49 replies to this topic

[Don Capps]

One of the interesting things that happens when you are getting ready to move is the "stuff" you find in the process. As I gather and organize my books and magazines in my cottage for what should be the final PCS (Permanent Change of Station) move of my military adventure, I keep finding no end of things which slow me down.

Last night I found three items which prompted thoughts of a long-ago topic on at what point did the new CSI Grand Prix -- or "International" -- formula become "Formula 1" rather than "Formula A?" The three items are those magazine style annuals or season reviews & previews which were so popular in the early 1950's: Motor Cycle and Motor Racing 1951, edited by Col. Goldie Gardner; Car Racing 1952, edited by Stirling Moss; and, Car Racing 1953, edited by Lt. Col. A. T. Goldier Gardner, OBE, MC.

In the 1951 "book" covering the 1950 season, on page 5 Gardner calls it "Grand Prix Formula I" racing. On the same page he also refers to "Formula II" racing. However, on page 11 there is reference to a "Formula B" car, an H.W.M., running in a "Formula A" event, the International Trophy at Silverstone. On page 20, Gardber referes to "the current Formula A."

In the 1952 book (1951 season), on page 5 Dennis May points out that, "According to present plans, all Italian Formula A races in 1953 will use the 750/2,500cc framework...." Later on, "French organizers are putting practically all their eggs into the Formula B basket this year." And, "A series of eight races....are to be run to Formula B under the collective title of Les Grands Prix de France..." However, on page 12, there is a "Formula II" Ferrari.

In the 1953 "book," there is a Dunlop advertisement on page 2 touting Dunlop successes in "Formula II & Libre." On page 13, Stirling Moss refers to "Grand Prix, or Formula I" racing. And also mentions the "changeover to Formula 2 from Formula I last season...." and makes another mention "that race promoters turned from Formula I to Formula 2....."

Not sure whether this makes a dent in what we discussed earlier, but interesting to see how this was reflected in this series of "books."

[Vitesse2]

Sshhh .... I think I hear a rumbling from the direction of the the Pacific.;)

I would have expected some from Belgium and Italy too, but both Marcor and Alessandro are at Retromobile!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Formula A is now the highest form of National karting. the only level higher is the Formula Super A FIA World Championship. Is there any link between the end of car racing Formula A and the beginning of Kart Formula A, or is it just coincidence and lack of unique labeling

[Wolf]

Don, the search engine is still down, but there was thread recently dedicated to find out who/when/where/why changed Formula A to Formula I, and finally to Formula 1. I think Hans was master of the thread and that many sources were 'properly' quoted, and that term Formula I was dated as far back as '46, and that agreement was made that Formula I to 1, was probably to some typist when retyping texts...

When Bira fixes things, look it up, or somebody can post a link. Speaking of Bira, did You (considering this recent comotion) have a chance to speak to her on that matter?

[Vitesse2]

Hans is very busy right now, preparing for his next excavations in the libraries of Germany, but this would seem a good point to post these extracts from some ongoing research which he is leading. This is a collection of extracts from books and journals which we have gathered ("we" being Hans, Marc, Alessandro, Tony Kaye, Frank (FEV) and myself). As you will see, we have moved on significantly since the thread ended but of course Don's new information probably only adds to the confusion ... it will be added to the list in due course. Perhaps we can impose on a few of you to consult your own libraries and tell us what you find? Especially interesting would be anything from original magazine sources, from any country.

Red text is considered dubious or is just plain wrong! Names in brackets are contributors, and there are a few appended comments - the original quotes are, I hope, obvious.

1945 [Alan Henry: Autocourse 50 Years of World Championship Grand Prix Motor Racing, 2000, pg.27] Before the war, a change in Formula A regulations –effectively F1- had been penciled in for 1941, These rules would call for 4.5-litre unsupercharged or 1.5-litre supercharged engines, and in 1945 the newly titled Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA) quickly adopted these regulations for those who felt able to take part. Red text makes a wrong statement, compared to L’equipe of June 22, 1946. (Alessandro Silva)

1946 Feb ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Das Auto, 1948, No. 2, pg. 16] …1938-1946..In the year 1938 a new formula was introduced….. Theoretically, this formula was in place since it was not terminated by decision of the appropriate authority until February 28, 1946, the day of the first postwar meeting of the AIACR. (Hans Etzrodt)

1946 Feb [Laurence Pomeroy: The Grand Prix Car, Vol. Two, 1949, 1954, pg. 24] When Formula I was agreed at a meeting of the Federatiom Internationale de l’Automobile on February 28th, 1946, it was intended that it should cover the years 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950 and 1951. In October, 1951, the F.I.A. decided to extend the life of Formula I up to the end of December, 1953, that is to say, by a further two years. …..(Hans Etzrodt)

1946 Mar ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [The Motor, March 27, 1946, p161] ... Now, for 1947 and 1948 there is a nice new Formula, which turns out to be what we had all hoped - up to 1500cc supercharged and up to 3-litres un-supercharged.
So, when was the formula changed back?? And why?? And by whom?? (Richard Armstrong)

1946 May ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Motor Sport, May 1946, p105] New Formula
The AIACR has met again and provisionally decided on a formula for the classic races of 1947-51 with which few people will wish to quibble. No impositions will exist, beyond a capacity limit of 1.5 litres for supercharged engines and 3 litres for un-supercharged engines. Special fuel is to be permitted. This is the picture at present and it looks very satisfactory. But confirmation is to follow, at another AIACR meeting next month.. A change seems unlikely, however (Richard Armstrong)

1946 Jun ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [L’equipe, June 22, 1946] CSI a fixé hier à Paris la formule internationale. CSI has fixed yesterday (June 21, 1946) in Paris the international formula. 1.5 L s/c & 4.5 u/s. free fuel. No other provisions except: two rearview mirrors and two seats maximum. (Alessandro Silva)

1946 [Adriano Cimarosti: The Complete history of Grand Prix Motor Racing, 1986, pg. 130] At the end of 1946 the newly formed Fédération Internationael de l’Automobile decided to establish new rules for Grand Prix racing, and for the first time the term “Formula One” was applied. The rules laid down maximum capacities of 1500cc for supercharged engines and 4500cc for unsupercharged engines, which represented a change in the ratio between supercharged and unsupercharged engines from 1:1.5 (or 3 litres to 4.5 litres) which had existed since 1938, 10 1:3. (Hans Etzrodt)

1946 [Rodney Walkerley: Motor Racing, Facts & Figures, 1961, pg.86] 1946 No Formula was announced by the re-titled Federation Internationale de L'Automobile (FIA) and events were run for whatever cars existed, mostly 1500cc and 4½ litres un-supercharged. (Richard Armstrong)

1947 [Henri Cohin L’Historique de la Course Automobile, 1894-1976 Editions Fanauto, 1977, page 289] A new formula applicable from 1947 until the end of 1953 is installed: the Formula 1 will be limited to 4500cc for unsupercharged cars or 1500cc for supercharged. (Frank Verplanken)

1947 Oct [Doug Nye: Auto Course History of the Grand Prix Car 1945-65, 1993, pg. 33] On 23 October 1947, the doors of the Grand Palais in the Champs Elysées, Paris, opened on the second post-war Salon de l’Automobile exhibition.…. …. During the Salon the FIA’s sporting commission met to review motor racing’s future. They reached several important decisions.
Above all they confirmed that the existing fait accompli of 1.5 litres supercharged and 4.5 litres unsupercharged classes should apply for Grand Prix racing ostensibly until the end of 1953, six more full seasons. However, from 1 January 1948 any type of fuel would be permitted in place of the alcohol-only restrictions applied perforce since the resumption of serious competition in 1946. In addition, the meeting agreed to adopt a new Voiturette Formula for unsupercharged cars of no more than 2000 cc capacity and supercharged cars of no more than 500 cc.
To differentiate these two International single-seater Formulae, the Grand Prix class was referred to initially as Formula ‘A’, the Voiturette class as Formula ‘B’. To us and to the public at large they were to become better known, respectively, as ‘Formula 1’ and ‘Formula 2”. (Hans Etzrodt)

1947 Nov ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Das Auto, 1947, No. 11, pg. 16] …..The meeting of the FIA brought a sensation in its decisions by the sporting commission. ...As of January 1, 1948, a second racing formula will take effect….. cars with compressor up to 500 ccm, cars without compressor up to 2000 ccm; minimum distance 200 km. (Hans Etz)

1947 Dec ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Motor Sport December 1947 p376] Formula Racing
It seems that the existing Formula will govern International racing until 1953, with the alteration that from next year cars can be run on any fuel the entrant desires to use. For new boys, this means up to 1.5 litres supercharged, and up to 4.5 litres unblown. A most interesting voiturette Formula is also to be put into operation, confining small-car races to blown cars up to 500cc, and unblown cars up to 2 litres. This is a most intriguing development, if a nasty swipe to purveyors of British supercharged eleven-hundreds, such as the K3 MG.
Both before and after WW2, Motor Sport refer exclusively to "Formula racing" and "Formula cars" - I saw no references to Formula A or B (or Formula 1 or 2) up to the end of 1948. The first reference to the FIA (rather than the AIACR), which I have found is in March 1948. (Richard Armstrong)

1947 [G.N. Georgano – Editor –: The Encyclopaedia of Motor Sport, 1971, Dennis Jenkinson: pg.19] In 1947 the A.I.A.C.R. was reconstituted and renamed Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile or FIA for short, and the international subcommittee or Commission Sportive Internationale (CSI) controlled the racing rules and drew up the various classes of racing to be held at international level. Red text is a wrong statement, compared to L’equipe of July, 1946. (Alessandro Silva, Nov. 1, 2001)
The principal interest of the CSI was Grand Prix racing, regarded as the premier category, and sports car racing and other events were left to national clubs, but in 1947 it was apparently that the sport was growing rapidly and something more than grand Prix racing was going to be needed internationally. Racing was therefore divided into groups or formulas.
Grand Prix category was known as Formula 1, the Voiturette category became Formula 2 and 500 cc racing in Great Britain was called Formula 3. Red text: there was no Formula 1 yet in 1947 (Hans Etzrodt).

1947 [Rodney Walkerley: Motor Racing, Facts & Figures, 1961, pg.88] 1947 The CSI of the FIA announced the new Grand Prix regulations for the period 1948-1953, intended to include the pre-war cars. Two Formulae were drawn up - Formula I, for supercharged cars with a cylinder volume of up to 1,500 cc, and un-supercharged up to 4½-litres, which, it was thought, would equalize the performances that had been so widely separated under the pre-war rules of 3-litres with supercharger and 4½-litres un-supercharged. There were no limitations as to weight, fuel or type of body, apart from the obligation to fit two full-sized rear mirrors. Red text makes a wrong statement, compared to L’equipe of June 22, 1946. (Alessandro Silva, Nov. 1, 2001)

1947 [Giuseppe Guzzardi & Enzo Rizzo: The Century of MOTOR RACING, pg. 66, 1999] A number of early post-was events are worthy of particular mention including the formation of the FIA ( Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile), still responsible for all international motor racing events of European origins. The FIA took it upon itself to recognize the regulations for GP type racing within the context of a technological panorama in need of reconstruction and generally restricted economic resources. Thus was Formula 1 born in 1947 with its initial format dictated by the availability of cars developed before the war… (Hans Etzrodt)

1947 [David Hodges: A-Z of Formula Racing Cars, 1990, pg. 272]
When racing picked up after the Second World War grids were made up of late-1930s cars, and formule libre rules were applied so that the organizers of events could at least get fields together. By 1947, however, there was sufficient confidence for the Formula A that had been framed for 1941 to be promulgated as Formula 1. (Richard Armstrong)

1948 Feb ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Motor Sport, February 1948, pg. 39] The FIA surprised a lot of people by announcing an additional Formula for 1948 Grand Prix racing..........Formula I, and Formula II being for super-charged cars up to 500cc and unsupercharged cars up to 2000cc." Motorsport. The first I came across was in the February issue p.39. It would appear from this that FIA used the terms F I and F II. There is no mention of either F 1 or F 2, but there are other references to F I and F II in the same article. The next reference I found was not until the June edition when the GP de Roussillon was described as "for Formula II cars....". (Tony Kaye).


1948 Jul ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Speed Age 1948 July, p 21] ".....the Grand Prix of Pau......open to the Formula I cars....." The writer of this was none other than Count Lurani..... (Tony Kaye).

1948 Nov ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Motor Sport, November 1948, pg. 467] Despite all the races and race reports in the magazine during the summer months, the next reference I found was not until the November edition (p.467). Circuit of Florence. "This Formula B race was won by......" Now that's a surprise, F B not F II!
And that's it for the whole of 1948. But it really isn't so surprising that there should be so few references to the Formula as variously A, B, 1, 2, I or II. They simply referred to the events as Grands Prix or the cars as Grand Prix cars. (Tony Kaye).

1948 [D. S. Jenkinson: Motor Sport Racing Car Review 1949, p 105, published 1948] Despite its title, Denis Jenkinson's book "Motor Sport Racing Car Review 1949" was written in 1948 and is about the 1948 season. Throughout he refers to Formula A and Formula B. For instance on page 105 he states: As this small car racing was proving so popular, the International governing body of motor racing, the F.I.A., formerly the A.I.A.C.R., drew up two Formulae for International racing for 1948. Formula A was for the existing Grand Prix cars and Formula B for the small cars... My take on this subject is that in the very early days the formulae were usually referred to by letter or by Roman numeral and hardly ever as F 1 and F 2. (Tony Kaye).

1948 [John Eason Gibson: Motor Racing 1947, page 89, published 1949] The following are the current regulations governing Racing Cars including the 1948-1953 International formulae and Sports Cars as defined in the International Sporting Code.
RACING CARS
Formula 1, (F.I. 1)………….
Formula 2, (F.I. 2)………….
This was published in 1949 when the term Formula 1 became more popular (Hans Etzrodt).

1948 [Rex Hayes: The Vanishing Litres, 1957, pg. 147] In 1948 two Grand Prix Formulae were accepted for the following year. The major formula, which henceforward was to be known as Formula 1 (sometimes A), was as before, namely, 1,500 c.c. supercharged or 4.5 litres unsupercharged. The upgrading of what was formerly the Voiturette class and in the future to be known as Formula 2 (sometimes B) was for cars of 2 litres unsupercharged or 500 c.c. supercharged. ……(Richard Armstrong)

1948 [Anthony Pritchard: A Century of GRAND PRIX Motor Racing, 1998 compiled by A. Pritchard, pg. 73] 1946-48 Motor racing resumed after the war with a Formula Libre (’free formula’) race held in the Bois de Boulogne in Paris. Initially the official formula was a continuation of the pre-war Formula A for cars of 3 litres supercharged and 4.5 litres unsupercharged. There was a minimum race distance of 500 kilometers (311 miles). In reality the races were contested by a rather mixed bag of pre-war Voiturettes (the 1500 cc supercharged equivalent of modern Formula 2), 3-to 4.5-litre unsupercharged cars (French Delage, Delahaye and Talbot) and the old 8C-308 3-litre supercharged Alfa Romeo. From 1947 there was a new formula, soon to be called Formula 1, but originally again known as Formula A, for cars of 1500 cc supercharged and 4500 cc unsupercharged. The minimum race distance remained unchanged. “Pre-war Formula A” was never heard before! (Hans Etzrodt)

1948 [Pablo Gimeno Valledor: The International Penya Rhin Grand Prix, 1997, page 152]
In 1948 the Formula A and the Formula B were defined. In many fine books they mistakenly talked about Formula 1 and Formula 2, terms which were not used until 1950…..
The subsequent F1 and F2 of 1950, which were in force until 1953, were exactly the same as the Formula A and B, only the name changed…… (Hans Etzrodt)

1948 [Laurence Pomeroy and Rodney Walkerley: The Motor Year Book 1949, p 37, 53, published April 1949] Racing Results of 1948 Formula B Races. Term used instead of Formula 2, (Hans Etzrodt)
International Sporting Calendar for 1949 The suffix “A” or “B” in brackets indicates that the event concerned is to be run under the International Grand Prix Formula A (1½-litres supercharged, 4½-litres unsupercharged) or Formula B (500 c.c. supercharged, 2-litres unsupercharged). (Hans Etzrodt)

1948 Karl Ludvigsen: Classic Grand Prix Cars, 2000, pg. 109] …..The choice of the CSI was indeed a formula for Grand Prix cars of 1½ litres supercharged and 4½ normally aspirated. Although it wasn’t officially in effect until 1948, the new formula was adopted earlier by the organizers of major Grand Prix events.
At the time consideration was given to a new secondary or Voiturette formula. This was eventually settled at 2 litres unblown. Initially, the two categories were distinguished as Formula A and B, but the usage of Formulas 1 and 2 was soon adopted. Thus by the end of the forties the term ‘Formula 1’ for Grand Prix racing was both established and accepted. (Hans Etzrodt)

1949 Jul ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Das Auto, July 1949, No. 16, No. 17, No. 18] In issue #16, racing report of Reims, July 1949, both, Formel 1 and Formel 2 is written. Issue #17 writes about the Bari race Formel 2. In the report of issue #18, pg. 20, about the Lausanne race in August 1949, written by Paul Pietsch, it is typed Formel I and II instead of 1 and 2. (Hans Etzrodt)

1949 [Laurence Pomeroy and Rodney Walkerley: The Motor Year Book 1950, p 179, published March 1950] Racing Results of 1949
Formula A. Formula A events admit cars up to 1,500 c.c. supercharged and up to 4½-litres unsupercharged.
Formula B Racing. Formula B admits cars up to 500 c.c. supercharged and 2 litres unsupercharged. (Hans Etz.)

1949 [David Venables: First Among Champions: The Alfa Romeo Grand Prix Cars, 2000, pg. 250] [regarding Brivio] ..and may be regarded as the father of the World Championship, as he made the initial proposal to the FIA in 1949. I had already seen this story (I forgot where) to the effect that Lurani and Brivio, brotherly friends, had discussed the matter between them and Lurani, who was on the FIM (Motorcycle Federation) board, had it passed first, in 1948. If confirmed, it would make Brivio one of the outstanding figures in motoring history! (Alessandro Silva)

1950 [Rodney Walkerley: Motor Racing, Facts & Figures, pg. 98] 1950 A new circuit, especially constructed, was opened in a natural amphitheatre at Brands Hatch, 20 miles south-east of London, for 500 c.c. racing. This branch of the sport, established in Britain soon after the war as a form of inexpensive racing, was now at a stage, which warranted its definition by the F.I.A. as an International Formula III. …
The International Calendar was now overcrowded with events for Formula I, II and III, and ... (Hans Etzrodt)

FIA Under the title F1 Q & A, I (Hans.E.) found the following information (supplied by FIA) at the Forix site:
History QUESTION: How far back does Formula One go?
ANSWER: …Following the introduction of the first "formula" in 1904 by the FIA (which restricted maximum weight), categories were created for the smaller cars, but the name "Formula One" did not appear until 1948. The first Formula One race was at Pau on 29 March 1948 and was won by a Maserati. The FIA Formula One World Championship was created in 1950, and the first Formula One World Championship race was the British Grand Prix, at Silverstone on 13 May 1950. (Hans Etzrodt)

[Don Capps]

Ah, I love it when a good research plan comes together.....

[Wolf]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

1948 Jul ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Speed Age 1948 July, p 21] ".....the Grand Prix of Pau......open to the Formula I cars....." The writer of this was none other than Count Lurani..... (Tony Kaye).

...

1948 [Pablo Gimeno Valledor: The International Penya Rhin Grand Prix, 1997, page 152]
In 1948 the Formula A and the Formula B were defined. In many fine books they mistakenly talked about Formula 1 and Formula 2, terms which were not used until 1950…..
The subsequent F1 and F2 of 1950, which were in force until 1953, were exactly the same as the Formula A and B, only the name changed…… (Hans Etzrodt)

Reading those two quotes together shouldn't second one be:

1948 [Pablo Gimeno Valledor: The International Penya Rhin Grand Prix, 1997, page 152]
In 1948 the Formula A and the Formula B were defined. In many fine books they mistakenly talked about Formula 1 and Formula 2, terms which were not used until 1950…..
The subsequent F1 and F2 of 1950, which were in force until 1953, were exactly the same as the Formula A and B, only the name changed…… Red text makes a wrong statement in light of Tony Kaye's quote. (Hans Etzrodt)

[Wolf]

BTW, the search is back. Don, FYI the thread I was speaking of is When did the term 'Formula 1' first appear?...

[Vitesse2]

How right you are Wolf. I should explain that this was cut and pasted from a 49-page Word document, which is very much a "work in progress" - there are inevitably a few omissions!

But I think you'll agree that there is still much confusion and contradiction - even among respected writers like Jenks, Grande Vitesse and Cimarosti.

Re-reading the above extracts it occurs to me that the dubious FIA/Forix statement about Pau 1948 may very well be sourced to the Speed Age quote from Lurani in 1948 ...

[Roger Clark]

Am I missing something? It seems to me that the earliest original source quoted in Richard's summary that mentions Formula 1 is Motor Sport over the winter of 1947/48. It would seem probable that the CSI adopted the term (whether Formula 1 or I) at their usual meeting in October. If that is so, isn't the FIA/Forix statement about Pau 1948 quite correct? It was the first race under Formula 1 rules, even if the rules were the same as applie under another name in a previous year. What's in a name?

[David McKinney]

I'm with you on that, Roger
But a lot of people seem to think the terminology is vitally important.
Me, I'm happy to know there was a new formula for Grand Prix racing which was called Formula A for a while and then came to be known as Formula 1. Likewise the postwar voiturette formula which started as Formula B and became F2.

[fines]

Yes indeed, what's in a name? I've seen Formula A/B and I/II or 1/2 used almost simultaneously in contemporary sources, and it didn't bother me the slightest. But I would be interested to know if these terms were already envisaged for the 1941 season!

[Vitesse2]

Roger and David - I agree with you that this is at best arcane, at worst merely nitpicking, but are we not all in the business of making sure that the history of our sport is passed down to posterity in the best possible shape? We are discussing events of just fifty years ago, but already memories are fading and we have to rely increasingly on sparse printed sources. Surely it is of paramount importance to sort these little questions out before there is no-one left who can remember - just look at the 1939 European Championship!

And we are also well on the way to establishing that the published WDC tables for (at least) 1957 and 1958 are wrong - is that nitpicking, or setting the record straight? I would submit the latter - but without this forum and the medium for debate which it provides, would that have come to light at all?

Just my two penn'orth ....

[fines]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Formula A is now the highest form of National karting. the only level higher is the Formula Super A FIA World Championship. Is there any link between the end of car racing Formula A and the beginning of Kart Formula A, or is it just coincidence and lack of unique labeling

Remember, there was another Formula A (which, in turn, became F5000) in the sixties and seventies.

And why has your avatar stopped jumping around? Are you ill? Dying? Or worse, contemplating where to race next?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Roger and David - I agree with you that this is at best arcane, at worst merely nitpicking, but are we not all in the business of making sure that the history of our sport is passed down to posterity in the best possible shape? We are discussing events of just fifty years ago, but already memories are fading and we have to rely increasingly on sparse printed sources. Surely it is of paramount importance to sort these little questions out before there is no-one left who can remember - just look at the 1939 European Championship!

And we are also well on the way to establishing that the published WDC tables for (at least) 1957 and 1958 are wrong - is that nitpicking, or setting the record straight? I would submit the latter - but without this forum and the medium for debate which it provides, would that have come to light at all?

Just my two penn'orth ....

You may remember Denis Jenkinson's reaction when told that driver X had just got his first world championship point: "Really, what's he going to do with it?" What, I wonder, would be his reaction when told that X had just been awarded his first point 45 years after finishing sixth?

More seriously, these things are worth investigating and understanding. My real point was that it seems clear from the evidence presented that the FIA adopted the title Formula 1 late in 1947 and that the first Formula 1 race was in May 1948.

[Vitesse2]

Roger, I see your point about DSJ, but that would be not so much awarding a point as righting a wrong.

As to the main subject of the thread: yes, your assessment is very probably correct. But where then does that leave the contrasting (and wrong) statements from two highly respected historians (Cimarosti and Valledor) and the contemporary text from DSJ? This is what the research that we are carrying out seeks to highlight.

There are other matters which are being subjected to similar scrutiny - European Championships, the foundation of the AIACR and the change from AIACR to FIA to name but three.....

[David McKinney]

Vitesse2:
Perhaps I should have worded my post more carefully, Richard.
I meant no criticism of the efforts you guys are putting into getting to the bottom of the question. Merely that it's not a subject I personally lose sleep over.
Go for it!

[Vitesse2]

I don't lose sleep over it either, but when Hodges (1990) refers to "the Formula A that had been framed for 1941" and then Pritchard (1998) to "pre-war Formula A", it begins to worry me that within ten years or so these errors in popular histories may become accepted wisdom and be repeated in other works. How many future writers would take these statements as fact and not bother to check the source?

As far as Hodges is concerned, it looks like a sloppily drafted sentence - I know what he means, but it's not what it says. Pritchard, on the other hand, should know better!

"History repeats itself. Historians repeat each other." (Philip Guedalla)

[Allen Brown]

Vitesse2

Just to chip in, I know nothing of this period but I find your research fascinating - and very worthwhile for all the reasons you mention.

Keep it coming.

Allen

[Vitesse2]

Michael: I've never seen anything in British sources referring to a pre-war Formula A - "Grand Prix Formula" is the usual description.

So, if we accept that Formula 1 and 2 (or I and II) were official designations from Jan 1st 1948, that would appear to satisfy all original press sources (and even agree with the FIA site ). But it does mean that several respected published sources are most definitely wrong.

However, by extension from the above, it also appears that the designation "Formula A" applies only to 1947. That would mean that "Formula B" never existed, since it must have immediately become Formula 2!

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Vitesse2

Just to chip in, I know nothing of this period but I find your research fascinating - and very worthwhile for all the reasons you mention.

Keep it coming.

Allen

This is perhaps the real value of snipe hunts like this: it opens up doors to those who might not otherwise known much about this topic; and, it also provides a broader review of the literature than other might be done. It also clearly shows the reasons that secondary sources tend to avoided like the plague in other areas of history. But, it also shows that often some major elements of the "truth" can be mined from the exercise -- and that there might be some real surprises as well. Plus, it can give you some insight into the way that some viewed their world.

However, sometimes these exercises can really be snipe hunts since giving some sources more credibility than they are due might lead to some leaps that only lead from the top of a tall building to the sidewalk -- with the "one point" issue for 1957 and 1958 probably falling into this category. However, if you don't turn the rocks over or at least look under them, you'll never know.

I try to keep the thought running through my mind that history is not merely the collection of facts and data in able to establish a Truth (that is really 'science'), but that its purpose is to really tell the Story of an Event (however large or small) as accurately as possible and within the context of its times and the world (again, large or small) within which it existed. It is by its very nature not exact in some of its 'data' and therefore never quite the whole 'truth' -- the prisms through which events are viewed would make even the humble bumble bee dizzy....

[dmj]

Very OT, but why Plymouth choose "Formula S" as designation of some sporty Barracudas?

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by dmj
Very OT, but why Plymouth choose "Formula S" as designation of some sporty Barracudas?

S = Sports and the "Formula S" was just a marketing thing.

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Don Capps
It also clearly shows the reasons that secondary sources tend to avoided like the plague in other areas of history

Don

That's why I enjoy this thread so much. I am much happier staying with primary sources unless I know that the secondary sources have been truely rigorous in their approach. Vitesse2, Hans, Marc, Alessandro, Tony and Frank have approached this just the way a "real" historian would approach it and I salute that.

Allen

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


As to the main subject of the thread: yes, your assessment is very probably correct. But where then does that leave the contrasting (and wrong) statements from two highly respected historians (Cimarosti and Valledor) and the contemporary text from DSJ? This is what the research that we are carrying out seeks to highlight.

if we accept that Formula 1 was announced in late 1947 and effective from 1st January 1948, what do we have?

1947 [G.N. Georgano – Editor –: The Encyclopaedia of Motor Sport, 1971, Dennis Jenkinson: pg.19] In 1947 the A.I.A.C.R. was reconstituted and renamed Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile or FIA for short, and the international subcommittee or Commission Sportive Internationale (CSI) controlled the racing rules and drew up the various classes of racing to be held at international level. Red text is a wrong statement, compared to L’equipe of July, 1946. (Alessandro Silva, Nov. 1, 2001)

I can see nothing wrong with Jenkinson's statement. The FIA was formed in 1947 and its subcommittee announced the new Formula 1. I can see no conflict with L'Equipe which reported the regulations for 1947, provided the CSI was previously a subcommittee of the AIACR, which I believe to be the case.

1947 [Rodney Walkerley: Motor Racing, Facts & Figures, 1961, pg.88] 1947 The CSI of the FIA announced the new Grand Prix regulations for the period 1948-1953, intended to include the pre-war cars. Two Formulae were drawn up - Formula I, for supercharged cars with a cylinder volume of up to 1,500 cc, and un-supercharged up to 4½-litres, which, it was thought, would equalize the performances that had been so widely separated under the pre-war rules of 3-litres with supercharger and 4½-litres un-supercharged. There were no limitations as to weight, fuel or type of body, apart from the obligation to fit two full-sized rear mirrors. Red text makes a wrong statement, compared to L’equipe of June 22, 1946. (Alessandro Silva, Nov. 1, 2001)

Again, where is the conflict with L'Equipe?

FIA Under the title F1 Q & A, I (Hans.E.) found the following information (supplied by FIA) at the Forix site:
History QUESTION: How far back does Formula One go?
ANSWER: …Following the introduction of the first "formula" in 1904 by the FIA (which restricted maximum weight), categories were created for the smaller cars, but the name "Formula One" did not appear until 1948. The first Formula One race was at Pau on 29 March 1948 and was won by a Maserati. The FIA Formula One World Championship was created in 1950, and the first Formula One World Championship race was the British Grand Prix, at Silverstone on 13 May 1950. (Hans Etzrodt)

I'm not sure whether the FIA announced a formula in 1904, I thought it was individual race organisers in those days. However, the key point, that the first formula 1 race was Pau 1948 appears to be correct.

I hate to say it, knowing the people involved, but there seem to be as many errors in the corrections as in the souces being criticised. Or have I missed something important?

There is an interesting question regarding the formula for 1947 and whether the unsupercharged limit was 3-litres or 4.5. We know which limit did apply, as 4.5-litre cars ran in 1947 Grands Prix. The only quoted sources which mention the lower limit are The Motor March 27 1946 and Motor Sport, May 1946. Motor Sport mentioned that confirmation was to follow at another AIACR meeting in June. It seems possible that this meeting decided to change the limit to 4.5-litres, as explained in L'Equipe.

[Vitesse2]

Roger - apologies! As I pointed out above, this was selectively cut and pasted from a much larger document. The red text from DSJ is actually being contrasted with this quote from l'Equipe from July 4th 1946:

1946 Jul ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [L’equipe, July 4, 1946] AIACR changed their name to FIA. (Alessandro Silva)

This was to highlight Jenks' misuse of the title AIACR when referring to 1947!

The Walkerley quote is merely highlighted to point out that he makes it sound as though the decision was taken in 1947, not mid-1946.

The red text on the 1950 quote is probably undeserved now (and Hans has probably already done so!) - this was taken from a version of the list from November 2001.

As to the 1904 formula: the FIA sure as hell didn't exist in 1904, but here are two slightly contrasting quotes, with significantly different dates. As yet, we have not investigated primary sources for these (but we will!!)

1902 [Kent Karslake and Laurence Pomeroy: From Veteran to Vintage, 1956, pg. 154] ….. big cars whose weights were now up to 1,200 or 1,300 kg. “Sortes de locomotives’, M.Paul Meyan of La France Automobil called them contemptuously; and he went on calling them names like that until the Commission Sportive of the A.C.F. decided that in 1902 even the big cars would be subject to a weight limit of 1,000 kg, or 1007 kg. If fitted with one of these new-fangled magneto-electric machines. ….. (Hans Etzrodt)

1904 [Maurice A. Hammond: Motorcade – A Dictionary of Motoring History, 1966, page 29] The AC de France formed the Association of Recognized Automobile Clubs (AIACR) now the International Automobile Federation (FIA) as governing body of motor sport. Members were the National Automobile Clubs (governing bodies in their own countries). This body produced the first racing Formula, governing the Gordon Bennett races (maximum weight 1,000 kg – about one ton – plus 9 lb extra if a magneto was fitted; only the driver and riding mechanic to work on the car at any time).
Founder members were: Belgium, Austria, USA (AC of America, not American Automobile Association), Britain, Switzerland, Italy (AC of Turin), Germany. Later joined: Denmark, Egypt, Holland, Hungary, Portugal, Romania, Norway, Russia, Spain and Sweden. (Frank Verplanken)

Finally, much of the above has been added since we were last able to check and/or confirm any of it from primary sources. Much of the 1945-50 secondary material was added as a result of my and Tony's initial research. I have not checked Motor much past early 1946 and Autocar not at all for the period. Tony has done a pretty good job on Motor Sport, but we have not yet worked on the French magazines of the period either - we await Frank's next opportunity to do some archaeology! As I said, it is very much a work in progress ....

[Roger Clark]

I can see the difference between Jenkinson and the new (to me) L'Equipe quote (quote d'Equipe?) regarding when the AIACR was reconstitted as the fIA, but I thought the issue was the adoption of the term Formula 1. I still can't see any conflict between Walkerly and the facts as I understand them. THe CSI did announce the two formulae in 1947. THe fact that one was a continuation of the previous year's formula doesn't invalidate that.

Nor can I see much conflict between Pomeroy/Karslake and Hammond. THe former say that a subcommittee of the ACF made decisions regarding 1902, the latter says that by 1904 the newly formed AIACR made similar announcments. THe only difference I can see is Hammond's staement "this body produced produced the first racing formula", which may be true in the sense that it was the first internationally accepted formula.

[Vitesse2]

Roger:

As I pointed out, there are 49 pages of this stuff! The F1/FA bit is just a small part of several issues - all inter-related - pertaining to the period 1945-50.

As to 1904, we have uncovered quite a number of different interpretations/versions of the foundation of the AIACR, not to mention the foundation of the ACF in 1895. Much of this still essentially raw data, as it has not yet been analysed and dissected to pick the speculation from the fact. I highlighted the 1000kg formula merely to point out the discrepancy in dates - 1902 is actually correct, and this pre-dates the foundation of the AIACR by two years. This formula was actually in force until the end of 1906.

Rather than burden everyone with it, I have sent you a PM including a list of all the subjects which are being examined - both the above topics are part of much bigger pictures, as you will see!

[fines]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Rather than burden everyone with it, I have sent you a PM including a list of all the subjects which are being examined - both the above topics are part of much bigger pictures, as you will see!

Richard, would you please keep me up to date, too! Even if I don't have the time right now to follow all these discussions in detail, I'm very much interested in it being sorted out at all!

[fines]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
However, by extension from the above, it also appears that the designation "Formula A" applies only to 1947. That would mean that "Formula B" never existed, since it must have immediately become Formula 2!

Then how do you explain that Toni Ulmen was awarded with a certificate proclaiming him to be the German Champion of "Formula B Rennwagen" on Oct 2, 1949? I've seen this certificate in facsimile in "Der Motorsport" 20/49! It is signed by Konrad Adenauer, no less!

[fines]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
You may remember Denis Jenkinson's reaction when told that driver X had just got his first world championship point: "Really, what's he going to do with it?" What, I wonder, would be his reaction when told that X had just been awarded his first point 45 years after finishing sixth?

I don't care what Denis Jenkinson would have thought of it, I just want to put the record straight! And that means that Bob Gerard and Jimmy Reece deserve a place amongst the point scorers every bit as all the other 284 drivers!

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by fines

Then how do you explain that Toni Ulmen was awarded with a certificate proclaiming him to be the German Champion of "Formula B Rennwagen" on Oct 2, 1949? I've seen this certificate in facsimile in "Der Motorsport" 20/49! It is signed by Konrad Adenauer, no less!

Obviously I can't, Michael! Another anomoly ... perhaps ADAC called it Formula B, even though the FIA official name was Formula 2. This demonstrates perfectly the contradictions we keep finding.

Who knows: perhaps the FIA documentation differed in different languages? So many questions ... so few answers ...

I'll PM you later with some details of the work in progress.

[Wolf]

Richard- pls, add me to Your mailing list.

[Allen Brown]

Can I be on the mailing list too please. This is far too interesting!

Allen

[Vitesse2]

Okay - any more for any more?? I've also had PMs from Wolf, Mattijs and Roger for these!! I shall ask Hans for the latest update tonight and then forward it on to you all sometime on Sunday or Monday - beware, it's at least 50 pages in MSWord!

As Hans will shortly be winging his way to Europe, can I ask that you send any material which you might have to me to collate in his absence?

Wolf: I don't have your e-mail address, can you get it to me please?

[Don Capps]

If you would be so kind as to send me a copy as well, I would appreciate it: corktree@juno.com

[Wolf]

Richard- wolf@email.atlasf1.com . Thanks.

[Milan Fistonic]

I've just been given a handful of old "The Motor" magazines and they have the following references to Formula A and Formula 1.

The Motor, August 24, 1949

Prix de Leman (Formula B) to be run on Saturday August 27, day before the Formula A Grand Prix of Lausanne.


The Motor, August 16, 1950

Silverstone (August 26) Spectators' Guide

"Daily Express" International Trophy
(Formula A, 1.5-litres S, 4.5-litres U/s)


Dundrod Debut

Whitehead (Ferrari) wins first Formula 1 event over new Ulster circuit.

[Doug Nye]

As a novice newcomer to your Forum might I very much commend the vast majority of your contributors for their expertise and industry? Some of the contributions to this Formula A versus Formula 1 debate have been hugely impressive. But - and it's a big but - when it comes to quoting contemporary magazine reports I'm afraid nobody seems to have considered the prejudices and fallibility of the humble journalists who wrote for the specialist magazines and newspapers in question.

Rodney Walkerley of 'The Motor' was a good bloke, but old school, and when he'd once seen the premier Formula referred to in 'L'Equipe' as 'Formule A' he preferred that useage over the emerging - and in effect Anglicised - 'Formula 1'. Jenks very much admired Rodney's work - he always rated it as being far superior to 'that daft old duffer' Sammy Davis in 'The Autocar'.

You should appreciate that Jenks was in some ways very much an anorak. He decided that 'Formula A' and 'Formula B' was the correct, official, terminology and he stuck to them into 1951 at least, to rebel against 'snodgrass' calling it 'Formula 1' - 'snodgrass' being a catch-all derogatory reference to the superficial lightweight journalists he saw around him.

And yet, when he had gone to Pau for the 1949 Grand Prix there, he brought home the race programme. And on the 'Consignes de Course - Extraits du Reglement du Grand Prix Automobile' page - which I hope is self-explanatory, 'Extracts from the GP regulations' - Article 5 reads - if I might translate - "Eligible vehicles - The vehicles admitted will be of the Racing Category (Sporting Code of the FIA, annexe 6)" - then in French "correspondant a la formule internationale no 1" - which obviously translates as "...corresponding to the international formula no 1". DSJ chose to ignore this, and preferred the 'Formula A' phraseology which Rodney had used, although he was far from consistent in this. Even Homer nodded.

As for Rodney's 1950 Silverstone puff citing 'Formula A' - I would commend you to the 1950 British GP programme - which in part reads "Today, as a result of special postwar conditions there are recognised three Formulas, and you are to see races run under two of them. Pre-eminent, as the standard for all true Grands Prix is Formula 1. This states merely that to be eligible a car must have an engine of a capacity not exceeding 1,50c.c. if supercharged and 4,500 c.c. if unsupercharged...".

So - as you see - there was little common ground on 'A' or '1' it was through those formative postwar years a mater of personal prefercne, preference and useage - at least amongst the journalists, and even the very finest of that band...

Recently, the matter of precisely when the term 'Formula 1' was first applied became the core of some litigation between present Formula 1 authority and some American hopefuls.

I'm searching for still earlier 'official' reference and if I find some - either way - I'll be glad to let you know.

One final point - I have never seen any reliable contemporary evidence whatsoever that the proposed 1941-1943 Formula was officially referred to as 'Formula A' rather than as 'the Grand Prix Formula'.

DCN

[Michael Müller]

We had this topic already various times, the last one can be found here.
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=31437
I already was highly astonished that Hans didn't forced this thread further, but the reason is obvious now.

I would like to repeat a quotes from myself:

"Another theory is very simple. Isn’t it possible that the terms “A/B”, “I/II”, and “1/2” are simply based on the original FIA text using these terms as chapter or sentence descriptions? Example:
Motor racing is divided into the following technical formulas:
A: ........
B: ........
The following year another secretary was typing the text, believing that Roman digits look nicer, and the next year the the text was re-typed again by using 1 and 2 for the describing chapters. Very revolutionary theory, but who knows, may be we are discussing here the different typing layouts of some secretaries ...?

In order to find out the truth, or at least something which looks like the truth, I only can repeat: we need the original 1946 and 1947 announcements, and if I say “original” I mean original, no quotes by external writers."

I still believe that this is the only way to lift the secret.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Although I had hoped to stay in hibernation for a while longer, an event of great importance has occurred, which cannot be overlooked. The much admired Doug Nye –considered the epitome of present motoring writers– has graciously shared his wisdom with us dilettantes.

This is perceived in my waters as a great honor. A very warm welcome Aloha – shouting from the warm Pacific. May we hear more from your treasure chest, Doug.

[alessandro silva]

I have put down this note for Hans while going through L’Equipe late 47 early 48 last Saturday and was about to mail it to him when I discovered that the F1/FA issue is public again.

L’Equipe, October 17th, 1947.
CSI met yesterday in Paris to re-elect officials. Pérouse, Pres., Lord Howe, vice-pres. Board: 2 Belgians, 2 Brazilians, 2 Americans (USA), 2 French, 1 British, 2 Italians (Brivio-Canestrini), 2 Portuguese, 2 Swiss. De Knyff Hon. Pres.
Members of the board at large (no vote rights): one each from Austria, Hungary, Luxembourg (de Tornaco), the Netherlands, Yougoslavia, Roumania, Sweden, Czech.
The Formule Internationale 1 (F. I. 1) was extended up to 1953.
A new Formule Internationale 2 (F.I. 2) was decided with 500cc s/c engine or 2000cc atm. engines, same validity (up 1953).

A virulent attack by Charles Faroux on the latter decision follows: “We cannot believe to our eyes” taking a decided pro-Gordini stand.
Etc.

All this backs up my opinion on this matter – for what it is worth – that FA and FB never existed in official papers.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by alessandro silva
IAll this backs up my opinion on this matter – for what it is worth – that FA and FB never existed in official papers.

Alessandro: I've been tending towards a similar opinion myself and still think that Formula A is probably correct for 1947 only (see above). As Doug has pointed out, if certain journalists were continuing to use FA as a way of cocking a snook at their lesser rivals, then they could hardly be inconsistent to their own principles and call it Formula 2. And is it significant that Jenks changes his mind at the point where Formula 3 becomes a recognised international category? Even he must have realised that it would be flying in the face of reality to call it Formula C.

Slightly OT - when FOCA was formed, "Motoring News" insisted on the abbreviation F1CA, using the numeral 1, for several years.

[alessandro silva]

Richard,
my opinion is based also on the fact that for 1947 there was no need to distinguish between formulas: there was just ONE Formule Internationale.

[Vitesse2]

Is the text in brackets:

The Formule Internationale 1 (F. I. 1) ....
A new Formule Internationale 2 (F.I. 2) ...

exactly as published in L'Equipe? The F.I. 1/F.I. 2 nomenclature is something I can't recall having seen anywhere before. Certainly your point about Formule Internationale is well made and it was something I'd been trying to resolve for myself - having reminded myself that F2 came as a surprise to most observers at the time! I wonder BTW, what they expected instead?

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Vitesse2




Slightly OT - when FOCA was formed, "Motoring News" insisted on the abbreviation F1CA, using the numeral 1, for several years.

Surely everyone called it F1CA from its foundation in 1964 until the italians were forced to join under the Concorde agreement of 1982? Apparently 'fica' is a naughty word in italian. They have ignored the fact that 'foca' can be a very embarasing word when pronounced by an Irishman!

[David McKinney]

F1CA and FOCA were both originally pronouced "formula one constructors' association" - they were just easier ways of writing it. The pronunciation "foca" did not come till later. IIRC

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vitesse2




Slightly OT - when FOCA was formed, "Motoring News" insisted on the abbreviation F1CA, using the numeral 1, for several years.

The problem with this was the acronym when expressed in French or Italian.

[Hans Etzrodt]

The 1947 L’Equipe statement, which Alessandro brought to the table, also corresponds with what John Eason Gibson wrote in Motor Racing 1947, page 89, [published 1949] The following are the current regulations governing Racing Cars including the 1948-1953 International formulae and Sports Cars as defined in the International Sporting Code.
RACING CARS
Formula 1, (F.I. 1)………….
Formula 2, (F.I. 2)………….

Doug's illuminating analysis explains convincingly the origin of Formula A and B, leading to Rodney Walkerley as the culprit. This is indeed a very interesting concept. However, the present extracts in the history list don't show that Walkerley was the culprit. It could have been also Denis Jenkinson who spread the 'A/B Formula' virus. What do Walkerley's magazine articles reveal in 1947-1948? What is the earliest date when he wrote about Formula A and B? Richard? Doug? Anybody?

[Vitesse2]

A long time ago in this thread, the question came up regarding the initial upper limit for unblown cars in 1946. I am happy to say I have now found the answer!

All is revealed in an article by Grande Vitesse in the Motor, Jan 2nd 1946, called "Fumbling with the Formula?" and a piece by Overdrive in the Speed and Sport column in the same magazine, Dec 26th 1945.

It's very long, but it boils down to politics in the end! Surprisingly, the 1.5/4.5 litre limit was NOT proposed by the French, but by the BRITISH! The initial French proposal for 1946-47 was that the pre-War GP Formula should continue, at 3.0/4.5 litres: from 1948 they wanted 3.0 litres unblown, 1.5 litres blown, while the British wanted the higher unblown limit. On the face of it, I think you will agree that was VERY strange, since Britain had no suitable 4.5 litre cars, but was well-stocked with ERAs and had high hopes of the Altas, Challenger etc. The French, on the other hand, had lots of big lumbering 4.5 litre cars, but no voiturettes of any note. They also had a few blown 3 litre cars which could perhaps have been adapted to run unblown. Grande Vitesse has no details as to what the third main protagonists, the Italians, would have thought, but obviously with the hordes of blown Maseratis and Alfas they had available they really couldn't have given a damn about the unblown limit!

The clincher, however, was the second French proposal - in both periods they wanted the cars limited to a control fuel of 100 octane, supplied by the organizers. Now that's all fine and dandy for an unblown engine, but for a high-revving supercharged Alfa or ERA? GV reckoned that it would reduce the output of the ERAs by 75bhp and 50mph and leave them totally uncompetitive with the Talbots and Delahayes, which would suffer very little loss of performance.

The Formula was announced on February 28th 1946, initially as 1.5/3.0 litres. There must have been one hell of a stink raised by the French manufacturers over this, since by July 24th 1946 GV was reporting that:

The Delahaye concern, and others now constructing 4.5 litre machinery, have not been beating the wind, having evidently first ascertained which way this was blowing. Maximum size for unsupercharged engines has now been raised to 4.5 litres again.

So it would appear that the 1.5/4.5 limit was a bit of a compromise - the French gave up the control fuels, but later accepted the higher limit on unblown cars, which was perhaps what they had always wanted as a fallback position anyway - maybe they felt there was a danger that unblown cars would be banned completely?

ps The Motor was still referring to "Formula B" in 1949 ....