39 replies to this topic

[SeanValen]

I remember hearing last year I believe, Prost admitting there were serious talks about him joining Michael Schumacher at Ferrari in 1996. What do you think would of happened given the not so good Ferrari car that year?

I know Michael would have still won Spain 96 the way he did, and Prost being a poor wet weather driver, would be far behind.


Michael would of won over Prost over the season, and got his Spain and Spa wins etc. Prost probabley not the driver he used to be, much older, less fitter.


Apart from the performance questions, I pretty much see Schumacher and Prost getting on well.

How would of Prost compared to Eddie Irvine though? I give it to Prost, maybe older, but still smart, and hopefully fast in 1996.



Interesting, excellent

[Nikolas Garth]

It would not have been a fair comparison for Prost. He would have been too old at that point.

[aportinga]

I am totally stumped. I want to say that MS would have got the better of him but yet after being teammates to Senna I simply don't know if it's possible.

I can't call it damnit! I am completely unsure.

[armchair expert]

He wouldn't have done it. Too much residual animosity following his previous stint with the Scuderia and he would not have pitted his skills against the new champion. Senna's death would have stopped him racing I suspect. Plus, he was thinking of team ownership at that time.

[SeanValen]

But looking at it, glad Prost retired early, good drivers always know when to walk away, excellent

[Earthling]

Prost's intention to join Ferrari with Schumacher in 96 was to help Schumi win the championship with Ferrari who hadnt won it for so long.
Obviously he would have finished behind even if he was ahead due to team orders cuz it was Mikey that was to take the fight to Williams.
Prost was the 2A driver.

[Rediscoveryx]

I don't think Prost could have matched Schumacher's pace over the course of a whole season, he was just too old (having said that, he was probably too old in 1993 and he still walked that season). Prost would likely have won in Monaco (unless some mechanical problems occured), and would definately have been a consistent point scorer, but I don't see him doing the things he did in the past.

One thing about Prost though; he was fast, much faster than most think. Being outqualified by Senna doesn't mean your'e a slow guy. Prost scored 33 pole positions in his career. Only Senna and Schumacher have more.

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by Rediscoveryx
Prost would likely have won in Monaco (unless some mechanical problems occured),

Why Monaco of all places???? Schumi was giving Senna a driving lesson in 1993 at Monaco before his hydraulics packed it in on him.

[badri]

Earthling: Prost's intention to join Ferrari with Schumacher in 96 was to help Schumi win the championship with Ferrari who hadnt won it for so long.

Well, now you know where Sly Stallone got the idea for Driven!

[Rediscoveryx]

Originally posted by Nikolas Garth
Why Monaco of all places???? Schumi was giving Senna a driving lesson in 1993 at Monaco before his hydraulics packed it in on him.

Nearly all cars retired at Monaco, and Prost was superb on getting his car to the finish. he was also the king of Monaco, winning there four times before Senna dethroned him.

[Drifter]

He would have been soundly beaten in the dry races..chickened out of the wet races..and finally realised he didn't have it anymore and packed it in like Damon Hill ;)

[Earthling]

Originally posted by badri


Well, now you know where Sly Stallone got the idea for Driven!

Most likely treu...

[Rene]

Originally posted by Drifter
He would have been soundly beaten in the dry races..chickened out of the wet races..and finally realised he didn't have it anymore and packed it in like Damon Hill ;)

You must have watched a lot of F1 during the 80's to have that asstute observation...

[troyf1]

Is it me or has this turned into nothing but a Prost bashing thread. The guy won 4 titles and 51 GP's yet this thread is making him out to look like a wanker. He gets bashed for being aprehensive in the wet yet people seem to forget that he was behind Didier Pironi when Pironi was nearly killed at a VERY wet Hockenheim in 1982. That would have affected anyone including Herr Schumacher. People need to give Prost the credit he is due for being one of the best drivers ever to grace a racing car.

[Rene]

Originally posted by troyf1
Is it me or has this turned into nothing but a Prost bashing thread. The guy won 4 titles and 51 GP's yet this thread is making him out to look like a wanker. He gets bashed for being aprehensive in the wet yet people seem to forget that he was behind Didier Pironi when Pironi was nearly killed at a VERY wet Hockenheim in 1982. That would have affected anyone including Herr Schumacher. People need to give Prost the credit he is due for being one of the best drivers ever to grace a racing car.

Prost may not have been Senna in the wet, but he was a good deal faster than most other's in the wet, especially when he was at his peak...

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by troyf1
People need to give Prost the credit he is due for being one of the best drivers ever to grace a racing car.

Yes, that is why I am glad Prost never took up that offer in 1996. The Prost of 1996 would have been a pale imitation of the Prost of 1985.

[badri]

troyf1: Is it me or has this turned into nothing but a Prost bashing thread. The guy won 4 titles and 51 GP's yet this thread is making him out to look like a wanker. He gets bashed for being aprehensive in the wet yet people seem to forget that he was behind Didier Pironi when Pironi was nearly killed at a VERY wet Hockenheim in 1982. That would have affected anyone including Herr Schumacher. People need to give Prost the credit he is due for being one of the best drivers ever to grace a racing car.

Just to get the facts correct here, wasn't this the other way around?
As in Prost was doing a slow lap, when Didier hit him from behind, not
realizing that Prost was in front.

Anyways, agree with you though that all this Prost bashing is silly.
If ou ask me, what Prost did in the wet in Adelaide & what Lauda did
in the wet in Fuji, calls for a totally different kind of courage, then just
going flat out in poor visibility.

Thanks.

[Rediscoveryx]

I remember Derek Warwick being interviewed about driver safety on May 2nd 1994. He said something along the lines of Prost being the only driver out there who valued his own life higher than the WDC. It was a very emotional interview, as Warwick referred to his late brother on a couple of occasions, and it was clear that Warwick had a great deal of respect for Prost. On Adelaide 1989 he emphasised that what Prost did took an enormous amount of courage. To withstand the pressure of racing and to pull in at the end of the first lap takes another sort of courage than taking Eau Rouge flat out.

As Derek Warwick put it; "Prost took an enormous risk, because what was he? A "coward". I'll tell you who the real cowards were. It was us, the other 25 drivers who raced that day. We were the real cowards."

Apart from Satoru Nakajima, I have not heard a single driver say afterwards that the conditions were OK. Even Senna said that the conditions were to bad to race in.

[B.Verkiler]

From what we saw of Prost in 93, no doubt :

- there wouldn't have been a single qualifying session where Prost could have been at less than 1s of MS.
- AP and MS having opposite driving style, their collaboration would have been counter-productive, ie negative. Prost wouldn't have finished the season.

- AP knew it and refused to go. He knew he wouldn't stand a chance. He said it.

[silver]

Prost was an excellent development driver but still i think that Schumacher would have had the upper hand.

In 1996 Schumacher was still pretty much a young charger and Prost was quite old for a racing driver.

During winter testing in 1994 Ron Dennis tried to lure Prost to drive the second McLaren-Peugeot beside Hakkinen. Prost took part in one testing session and was more than 1.5 secs slower than Hakkinen and after that he decided not to race. I think the fact that the car wasnt WCC material either had something to do with the decision.

[SennasCat]

Prost probably would have politicised and marginalised Schumacher the same divisive way he manipulated every team he was in. How come he is a saint now he has gone broke?????

[magic]

prost debuted in 1980.
he had to fight a lot of all-time great divers who were driving great cars.
prost was finished end of '93, worn out.

he can be proud of himself he was a great driver in his time.
testing the '95 mac and discovering he could not match mh might have helped to understand it was over.

prost and ms met eachother in portugal '93.
ms lucked into the lead and prost on fresh tyres was approaching fast.
prost was much faster than ms, who on worn tyres pulled every chopping trick to keep prost behind.
prost had seen it all, duly collected 2nd and his 4th wdc.

what would have been VERY interesting though would have been prost replacing senna after imola '94.
that could have been another story all together.
i think an even washed up prost in the improving fw16 might have given ms a lot more to worry about than alain's former no.2 did.

[Breadmaster]

if prost drives for the scuderia in 96 who does he drive for in 94 and 95?

ap 1994/5 wdc for williams?
as still dead?
what if what if?

[maxim]

Prost was sacked in 1991 after saying "I'm driving a truck".
In early 1996 Ferrari was still a truck.
Alain said he wouldn't have driven trucks anymore ;)

[Rediscoveryx]

Originally posted by Steve Williams
Prost probably would have politicised and marginalised Schumacher the same divisive way he manipulated every team he was in. How come he is a saint now he has gone broke?????

Manipulated every team he was in? You've got to be kidding me...

[holiday]

Originally posted by Rediscoveryx
I remember Derek Warwick being interviewed about driver safety on May 2nd 1994. He said something along the lines of Prost being the only driver out there who valued his own life higher than the WDC. It was a very emotional interview, as Warwick referred to his late brother on a couple of occasions, and it was clear that Warwick had a great deal of respect for Prost. On Adelaide 1989 he emphasised that what Prost did took an enormous amount of courage. To withstand the pressure of racing and to pull in at the end of the first lap takes another sort of courage than taking Eau Rouge flat out.

As Derek Warwick put it; "Prost took an enormous risk, because what was he? A "coward". I'll tell you who the real cowards were. It was us, the other 25 drivers who raced that day. We were the real cowards."

Apart from Satoru Nakajima, I have not heard a single driver say afterwards that the conditions were OK. Even Senna said that the conditions were to bad to race in.

"...takes another sort of courage than taking Eau Rouge flat out..."

Well said

[X-ray]

Originally posted by troyf1
Is it me or has this turned into nothing but a Prost bashing thread. The guy won 4 titles and 51 GP's yet this thread is making him out to look like a wanker.

Wrong. To say that a 4x WDC returning to F1 after a two year break, going on 41, is going to be beaten by one Micheal Schumacher certainly isnt bashing! Its reality.

[SeanValen]

magicprost debuted in 1980.
he had to fight a lot of all-time great divers who were driving great cars.
prost was finished end of '93, worn out.

Agreed, excellent Prost was at the peak of his powers in 1985 say, still kept the peak until the end of 1989, 1990, however the Political goings on at Ferrari really took their toll, 1993, good move to walk away, but Senna was the star in 1993 for those 5 amazing wins and 2nd place in the championship, Prost did what was required, no more, it's perhaps ashame for him Senna took the biggest glory of great driving that year without having the title, Excellent

[Smooth]

Prost was older, and obviously wouldn't have lost his wisdom, but he was a couple years removed from driving, and Schumacher was a back to back WDC, having won the '95 WDC in a car that many describe as 'difficult'. Prost would have probably been beaten just due to those facts. At their peaks, I would think Prost would have stood a better chance of beating Schumacher over a season than Senna, but 1996 was past Prost's prime, and he knew it.

[Zmeej]

The main factor people have left out of this discussion so far is that the 1996 WAS A PIG THAT FELL APART, often.

Schumi was there for the long haul (as we know from what actually happened), and would have stuck it out, no matter what the opposition from Prost.

Prost would have gotten something extra from the car as well, but would have probably been very vocally frustrated at the incredibly poor quality of car Ferrari were asking him to drive.

Schumacher's grim determination in 1996 was most impressive.

Anyone who questions Prost's abilities in the wet simply doesn't know what they are talking about. He was exceptional when it rained. His misfortune was that he raced against a man who was unequalled, supernatural in such conditions, and thus his reputation has been (unfairly) dented in comparison.

As for MS being superior to Senna at Monaco in 1993, that's interesting.

What I remember of the race was that a very talented young man slammed his car into the corners of a circuit beyond the capacities of his machine, and that a legend in a shitty car simply waited for the hardcharging rookie to burn his car out, then outprofessored the Professor, and finished just under a minute ahead of his nearest competitor.

This was the last of Senna's Monaco victories, and probably one of the greatest Grand Prix ever raced.

Final classification
1. Ayrton Senna (McLaren Ford, third fastest lap overall, on lap 59)
2. Damon Hill (Williams Renault)
3. Jean Alesi (Ferrari)
4. Alain Prost (Williams Renault, fastest lap overall, on lap 52)

Second fastest lap of race: Gerhard Berger, Ferrari, on lap 60.
Classification: 14, smacked into armco, lap 70.

Fourth fastest lap time: Michael Schumacher, on lap 18.
Classification: hydraulic failure, on lap 32.

What's that thumping sound? That of a Schumacher fan's forehead colliding into a door's edge. Walked into that one, sonny ;)

[holiday]

Originally posted by Zmeej
The main factor people have left out of this discussion so far is that the 1996 WAS A PIG THAT FELL APART, often.

Schumi was there for the long haul (as we know from what actually happened), and would have stuck it out, no matter what the opposition from Prost.

Prost would have gotten something extra from the car as well, but would have probably been very vocally frustrated at the incredibly poor quality of car Ferrari were asking him to drive.

Schumacher's grim determination in 1996 was most impressive.

Anyone who questions Prost's abilities in the wet simply doesn't know what they are talking about. He was exceptional when it rained. His misfortune was that he raced against a man who was unequalled, supernatural in such conditions, and thus his reputation has been (unfairly) dented in comparison.

As for MS being superior to Senna at Monaco in 1993, that's interesting.

What I remember of the race was that a very talented young man slammed his car into the corners of a circuit beyond the capacities of his machine, and that a legend in a shitty car simply waited for the hardcharging rookie to burn his car out, then outprofessored the Professor, and finished just under a minute ahead of his nearest competitor.

This was the last of Senna's Monaco victories, and probably one of the greatest Grand Prix ever raced.

Final classification
1. Ayrton Senna (McLaren Ford, third fastest lap overall, on lap 59)
2. Damon Hill (Williams Renault)
3. Jean Alesi (Ferrari)
4. Alain Prost (Williams Renault, fastest lap overall, on lap 52)

Second fastest lap of race: Gerhard Berger, Ferrari, on lap 60.
Classification: 14, smacked into armco, lap 70.

Fourth fastest lap time: Michael Schumacher, on lap 18.
Classification: hydraulic failure, on lap 32.

What's that thumping sound? That of a Schumacher fan's forehead colliding into a door's edge. Walked into that one, sonny ;)

Nothing new 'bout that outwitting stuff. We have seen it with the Prof and Senna many times.



-> post: 16-Feb-02 00:35

[Zmeej]

Holiday:up:

Maybe bewitched by the following Senna?

Yeah, yeah, zackly!!!

Well, Ok, maybe I got a bit hyperbolic, but I sure remember finding that race immensely enjoyable, one of Senna's most satisfying victories.

In the middle of a bad-car 1993 season, my perceptions was prob'ly whacked.

[F1Johnny]

Though they crossed paths in the 90s it is unfair to compare Prost and Schumacher based on their meetings. It is best to look at the competition that they have each faced to win their WDC.

5 names each.

Prost - Senna, Mansell, Piquet, Rosberg, Lauda - 11 WDC between them

Schumacher - Hill, Villeneuve, Hakinnen, Coulthard, Senna - 7 WDC between them

Apart from Hakkinen and Senna, Schuey's list seems less impressive than Prosts. Bear in mind too that in the 80s cars were not as dominant as say a Williams in 92, McLaren in 1998 and Ferrari in 2001.

Prost vs Schuey in 1996 at Ferrari - Prost would lose but an 80s Prost vs a 90s Schuey, Prost would teach Schuey how to drive a season and would beat him, unless every race was in torrential rain.

[Rediscoveryx]

The cars were generally not as dominant in the 80's as they are today, but the 1988 McLaren-Honda was perhaps the most dominant car of all time. Nothing could stop it as long as it finished...

[Drifter]

Originally posted by Rene


You must have watched a lot of F1 during the 80's to have that asstute observation...

This isn't about Prost's acheivments in the 80s. My comments may have been blunt and even a little inflammatory ;) but I don't think they were totally unfounded.

[Simioni]

Originally posted by holiday
PS: Didnt AP suffer from a broken back wing in the early parts of the race which led him into the box? Maybe bewitched by the following Senna?

You couldn't illustrate your biased perspective of things better if you tried Monaco 93 was the race in which Prost made a Damon Hill inpersonation, jumping the start and then stalling twice in the pitlane while paying his stop & go. I'm not sure if you remember, but his mistakes were generally linked at the time to the pressure of having Senna actually battling it out with him in the points table (Senna retook the lead of the WDC at that race), despite relying on a car that had up to that point qualified on average 1.5s quicker than Senna's mclaren over the first 6 races.

Monaco 93 was also the race in which Senna had two heavy crashes during practice (one of them during a likely pole-grabbing lap in saturday's qualifying) caused by active suspension glitches, which forced him to race with an injured hand.

Rediscoveryx,

I guess we've already debated over the differences between Senna's veto on Warwick and Prost's veto on Senna. They're not so subtle to be ignored.

[Zmeej]

Thank you Simioni!

Ahem, yes.
Well, now I feel silly, but vindicated, in an airheaded kinda way.
Also wish that I had a tape of the race...

[holiday]

Originally posted by Simioni


You couldn't illustrate your biased perspective of things better if you tried Monaco 93 was the race in which Prost made a Damon Hill inpersonation, jumping the start and then stalling twice in the pitlane while paying his stop & go. I'm not sure if you remember, but his mistakes were generally linked at the time to the pressure of having Senna actually battling it out with him in the points table (Senna retook the lead of the WDC at that race), despite relying on a car that had up to that point qualified on average 1.5s quicker than Senna's mclaren over the first 6 races.

Monaco 93 was also the race in which Senna had two heavy crashes during practice (one of them during a likely pole-grabbing lap in saturday's qualifying) caused by active suspension glitches, which forced him to race with an injured hand.

I checked up and I simply mixed up the races in my memory. It was the 1993 GP Hungary that I actually had in my mind.

Originally posted by Simioni
I'm not sure if you remember...

I am sure You dont remember the season, otherwise you wouldnt have copied the race report on grandprix.com down to the very syllable...

Next time use 'copy and paste' and a link, mr expert.

[Mila]

seeing that only one of them actually had a racing career in 96, I tend to think that MS would have blown away Prost.

by 93 even, Prost was in his I-want-a-no-Senna-clause-but-rumors-are-that-Frank-is-going-to-take-him-on-anyway-so-I'll-sandbag-to-make-my-current-teammate-look-good phase. that is, not really motivated. previously I had liked Prost, but by this point I wished that someone else had taken the second Williams seat—a Hakkinen or Alesi, say-- just to keep him honest.

[Simioni]

Originally posted by holiday


I checked up and I simply mixed up the races in my memory. It was the 1993 GP Hungary that I actually had in my mind.

And that was the 93 hungarian GP from what planet? The one that I watched had Prost starting from the back after stalling his engine again on the grid. At no point whatsoever was he remotely close to Senna

I am sure You dont remember the season, otherwise you wouldnt have copied the race report on grandprix.com down to the very syllable...

Next time use 'copy and paste' and a link, mr expert.

typing www.grandprix.com for the first time ever in my browser, I got this:

There were no changes to the entry for the Monaco Grand Prix and although the Williams-Renaults had been dominant all-season, Ayrton Senna was the master of Monaco and was expected to win a record sixth victory there. Things began badly when Senna crashed heavily on Thursday when his car went out of control after hitting a bump at Ste Devote. This left senna with a bruised thumb but his time remained quickest. There was another accident on Saturday when his McLaren's active suspension system was playing up. In the end Alain Prost was on pole in his Williams with Michael Schumacher second for Benetton (the car having traction-control for the first time). Senna was third with Damon Hill (Williams) fourth ahead of an inspired Jean Alesi (Ferrari), Riccardo Patrese (Benetton), Gerhard Berger (Ferrari), Karl Wendlinger (Sauber) and Michael Andretti (McLaren).

Senna was not expecting to win because of his poor grid position and his sore thumb but he made a good start and stayed third behind Prost and Schumacher. Then came word that Prost had jumped the start and was to be given a 10-sec stop-go penalty. He stopped at the end of the 12th lap. To make matters worse he then stalled the car as he tried to rejoin and so ended up at the back of the field.

This left Schumacher with a comfortable lead over Senna and the rest. On lap 33, however, Schumacher went out with an hydraulic failure and so Senna was leading with a 15 second advantage over Hill. Senna stayed ahead for the rest of the race leading Hill home. He had survived an attack by Berger (which had put the Ferrari out) and so Alesi was third ahead of the recovering Prost and survivors Christian Fittipaldi (Minardi) and Martin Brundle (Ligier-Renault).

What is the similarity of that with my post other than me, unlike you, knowing what had actually happened? Throwing lame accusations hardly excuse you of missing track of the facts, again.