114 replies to this topic

[Brian O Flaherty]

This from grandprix.com

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HOW fast do you need to be going to receive a $103,600 speeding ticket? In Finland, it depends on how much you earn. Nokia senior executive Anssi Vanjoki was busted on his Harley Davidson doing 47mph in a 31mph zone by local officials, and was assessed the six digit fine.

Vanjoki is challenging the fine, however, because it was based on his 1999 income, which was significantly higher than his current income due to the surge in the tech sector during the late nineties. The Nokia exec sold a large amount of Nokia options in '99, inflating his income, but because the company's stock price has dropped along with the rest of the tech market, it has not been worth it to Vanjoki to sell more options recently. His day in Helsinki district court will come May 15th.

The sliding scale has its supporters and its critics. Many wealthy Finns consider the fines robbery, and few understand how a fine is calculated because of its complexity.

When a driver is caught speeding, the officer uses his Nokia phone to enter some information, like the offender's social security number and the severity of the offense, and the officer quickly receives back the amount of the fine to be given.

The staggering equation for the fine begins with the offender's monthly income, which is discounted by the equivalent of about $235, and divided by 60 to calculate the daily disposable income of the offender. A small amount is subtracted for dependents, like children or a spouse, and added for other assets like real estate, to come up with the "day fine". Depending on the severity of the offense, determined by the officer, the "day fine" is multiplied by a number ranging from 1 to 20, and the result is the fine the offender must pay.

Vanjoki's fine is believed to be the largest ever assessed in Finland, topping Internet mogul Jaakko Rytsola's $71,000 ticket. It would be interesting to see what sort of fine Finns Mika Hakkinen or Kimi Raikkonen could manage.

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Whaddya think of that ???? I'd move somewhere else

[Foxbat]

Isn't it odd that those mibile phone/internet people are always in such a hurry? Perhaps they don't trust their own products ;)

[Scudetto]

Kinda of makes it curious that there are so many prominent racing drivers that are Finns when the country so serverly punishes aggressive driving. If I lived there, I'd be broke by now.

[A3]

I look at it in 2 ways:

Honest:
Everybody should be fined the same for the same offence.



Motorsports opinion involved:

When I have fun with my car or bike and get a speeding ticket as a result, it's going to hurt me. Price for having fun.

A rich guy who can already afford much nicer toys than me to speed with. It's only fair that it has to hurt him too, so I say: Take all his money !! And give his harley to me !

[Brian O Flaherty]

Originally posted by A3
I look at it in 2 ways:

Honest:
Everybody should be fined the same for the same offence.

Exactly. This is classic discrimination. If I kill someone at that speed and he kills someone at that speed we'd both get x amount of years in prison. It's purely to generate revenue IMO.

Makes it all the more remarkable that there's so many bloody quick Finn's around

Maybe they get out of the country ASAP to go to more forgiving climes

[Todd]

Sounds to me like you can do whatever you want in Finland, provided you don't earn a living. There are some great politics involved in a government that punishes people for their success.

[Gemini]

No wonder so many fast driving Finns go succesful in all forms of motorracing.... no chance to feed speed animal on regular roads...

[smallgod]

Originally posted by Scudetto
Kinda of makes it curious that there are so many prominent racing drivers that are Finns when the country so serverly punishes aggressive driving. If I lived there, I'd be broke by now.

Before they make the big time, driver's salaries don't warrant fining them, therefore it incentivises them....
When they make the big time, the go to Formula Nippon

[Supa Fly]

it COSTS the government to send ppl to jail, even when considering all the nice number plates/road signs they may make ;) (apart from america, which has the worst jail conditions of any medc, so it may cost a dime a year to ruin one u.s citizens life) i guess its an interesting money making scheme that falls into their crime/police budget...

as for the number of flying finns, isnt it because they learn to drive from 13 (well a young age anyway), and happen to drive on rally courses (the typical finnish 'b road';))...so they develop some damn fine car control

[smallgod]

Right, there goes the kidding around...

[FrankB]

Originally posted by A3

Honest:
Everybody should be fined the same for the same offence.

If loss of a driver's licence is a possible penalty, then I agree that everyone should be treated the same.

If however, only monetary penalties are available then they should relate to an individual's available income. If fines are pitched at a level to hurt people on the lowest incomes, then the more wealthy people will simply buy the right to ignore all speed limits.

[speedy]

There's an ageold saying " people ashore are wise when there happens an accident at sea ". I think it is utterly stupid to shoot ones mouth without bothering to find out what's behind the news. I live in Finland and know how the fining system goes - it is based on your net earnings, so basically it hurts everyone as bad if they are caught speeding. But I think a 200 $ fine for a person whose net income is 1000 $ /month hurts him/her much more than a fine of 100000$ for a person whose net income/month is 500000 $. I have been amused to see the reactions abroad, a storm in a waterglass, the whole story is out of context just to make selling headlines. Such a fine for a person who earns sums that can't be understood by a usual citizen surely doesn't put that person into hunger queue. Nobody has mentioned that the person in question should not have speeded in the first place - it was nobody else's but his own fault.

[CONOSUR]

So, if you have your own business, and take a loss, resulting in money out-of-pocket at the end of the year, would they pay you to speed?

[LMG]

Just a question to our Finnish friends on the BB:

How do foreigners get fined for speeding in Finland?


I think the practise of income-based fines for speeding is insane. When someone get a 100k ticket the legal system will start to lose its credibility.

/LMG

[HP]

Originally posted by FrankB


If loss of a driver's licence is a possible penalty, then I agree that everyone should be treated the same.

If however, only monetary penalties are available then they should relate to an individual's available income. If fines are pitched at a level to hurt people on the lowest incomes, then the more wealthy people will simply buy the right to ignore all speed limits.

Total inconsistent application if you ask me. Treat people individually, but the same way before the law. BTW. If we talk about loss of license, it will hurt rich people most like less than someone who is a truck driver and is dependent on his license for income. Laws are almost always unfair.

[Todd]

Don't worry. Once all the smart people have left there won't be any $100K fines for driving 75 kph.

Maybe you should charge rich people for everything on a sliding scale? Then, they wouldn't be able to have any better lives than lazy, stupid and worthless people do, and wouldn't that be fair?

[Cocco_Bill]

Originally posted by Todd
Sounds to me like you can do whatever you want in Finland, provided you don't earn a living. There are some great politics involved in a government that punishes people for their success.

Poor guy.

After his punishment he only has some $ 11.5 million left from his income that year.

[HP]

Originally posted by Todd
Don't worry. Once all the smart people have left there won't be any $100K fines for driving 75 kph.

Maybe you should charge rich people for everything on a sliding scale? Then, they wouldn't be able to have any better lives than lazy, stupid and worthless people do, and wouldn't that be fair?

Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Monaco and similar places in Europe, are thankful for such bright government policies. Ever wondered why so many rich foreigners live in those places?

[speedy]

To a certain level the ticket is the same for everyone, but if you exceed the speed limit more than 20 km/h, then you will be fined based on your net income (which the police can easily check, no cheating is possible nowadays), but if you have no income, you'll however have to pay the amount that is fixed for everyone (If I remember right, there are two categories, about 60$ and about 120$). I'm not sure how they deal with foreigners and heavy speeding, actually I'm not even interested in that. All I know is that the law here is the same for everyone living here and I have no problems with that.

[HP]

Originally posted by Cocco_Bill


Poor guy.

After his punishment he only has some $ 11.5 million left from his income that year.

IMO, the government is robbing his own people.

[HP]

Originally posted by speedy
then you will be fined based on your net income (which the police can easily check, no cheating is possible nowadays),

Wow, so the police can give a phone call and knows how much income you have. In many countries, you'd have a big scandal if different branches of the government are allowed to share data such freely. We call this a "police-state". Glad I don't need to live there.

[LMG]

Originally posted by speedy
All I know is that the law here is the same for everyone living here and I have no problems with that.

I didn't mean to offend you or any other Finn or so. Sorry!

Still it seems like a pretty extreme measure to get rid of excessive speeding, maybe it works if the rich guys are more likely to go fast.

No wonder Mika moved to Monaco :

[thornwell]

I find it kind of humourous that a Nokia exec gets busted by a Nokia wielding traffic cop.

That's poetic justice, don't you think?

I think for certain applications, such as this one, it sort of makes good sense for sliding scale fines when they exceed a certain limit.

[speedy]

Todd,

the smart people here have all got their education free of charge, we taxpayers have paid their education, everyone has the same possibilities, studying in university is free here. Of course there are always the greedy ones who earn well above an average street man and they move to places with small taxes and fines- but when they get old, they come back home dying. You see, that you can earn whatever you wish, but you can't have that with you in your grave, it's all vain People who have values live a happy life, I bet a happier one than the greedy ones

[speedy]

HP,

anyone for that matter can check what another person earns, the yearly tax lists are public in this country. It has nothing to do with a police state.

[FrankB]

Originally posted by HP

Total inconsistent application if you ask me. Treat people individually, but the same way before the law. BTW. If we talk about loss of license, it will hurt rich people most like less than someone who is a truck driver and is dependent on his license for income. Laws are almost always unfair.

But I was being consistent - everyone loses their licence or everyone loses the same percentage of their available income. What is inconsistent is to fine someone on a low wage a month's salary, when to someone else that same amount of money can be earned in a day.

As for someone who needs their licence to earn a living - the "professional" driver - the onus is with them (as with everyone else) to drive in such a way that their licence (and livelihood) are not threatened.

[HP]

Originally posted by speedy
HP,

anyone for that matter can check what another person earns, the yearly tax lists are public in this country. It has nothing to do with a police state.

I get your line of thinking, but I don't want to live in a country such as this.

[speedy]

HP,

fair enough - after a few years I'll be 50 and I have been to about 40 other countries and I think Finland still is a good place to live your life. Every country has it's good and bad sides, we are all free to go where ever we want to. What is meaningful for one may not be that important for another one.

[HP]

Originally posted by FrankB


As for someone who needs their licence to earn a living - the "professional" driver - the onus is with them (as with everyone else) to drive in such a way that their licence (and livelihood) are not threatened.

Well, the more you are on the road, the greater the chance to get a ticket, accidentially. In my home country, they place speed radars sometimes at insane places. Like very step downhill roads, if you don't pay close attention to the speedometer (instead of doing the right thing and paying attention on the traffic), you get a ticket. That is dangerous! Not the speeding, as it happens to any vehicle (they caught bicycles ). You have to slam on the brakes there in any case. Plus a good friend of mine would have to tell an interesting tale.

I think a better way would be to send people to attend (and pay for themselves) a day of driving school. Not only will people be reminded on traffic laws, the driving school can help to refine driving skills. Plus it's for everbody the same relative loss of finances (or a day holiday lost). That's a proactive solution.

As soon as money is in it for the government, the system will be abused. In case you are not aware of it. In most developed countries, the police has a certain budget income allocated from fines. They need to meet the quota. That means if the budget isn't up the were it should be, beofre the end of the fiskal year, they do hand out more fines toward the end of the year, and well, that's not the purpose of fines if you ask me.

[raceday]

I would not express it like Todd did, but i do agree that it is preposterous to fine someone 100k $ for speeding, and I do think it is generally a tendency to punish people who succeed with this sort of thing and god knows how many taxes and the outrageously progressive scales they have figured out. I’m pretty sure that this whole policy is more a political thing than an economical. It’s selling well to say that the rich pays more and it appeals to a large group of people they depend on for votes. I’m convinced that if this group of really successful people instead would have to pay reasonable amount in tax, they would stay to a higher degree and generate more for the country all in all then what the case is now with some staying and some going abroad.

I'm off to the after work pub!

Cheers!

[HP]

Originally posted by raceday
I would not express it like Todd did, but i do agree that it is preposterous to fine someone 100k $ for speeding, and I do think it is generally a tendency to punish people who succeed with this sort of thing and god knows how many taxes and the outrageously progressive scales they have figured out. I’m pretty sure that this whole policy is more a political thing than an economical. It’s selling well to say that the rich pays more and it appeals to a large group of people they depend on for votes. I’m convinced that if this group of really successful people instead would have to pay reasonable amount in tax, they would stay to a higher degree and generate more for the country all in all then what the case is now with some staying and some going abroad.

I'm off to the after work pub!

Cheers!

What is really silly with some governments is that they forget that they are there to serve the nation. The nation is people. If the govrnment takes money from people away in questionable ways, then I suspect, the government needs some serious downsizing. Some countries have recognized this, and there are hardly anymore government employes like in older times. In those countries government people have to be successful like other people too, to get on with their careers. This helps as a reminder how to treat successful people.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by A3
I look at it in 2 ways:

Honest:
Everybody should be fined the same for the same offence.

Yes and no. On the surface it would seem like it, but when you think about it a bit more you may realize that there is another way of looking at it. Imagine you are Bill Gates, you can afford the fines, they don't hurt you one bit if they're, say, $100 for the offense. You can break the law as many times as you want, as often as you want, it is like you're above the law. Thus it can be argued that the fine should be a function of one's income so that every offender is hurt by the fine.

Personally I think that the fine should be a function of income, but not so ridiculously as it is right now in Finland.

[mikabest]

Originally posted by HP

Wow, so the police can give a phone call and knows how much income you have.

HP,
No phone call is needed. Nothing that antique! The police have an online connection to the tax database if I'm not mistaken.

yours,
ever so biased MIKABEST

[mikabest]

I just checked that Vanjoki's earned income year 2000 was only about 380.000 USD and his capital income same year was about 615.000 USD. And those are his gross income before taxes.

yours,
ever so biased MIKABEST

[A3]

Originally posted by HSJ


Yes and no. On the surface it would seem like it, but when you think about it a bit more you may realize that there is another way of looking at it.

That's why I said: "I look at it in 2 ways".

[z bleebox]

let me make a quick statement.

For the reading of this -very- interesting post it seems to me that European born posters have a different approach that US ones

what do you think?

[John B]

My question is, does this system apply to all criminal offenses or just speeding? If it's just speeding, then it's a pretty disproportionate penalty for the offense. My guess is that people accused of all kinds of felonies have been fined or let out on bail for less than that fellow was ticketed for....

[RiverRunner]

Here in the SoCal (states write their own traffic laws) area we have either/or.It's a fine and/or jail time/community service,with a maximum amount of jail time written into the law.If this gent has a choice of ten days in the graybar hotel or paying the fine,I know which one I'd choose....ten days picking up trash at 10K a whack would be fine by me.

[Williams]

If the object is to deter people from speeding, you don't need to use money. One way is the demerit point system. A better way is to take the car away for a time porportional to the amount over the speed limit, and according to one's past record. Say for 10KPH over, you pay a fine. 15 KPH over, lose the car for a weekend. 20 over, lose it for a week. On the fourth offense of 10KM over, lose it for a month. That hurts everyone equally.

But of course none of this works if the object is to make money from speeding fines...

[SlateGray]

Originally posted by Todd

Maybe you should charge rich people for everything on a sliding scale? Then, they wouldn't be able to have any better lives than lazy, stupid and worthless people do, and wouldn't that be fair?

Insight into the inner workings of a mind on the right.

All people with a low income are "lazy, stupid and worthless." Unlike rich people who are worth much more.

What a classless bigoted little act you have there!

Off to the ovens with all these "lazy, stupid and worthless" low income PEOPLE

Looks good on ya Rush!

[speedy]

Every country has laws which differ from the ones you have in your country - that's why I think it is stupid to shoot down the laws of another country without some real background knowledge. I can assure you that this affair has been discussed in depth in the Finnish parliament, I followed the discussion and the outcome was that the law basically was regarded correct by all parties, but at the time the law was completed no-one could imagine that a private person could have such enormous income - that was before the options and the mobile/net business . The law will certainly be moderated so that the income will be looked from a longer period than just one peak year and an average of say 3 last years will be taken into account. Even now the mentioned person can take his case to court and I believe he will get a much smaller fine because his income a year after the peak year does not contain the option extra.

You there in USA also have laws which most people here in Europe feel are really stupid - a case in which a person who burnt his/her tongue after drinking too hot coffee at Macdonalds comes to mind, she/he got a crazy sum of money for that, something like millions of $$$$. Now I don't shoot that down because I don't know the backgrounds, but put that in perspective with this case in Finland and think a little before shouting too loud.

[stevew]

Note to self: When driving in Finland, always go at least 5mph under the speed limit. Of course, I live in Indiana (USA) and am unemployed, so the chances of that happening anytime soon is fairly remote. On the other hand, if I did visit Finland, I could speed like crazy because I have no income!

Personally, I think that basing a traffic violation fine on the offender's income is obscene. It's a blatant means of generating "revenue". What's the difference between a rich person speeding or a poor person speeding? They're both equal "hazards" regardless of their financial resources.

However, I would like to see some kind of scale based on the weight of the vehicle and the number of occupants.

The theory being that a speeding 6,000lb SUV is likely to cause more damage to innocents in an accident than say, a 2,600lb compact car. Also, the fine should take into account the number of people in the vehicle. If the driver is the only one in the vehicle and say, the fine is $100, then multiply that $100 times the number of people riding with him (driver only pays, of course) If there are three passengers in the car, then the fine would be $400.

[CONOSUR]

Originally posted by mikabest
I just checked that Vanjoki's earned income year 2000 was only about 380.000 USD and his capital income same year was about 615.000 USD. And those are his gross income before taxes.

OK - If this guy earned approximately $1,000,000, is 10% of one's gross income a reasonable fine for speeding!!

Imagine some hardworking schmo who earns only $20,000 per year and has to pay a $2,000 fine for speeding...

And just the fact that anyone could have access to that type of information about someone else is just way too much of a big brother type state for free thinking people who value their privacy. You can have it.

[Cocco_Bill]

Originally posted by CONOSUR


OK - If this guy earned approximately $1,000,000, is 10% of one's gross income a reasonable fine for speeding!!

His income for 1999 was about $11.6 million, the fine was based on his 1999 income.

[A3]

Originally posted by Todd
Maybe you should charge rich people for everything on a sliding scale? Then, they wouldn't be able to have any better lives than lazy, stupid and worthless people do, and wouldn't that be fair?

Thanks for reminding me what a true bastard you are, todd.

[Cociani]

Eat the poor Todd That's the kind of attitude which foments revolution. If you are too arogant on the playground about how many marbles you have ammased sooner or later sombody will steal them all away from you.

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by SlateGray



Insight into the inner workings of a mind on the right.

All people with a low income are "lazy, stupid and worthless." Unlike rich people who are worth much more.

What a classless bigoted little act you have there!

Off to the ovens with all these "lazy, stupid and worthless" low income PEOPLE

Looks good on ya Rush!

I can't help you SlateGray if you choose to take Todd's comments out of the context they clearly were based in. No where does he say POOR people are "lazy, stupid and worthless". And the oven comment is out of line and to be honest I'm shocked you allowed it to remain on this fine bb.

The fact is, Finland chooses to punish people on such a sliding scale because they are truly a socialist society. I'm surprised Finland is as wealthy as it is today with such a farcical, outdated regime that it currently has. Capitalism at its best provides equal opportunity and at its worst provides an unequal share of blessings. Sorry if you can't see it like it is.

[SlateGray]

Originally posted by KinetiK


I can't help you SlateGray if you choose to take Todd's comments out of the context they clearly were based in. No where does he say POOR people are "lazy, stupid and worthless". And the oven comment is out of line and to be honest I'm shocked you allowed it to remain on this fine bb.

The fact is, Finland chooses to punish people on such a sliding scale because they are truly a socialist society. I'm surprised Finland is as wealthy as it is today with such a farcical, outdated regime that it currently has. Capitalism at its best provides equal opportunity and at its worst provides an unequal share of blessings. Sorry if you can't see it like it is.

You missed the point.

Todd said

"Maybe you should charge rich people for everything on a sliding scale? Then, they wouldn't be able to have any better lives than lazy, stupid and worthless people do, and wouldn't that be fair? "

That statment clearly implies that rich people are somehow worth more than poor people, I don't mean in dollars and cents,
If you can't see that then "I can't help you".

I agree the ovens comment may be a bit over the top.

The comments where not directed at Finland or any other country.

[Cociani]

Capitalism in my oppinion is not really an ideology but rather is a reality. Profit will allways motivate people to do things more than almost anything else. I believe the role of government is to place reasonable restrictions on capitalism, in order to create a more fair society and to provide essential services too all citizens. These limits include advertising laws, licensing, environmental and labour laws. Un-restricted a pure capitalist economy allows the most succsessful to destroy all competition and create monopolies, a horrible situation for citizens and consumers. If you take government control to the extreme you get precicely the same result only the state owns the monopolies. Every country deceids what it values and regulates their ecomomies accordingly. There is no right or wrong way, a reasonable way to judge a country is not by what kind of ideology its leadership has but rather by how well run and fair everything is for the citezenry. I personally have no set political ideology. I believe decisions should be made on an issue to issue basis and not on some pre-formed kneejerk reaction. Ideologies negate the posibility of reasonable pragmatic thought IMO.

[Makarias]

The Finnish fining system is OK to me, but then again I of course am fairly lazy, stupid and worthless... As long as it can be regulated afterwards so it won't get totally out of proportions, it's a reasonable way to keep very rich people from speeding.

Apart from the climate, I think the Nordic countries generally are very liveable places. Our politicians usually don't try to kill each other, and we even have elections once in a while. Could be worse.

The reason for why Finnish racing drivers live abroad just might be that they WORK abroad. dUh.