The Ford team have "instructed" the private entrant Janne Tuohino to give up his 4th position at the finish of the FIA Swedish Rally to allow Colin McRae to get a point. It appears that Tuohino has been offered assistance from Ford in future rallies.
THIS TOTALLY STINKS! If Ford think they can instruct non team members to give positions away the FIA MUST act swiftly to take Ford's points away!
It is one thing for teams to instruct their own members but totally different when it comes to fixing the results by influencing non team entrants. After the debacle of Monte-Carlo, the Rally championship is starting to become a farse!
The FIA have made it clear that they do not want to see any fixing of results (they are not happy when it is done inside the team) and I am convinced that this action has broken the sporting code / regulations.
If you don't think this applies to F1, think again!
What if Jaguar are behind Arrows in a race and Ford say to Arrows, "we will give you better support with your engines in future if you let the Jag pass". (Apply similar logic to every other team with shared factory support)
THE FIA must act now to put a stop to this, otherwise they might as well tear up the rule book!
Ford's illegal Rally fix
Started by
Peter
, Feb 04 2002 08:35
32 replies to this topic
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#2
ehagar
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 08:42
Welcome to the politics of World Rally, it is nothing new.
Last year Richard Burns got some extra points this way. It is just the way it is. The factory drivers run the full season, and rallies are so unpredicable. One point really can make the difference. Just look how close the title was last year. 4 drivers could have theoretically won the championship going into GB.
What about intentionally dropping stages in order to not go first on gravel roads in the next stage? I think the fastest should be able to chose their starting slot for the next section... but it doesn't work that way.
Strategy and politics are all part of rally.
Last year Richard Burns got some extra points this way. It is just the way it is. The factory drivers run the full season, and rallies are so unpredicable. One point really can make the difference. Just look how close the title was last year. 4 drivers could have theoretically won the championship going into GB.
What about intentionally dropping stages in order to not go first on gravel roads in the next stage? I think the fastest should be able to chose their starting slot for the next section... but it doesn't work that way.
Strategy and politics are all part of rally.
#3
Peter
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 08:52
This is NOT about individual drivers chosing to drive in a particular way, giving time away in the hope that they can regain it later!
This is about teams influencing the outcome of a race by bribing non-team (or other team) members and "fixing" a result that they were unable to achieve by the driving of their own team.
I don't care who does it, it is against what the FIA stand for so they should act to stamp it out.
This is about teams influencing the outcome of a race by bribing non-team (or other team) members and "fixing" a result that they were unable to achieve by the driving of their own team.
I don't care who does it, it is against what the FIA stand for so they should act to stamp it out.
#4
Hellenic tifosi
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 09:09
I think that this is a very difficult case. It is obvious that such incidents harm the sport but I can't think of any realistic solution. Do you have something to propose?
#5
Peter
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 09:29
Originally posted by Hellenic tifosi
I think that this is a very difficult case. It is obvious that such incidents harm the sport but I can't think of any realistic solution. Do you have something to propose?
Maybe it is too difficult for the FIA to enforce their own regulations, but that is what they are there for! If I were in Max's shoes, I would say that it is against the spirit of the regulations for a team to try to influence any competitor outside the team during a competition, and either:
1) if it is not actually breaking a written rule, make sure the rules are changed in future.
2) if it IS breaking a written rule, take Ford's points away (i.e. the whole team, and the penalty would be that instead of gaining an illegal point, they would loose Carlos Saintz's four points!)
They should at least invite Tuohino to come and discuss his actions.
Perhaps there should be a change to the regs., such that the result of the rally becomes official at the end of the final stage and not subject to some manipulation between then and the official finish.
Could you imagine the fury if a car that failed to complete the "winding down" lap after the chequered flag in F1 was then moved down the order, just because it did not get to the parc-ferme?
The last time I can remember something like this happening in F1 was in Spain in 1997 when a certain team manager went to another team, who were in the lead, and asked them to let his boys through!!!
#6
LuckyStrike1
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 09:32
Ford boss: "Hello, you might recognize me. If not, I'm glad to let you know that I'm the head of Ford Rally. Now, I see you drive a private Focus on this rally. You've been doing a great job. You enjoying the car?"
Ambitious rallydriver with no money: "Ehhhh yes it is very good"
Ford boss: "I'm glad to hear that. As I see it you have two options now. Either you just drive on to the finish and afterwards you can have a little celebration over your two championship points.. then only two you will ever get by the way. Or, you drop to 7:th and have a huge celebration, paid for by us of course, over the fact that you will have new parts and a paid entry in the Finnish rally later this year. Now .. what do you say about that?"
Ambitious rallydriver with no money: "Ehhhh yes it is very good"
Ford boss: "I'm glad to hear that. As I see it you have two options now. Either you just drive on to the finish and afterwards you can have a little celebration over your two championship points.. then only two you will ever get by the way. Or, you drop to 7:th and have a huge celebration, paid for by us of course, over the fact that you will have new parts and a paid entry in the Finnish rally later this year. Now .. what do you say about that?"
#7
Hakk
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 10:01
There is nothing to complain about this issue. Tuohino himself was very happy to give the 2 points away. In his words "he doesn't have any use for the points". Instead giving away those points made it possible for him to enter rally in Cyprus with Focus WRC. For a young driver who's target is getting a permament seat in WRC it is vital to impress team bosses and I think that is just what Tuohino did.
#8
scheivlak
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 10:16
Originally posted by Hakk
There is nothing to complain about this issue. Tuohino himself was very happy to give the 2 points away. In his words "he doesn't have any use for the points". Instead giving away those points made it possible for him to enter rally in Cyprus with Focus WRC. For a young driver who's target is getting a permament seat in WRC it is vital to impress team bosses and I think that is just what Tuohino did.
So there he is in Cyprus, brilliant 5th place overall after the last stage.
Ford boss: "Great drive, my lad. Now we have problem with Carlos, he's 7th at the moment. Would you please be so kind..... You know, we really like you to have in our team next time"
#9
speedy
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 10:29
I can completely understand Tuohino's point of view, a young driver trying to wake the team bosses' attraction. I bet Wilson was impressed and it would be no wonder if Janne earned himself at least a good chance for a Ford factory seat sometimes in future. In short term he earned parts and services from Ford for the Cyprus and Finnish rally.
From sporting point of view this is frustrating, rally driving gives you chances to do things like this, FIA has made the rules and they were not broken. I think FIA should change the rules so that manipulating like this would not be possible.
From sporting point of view this is frustrating, rally driving gives you chances to do things like this, FIA has made the rules and they were not broken. I think FIA should change the rules so that manipulating like this would not be possible.
#10
Hakk
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 10:30
scheivlak:
If he keeps driving those 5th places with private teams car and beats constantly ford's regular drivers, pretty soon he'll be the regular driver and others will do favours for him.
The point is that he has made the point! It doesn't mean a **** if he is 5th or 7th or 10th when he is driving a rally every now and then. What means somehting is that when you have a chance, you don't waste it. In sweden Tuohino proved 2 things to team bosses: he is fast and he is a teamplayer. If he would have kept the 5th place he would have proved that he is fast and not a team player. Take a wild guess in which of those 2 situations you have a better chance to get a permament drive.
By the way, if he wouldn't have done that favour to Ford, he wouldn't have even competed in Cyprus rally. At least now he has a chance. Plus now he is a candidate for a best possible Focus in his home rally, rally Finland.
If he keeps driving those 5th places with private teams car and beats constantly ford's regular drivers, pretty soon he'll be the regular driver and others will do favours for him.
The point is that he has made the point! It doesn't mean a **** if he is 5th or 7th or 10th when he is driving a rally every now and then. What means somehting is that when you have a chance, you don't waste it. In sweden Tuohino proved 2 things to team bosses: he is fast and he is a teamplayer. If he would have kept the 5th place he would have proved that he is fast and not a team player. Take a wild guess in which of those 2 situations you have a better chance to get a permament drive.
By the way, if he wouldn't have done that favour to Ford, he wouldn't have even competed in Cyprus rally. At least now he has a chance. Plus now he is a candidate for a best possible Focus in his home rally, rally Finland.
#11
scheivlak
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 10:40
1000 Lakes:
Ford boss: "Fantastic, Janne! Who would have thought you could win this! Well, we knew you were good, otherwise we didn't give you the car. BTW Colin needs those 10 points pretty bad, it's his only chance to catch up with your fellow Finn Gronholm. So, would you please..... of course you'll still be the moral victor for everyone...."
Ford boss: "Fantastic, Janne! Who would have thought you could win this! Well, we knew you were good, otherwise we didn't give you the car. BTW Colin needs those 10 points pretty bad, it's his only chance to catch up with your fellow Finn Gronholm. So, would you please..... of course you'll still be the moral victor for everyone...."
#12
Garagiste
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 10:45
I understand why Ford did this, and I can accept that it might may pay dividends long term for Tuohino.
It leaves a nasty taste in the mouth though - and it aint great PR for Ford. They were that soundly whipped by the Pugs it would have done them more favours to be a bit magnanimous about it, IMO.
It leaves a nasty taste in the mouth though - and it aint great PR for Ford. They were that soundly whipped by the Pugs it would have done them more favours to be a bit magnanimous about it, IMO.
#13
speedy
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 10:50
Garagiste,
well said
well said
#14
Janzen
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 10:52
There is a difference to team orders to this case.
Here atleast it seems that Janne was given a choice and he did just that.
It will be really hard to police this as a driver can always be late for a check point and give some reason or other. It is the same in F1 you when someone has problems with the tires and lets the Nr1 driver past and then suddenly the tires are working again.
The main thing is that we as the fans know who really was faster and if Colin wins the WRC with a few points then we know why.
Here atleast it seems that Janne was given a choice and he did just that.
It will be really hard to police this as a driver can always be late for a check point and give some reason or other. It is the same in F1 you when someone has problems with the tires and lets the Nr1 driver past and then suddenly the tires are working again.
The main thing is that we as the fans know who really was faster and if Colin wins the WRC with a few points then we know why.
#15
Hakk
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 11:01
scheivlak:
That's the way it is. Even if Tuohino would give those 10 points to Collin, he could be in Collins position next year. That's how rally is.
That's the way it is. Even if Tuohino would give those 10 points to Collin, he could be in Collins position next year. That's how rally is.
#16
AdrianM
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 11:15
I agree with Peter
It is just not fair. Although the private team use Fords they are a totally diiferent operation racing for their own reasons and goals. If they were teammates I would understandbut they arent. It is not fair for the big boy Ford to bully these teams and drivers by seducing them with rewards
People are forgeting that they are not teammates and this is anti competitive and just not right
It is just not fair. Although the private team use Fords they are a totally diiferent operation racing for their own reasons and goals. If they were teammates I would understandbut they arent. It is not fair for the big boy Ford to bully these teams and drivers by seducing them with rewards
People are forgeting that they are not teammates and this is anti competitive and just not right
#17
Peter
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 11:27
Originally posted by Hakk
scheivlak:
...he is fast and he is a teamplayer...
By the way, if he wouldn't have done that favour to Ford, he wouldn't have even competed in Cyprus rally. At least now he has a chance. Plus now he is a candidate for a best possible Focus in his home rally, rally Finland.
The whole point of this is the HE IS NOT ONE OF THE TEAM (yet)!
So now it is OK to bribe other competitors during a rally to manipulate the result?
What Ford should have done was offer him team support so that there is a "contract" for the future, not fix the results of the current race. All they have done in supporting his drive in Cyprus is opened up the potential for more manipulation!
Of course, I am pleased that another good driver gets the chance to compete in more rallies, but can we have a situation where a manufacturer can seed the competition with "privateers" who will give up their points.
If he was NOT interested in the two points, why was he competing?
Whatever the feelings of members of this BB, I think the FIA has a duty to try very hard to put a stop to this kind of manipulation of an FIA championship.
#18
AdrianM
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 11:42
I agree with Peter 100%
This must be stopped because the bigger teams will always have this power
The key point is they are not teammates and thus do not drive for the same team. It is two different teams with the same car type that is all.
This must be stopped because the bigger teams will always have this power
The key point is they are not teammates and thus do not drive for the same team. It is two different teams with the same car type that is all.
#19
LuckyStrike1
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 12:02
If you complain about Ford's or Peugeot's or any team's teamorders in WRC, it's also fitting that you complain about Ferrari's teamorders in F1.
Teamorders have been in motorsport for a long time, it's not that they exist I'm against, it's how they are used that can be discussed.
I don't have any problems with what Ford did in Sweden - Tuhonen didn't need the points for the championship and he had already proven what he could do.
Austrai 2001, Ferrari and Rubens ... now that is another matter
Teamorders have been in motorsport for a long time, it's not that they exist I'm against, it's how they are used that can be discussed.
I don't have any problems with what Ford did in Sweden - Tuhonen didn't need the points for the championship and he had already proven what he could do.
Austrai 2001, Ferrari and Rubens ... now that is another matter
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#20
david_martin
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 12:11
Originally posted by LuckyStrike1
If you complain about Ford's or Peugeot's or any team's teamorders in WRC, it's also fitting that you complain about Ferrari's teamorders in F1.
It is clearly inappropriate to talk about team orders in this instance - Janne Tuohino is a privateer with no connection to the Ford World Rally Team or even their tyre supplier Pirelli.
#21
Peter
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 12:13
Originally posted by LuckyStrike1
If you complain about Ford's or Peugeot's or any team's teamorders in WRC, it's also fitting that you complain about Ferrari's teamorders in F1.
Teamorders have been in motorsport for a long time, it's not that they exist I'm against, it's how they are used that can be discussed.
I don't have any problems with what Ford did in Sweden - Tuhonen didn't need the points for the championship and he had already proven what he could do.
Austrai 2001, Ferrari and Rubens ... now that is another matter
The whole point of this is that it was NOT team orders, as Tuhonen was not in the Ford TEAM!
If Ferrari were to have asked Prost (using a Ferrari engine last year) to move over so they could pick up extra points, it would have been entirely different than them instucting one of their own drivers how to behave)
This is the whole point of having TEAMS!
#22
Hakk
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 12:29
no connection to the Ford World Rally Team
I bet there is some connection since he is driving Ford Focus WRC car. I wonder where that car has came from...?
Anyways I think Janne did the right thing. That is motorsports - like it or not.
#23
Max Torque
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 12:32
This is hardly the worst thing that Ford has done in favor of Colin McRae.
If you follow Rally, you should remember the Acropolis Rally of 2000.
Ford ordered Carlos Sainz to pull back and let Colin McRae win the Rally because he was "going for the championship". Carlos Sainz, mind you, is a former Rally champion and he was ordered to abandon a Rally victory (he was 1st and Colin was 2nd).
What happened yesterday is trivial compared to that.
Colin McRae driving for Ford is probably worse than Michael Schumacher driving for Ferrari. The team exists only to serve him.
If you follow Rally, you should remember the Acropolis Rally of 2000.
Ford ordered Carlos Sainz to pull back and let Colin McRae win the Rally because he was "going for the championship". Carlos Sainz, mind you, is a former Rally champion and he was ordered to abandon a Rally victory (he was 1st and Colin was 2nd).
What happened yesterday is trivial compared to that.
Colin McRae driving for Ford is probably worse than Michael Schumacher driving for Ferrari. The team exists only to serve him.
#24
smallgod
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 12:37
Originally posted by LuckyStrike1
I bet there is some connection since he is driving Ford Focus WRC car. I wonder where that car has came from...?
So now Arrows lose to Jag, Sauber to Ferrari, Privateer bikers have to give way to the works teams...
Their competitive edge should be in that they ARE the works team, if they have all that but still can't win, they need to hire the privateers, dammit.
#25
AdrianM
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 13:02
The whole point of this is that it was NOT team orders, as Tuhonen was not in the Ford TEAM!
Exactly
Many people are missing this crucial point. The only connection between the two is the car is the same. But they are different teams . Therefore this should not be allowed to happen
#26
The First MH
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 13:23
I understand the problem, and do not agree that this sort of thing should occur. But how do you stop it? Any rule changes, and regulations that are aimed at stopping this kind of thing will just result in it happening behind closed doors. It will not stop them from doing it, but only ensure that they will become far more secretive about it. And I believe that is far worse than doing this sort of thing out in the open. At least we are not debating whether this actually occurred...
But still I agree that this is a problem. The other solution is just to stop the privateer cars from running (at least in the same series). But then I don't believe this to be a good solution. So this problem exists in WRC, and I personally don't think it will ever be solved, which is a shame. But at least it is out in the open, unlike F1... But we won't go there yet. Just my 1/2 cent...
But still I agree that this is a problem. The other solution is just to stop the privateer cars from running (at least in the same series). But then I don't believe this to be a good solution. So this problem exists in WRC, and I personally don't think it will ever be solved, which is a shame. But at least it is out in the open, unlike F1... But we won't go there yet. Just my 1/2 cent...
#27
Hellenic tifosi
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 13:29
Originally posted by Max Torque
This is hardly the worst thing that Ford has done in favor of Colin McRae.
If you follow Rally, you should remember the Acropolis Rally of 2000.
Ford ordered Carlos Sainz to pull back and let Colin McRae win the Rally because he was "going for the championship". Carlos Sainz, mind you, is a former Rally champion and he was ordered to abandon a Rally victory (he was 1st and Colin was 2nd).
What happened yesterday is trivial compared to that.
Colin McRae driving for Ford is probably worse than Michael Schumacher driving for Ferrari. The team exists only to serve him.
I felt very bad when Ford resorted to such tactics, but I enjoyed Sianz's reaction; he simply humiliated those stupid team orders. However, take into account that one year later Wilson let his drivers fight it out all by themselves in the Acropolis rally, so I think that you are exaggerating a little bit here...
#28
man from martinlaakso
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 14:43
I think, that the fixing, what Ford did, was totally understandible. Tuohino was only driving for individual rallies, but Colin was chasing the championship. So the taking the extra penalty for Tuohino was OK. This has happened many times before.
#29
Paste
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 14:47
I dunno, it's not all that different to Ferrari making Prost and Sauber vote a certain way on things because they run the Ferrari engine.
#30
-RM-
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Posted 04 February 2002 - 19:08
Just imagine if this was football instead of rally....
#31
Makarias
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Posted 05 February 2002 - 02:20
C'est la vie I guess... Big congrats to Alistair though, who got a bonus point for free!
#32
flyer72
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Posted 05 February 2002 - 03:34
I think it is unethical. Racing is racing - let's leave it at that. Ford is apparently learning from Ferrari...
What is next?
Arrows letting Jaguar by?
What is next?
Arrows letting Jaguar by?
#33
smallgod
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Posted 05 February 2002 - 07:20
Originally posted by flyer72
I think it is unethical. Racing is racing - let's leave it at that. Ford is apparently learning from Ferrari...
What is next?
Arrows letting Jaguar by?
I love that Ferrari invented team orders. Bad evil ferrari.
All those time in the old days when the junior drivers got hoofed out of their cars in mid race must have been something else...
