65 replies to this topic

[Melbourne Park]

How much oil should an engine use?

I have been looking at cars for my wife, and narrowed choices to most likely a second hand BMW small six (2.2 or 2.5 litre) or a new GMHolden Monaro with the LS1 engine. Both automatics.

However I discovered that in Australia, a whole lot of the LS1 engines have had huge oil consumption issues, and oil pump failures. Evidently the oil pumps can fail due to G force issues, and no doubt a design issue.

But also and much more significantly many engines drink large quantities of oil. Dealers are reticent to fix the problem.

Dealers say about high oil consumption: "That's normal".

The cure is to re-bore the blocks, as the cylinders are typically out of round. There has even been special psiton rings supplied for repair, which are also out of round, which does not sound like a worthwhile fix to me.

If engines are burning 2.5 litres of oil in 5000km, wouldn't that oil alter the pollution standards of the engine? And wouldn't oil burning alter the life and effectiveness of the catalytic converter?

It seems this problem is not only effecting Australian LS1s, but BMW M3 engines have issues too:
http://forums.roadfl...47.html <br />

I like the LS1 motor in the Monaro, but if the engine's no good, what's the point?

And how much oil should an engine consume?

[AdamLarnachJr]

Yes I've heard much the same about LS1's, the problems seem to be more pronounced on the Corvette models than the F-body's, and theres nothing like a $50,000 oil burner.

The motor's are awesome though, if you get one without an oil problem, which are most likely the new ones since GM went to a newer block that relieves pressures, as well as new sealing methods and a thicker cylinder sleeve should any problems arise later on. The earlier LS1 engines before 2k didn't have enough sleeving left to facilitate any rebuilds, so you either had to resleeve the block (fun and pricey:)) or buy a new one from GM (pricey).

All but one of the vehicles I have, 88 Ford Bronco (351W V8), 90 Ford Ranger (2litre I4), 95 Chevrolet Suburban (350 V8) consume oil in large quantities, with the exception of the Chevrolet. The Bronco eats up about a quart every week, the cats have over 190,000 miles on them, yet it just passed smog with flying colors, most test were 1/2% of national average, and thats with a big V8!

I would assume that GM has pretty much nailed the problem with the new run of LS1's, they are becoming more refined every year even though you can't really tell the differences, GM is taking considerable steps to perfect this engine, hopefully it will be the new mainstay of the SBC whereas the LT1/TBI/TPI was more of a skimp by for emmisions than a new platform.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by AdamLarnachJr
....

I would assume that GM has pretty much nailed the problem with the new run of LS1's, they are becoming more refined every year even though you can't really tell the differences, GM is taking considerable steps to perfect this engine, hopefully it will be the new mainstay of the SBC whereas the LT1/TBI/TPI was more of a skimp by for emmisions than a new platform.

On the net in Australia some of those with problems have said that maybe Australia gets the rejected LS1s.

I wonder how one could find out what motors Australia is getting ...

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by AdamLarnachJr
Yes I've heard much the same about LS1's ...

The earlier LS1 engines before 2k didn't have enough sleeving left to facilitate any rebuilds, so you either had to resleeve the block (fun and pricey:)) or buy a new one from GM (pricey).

...

I would assume that GM has pretty much nailed the problem with the new run of LS1's, they are becoming more refined every year even though you can't really tell the differences, GM is taking considerable steps to perfect this engine, hopefully it will be the new mainstay of the SBC whereas the LT1/TBI/TPI was more of a skimp by for emmisions than a new platform.

It seems the problem is not solved in Australia: I would imagine this engine is made after 2k, here is a comment from an Australian LS1 user:

My series 2 VX SS which is a september 2001 build started using oil after the 10000km service, in just under 2000km the oil was below add so I went to the dealer, they started an oil consumtion test after adding 0.7 litre. But before Ihave done even another 2000km the dealer wants the car in to investigate the motor and probably replace the block. It appears everything is ready to go as I'll have the car back within a week. Might be holden is concerned about a series 2 having the problem when they thought it was fixed.
I'll keep the details posted as they come to hand.

[TOLIN]

Probably I am taking peanuts but...
In the Danish market there exists one of the "ugliest" cars in the world which is Citroen.
A normal citroen will consume about a liter every 2000 kms. That is huge!!!
But other cars are not as consuming as...
The oil can be:
a)burn in the compression chamber together with the fuel
b)carried out by the exhaust air
c)Drained in a car leak!;)
d)Consumed by mechanical wear.

This then means that a tighter, better designed engine, will consume less oil and by consequence of a good design, will be a more efficient engine.!


Then you can draw your own conclusions.

[Melbourne Park]

Our two current vehicles, a 100,000km Toyota SUV with a 3.4 litre V6 and an MX/5 Miata with 50km, both use apparently no oil between 10,000 km services.

[Zoe]

A certain oil consumption is normal for an engine. If an engine with quite a few miles on it doesn't use any oil at all, I would be on alert. Maybe there is a leak and the oil level is kept constant by something else than oil (fuel or water), which is bad bad bad.

Tolin: You are aware that there is a huge Citroen fan community out there who love their Citroens religiously? And you probably know there are a lot of different models as well? If you refer to the 2CV (4CV), Diane or Ami I fully agree; later models like XM etc. are quite a different story though!

Zoe

[tedmna]

Cheers MP!

Oil consumption problems sound chillingly familiar to me, as do oil pump problems. What is that expression about the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Most of the small-block oil consumption problems we saw were due to either poor build quality or overheating (mostly due to drag-racing or--here comes brian glover ;) --autox'ing.) Build quality problems aren't cheaply resolved, but overheating can be held at bay by buying a car with a heavy duty radiator, or installing a better aftermarket unit.

[30ft penguin]

Originally posted by Zoe
A certain oil consumption is normal for an engine. If an engine with quite a few miles on it doesn't use any oil at all, I would be on alert. Maybe there is a leak and the oil level is kept constant by something else than oil (fuel or water), which is bad bad bad.

Hm. All of my cars so far (nothing special - first a Ford Fiesta Diesel, then an Audi 80 1.8S, now an Opel Astra 1.6i) used absolutely no oil between the service intervals (10.000km for the Ford and the Audi, 15.000km for the Opel). I drove the Ford for 90.000km, the Audi for 200.000 and the Opel has 45.000 by now. Normal traffic to/from work and the occasional holiday (e.g. trip to Scotland and back for 5.000 km). The only time I had to refill oil was after a holiday at the North Sea for which I had to practically drive from the south end of Germany to the north end via the Autobahn - several hours at max speed

For the "standard" engines, using no oil (or better: so little you can make it from service to service without refilling) is pretty normal, I think.

[desmo]

My Honda and Toyota both seem to consume minimal oil in normal use, the Honda about 1/4l per 5000km and the Toyauto almost none at all. I've had cars that consumed a fair amount of oil even though they pass compression and leak down tests with flying colors. I had a Mercedes with significant oil consumption (1l per 5000km) but new valve guides fixed that. Wasn't too expensive, but I took the head off myself and took it to the machine shop to have new ones pressed in. The good news was that at 200,000km the rings/cylinders and valve seats were looking great, it was just the guides. I still see that car around town and it must have at least 300,000km on it by now, seems to still be running fine. It seems to me that a good engine design well cared for nowadays is just getting broken in at 100,000 or even 150,000km.

[DEVO]

My Integra GS-R just started to consume some oil but nothing major... I have 100K miles on it. My S2000 doesn't consume that much if any. I use Mobil 1 for the S2000, maybe that helps. On the Integra I use a tri-blend oil from Mobil. I change the oil every 3500 miles and most times the dip stick level doesn't budge. When it does, it's under a half of quart.

[Yelnats]

Originally posted by 30ft penguin
Hm. All of my cars so far (nothing special - first a Ford Fiesta Diesel, then an Audi 80 1.8S, now an Opel Astra 1.6i) used absolutely no oil between the service intervals (10.000km for the Ford and the Audi, 15.000km for the Opel). I drove the Ford for 90.000km, the Audi for 200.000 and the Opel has 45.000 by now. Normal traffic to/from work and the occasional holiday (e.g. trip to Scotland and back for 5.000 km). The only time I had to refill oil was after a holiday at the North Sea for which I had to practically drive from the south end of Germany to the north end via the Autobahn - several hours at max speed

For the "standard" engines, using no oil (or better: so little you can make it from service to service without refilling) is pretty normal, I think.

All engines use oil! It's just a case of how much.

If the rings were to scrape all the oil from the cylinder walls they would be running metal to metal which is not good. A small oil film is left behind on the cylinder walls with each stroke and most of this is burned or so severly oxidized that it no longer qualifies as oil. Thats why the colour of your oil will darken between changes. That brown stuff in there ain't oil! It's a mixture of oxidised oil, burnt combustion products, unburnt fuel and condensation. This junk tops up the level after all the real oil has burnt giving one the impression that no oil has been burned.

[Melbourne Park]

OK, I know engines use oil.

But if some engines use a lot, doesn't that mean they are a crap engine?

Look at some things in Australia GM V8 LS1 users are saying:

VXClubsportR8
LS1.COM Junior Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 21

where's the oil going then? Never seen it on the ground, never seen it in the mirror and it sure isn't on the dipstick...
__________________
Stunning Storm VX Clubsport R8

Craig VXSS
LS1.COM Member

Registered: Oct 2001
Location: East Doncaster, VIC
Posts: 202

My car uses average of 1ltr per 1000k's and I never see it either, never on the ground, under WOT people say it spits a bit of smoke out but nothing more than usual, I do have oil residue before the butterfly in the throttle body aswell. Have seen a few spits on my engine covers too???
__________________
2001 VX SS
213.9rwkw


Zer0123
LS1.COM Junior Member

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2

Well, I resently got my car back from a city dealership in melbourne....... I first complained of high oil usage after 6000 kms, and finally after 30,000km they got authorisation to rebuild the engine- it was using 4l/10,000km and pinging serverly above 3500revs. A couple of days later they call me to say, "sorry, we are unable to rebuild your engine, it's totally ******" oval bores etc... so they fitted the latest revision gen 3 and away i go again.... wonder how long this time




VXClubsportR8
LS1.COM Junior Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 21

Good luck Zer0123... Keep us posted how it goes. Apparently we have a really good case if the motor fails again under the Aussies equivalent to the lemon clause. Also if more than one thing fails at once...
__________________
Stunning Storm VX Clubsport R8



Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2

lol, yeah had the car 5 months now(32,000k); if it wasn't a company car i'd be really pi$$ed. I also suffered the weird rattling noise; assumed to be the engine cover, but was under the car somewhere..... now have a suspect clutch/diff problem with clunking and vibration on takeoffs.... fun&games I think this dealership has had "ALOT" experience with gen3 rebuilds... not sure how many people have had a complete "engine replacement" thou??


__________________
VX-SS M6, PhantomMica (2nd engine!)


VXClubsportR8
LS1.COM Junior Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 21

Official word from Holden Customer Assistance Rep Joe Hong in relation to getting some money back was "Holden is not entering into any negotiations. Your block will be there tomorrow and your engine will be rebuilt."

__________________
Stunning Storm VX Clubsport R8




Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Canberra Australia
Posts: 6


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by VXClubsportR8
How long has your's been in there? It's probably the 4th confirmed kill for Canberra then unless it was in there before the 14th Jan. Parts are not readily available. It took over two weeks to order the pistons and rings and another week or so to find out they needed a whole new block which had to be sourced from the states.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


My SS is not in yet. It went in for assessment on 14 Jan to Gerald Slaven as well. I'm waiting for the other one to be finished before they take mine in. Therefore still driving it, works fine, just noisy and suckin' oil- booked in for 11 Mar.

__________________
VX SS
Auto
Phantom Mica
Cat Back Exhaust




Registered: Jan 2002
Location: sydney autralia
Posts: 13


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mr.Senator140
You guys are farked when your cars come out of warranty, driving around all paranoid on wether it's going to start swalowing oil again, or **** a oil pump and sieze, who's got around $9,000 for a engine rebuild spare because chev done a **** job on the engine and holden were even stupider to use them, I swear holden must be getting all the seconds from chev.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

if you had bought your car payed 40 or more grand for it then 12.5thousand later the engine was out youd be saying the same thing so dont give me this **** about complaining us guys just want to drive our cars like we were sposed to

__________________
bubba




Registered: Jan 2002
Location: sydney autralia
Posts: 13


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ZACSS


My SS is not in yet. It went in for assessment on 14 Jan to Gerald Slaven as well. I'm waiting for the other one to be finished before they take mine in. Therefore still driving it, works fine, just noisy and suckin' oil- booked in for 11 Mar.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

it suck having to wait in line i had to wait 4 weeks wile they were waiting for engine bearings as nil in aus




__________________
bubba



Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Sydney, NSW Australia
Posts: 4432


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by VXClubsportR8
Good luck Zer0123... Keep us posted how it goes. Apparently we have a really good case if the motor fails again under the Aussies equivalent to the lemon clause. Also if more than one thing fails at once...
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Aussies equivalent to the lemon clause

interesting whats this ?



Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Sydney, NSW Australia
Posts: 4432


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Zer0123
I also suffered the weird rattling noise; assumed to be the engine cover, but was under the car somewhere..... now have a suspect clutch/diff problem with clunking and vibration on takeoffs....
------------------------------------------------------------------------


that sounds like it might be the front flexible joint on the propellar shaft.




Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Sydney Sutherland shire Australia
Posts: 1871

channel 7 sydney current affair were asking for stories they can look at tonight. submit by phone or internet !! how many unhappy motor do we have to run with here ?




Registered: Oct 2001
Location: East Doncaster, VIC
Posts: 202

Mine's is also on hold from getting done cause the parts aren't available.

They told me they are waiting for rings, bearings and pistons.?.?.?

There is 3 cars waiting to be done after mine, mine is a priority due to the oil light and amount of oil used.


__________________
2001 VX SS
213.9rwkw


Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 21

Sorry ZacSS... mines out of Geralds in the next week or so. someone else must be holding you up. Not that I actually want it back... but that's another story...

As for the equivalent lemon clause... I'll let you know monday after my ten o'clock appointment... Unless of course the car is back by then or we've come to some other agreement...

They are trying... It just should not have ever happened...

There's a whole lot on this site. But some dealers have said that 1 litre per 1000km is OK. I think one litre having to be added in 10,000km is too much; what will happen whenthe engine gets old?

When can an owner say: its using too much oil, its no good, and the dealer respond by fixing it?

Seems to me if I buy a Monaro, with the Corvette LS1 engine, I risk buying a lemon.

And the car will depreciate like heck if there are lemons sold.

The LS1 seems to be a **** engine from what these posters who've bought new cars have to say ...

[BRIAN GLOVER]

What, you still havent bought a car yet? I thought that you had already made a decision and it was the Holden. I have had 10 Vettes and I dont remember oil consumption being a problem on any. I have a 2000 Silverado bought in mid 99. It has the 5.3 aluminum LS1. It has 67g miles and I leave the oil in for about 10 000 miles. My wife had a Tahoe with the same engine that towed huge loads all the time. Dont remember ever putting oil in them between changes. I'm not one of these every3000m oil change guys. That Mobil 1 is good stuff. I had 3 LT1 Vettes that didnt use oil. I changed oil more frequently because of iron blocks. A 97 LS1 that has 100 000 miles on it now. Mostly punishing driving as the guy I sold it to is also a lunitic. A 99 hard top that lasted 3 months until I ran it under a truck and totalled it. I had a 01 ZO6 and now a 02 Z06 that only knows extreme driving. It has 6000 miles and one change at 2000m. I over filled it slightly and it is still a little over. Maybe I'm lucky. These engines have teflon coated pistons and the only things that require break in, are rear axle and brakes.
Maybe we send the reject LS1s to Australia. You do run them upside down though. That could be the problem.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Melbourne Park
[B]How much oil should an engine use?

However I discovered that in Australia, a whole lot of the LS1 engines have had huge oil consumption issues, and oil pump failures. Evidently the oil pumps can fail due to G force issues, and no doubt a design issue.

[Melbourne Park]

Thanks Brian.

We still haven't decided on what to get; the Monaro is our favourite, but I am concerned about reliability. As to the nicest car, it is that. But a second hand BMW 323Ci coupe will have already depreciated, so in the longer term it would cost us less. Although its much slower, I am concerned about various stories about bad LS1 engines, even in some recent Commodores. We are not used to anything going wrong with a car. We had expected the same of a Commodore. We drove a V6 (Buick 3.8) model for 6 weeks last year, and although it had 43000 km on it, the car felt like new. I had thought that Holden's quality was, as has been reported, getting better and better. And that car indicated that.

But on the net I found that the LS1 motor has caused problems. People who've had problems have said that they don't believe the Monaro would get a poor engine. But I am not currently sure what is going on.

Thanks for the feedback.

I wonder what Chui would say, as he I think he was on the development team for the engine.

We won't make up our minds for a couple of weeks yet, as we are both flat out with other things at the moment. I will speak to the dealers about it, after I have done some research. I also have a neighbour who is one of the top GMH development engineers, I'll ask him his view as well. I'll also get some warranties about oil consumption; since I am concerned about it, I want something in writing that says if the engine uses more than x amount of oil per 10,000km, then they'll fix it. Adn provide a car for us in the meantime. One shouldn't have to worry about such an issue with a new car, but after reading of various troubles, I'd rather worry now rather than worry after we'd bought the car ...

[AdamLarnachJr]

Their toilets flush backwards... sheez, they have Christmas in Summer too... I tell ya completley backwards these guys:P jk

[BRIAN GLOVER]

I think that the LS6 engines in the Vette are blue -printed compared to other LS1s. They do run really hot. In autoX , 260' f is not uncommon. The heads stay around 100'f. Apparently, this is normal and Mobil 1 likes it. LT1s(92-96) and LS1s and 6s have gear driven water pumps and deliver coolant to the heads first and superheat the block afterwoulds before being being pumped back to the radiator. If you dont use Mobil 1, the engine will let go. The LT1( second generation small block Chevy, not to be confused with the LT1 of 1970 solid lifter engines) gained 50hp, just by this method of cooling over the L98 engine of 91.

Originally posted by tedmna
Cheers MP!

Most of the small-block oil consumption problems we saw were due to either poor build quality or overheating (mostly due to drag-racing or--here comes brian glover ;) --autox'ing.) Build quality problems aren't cheaply resolved, but overheating can be held at bay by buying a car with a heavy duty radiator, or installing a better aftermarket unit.

[BRIAN GLOVER]

Ill talk to my partner in South Africa tomorrow. They have had the Holden Commodore on their market for about a year. They call it a Chevrolet Lumina. I'll be able to tell you about any problems that they are having there in a day or 2. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Thanks [b]Brian.

[Chui]

Gleaned from http://www.c5registry.com

Issues: Oil Consumption

A hot topic amongst C5 Corvette [current car] owners, especially those active on the Internet, is high oil consumption by LS1 and LS6 engines. We asked Chief Engineer John Juriga [my ex-supervisor] about this and, in this exclusive to the C5 Registry On-Line and the C5 Registry Newsletter, he confirmed there’s a problem, but not one as widespread as some people believe. He also explained the fix GM Powertrain has developed for it.

"We have seen a greater percentage of complaints than we’d like about oil consumption," John admitted. "The condition under which we get that oil consumption is high-rpm, light-load–like if you drive in a city schedule but never take the car out of second gear. In that situation, the piston rings can get into a flutter condition and that’s when the oil consumption takes place."

Piston ring seal depends on a balance of four forces: combustion pressure, ring inertia, the ring’s radial expansion pressure and crankcase pressure. Ring flutter is uncontrolled oscillation due to an imbalance of those forces. Once a piston’s rings go into flutter, their ability to scrape oil off the cylinder wall as the piston moves downward is impaired, blow-by increases and oil consumption rises dramatically.

The combination of high rpm and the low crankcase pressure typical of low engine loads causes those four forces to become imbalanced. The small amount of LS1s and LS6es that see regular, high-rpm, light-load operation may suffer high oil consumption.

"The severity of this problem is specific to the driver," Juriga continued. "You can take a car that is a major complaint for one customer and give it to another customer who’ll have (different driving habits and) no complaints and get 5000 miles to a quart."

The common sense is that high-speed and light-load is not a duty cycle typical of normal use, even for an engine in a car like a Corvette. Who drives around town running 4000 or more rpm at part-throttle?

"It’s not the way most people normally drive," John agreed, "so it has not been a substantial part of our normal durability schedule.

"It is a substantial part of our schedule, now.

"This particular problem is not something you see as a wear issue, either. You can tear apart the engine and find nothing. In fact, that’s why it was so difficult. Someone says, ‘I have an oil consumption problem.’ We give the car to our guys who put a thousand miles on it and oil consumption is within limits. When we drive it aggressively, but in a more conventional manner, there’s no problem. We tear down the engine, everything looks fine–no wear, no scored bores, no ring gap alignment problem, nothing to explain the oil consumption.

"This issue has become very pronounced on the Internet. People are saying, ‘Oh–we’ve got a problem with oil consumption.’ but the vast majority of customers don’t have any problem. There are a few who drive like that–and they’re entitled to, that’s why they buy a Corvette. They are the ones that have trouble and we want to try to help them."

Internet conspiracy theories, urban legend and rumor mutate and spread rapidly. While the core issue might have factual basis, it quickly becomes exaggerated and laced with disinformation. To objectively verify a problem like this and develop, then test a successful fix is difficult and time consuming. This is why General Motors has seemed slow to respond.

GMPT contacted customers experiencing the problem. This group was asked specific questions about driving habits. Once GM acquired data pointing at the difficulty, the second task was to devise a test schedule that could be run under controlled conditions and would include some high-speed, light-load operation. Once GM did that, then tore down engines and found no wear, materials or assembly trouble; ring-flutter-driven, oil consumption was identified as the cause.

"We went back to our ring supplier and worked with them in developing a fix," Juriga explained. "We are going to change the ring pack. We’ll use a higher tension oil ring. We go from a nine pound ring to a 13 pound ring. We’ll also change the second compression ring to a ‘Napier ring’ design which has a very pronounced scraper profile on it. The current second ring uses a conventional oil scraper design.

"We’re going to get that done for the start of production (MY02) on LS6 and within a couple weeks afterwards, it will go into the LS1, so it will be across-the-board on both."


This revised ring pack was validated in-part by field use of replacement rings in engines having trouble with high oil consumption under high-rpm/light-load. The increased oil ring tension keeps the four forces mentioned earlier in balance so oil ring flutter is eliminated. While the ’97-’01 second ring had a scraper face, the Napier ring is quite different and results in more aggressive oil control on the piston down stroke.

"We’ve had over a dozen customers with complaint vehicles," John Juriga stated. "We put these rings in and it’s a ‘clean kill.’ It takes customers who are aggressive drivers and who had oil consumption as low as 500-800 miles per quart up to 1500-2000 miles a quart.

"This fix is not out in the service organization at this point. It goes through our technical assistance network on a case-by-case basis. We’re getting these rings out that way because (at this writing) they’re very hard to get. We are going to make up some piston assemblies for service. The way these pistons come into the (engine) plant from Mahle (piston supplier for Gen III engines), they’re already fitted with rings. We’re trying to decide whether to have dealers install the rings on the pistons or supply piston assemblies that include the revised rings. Once we get that resolved and have required amount of parts in the pipeline; we’ll make them available through service channels, I hope in about 4-6 weeks." (at this writing, that’s late-July or early-August).

"It's on a case-by-case basis because, with some customers, all you have to do is tell them, 'You can eliminate your problem if you throw it into third or fourth gear instead of riding it in second.' They’ll be happy to do that and the problem goes away.

"Other customers say, 'No. That’s why I bought my 'Vette. I’m gonna drive it the way I wanna drive it.' If so, that’s fine. If you’re getting 500-800 miles per quart, that’s too much and we’re going to swap the rings out in that engine."

The revised ring package will not increase an engine’s performance. If your engine is not experiencing excessive oil use, there’s no advantage in running out to get new rings. Even if you do have an engine that experiences abnormal oil use due to high-rpm/light-load operation; you’re better off modifying your driving habits than going through the trauma of a partial engine overhaul under warranty. If eliminating most high-rpm/light-load operation doesn’t stop excessive oil use, then ask GM to repair the engine.

Some people involved in the public dialog about this issue have been highly critical of General Motors. Some of the harsh words are unfounded because this problem is not as common as Internet rumor claims. Additionally, it is clear to this writer that, while GM may erred in not making high-rpm/light-load testing as prominent as it should have been, a small group of owners, because of their unusual driving habits, have to share some of the responsibility for this problem.

Going to a higher tension oil ring and a Napier profile second ring solves the oil use problem convincingly. Will the change also result in oil consumption decreases in LS1s and LS6es which are driven normally or driven aggressively, but not in the high-rpm/light-load manner that previously caused ring flutter? There is that possibility.


Hope this addresses some of the concerns.

[Chui]

"The LT1( second generation small block Chevy, not to be confused with the LT1 of 1970 solid lifter engines) gained 50 bhp, just by this method of cooling over the L98 engine of '91."

Not true, Brian. The reverse flow cooling did nothing for the car. The claims were made from a purely theoretical perspective. Period. No data supported the claims. Or at least no additional data taken would support the mysterious claims. The 50 bhp was also due to many things. Not the least of which was the reduction in friction, different cams and higher engine red line. There is also the issues of spark scatter with the ABITS [Angle-Based Ignition Timing System] - I think Marketing opted for the euphemistic term of "Optifire" - and water pump cavitation at 5,000 + rpm.

Liberally apply Loctite to the spline of the ABITS system into it's D slot [or did we finalize a star pattern?] and you remedy the spark scatter issues. Water intrusion was/is another matter... The first series of cars were recalled due to the ignition system [water intrusion, primarily].

Outside of those issues the engine was pretty much bullet-proof as I recall.

[AdamLarnachJr]

Didn't GM use the CAGS system to defeat the method of driving around town in anything higher than 4th? The solenoid automatically engages 4th gear when driving around town, of course you can buy a bypass module for like $30, but most of the quasi Vette and Camaro owners, at least around here... all friggen convertables for crying out loud... couldn't tell the difference between a solenoid and the lump under their hood. Thus, the CAGS system would remain intact and working properly, so it should, as described by GM, prevent anyone from driving in a high gear with a light load.

[Melbourne Park]

Chui thanks.

This does not address the out of round issues in Australia though.

Evidently people have to wait for a replacement block ...?

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by Chui
Gleaned from http://www.c5registry.com

"The severity of this problem is specific to the driver," Juriga continued. " ... We give the car to our guys who put a thousand miles on it and oil consumption is within limits. "

How does one find what those oil limits are?

[tedmna]

Originally posted by Chui
Gleaned from http://www.c5registry.com

Issues: Oil Consumption

The revised ring package will not increase an engine’s performance. If your engine is not experiencing excessive oil use, there’s no advantage in running out to get new rings. Even if you do have an engine that experiences abnormal oil use due to high-rpm/light-load operation; you’re better off modifying your driving habits than going through the trauma of a partial engine overhaul under warranty. If eliminating most high-rpm/light-load operation doesn’t stop excessive oil use, then ask GM to repair the engine.

This may be true, but reading between the lines:

1) "Light load/high rpm testing wasn't completed because we ran out of time and/or money."
This is not an attempt to be critical of or cynical about GM. This is a fact of life in manufacturing and testing anything, and I'm sure they felt that few people would drive the car in those conditions, so why spend the money, just apply good engineering judgment. Their judgement didn't work out under real world conditions, unfortunately.

I remember being at the Proving Grounds in July, and observing emission certification tests for a Corvette model that was going into production in 2-3 weeks! Talk about last minute!

Another observation is that of course GM don't want you to warranty a car. It would cost them a lot to warranty, so "if you would change your driving style" the problem is solved at no cost to them. At this point I am being cynical. What a joke.

2) There's more wrong with the engine than just piston rings, and it's not a design problem. Build problems with production small blocks goes back for decades. It's disappointing to hear that in the last fifteen years it still crops up as an issue. If there's a problem with Corvettes there's certainly going to be problems with Holdens.

We literally returned virtually the whole engine we received in Vettes from Bowling Green--few parts were usable for a decent street engine much less a high performance version.

Good quality requires the right mindset or philosophy, not just tight spec's and the right inspection equipment. A Corvette example: Don Johnson--at the time a hot actor in Miami Mice--received a special Corvette from GM as payment for doing an anti-drug film for GM for distribution to high schools. It got shipped to us for modification before delivery to the dealer. Understand this was a special build car, with non-standard paint and interior, and inside the body panels were the signatures of all the GM employees who had built the car. Most importantly, it had a special handling package which required a unique wheel for each corner of the car--the wheels were directional and wider in the rear. Anyway we received the car and we immediately noticed something was wrong: right hand side wheels were mounted on both sides of the car! We swapped the wheels out for mags, so DJ never knew, but the bottom line is here is a special build car that was built for a high-profile celebrity, signed--out of pride, one would think--by the workers who built the car, inspected, one hopes, before leaving the factory, that had incorrect parts installed. This may have been the result of an individuals attempt at non-lethal sabotage, but why didn't inspectors pick it up? It was obvious to us before the car was even brought off the truck!

Look, GM's not the only company that struggles with quality issues, and has to make production trade-offs. But what MP's mentioned about Holden's may indicate there are still problems.

BTW, we dynoed small blocks with reverse coolant flow in '85-'87, as well as with the Evan's waterless system, and found no performance gains at all.

[imaginesix]

Originally posted by Chui
[/COLOR]
...
Liberally apply Loctite to the spline of the ABITS system into it's D slot [or did we finalize a star pattern?] and you remedy the spark scatter issues. Water intrusion was/is another matter... The first series of cars were recalled due to the ignition system [water intrusion, primarily].

Outside of those issues the engine was pretty much bullet-proof as I recall. [/B]

Hi chui.

Can you tell me how one would determine whether or not he had the ABITS system, or the early ignition system with water intrusion problems? I know someone with some late model Camaros and Firebirds who has had problems on some with water intrusion into the distributor. Also, what is the prescribed remedy?

If you have any links to direct me to, thay would be great too.

Thanks.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by tedmna


... but reading between the lines:

...

2) There's more wrong with the engine than just piston rings, and it's not a design problem. Build problems with production small blocks goes back for decades. It's disappointing to hear that in the last fifteen years it still crops up as an issue. If there's a problem with Corvettes there's certainly going to be problems with Holdens.

We literally returned virtually the whole engine we received in Vettes from Bowling Green--few parts were usable for a decent street engine much less a high performance version.

Good quality requires the right mindset or philosophy, not just tight spec's and the right inspection equipment....

As tedma states, there are still other issues with quality.

There is a difference between quality and design. While Chui reported some design issues and prospective solutions for manufacturing and also ring replacement programs, those reports were based upon a design fault.

However the out of round cyclinders is a quality issue I would have thought.

In Melbourne we have three auto firms who manufacture engines in Melbourne: GM, who manufacture 4 cyclinder engines for mostly European Opels, but also other firms around the world; Toyota who manufacture 4 cylinder engines for local Camry sales; they also assemble Japanese V6s - I think, they may be fully built - for local and Camry V6 export sales (Toyota is the largest auto exporter, exporting close to 40,000 Camry vehicles); and then there is Ford, who manufacture straight 6 cylinder engines for their Falcon front engine rear drive car. A few year ago Ford's six went way up in horsepower. The reason for the increase, was because Ford bought a second hand plant from BMW for manufacturing their six cylinder engines. The tolerances were so much better, Ford for no extra cost per unit except depreciation, could make much more efficient engines.

Evidently GM spent $US1 billlion on their LS1 engine; yet they don't know how to make it properly. I am in the machinery business, and I find this kind of poor manufacturing difficult to understand. It does not say much good about GM's capabilities.

Curiously Ford here have a different attitude. They have a low tech V8 at the moment; it runs at about 170kw, compared to the LS1's starting point here of 225kw or about 300HP. So what Ford do is stripped down the engines, bore them, sleeve them to 5.6 litres, balance them while they're at it and the result is not only over 200kw but a whole lot of low down torque and a wonderfull sound. Worse fuel economy though. But the real point is, those engines are reliable.

And there is not doubt that the GM engines are not reliable. Here are just a couple of local comments. These are real people with real problems:

That's really good information Melbourne Park, good stuff..

If only we could get someone with some knowlegde from Holden/GM to get on here and answer our questions, then the 'internet buzz' wouldn't spread so quick, rather than being kept in the dark about it all.

I am however not gonna change my driving style to fix something they didn't think was relevant when testing...
__________________
2001 VX SS
213.9rwkw

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

02-14-2002 07:03 AM

Plan B
LS1.COM Member

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posts: 640

Internet conspiracy theories, urban legend and rumor mutate and spread rapidly. While the core issue might have factual basis, it quickly becomes exaggerated and laced with disinformation. To objectively verify a problem like this and develop, then test a successful fix is difficult and time consuming. This is why General Motors has seemed slow to respond.

Perfect!
__________________
PLAN B
2001 VU SS
Phantom, M6
Street Quick Performance Heads
Pacemaker Exhaust
Plan B Sledgehammer Custom Cam
353 RWHP
..........Fluffy Dice.........
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

02-14-2002 08:04 AM

HOWQUICK
LS1.COM Member

Registered: May 2001
Location: Perth,West. Australia
Posts: 487

the GM fix is old news....scarey thing is they are over boring "green" blocks to fit the fix.

Now I for 1 minute don't doubt that GM are onto something with the ring stack - I wouldn't use low tension oil control rings in a streeter FLAT. I do use them in dry sumped vacuum race engines.

Now regardless of what they say....the motors I have measured standard have had taper and ovality in the bores....no urban myth. This is not from the manufacturing process I believe but from the "green" block settling.

On a whole the issue has been bumped to the point where the old adage...."cut a fingure loose an arm" comes in.

It ain't really that bad!!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

02-14-2002 08:35 AM

vt2vx
LS1.COM Veteran

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Sydney Sutherland shire Australia
Posts: 1882

The US guys are not finding out of round bores, only here it seems. most dealers seem to be finding this now, in fact they make a point look for it now. so the must know something is wrong. not so sure its just settling in, as a new block for a rebuild was found to be out also recently.

Another one was at the local dealers this week, out of round bores.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

02-14-2002 11:16 AM

HOWQUICK
LS1.COM Member

Registered: May 2001
Location: Perth,West. Australia
Posts: 487
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by vt2vx
The US guys are not finding out of round bores, only here it seems. most dealers seem to be finding this now, in fact they make a point look for it now. so the must know something is wrong. not so sure its just settling in, as a new block for a rebuild was found to be out also recently.

Another one was at the local dealers this week, out of round bores.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well maybe they should start measuring them then!!

You would have to be a talented machinist to get these things out of round....either that or GM has some crap boring equipment.

How was the new block measured?

All the fix it kits I have seen have .010" over size pistons...

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

02-14-2002 11:29 AM

vt2vx
LS1.COM Veteran

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Sydney Sutherland shire Australia
Posts: 1882

how was it measured i didn't ask, I assume they use a dial bore guage.

Someone else on here had the same problem with thier motor and a new block also. they may verify this to you via a personal message.

Last edited by vt2vx on 02-14-2002 at 11:53 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

02-14-2002 11:41 AM

vt2vx
LS1.COM Veteran

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Sydney Sutherland shire Australia
Posts: 1882

maybe GM should read this book.

Ma, M.-T., Sherrington, I., Smith, E. H. "Implementation of an algorithm to model the starved lubrication of a piston-ring in distorted bores; Prediction of oil flow and onset of gas blow-by". Proc. I. Mech. E. (Part J) 210 (1996) pp 29 - 44. Journal of Engineering Tribology.

There seems to be another quality thing going on with some of our LS1 engines; its dissapointing to be considering a new car, and have to worry about such a basic issue as the engine working.

[BRIAN GLOVER]

Chui, very interesting stuff, Thanks. I bet you are happy taking pokes at my Chevies, aren't you?;)

I had a 90 Vette, that was much faster than my 92 LT1. The axle ratios were different, but the ZF 6spd xmission had the same ratios. The 90 was one of my favourite cars. It was a Wednesday car, if you know what I mean and the first Polo Green Vette. They replaced the lifters because they where noisy, but that did not fix the problem. Thats why they put those fibre glass rocker covers on, but thats not the point..
I recall that the 92 ran between 80'f cylinder head temp and 250 coolant temp. ( one could call up these readings on the inunciator panel, one by one at the push of a button.) I know the intake temps and heads got really hot on the L98's and must have had detrimentel affects on performence. Hot water ran thru the damn intake manifold. The torque stayed the same but Hp increased by 50 at a 300rpm increase. The things you mention played a big part, but a cold intake and heads made up for a big chunk of that. It had to.
Vettes became econo cars since the LT1. From 18mpg to 27. Cold heads and intake did the job.

Living in Florida, we have a lot of moisture, which played havoc with the LT1s opti-spark ABITS , gear driven off the front of the engine. There where a number of recalls in 92 and 93. I had a 93 also plus a 93 ZR1 with the LT5. I was plagued by moisture problems on the 92 and 93 LT1s.
( early C5s suffered with general electronic problems due to moisture only in Florida)

The 90s LT1s and LT5s could get hydraulic locks and bend rods, by driving thru standing water because of the intake under the car. Any LT1, if you see standing water, hit the brakes and the clutch. Not for preserving your con-rods, but to save the opti-spark.
There were many recalls and fixes. New gaskets and sealants and they tried all kinds of vent systems, even vacuum. Early opti-sparks had no vent. Later models had no problems for 5 years, but then, look out. I had a 95 Vette and a 96 Impala SS. Many Hot rods use these engines, but are never driven in the rain.
Some engine builders put the old distributor back in, with Intake mods( it is fitted on to and at the rear, because opti-sparks arent cheap and cant be repaired. Pretty dumb putting it directly under the water pump. When the pump leaks, it is not long before the fireworks begin. You cant believe the backfires.

Suppliers cause a lot of problems also. For instance, the inlet tube to the stearing pump on late 92s and early 93s failed, because the manufacturer decided to use a non spec gauge material. When the steering lets go, in a turn, you suddenly go straight and the windshield gets covered in oil.

I also put the back wheels on wrong on my 93 Vette and lost it big time in the wet, and hit a pole.
You name it, and I have had experience with it in a Vette since 72. But I still wont drive a BMW.

I never drive at high RPMs with no load like some people do, A)Because it uses gas and B)It shortens the life of the air comp. I dont usually tell people about Vette problems, outside of Vette circles, you understand. My LT5 is in Munich now. Belongs to a friend of mine.

BMWs are having some recalls these days.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chui
[/COLOR]

Not true, Brian.

[Melbourne Park]

In Australia it appears that the newest Holdens may be having few problems with the LT1. I will check about problems.

However we seem to get out of round cylinder bores ...

However if we were to go the Monaro, what is the recommended running in method?

From reading down here, its probably best to use a mineral oil, and after the first 1,000 miles, to give the engine plenty of loadings. ie cane it a bit.

[Chui]

Originally posted by imaginesix

Hi chui.

Can you tell me how one would determine whether or not he had the ABITS system, or the early ignition system with water intrusion problems? I know someone with some late model Camaros and Firebirds who has had problems on some with water intrusion into the distributor. Also, what is the prescribed remedy?

If you have any links to direct me to, thay would be great too.

Thanks.

If he has an LT-1F engine then he does have the ABITS "Opti-Fire" distributor. The "remedy" will require a design fix. Water is allowed into the distributor, but from where I do not recall. I imagine that it comes thru the circumferential seal. One could apply silicone on the sealing "sandwiched" surface of the distributor. While they're at it I'd definitely apply the Loctite on both ends of the spline. I recall taking spark scatter measurements and getting +/- 5 degrees of spark on some of the engines. Mind you, these were durability test engines, but if you're going thru the effort to remove the water pump and play with the distributor you may as well fix the known issues here. Why Delco would not have incorporated some sort of shield for the distributor I'll never know. Once the condensation builds up inside of the device you're not going anywhere anytime soon.

Hope this helps. If you're still having issues I can contact some former co-workers who may be able to assist you.

[Chui]

Originally posted by BRIAN GLOVER
Chui, very interesting stuff, Thanks. I bet you are happy taking pokes at my Chevies, aren't you?;)

No, not at all, Brian. I knew the people involved in that program and I was personally involved in that program and I desperately wanted it to be the best it could be. I gain nothing by belittling the heroic efforts of so many good people. Unfortunately, a few things were allowed to impede progress and they paid for it.

I had a 90 Vette, that was much faster than my 92 LT1. The axle ratios were different, but the ZF 6spd xmission had the same ratios. The 90 was one of my favourite cars. It was a Wednesday car, if you know what I mean and the first Polo Green Vette. They replaced the lifters because they where noisy, but that did not fix the problem. That's why they put those fibre glass rocker covers on, but thats not the point...

Yes, the rocker arm covers are composed of a material that provides some attenuation of the noise emanating from the lifters.

I recall that the '92 ran between 80'F cylinder head temp and 250 coolant temp. ( one could call up these readings on the inunciator panel, one by one at the push of a button.) I know the intake temps and heads got really hot on the L98's and must have had detrimentel affects on performence. Hot water ran thru the damn intake manifold. The torque stayed the same but Hp increased by 50 at a 300 rpm increase. The things you mention played a big part, but a cold intake and heads made up for a big chunk of that. It had to.

No. It did not. There was no temperature difference btwn a conventional set-up and the "reverse flow cooling" set-up. In fact, GM got sued - to add insult to injury - for the reverse-flow cooling concept. It seems that someone else came up with the idea and someone, who shall remain nameless, found a way around the gentleman's patent application.

Vettes became econo cars since the LT1. From 18 mpg to 27 mpg. Cold heads and intake did the job.

Actually, for efficiency's sake a warm intake is better. Why? Fewer enthalpy losses due to wider opening of the throttle plate to make similar power on a cold intake. Odd, but true.

Living in Florida, we have a lot of moisture, which played havoc with the LT1s opti-spark ABITS , gear driven off the front of the engine. There where a number of recalls in '92 and '93. I had a '93 also plus a '93 ZR-1 with the LT5. I was plagued by moisture problems on the '92 and '93 LT1s.
(early C5s suffered with general electronic problems due to moisture only in Florida)

The LT-5 engine in the ZR-1 NEVER passed Corporate Durability for whatever it's worth to you. I never figured out what the exact issues were as I did not support that engine, but my cube mate did. I had my hands full with the LT-1 and it was a 'source of pride' that my program was "better" than her's. It was all in fun.

The '90s LT1s and LT5s could get hydraulic locks and bend rods, by driving thru standing water because of the intake under the car. Any LT1, if you see standing water, hit the brakes and the clutch. Not for preserving your con-rods, but to save the opti-spark.

I'm sure the 'Vette isn't the only sports car that can get a severe case of hydro-lock from driving quickly thru a deep puddle of water, however. I'm curious where the air inlet is located now now that you've mentioned it.

There were many recalls and fixes. New gaskets and sealants and they tried all kinds of vent systems, even vacuum. Early opti-sparks had no vent. Later models had no problems for 5 years, but then, look out. I had a '95 Vette and a '96 Impala SS. Many Hot rods use these engines, but are never driven in the rain.

Some engine builders put the old distributor back in, with Intake mods( it is fitted on to and at the rear, because opti-sparks aren't cheap and can't be repaired. Pretty dumb putting it directly under the water pump. When the pump leaks, it is not long before the fireworks begin. You can't believe the backfires.

Suppliers cause a lot of problems also. For instance, the inlet tube to the steering pump on late '92s and early '93s failed, because the manufacturer decided to use a non spec gauge material. When the steering lets go, in a turn, you suddenly go straight and the windshield gets covered in oil.

I also put the back wheels on wrong on my '93 Vette and lost it big time in the wet, and hit a pole.
You name it, and I have had experience with it in a Vette since 72. But I still wont drive a BMW.

You should really get some seat time in the 2000 E46 M3 or the 2000 + E39 M5... AWESOME cars in every conceivable measure of the word.

I never drive at high RPMs with no load like some people do, A)Because it uses gas and B)It shortens the life of the air comp. I dont usually tell people about Vette problems, outside of Vette circles, you understand. My LT5 is in Munich now. Belongs to a friend of mine.

BMWs are having some recalls these days.

Yes, fires are not to be taken lightly. I don't recall the exact issue, but BMW was asking people to park the Z8 outside. It seems someone lost a car collection... OUCH!! Not sure if it was primarily a V8 issue or not. In any case not good. Also the new 7 Series seems to be having some public image issues in the UK. AUTOCAR has reported electrical gremlins on several of the test cars that they tested... WHY would the "boys from Bavaria" change such a successful recipe? I don't need 5 miles of electrical wiring and touch screen LED displays. Not in a PROPER DRIVER'S CAR [be it sedan coupe or convertible].

[BRIAN GLOVER]

It was a dumb arrangement Adam. If you tried to change to secong below 20mph, a solonoid would prevent the shift and the stick would be directed to 4th. This was to meet EPA requirements. Above 20, there would be no problem. All you had to do was pull the plug on the solonoid on the gearbox. Ecklers sold a spacer plug for $30. I intalled it the day I got my Vettes. The dealer was not allowed by law to tamper with the thing. I normally go from first to third anyway down town which it will allow. When the solonoid kicks in, it increases the resistence of the shift and your hand slips of the gear lever before you have completely taken the car out of first and some times some awful noises came from the complaining gears. This mechanism only appears on Corvettes and Camaros with LT1 engines. The Camaro used the Borg Warner T56 6 speed (Now Temex T56) and the Vette used the German ZF 6 speed which was built in the US from mid 93 to 96 and are very expensive to repair on an exchange basis. The T56 uses patents from ZF and is still found in Camaros, Corvettes and Vipers.

Originally posted by AdamLarnachJr After 93 1/2, the US built ZF got a lower torque rating, because people complained about the truck like noises that came from near cross cut gears. One mans noise, is another mans music.
Didn't GM use the CAGS system to defeat the method of driving around town in anything higher than 4th? The solenoid automatically engages 4th gear when driving around town, of course you can buy a bypass module for like $30, but most of the quasi Vette and Camaro owners, at least around here... all friggen convertables for crying out loud... couldn't tell the difference between a solenoid and the lump under their hood. Thus, the CAGS system would remain intact and working properly, so it should, as described by GM, prevent anyone from driving in a high gear with a light load.

[BRIAN GLOVER]

You know I'm just joshing with you Chui. I really appreciate this information and will pass it along to my Vette club this evening.
I was driving behind and alongside the new BMW 745 the other day for about 10 miles. There where a number of other cars circling around this thing, including a 850. The 745 looks positively awful. My God, what have they done?. It appeared to have positive camber in the front and negative at the back with huge tires. I dont think that there is a uglier car. What do you think of it?

I know Dave McLellen left under a cloud from Corvette. It had some thing to do with the LT5. Some bean counter wanted the same bore centres of the LT1, which rendered the engine a failure from the start. What do you know about this? Did you know John Hienracy and Dick Guldstrand? Heinracy raced the ZR1s with the Chevy SB2 engine at the end, because the LT5 had problems. I wonder what the real story is?
Guldstrand built his carbon fibre GS Guldstand Corvettes on ZR1 chassis and GM pulled the plug on him after he had spent over $mill. Dick is a wonderful man and still works hard at his suspension shop at nearly 80 years of age.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chui

[BRIAN GLOVER]

Chevy adds a break in additive to the Mobil 1 oil. I would leave it in for a couple of thousand miles and drive it normally after 500 miles. My 'normal' may differ from yours. I would avoid hard acceleration and max rpm for that 500 m period. LS1s seem to have consistent performance thru out theit lives, but the iron blocks seemed to work best between 10000 miles and 60 ooo miles.

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
In Australia it appears that the newest Holdens may be having few problems with the LT1. I will check about problems.

However we seem to get out of round cylinder bores ...

However if we were to go the Monaro, what is the recommended running in method?

From reading down here, its probably best to use a mineral oil, and after the first 1,000 miles, to give the engine plenty of loadings. ie cane it a bit.

[Melbourne Park]

Since my wife wants an auto this time, I don't think running in is a large issue. However some of the Holden LS1 web site guys who've loaded their engines from early on have reported no oil consumption problems. I find even running in a new engine a bit strange now ... the Japanese auto people, Mazda and Toyota, say their engines don't need running in. The dealers say take it easy until the first oild change at 1500 km. I've always followed the rule of not allowing the engine to sit on one speed for long; to let the engine spin freely, and not load it up by accellerating in a high gear from low RPMs.

I've had two engines that suddenly used a lot of oil; my Fiat X1/9 used a heap after its first oil change. Oil would build up at idle, and blue smoke would pour out the back as I accellerated off. The dealers said I had glazed the cylinder bores by badly running in the engine, and that it was all my fault. When they took the head of the engine, there were no valve guide seals installed. No problems after they put those in ... The other engine's sudden plumes of oil was easier to diagnose. I was moving from three sites around 30 trips per day, each about about a mile apart. I would full throttle in first and second to each site, and then turn the engine off ... I did that for maybe four weeks. A short time after, lots of blue smoke from the rear. It was a 99 series SAAB turbo, and I'd cooked the turbo bearings. Ouch. My fault too ... I remember pulling the bonnet at night with a friend who had a turbo Alpha, we were in the countryside having fun, and the red glow from the turbo was very bright; the turbo was at night dull red and illuminated the engine bay and us; I was astonished about how hot it had got.

[BRIAN GLOVER]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Melbourne Park
[B]Since my wife wants an auto this time, I don't think running in is a large issue. However some of the Holden LS1 web site guys who've loaded their engines from early on have reported no oil consumption problems.

My partner in South Africa just sent me this info. His freind,Steve Wyndom will race the Holden Commodore (Chevrolet Lumina)at Kyalami on Saturday in production Class A againsts 320 MBs and 330 BMW and Suburu Imprezzios for the first time. He mentions rr suspension problems(handeling) but doesnt know of oil consumption problems. I will give you a report on that and the race next week. He will be talking to Chevy engineers next week.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by BRIAN GLOVER
...
My partner in South Africa just sent me this info. His freind,Steve Wyndom will race the Holden Commodore (Chevrolet Lumina)at Kyalami on Saturday in production Class A againsts 320 MBs and 330 BMW and Suburu Imprezzios for the first time. He mentions rr suspension problems(handeling) but doesnt know of oil consumption problems. I will give you a report on that and the race next week. He will be talking to Chevy engineers next week.

Thanks Brian.

From what I've found out so far, the engine rebuilds they are doing here incorporate the new cylinder ring designs.

As to the out of round issues, possably this is dealer ingnorance. It seems that if the bores are measured without the crank caps torqued up the bores will be poor and oval. Torque plating should also be standard engine building procedure.

It seems that many blocks have been disgarded because the bores are being measured without the bearing caps bolted up...

There is another problem with the car, and that is drive train issues, which effect the differential. It seems that there can be a low speed clunking noise on sharp corners. There may be another diff issue as well.

It also seems that the newest vehicles are not expected to have engine issues. The newest vehicles also have a "control link", which is an extra link on each side of the rear suspension, which improves handling sigificantly.

Another thing they do to the cars is install better brakes; the newest HSV cars have six pot calipers now. Australia manfuactures such brakes and exports them for the Corvette.

As to your friend, I hope that he has the control links, but I don't think so; also his car would not have the better brakes, but they are available as a retro fitting. I would imagine that if he had the better brakes, he would only find the Subaru difficult to beat on the track. The Subarus have good brakes, sometimes great brakes, and their power can be easily increased. They'd kill the big sedan on a track I'd say.

Thanks for the feedback and I look forward to hearing about your friend.

[BRIAN GLOVER]

Word back from S Africa. The Holden did not race last Saturday because they hadn't finnished preparing it. It will race in two weeks. The LS1 engines have the updated ring packs, and the lubricants are locally synthesised and the gasolene is derived from coal. No excessive oil consumption is reported. Ill let you know about the race.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Melbourne Park
[B]


From what I've found out so far, the engine rebuilds they are doing here incorporate the new cylinder ring designs.

[Melbourne Park]

Thanks Brian.

I suspect the likelihood of engine trouble is not large, as I suspect if one waits a few more months, the engines will have the revisions discussed.

However we are not going to get the Monaro. Its a very nice car in many ways, but one thing that concerned me was the computer system that runs the engine. It seems the only way for an individual to hot the car up, is to disconect the electrics, and then re connect them: for a day or at the most two, any engine hot ups will be very effective. But the computer soon realises there is too much power happening, and soon the engine changes itself until it is developing its original power and torque. That to me means the resale will not appeal to petrol heads.

Other issues about the car were the idle attitude of the sales staff; the lack of automatic test cars (or manual test cars), the lack of brakes, and the lack of power assist brakes; unknown levels of depreciation.

My wife also feels that a four door would be much more practical than a coupe.

We drove the WRX; she loved it; didn't mind the noise too much; but hated the seats. So did I. Out here they have changed the seat raise and lower mechanism. Here if one raises the seat, the seat goes up and the front of the seat bottom leans more downward the further the seat is raised. Because they are rally style seats, a significant area of one's back then becomes unsupported. If the seat is as low as it can go, then they works OK for the driver, but as a passenger they were not comfortable. But as soon as the seat is off the floor, the small of ones back hurts. By adding two Recaro seats, the extra non returnable cost rules the WRX out of the equation.

So it looks like my wife will get a 325 or 328 BMW. Sorry Brian ... the 328 sounds surpringly like a Monaro, it growls along; the later 325 is much more female car, it sings rather thatn growels, and its all over very light to drive. My wife likes it a lot. I never trusted BMWs before but it looks like I am going to find out if they're any good. I like the way they feel and handle though, and I do like the little sixes. The C class MB is not discounted yet and for the same dollars as a new C class compressor one can get a more upmarket and much faster 3 series BM.

[BRIAN GLOVER]

The Chev Lumina(Holden Commadore) ran its first two heat race in South Africa on Saturday and came 3rd in the first and 4th in the second. The car needs much work but is expected to thrash the BMs and the MBs. Stay tuned.

gQUOTE]Originally posted by Melbourne Park
[B]Thanks Brian.
So it looks like my wife will get a 325 or 328 BMW. Sorry Brian ... the 328 sounds surpringly like a Monaro, it growls along;

You must be crazy. A st 6 sounds like a V8. Im really worried about you.

[Melbourne Park]

Thanks Brian.

By the way my wife got the BMW 325 this afternoon. !! Funny you should add to this thread today of all days.

I hope you are well, and not too upset that we have broken your rules. But in the States, I don't know what my wife would have got!! Probably she'd had bought a Vette not an MX5, and she'd be keeping it! Out here, they cost a fortune. They are not built for driving on the left hand side of the street either ...

Why not the Monaro?

• She decided with old parents she could not have two doors. She rejected all two door cars. The Monaro was not easy to get into the back - the electric seats went forward, but not far enough, and they did not tip up. It was not easy to get into the back of.

• She had a total of only10 minutes driving automatic Monaros, and she spent some hours trying to. We even went to a dealer who had one, but after an hours drive, the dealer announced that the car had been sold the previous night. It seems that at that time, dealers don't want people to test drive Monaros. If one wants to drive it, the dealers think such a person is not a likely buyer. And they loose money it seems on a demo sale car, but they can sell a demo buy car as a new car, and make even more profit. This was irritating and eventually we became disenfranchised ...

• No discounts available, at all (which breaks one of my golden rules)

• I believe a discount will later be available

• The LS1 performance cannot be improved except by super/turbo charging since the computer system is too smart and too comples; it just resets itself back to the factory performance. I think this may effect resale for the hot it up market.

• The 325 suits her more: its a more compact car, which matters, quite nippy, with better feel, brakes and also secondary safety. I like the brakes a lot.

The Monaro is going to be exported to the States. All it really needs is to have the HSV brake upgrade, which is important, the car has 'ornory braking at the moment. Also rear crash safety will be improved with a different fuel tank.

Best of Regards

[AdamLarnachJr]

A word about the LS1's, the LS1 is perhaps the most easily modifyable SBC ever produced since the early 70's... things such as Throttle bodies, Intake Manifolds, Head work, camshafts, displacement, all can be changed with minimal or no computer work at all... with stock LS6 heads, Intake manifold, and the GM Hotcam, an easy 410hp could be had... at the rear wheels!

[Melbourne Park]

I have a long detailed report on how modifications to the LS1 don't last more than a number of hours; then the computer rethinks itself back to where the factory wants it to be ... I feel like posting it, but haven' t the time at the moment. From a tuning house ... they say the GM software is too complex and large to modify ... and that the super was the best way to make it work ... seems the report I had was wrong ... but I am talking about Australia, if that's relevent.

[PAD]

Going back to the topic heading.

A collegue has a 1995 Porsche 911 RS which he bought mainly as an investment. He drives it about once a week and then only gently (probably always within speed limits)

However, he was concerned with the oil usage. A look in the owners handbook made him "happier" as it states that normal consumption is 1.5 litres per 1000 km (approx 5pints per 1000 miles for you imperialists)

Its sounds like a incredible amount - must almost make the Porker engine into a 2-stroke!!!!

[BRIAN GLOVER]

I'll get over it, it's going to be tough, but I'll get over it. Congratulations on your fine purchase. It is only in recent years that GM dealers have been giving good service in the States. Bob Lutz says that he will model GM USA after the Australian division, I hope that doesnt apply to the dealer network.
I expect a full report and road test. BM sales are growing world wide, and it is by no accident, they make a fine product. My wife is on the market for a car and being a GM guy, I have been trying to get her into a Caddilac for years. She has been driving a Tahoe( Huge GM SUV). She likes the new little Jag. No Ford is going to park in my driveway, what will my friends think?
. It is the same price as the Caddy CTS, which she doesnt like at all. The CTS has its roots at Opel. It replaces the Opel Omega based Catera, which is also the base for the Holden Commadore. The CTS is designed by GMs German division, and is availible with a 5 speed and the Opel V6.
It actually feels like a BMW. The fit and finnish is poor, whereas the Jag is superb and the Jag has awd.
She came home with a SLK a few years ago, that almost led to a divorce, fortunatley, her mother drove it into a Honda. It was always in the shop for something, even prior to the accident. I know what you are going thru, we are car shopping now also.
I have a Z06, a Silverado( Chevy truck) and a Chevy Metro(Isuzu Swift). It sounds crazy, but for city driving, the Metro makes the most sense, but she needs something bigger. We have not considered a BMW. Having a Ford or a BMW in my drive, will be like changing religions or political parties. This is a very difficult time of my life .

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Melbourne Park
[B]Thanks Brian.

By the way my wife got the BMW 325 this afternoon. !!
I hope you are well, and not too upset that we have broken your rules.

[AdamLarnachJr]

LS1Edit is a program that can be used by anybody with a computer, it allows manipulation of the entire engine computer, turn off/on sensors, fuel maps, ignition, you name it, it can do it. There wouldn't be such a huge aftermarket here in the US for LS1 parts if they didn't work.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by BRIAN GLOVER
... Bob Lutz says that he will model GM USA after the Australian division, I hope that doesnt apply to the dealer network.

I doubt they would; the dealer network is a very different animal. For instance, 15 years ago the Aussie Government concluded that we had too many manufacturers to sustain our market - we had Nissen, Mitusubishi, GM, Ford and Toyota. British Leyland had closed down. The conclusion was that import tarriffs would be dropped, over a period of time; that the local producers should produce a limited number of models, and thereby achieve some economies of scale, which would allow them to compete with imports; and maybe even export (regarded as a hopeless dream at the time). Also an export credit scheme had been already established, which meant that if a car company exported some manufactured item, they could import the equivelent in value, without any tariffs. So that is why GM set up the engine business: they export a whole lot of engines, and import various types of smaller cars from Opel/Vauxhaul made in Spain and Belgium typically, mostly without any tarriffs. Also why E class and other Mercedes Benz springs are made in Australia - MB get an import credit for the exports of the springs. So too still I think for the Corvette brakes, made here; and catalytic convertors for Peugots, made here. When this all started, GM and Toyota got together and decided to sell Toyotas labelled as Holdens, and Holdens labelled as Toyotas. The models were very similar; although some people were fooled, most were not; and while Holden dealers sold many Camry cars labelled as Holdens, the Toyota dealers didn't sell many Holden made cars. Then the Camries got bigger, quite close in size to the Commodore; and the experiment failed, the retail operations decided it wasn't working.

So you might have a feel, that the retail chain really is very seperate out here! Lutz should not leave it alone though, our dealers should get their act together; but then, they only have to go up the road to a Toyota or BMW dealer to learn how to sell a car ... but they don't seem to think they should follow that route. Most Commodores are fleet cars, sold with varying levels of discount; a national fleet status gets around 10% discount, which makes a big difference to the depreciation. but they still depreciate, which means if someone buys the car themselves, they have lost an extra 10% just because they are not a large company ... so the Commodore and Falcon have become solidly company purchases. I felt from several discussions that aventually the Monaro would be discounted, as well as improved, and since Coupes have historically dropped in price when the niche market is saturated, I felt there was some financial risk with the Monaro.

I am not a GM guy but have never bought a Ford; my grandfather had the first Ford agency in Victoria (maybe Australia, the car business is centred in Victoria), he also had Stutz cars; many Model Ts out here have bodies built with my family name, but the bodies were built by Floods; soon Ford put in their own body plant about 30 miles from Melbourne.

I will give you a full road report and road test, for sure. When the spine stops tingling ...

I'll explain the process my wife went through as well. This time I hardly drove the cars; I did not try to steer her that much, but recommended cars to try and arranged it. She says guys buy engines, women buy cars ... I'll get back in a few days!!

edit: "year ago" added after 15

[palmas]

Originally posted by PAD
Going back to the topic heading.

A collegue has a 1995 Porsche 911 RS which he bought mainly as an investment. He drives it about once a week and then only gently (probably always within speed limits)

However, he was concerned with the oil usage. A look in the owners handbook made him "happier" as it states that normal consumption is 1.5 litres per 1000 km (approx 5pints per 1000 miles for you imperialists)

Its sounds like a incredible amount - must almost make the Porker engine into a 2-stroke!!!!

Let me explain how this works:

Oil consumption is normal and is more with a brand new engine and with a worn out engine. The 1,5 liter they specify means:
When new, up to 1,5 l/1000km is normal - do not botter us
When worn out, up to 1,5 l/1000km there is no need to rebuild or replace the engine.

A big oil consumption is not normaly a good sign, but can be considered normal.

[Melbourne Park]

I've not used much oil in 911s. I wonder about "driving gently" the '95 RS; it seems to me that wouldn't be so good for it. They're not designed for going up and buying some milk. Also if he only is driving at the weekends, the mileage would be tiny; yet he's using oil; glazed pistons maybe? Its possable with a new engine like a 911 that never gets properly used.

[BRIAN GLOVER]

Hey MP
The latest Auto Week has an article on the Holden Manaro. It seems it may become a Pontiac GTO in the States. Bob Lutz(Viper, PT Cruiser, Prowler) wants to bring 20 000 of them to the States each year. It has 402 HP in Australia, but will be less here because of smog. The decision is two weeks away. The Opel Omega( Caddilac Catera) went fron 3400lbs to 4000lbs, after they added all the US crap. The Holden weighs 3620lbs now. The car will be sold for $30 000 as opposed to the Aus$ 56 900. Keep your fingers crossed, it could be my wifes next car.

On a sad note, The editor and publisher of Autoweek, Leon Mandel, died of leukemia this week,at the age of 73. For Americans, Autoweek is the finest news magazine. Mandel has been there since 83.

A Cornell Grad., Leon inherited some money in the 50's. He said,

" If I had of invested it IBM, I certainly would have been wealthy, instead, I bought a Porsche...and got a life. "

He wrote such books as; William Fisk Harrah's autobiography, American Cars, centred on Harrahs auto collection, Speed with Style, about Peter Revson, Fast Lane Summer, about Can Am and Al Holbert. His columns in Autoweek, Motor Trend and Car and Driver, were fantastic. RIP. Every letter I wrote him, he replied in the kindest manor.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Melbourne Park

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by BRIAN GLOVER
Hey MP
The latest Auto Week has an article on the Holden Manaro. It seems it may become a Pontiac GTO in the States. Bob Lutz(Viper, PT Cruiser, Prowler) wants to bring 20 000 of them to the States each year. It has 402 HP in Australia, but will be less here because of smog. The decision is two weeks away. The Opel Omega( Caddilac Catera) went fron 3400lbs to 4000lbs, after they added all the US crap. The Holden weighs 3620lbs now. The car will be sold for $30 000 as opposed to the Aus$ 56 900. Keep your fingers crossed, it could be my wifes next car.[/i]

It would be somewhat ironic if your wife bought one while my wife did not!

Our reports say GM want the car. The decision is up to the US car unions we've been told.

I doubt its weight would increase much for the US. Holden have to change the rear fuel tank for US rear collision rules. Holden have been making right hand drive Commodores for a few years now; the biggest market is the middle east, where they are sold as Chevrolets (the 4 door Commodore).

I understand at some time the gearbox will be changed, to the same one that BMW has been using. The 3 series has a five speed auto with a sports mode and selectable gears. Its super smooth and GM Holden will be getting that at some time. BMW will go to a six speed auto, and in many countries (not Aus. yet accept in the M3) the 6 speed auto changing or selectable gearbox will be more commonly available. I imagine in the US smoothness is more important than economy or even accelleration; in most of the world, economy versus price and performance is important.

With the manual Monaro, the gearbox has six ratios, and the gearbox is not in most peoples opinions well set up. The reason being that the thing hardly revs in 6th gear; it revs something like 1800 RPM at 100kmh. On hills one has to change down to 5th or 4th ... pretty silly for a 5.7 litre engine. But by setting up the ratios that way, its possable to get on a long trip, around 8.2 litres/100 km. That is very good fuel economy. If I translate that to MPG, I'll get it wrong, because US gallons are different from our Aussie ones, I think about 13% difference, I forget which way. Because of the ratios being set up that way, the manual doesn't out accellerate the 4 speed auto by much either, and it requires some concentration to perfectly launch the car and change the gears.

The Monaro has good steering, while the Commodore has poors steering. They revised the front end very cleverly for the Monaro. The seats are very good IMO, and the leather is very good also (Aussie Howe leather is used, and is epxorted to many outo makers, including companies in the US and even BMW use it).

The paint quality on the Commodore isn't so good, but it does last. Our BMW isn't as good as a Japanese car either (the "fish scale" appearance is in the BMW, while a good Jap car has no fish scales). The metallic paint on a Monaro doesn't cost extra, but the mettalics used don't seem to have as much metal in the paint. The silver is not as metallic as it would be if it were Japanese; the silver particles appear to be one third as many as a Japanese silver. The result is that the Monaro silver often looks whitish and readily turns grey under clouds.

The Monaro blue makes the car look European; the blue interior is superb, very Euro. The yellow is very bright and it looks great; in Aus a yellow car has to have a black interior, my wife didn't like the black ("anthrasite") interior. My favourite colour was red; the Holden red is a very good red. The rear tale lights blend into the red body work very well so that the tale lights look very cool in some light angles, they seem to dissappear just leaving two clear rounds lens. The reddish / light brownish orangish interior in the red or silver cars is an excellant colours scheme. The light green metallic also looks good, but its a black interior.

I have spoken to my GMH engineer (who lives over the road). When I talking about the LS1 engine and my concerns with it, his eyes widened some and then he went into various engine stories. The basic statement was that it takes 3000 engines to find a reliability problem, that the test processes of a dozen engines don't show up everything. He told a story of the Nissen six cylinder engines which Holden used for a few years. Nissen at that time assembled cars here, and their Skyline shared its six cylinder engine with the Holden. The engine had great press and is renowned for its longevity. However it had a fault: the alloy head would crack. My engineer friend was not allowed to photocopy any of the Nissen documentation about the engine, and all had to be returned at the end of the Holden using period. There was a guy in melbourne, a reconditioning engine guy, who fixed the engines. He would weld up the crack, and then put the bent head into a large press, and squeeze the head straight; that seemed to fix them pretty well ... Aussie "enginuity" (neh - ingenuity).

A reason we did not go for the Monaro was its two door nature, not an issue for you it seems. In the back there is a heap of room for two people; the seats are really excellant and the view is fine back there. The issue for my wife was getting in and out, which is not as easy as it could have been. The reason is the seats, unlike in a BMW or MB two door, do not go as far forward as they should, and the bases do not tip upwards which swings the seat back well forward as well. Because of this the gap to slide in is quite restricted.

I asked the engineer guy why the seats went forward slowly (they are electric) - he said they must have used the same motors for the normal electric seat forward and backwards mechanism, rather than putting in new higher speed motors. I said a manual mechanism would have been better, because one waits something like eight seconds for the seat to go forward. One can live with it but I thought it would be a nuisance if getting in and out was a common occurrence.

I'll write the "reviews" on the other cars my wife drove now and post it was well.