the crowds happy. Less aerodynamic though than  57 Chev. The tent should be good at 100 mph plus!



#673 Duc-Man

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 15:19

Taking advantage of the light alloy body...


No Repco-Holden F5000 engine ever gave that much power, perhaps 525 for the best of them...

But it's more likely it was a 90° crank rather than a flat plane in this one, while it's also very unlikely it had the very latest of mods that Repco did for their top engines.

It's way more likely that this installation saw about 480 or so bhp.

I've been told that the best Chevy F-5000 engines had about 540hp around '77/'78.



#674 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 22:13

I've been told that the best Chevy F-5000 engines had about 540hp around '77/'78.

Probably with the then ultimate Brownfield heads. Which were a bit iffy keeping the water where it was supposed to be.

I had a pair of 292 Chev castings, originally from a 5000 and used on the VesKanda Sports car originally and they flow a lot less than a Dart 2 head which supposedly are about equvilant to a Brownfield or early Dash 8 Brodix. These days they are mild street heads!

That is the development. The supercar HMS [Chev] heads are probably a 100 hp better too. reputedly they make 640hp these days. But only about 420 ft lbs of torque. Though those heads really are a clone of a Ford head. Canted valves, equal port spacing etc. They are the junior version of what Nascar used before they went totally racing engine.

360 Sprintcar heads are 23 degree and make about 640 too these days though they are turning them VERY tight at over 8500. Those heads on a 5000 would make similar power with a good deal less torque. But again have to be turned very hard.

410s are off the planet, [besides drag race stuff] that is why they make 800 plus these days but again over 8000rpm. Both capacity Sprint engines are becoming very  high maintenance.

3 years ago a good winning 360 here in Oz would do 20 shows with routine maintenance, now it is about 8 with far more maintenance. I am damned if I know where the money is coming from now with the AUD at about 84c to the USD.



#675 275 GTB-4

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 05:24

Did someone mention Land Rover ?


No...but why not!

GO ARMY!

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#676 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 06:35

Originally posted by Duc-Man
I've been told that the best Chevy F-5000 engines had about 540hp around '77/'78.


Quite likely they did...

But this conversation is about a Repco-Holden F5000 engine, based on the (quite different) Holden 308 V8.

Then again, Repco figures were often a bit on the conservative side, with his 525hp engine John Walker could pass anyone up either straight at Sandown any time he liked in 1975 so easily he didn't even bother to try to win the start from pole position.

Repco had a team that was way ahead of any of the usual tuning shops, very professional and very capable blokes who actually made a lot of the gear they worked with as well.

#677 GMACKIE

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 06:55

And here's me thinking it was about "Most unsuitable saloon racing cars".



#678 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 09:08

It's about the F5000 engine in the Rover...

Sometimes you need to follow things closely, skip over some rubbish to keep up with the story.

#679 Piquet959

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 09:39

I remember the Camel filter Rover competing frequently at Calder in the SS Series.
If I remember it went like stink but seemed to suffer from reliability problems.

I think it was James Smith that was the driver at the time.

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#680 arttidesco

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 12:10

No...but why not!

GO ARMY!

 

 

British Army On The Rhine swb Land Rover

 

82_10_BAOR_Land_Rover_1.jpg

 

Autotest

 

82_10_BOAR_Landrover_2.jpg

 

Südring Car Park Paderborn, circa 1982.


Edited by arttidesco, 17 December 2014 - 12:11.


#681 GMACKIE

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 20:14

Much needed parking practice ?



#682 275 GTB-4

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Posted 15 April 2015 - 06:41

Interesting thread.

2 cars at Bathurst come immediately to mind, in the 70's someone entered a HQ Monaro with 308 and auto and I think the 80's some Journo clown entered a standard off the showroom floor (even road tyres) Volvo "to prove a point" - many of the other racers were pissed off as is was so dangerous out there and if I remmebr coreectly was the cause of at least one car to go off track avoiding it.


Far from me being a cardigan wearing, Volvo a fish an ne'er–do–well, bowling club member...I do think a little balance might go well here, here's some of what David McKay said:

The ARDC trusted both David and Spencers judgement about NOT being too slow

Finished 20th Outright

"Never lifted the bonnet" , "ran like clockwork"

Covered one lap short of the 1967 winner

Out qualified several more fancied runners in the rain

Uniroyal were very pleased how their standard steel-belted radial tyres preformed (Steel Cats - went the whole distance) and took out a lot of advertising post-Bathurst

Minimal prep, head wasn't lifted, 8000 fast kilometres put on it SYD-PTH over 6 days (with Peter Antill and Archie White, which according to David, was one of the most enjoyable weeks of his life)


Edited by 275 GTB-4, 15 April 2015 - 12:05.


#683 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 15 April 2015 - 09:57

Far from me being a cardigan wearing, Volvo a fish an ne'er–do–well, bowling club member...I do think a little balance might go well here, here's some of what David McKay said:

The ARDC trusted both David and Spencers judgement about NOT being too slow

Finished 20th Outright

"Never lifted the bonnet" , "ran like clockwork"

Covered one lap short of the 1967 winner

Out qualified several more fancied runners in the rain

Uniroyal were very pleased how their standard steel-belted radial tyres preformed (Steel Cats - went the whole distance) and took out a lot of advertising post-Bathurst

Minimal prep, head wasn't lifted, 8000 fast kilometres put on it SYD-PTH over 6 days (with Peter Anthill and Archie White, which according to David, was one of the most enjoyable weeks of his life)

Yes, but as cheapy said 4 years ago it was a stunt and way too slow. A shopping trolley in a race for race cars.

In those days the small cars were a hazard,, and they were [usually] properly prepared race cars



#684 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 April 2015 - 11:53

Peter Anthill?

One of the most important people in motor sport in Australia in the fifties, he deserves to have his name spelled properly!

ANTILL.

#685 275 GTB-4

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Posted 15 April 2015 - 12:25

Hmmmm...well sports-fans, there is no way that this little black duck would presume to either defend and/or criticise a man like David McKay...

 

From my reading, he went to a lot of trouble to realise his concept, i.e. "the car should be as sold off the showroom floor and so distinct from the highly modified Bathurst runners"

 

David had to convince his board, he had to convince Spencer and stitch up sponsorship.

 

He asked Spencer to come out to Oran Park and try the car...the car lapped in just over 60 seconds consistently. He then gave the car to Spencer who was driving to Melbourne with his wife. "This convinced him that the 242 would run effortlessly all day at Bathurst and finish, which was the important point" 

 

Finally...

 

David said: "All in all it had been a success, the unscathed car was sold to Uniroyal's satisfaction and I had my last race"



#686 h4887

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Posted 15 April 2015 - 19:48

Seen at Snetterton last Sunday. I can't remember ever seeing one of these racing before...

 

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#687 john aston

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 06:34

No - but I do recall a superbly prepared version of the Consul Classic Coupe competing at Harewood in late 60s. 



#688 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 09:37

Most unsuitable? Maybe not but a bit off an odd. This was at PI in 2012. It was log booked as a Nc which is 65-72 as noone had ever raced oDSCF3533.jpg


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 16 April 2015 - 09:38.


#689 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 09:43

Grrr, bloody site. What I had started to say noone had ever raced one in period.

As an aside and should be totally unsuited. In speedway sedans in the late 60s one of those Citroens was a regular winner, in fact won the 69? SA Championship against Holdens Valiants, Falcons and the odd Cusso and Mini too. Matt black before it was trendy,,, radiator paint. The owner/ driver Dave King was a radiator repairer.



#690 GMACKIE

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 09:58

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#691 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 10:22

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You win. Defenitly unsuitable for anything. The biggest question is WHY?


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 16 April 2015 - 10:30.


#692 carlt

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 10:26

looks like the front l/h spring has been omitted 



#693 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 12:12

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
Most unsuitable? Maybe not but a bit off an odd. This was at PI in 2012. It was log booked as a Nc which is 65-72 as noone had ever raced one.
DSCF3533.jpg


What a load of rubbish!

For starters, Don Wright raced one in the sedan races at Bathurst in October, 1955.

#694 Piquet959

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:31

Check out the real story of the car that Michael Stupka races, the Citroen above. It is an original race car of the period and I am sure that it actually has a Group C log book. It is probably better racing in Nc as opposed to Group C. Nc regulations cover all cars that raced in the period not just the main protagonists like Falcons, toranas and chargers. This fits nicely.

Edited by Piquet959, 18 April 2015 - 11:16.


#695 Piquet959

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:32

Check out the real story of the car that Michael Stupka races, the Citroen above. It is an original race car of the period and I am sure that it actually has a Group C log book. It is probably better racing in Nc as opposed to Group C. Nc regulations cover all cars that raced in the period not just the main rot agonists like Falcons, toranas and chargers. This fits nicely.

#696 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:40

What a load of rubbish!

For starters, Don Wright raced one in the sedan races at Bathurst in October, 1955.

I am quoting what the man told me. The car should be NA, defenitly not Nc.

I am not sure how it would be a race car of the period UNLESS it raced late 60s.

I pictured it because it was different. and probably competitive in the 50s early 60s. Where by the Nc category it did not race.

So dont give me crap!!


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 17 April 2015 - 02:41.


#697 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 03:29

Several of these raced, Lee...

In 1951 Bill Buckle ran one at Bathurst, it would be no surprise to find others even if the Buckle car later became the Wright car.

Someone in Queensland used to tool around in one regularly. He'd run it as a Touring Car at the beginning of the day, then with the bumpers off, windscreen out, back seat gone and a few other things he'd run it as a Sports Car. By the time the final Racing Car race of the day was run he'd have pulled off the guards and whatever else unbolted and run it as an open wheeler.

#698 Catalina Park

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 05:24

I am quoting what the man told me. The car should be NA, defenitly not Nc.

I am not sure how it would be a race car of the period UNLESS it raced late 60s.

I pictured it because it was different. and probably competitive in the 50s early 60s. Where by the Nc category it did not race.

So dont give me crap!!

It is a genuine car that raced in the Nc period, it has as much right to be in Nc as any other genuine car that raced in the 65 to 72 era.

It might offend you but tough.



#699 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 06:38

It is a genuine car that raced in the Nc period, it has as much right to be in Nc as any other genuine car that raced in the 65 to 72 era.

It might offend you but tough.

A 10-15 y/o car in period is still not really a Nc.That category is for cars BUILT between 65-72. Not 1954 or so. A 1954 car is Na

Which is what I have said all along. 


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 17 April 2015 - 06:40.


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#700 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 08:08

Its wheels are too wide for Na for a start...

Maybe he simply doesn't want to reduce the car's performance?

Michael, where did it run and when in the Nc period?