I am about to construct a Parc Borèly, Marseilles, circuit to run a mid-1950s slot race on. (I realise that they did not run slot-races in Parc Borèly - but I call it Scalextric-licence!)
It led me to wonder what sort of racing took place there, and who took part in those races.
(I know that in 1952 Farina held the lap record in a Ferrari at 77.99 mph.)
Who raced at Marseilles?
Started by
Barry Boor
, Feb 15 2002 23:11
19 replies to this topic
#3
Vitesse2
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Posted 15 February 2002 - 23:33
1952 was the last race at Marseille, a three-hour race for F2 cars.
The usual suspects - Ferrari 500s and 166F2s, Gordini 15s and 16s, HWMs, Plate 4CLT/48s, plus Stuck's AFM, Whitehead's Alta, Bayol's OSCA and Martin in the Jicey.
Ascari won in a 500 with Bira and Manzon second in a Gordini T16 and Claes third in a Gordini T15 (have you got a yellow Gordini?
)
I haven't checked but the full result is probably on Stefan's site
The usual suspects - Ferrari 500s and 166F2s, Gordini 15s and 16s, HWMs, Plate 4CLT/48s, plus Stuck's AFM, Whitehead's Alta, Bayol's OSCA and Martin in the Jicey.
Ascari won in a 500 with Bira and Manzon second in a Gordini T16 and Claes third in a Gordini T15 (have you got a yellow Gordini?
)I haven't checked but the full result is probably on Stefan's site
#4
Barry Boor
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Posted 15 February 2002 - 23:42
No yellow Gordini. 
Only 4 blue ones. I have Johnny Claes in a yellow Ferrari 500/625.
Only 4 blue ones. I have Johnny Claes in a yellow Ferrari 500/625.
#5
Wolf
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Posted 15 February 2002 - 23:49
Don't tell me You have AFM 4- Küchen and Jicey-Veritas, Barry?!? 
BTW, does anyone have pic and/or info about the latter?
BTW, does anyone have pic and/or info about the latter?
#6
Barry Boor
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Posted 16 February 2002 - 08:30
Errrm..... actually, Wolf, No! My hobby doesn't work like that. I don't try to recreate actual races; I just build a replica track and then enter those cars from the 34 I have from that period (actually, rather later in the case of Marseilles) that I think may have bothered with that particular race.
Seeing that it has come up, here is my official entry for the Marseilles Grand Prix:
10 P. Collins Maserati 250F (Owen Organization)
14 M. Trintignant Ferrari 555 (works)
16 A. de Portago Ferrari 555 (works)
24 S. Moss Maserati 250F (S. Moss)
30 E. Castellotti Lancia D50 (works)
36 H. Schell Maserati 250F (works)
38 J. Behra Maserati 250F (works)
50 A. Pillette Gordini 32 (works)
52 R. Manzon Gordini 16 (works)
54 E. Bayol Gordini 16 (works)
56 H. da Silva Ramos Gordini 16 (works)
58 L. Rosier Ferrari 500/625 (L. Rosier)
64 R. Fischer Ferrari 500/625 (R. Fischer)
70 G. Scarlatti Ferrari 500/625 (G. Scarlatti)
I know this is a right old mish mash of cars from across about a 3 or 4 year period in racing history, but.... well, it's MY hobby, so.....
Seeing that it has come up, here is my official entry for the Marseilles Grand Prix:
10 P. Collins Maserati 250F (Owen Organization)
14 M. Trintignant Ferrari 555 (works)
16 A. de Portago Ferrari 555 (works)
24 S. Moss Maserati 250F (S. Moss)
30 E. Castellotti Lancia D50 (works)
36 H. Schell Maserati 250F (works)
38 J. Behra Maserati 250F (works)
50 A. Pillette Gordini 32 (works)
52 R. Manzon Gordini 16 (works)
54 E. Bayol Gordini 16 (works)
56 H. da Silva Ramos Gordini 16 (works)
58 L. Rosier Ferrari 500/625 (L. Rosier)
64 R. Fischer Ferrari 500/625 (R. Fischer)
70 G. Scarlatti Ferrari 500/625 (G. Scarlatti)
I know this is a right old mish mash of cars from across about a 3 or 4 year period in racing history, but.... well, it's MY hobby, so.....
#7
Roger Clark
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Posted 16 February 2002 - 09:30
Why no Ascari, Fangio or Hawthorn?
Farina's fastest lap in the 1952 race was remarkable. His fastest time in practice had been 1m 22.3s. Ascari's pole position was 1m 17.8s. Farina is creditted with fastest race lap of 1m 15.4, almost 7 secs faster than he achieved in practice. Looking at the autocourse lap chart, which was supplied by the organisers, the fastest recorded lap by Farina is 1m 16.4. This came in the middle of a stream of high 17 and low 18s. I can find only one lap of Farina's below 1m 17 (1m 16.9), let alone below 1m16. Ascari's fastest lap was 1m16.6s, with several below 1m17s.
Farina's fastest lap in the 1952 race was remarkable. His fastest time in practice had been 1m 22.3s. Ascari's pole position was 1m 17.8s. Farina is creditted with fastest race lap of 1m 15.4, almost 7 secs faster than he achieved in practice. Looking at the autocourse lap chart, which was supplied by the organisers, the fastest recorded lap by Farina is 1m 16.4. This came in the middle of a stream of high 17 and low 18s. I can find only one lap of Farina's below 1m 17 (1m 16.9), let alone below 1m16. Ascari's fastest lap was 1m16.6s, with several below 1m17s.
#8
Rob29
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Posted 16 February 2002 - 09:44
I recomend 'Les Grand Prix de Provence et de Marseille' by Maurice Louche.Lots of nice (albet black & white) photos.Minor french races were held there untill 1955.
#9
Barry Boor
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Posted 16 February 2002 - 10:23
O.K, Roger, the reasoning goes thus:
No Ascari because as it is a relatively minor race by F1 standards, Lancia decided to send just a token entry and being the younger driver, Castellotti seemed the obvious choice.
No Fangio because as the race is a round of the French championship, Maserati decided just to have French drivers (Schell being part French, of course.)
No Hawthorn because the Argentine Grand Prix is coming up and Ferrari could only spare 2 cars for this relatively minor event. Trintignant and de Portago were chosen to drive because one is French and the other comes from Spain, to which Marseilles is fairly near.
I know, I know, it's all a load of old cobblers but I enjoy it!
No Ascari because as it is a relatively minor race by F1 standards, Lancia decided to send just a token entry and being the younger driver, Castellotti seemed the obvious choice.
No Fangio because as the race is a round of the French championship, Maserati decided just to have French drivers (Schell being part French, of course.)
No Hawthorn because the Argentine Grand Prix is coming up and Ferrari could only spare 2 cars for this relatively minor event. Trintignant and de Portago were chosen to drive because one is French and the other comes from Spain, to which Marseilles is fairly near.
I know, I know, it's all a load of old cobblers but I enjoy it!
#10
Roger Clark
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Posted 16 February 2002 - 13:33
Makes perfect sense to me Barry.
My money's on Trintingnant. Moss and Castellotti battling for the lead in the early stages, Castellotti crashes under pressure from Moss who leads until about lap 100 (I assume this race is of reasonable length). THen the Maserati breaks (it's been leaking oil for many laps and the bearings finally give out). Meanwhile Behra and Schell have been fighting for third, later second and to see who is really number two for Maserati. THey tangle at the long corner before the start/finish line and both call in at the pits. Behra leaps from his car, thumps Schell, and storms off to vast applause from the crowd. Schell continues but is disoriented and crashes at the next corner. There are rumours that this is nothing to do with Behra's punch but Harry had seen a girl in the crowd and wanted an excuse to speak to her. Meanwhile, Trintingnant has been driving steadily on and inherits victory, very popular, particularly following his stunning record win in the Mille Miglia the previous week.
Please let me know if I'm right.
My money's on Trintingnant. Moss and Castellotti battling for the lead in the early stages, Castellotti crashes under pressure from Moss who leads until about lap 100 (I assume this race is of reasonable length). THen the Maserati breaks (it's been leaking oil for many laps and the bearings finally give out). Meanwhile Behra and Schell have been fighting for third, later second and to see who is really number two for Maserati. THey tangle at the long corner before the start/finish line and both call in at the pits. Behra leaps from his car, thumps Schell, and storms off to vast applause from the crowd. Schell continues but is disoriented and crashes at the next corner. There are rumours that this is nothing to do with Behra's punch but Harry had seen a girl in the crowd and wanted an excuse to speak to her. Meanwhile, Trintingnant has been driving steadily on and inherits victory, very popular, particularly following his stunning record win in the Mille Miglia the previous week.
Please let me know if I'm right.
#11
Barry Boor
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Posted 16 February 2002 - 14:21
EXCELLENT, ROGER 
Watch this thread, I'll keep you posted.
Watch this thread, I'll keep you posted.
#12
Barry Boor
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Posted 16 February 2002 - 18:44
What a funny little track! It has only one straight, otherwise it's just corner after corner after corner.
Anyway, here is the grid following this afternoon's 2 practice sessions:
14 M. TRINTIGNANT FERRARI 555 1.17.798
24 S. MOSS MASERATI 250F 1.18.084
16 A. de PORTAGO FERRARI 555 1.19.086
36 J. BEHRA MASERATI 250F 1.19.157
30 E. CASTELLOTTI LANCIA D50 1.19.701
52 R. MANZON GORDINI 16 1.21.461
38 H. SCHELL MASERATI 250F 1.21.733
58 L. ROSIER FERRARI 625 1.22.320
10 P. COLLINS MASERATI 250F 1.22.491
56 H. da SILVA RAMOS GORDINI 16 1.22.592
54 E. BAYOL GORDINI 16 1.23.278
70 G. SCARLATTI FERRARI 625 1.23.522
64 R. FISCHER FERRARI 625 1.27.342
50 A. PILETTE GORDINI 32 1.27.929
I have decided to make the race 100 laps.
Anyway, here is the grid following this afternoon's 2 practice sessions:
14 M. TRINTIGNANT FERRARI 555 1.17.798
24 S. MOSS MASERATI 250F 1.18.084
16 A. de PORTAGO FERRARI 555 1.19.086
36 J. BEHRA MASERATI 250F 1.19.157
30 E. CASTELLOTTI LANCIA D50 1.19.701
52 R. MANZON GORDINI 16 1.21.461
38 H. SCHELL MASERATI 250F 1.21.733
58 L. ROSIER FERRARI 625 1.22.320
10 P. COLLINS MASERATI 250F 1.22.491
56 H. da SILVA RAMOS GORDINI 16 1.22.592
54 E. BAYOL GORDINI 16 1.23.278
70 G. SCARLATTI FERRARI 625 1.23.522
64 R. FISCHER FERRARI 625 1.27.342
50 A. PILETTE GORDINI 32 1.27.929
I have decided to make the race 100 laps.
#13
David McKinney
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Posted 16 February 2002 - 19:33
Great showing by the Supersqualo!
And, although no doubt overlooked by most reporters at the meeting, a fine performance by Scarlatti. Didn't he always race the Scuderia Centro-Sud Ferrari with a 2-litre engine?
And, although no doubt overlooked by most reporters at the meeting, a fine performance by Scarlatti. Didn't he always race the Scuderia Centro-Sud Ferrari with a 2-litre engine?
#14
Ray Bell
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Posted 18 February 2002 - 20:20
Originally posted by Roger Clark
Makes perfect sense to me Barry....
..... Behra leaps from his car, thumps Schell, and storms off .....
Just when I was thinking you were all mad, too....
Now you rewrite one of the great driver friendships of the fifties!
#15
Barry Boor
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Posted 25 February 2002 - 21:50
I post this message with profound apologies to 99.9% of T.N.Effers who probably think my hobby is just on the far side of crazy. 
However, for the other 0.1% (thanks, Roger!) here is the result of my Marseilles Grand Prix.
1. Castellotti - Lancia D50 - 2h 19m 04.72 secs
2. Moss - Maserati 250F - 2h 19m 25.90 secs
3. Trintignant - Ferrari 555 - 2h 20m 24.28 secs
4. de Portago - Ferrari 555 - 99 laps
5. Collins - Maserati 250F - 98 laps
6. Manzon - Gordini 16 - 97 laps
7. Scarlatti - Ferrari 500/625 - 97 laps
8. Bayol - Gordini 16 - 95 laps
9. Schell - Maserati 250F - 92 laps - not running at finish..... and therein lies the story of the race!
Schell had come through from the third row of the grid to challenge Castellotti over the second half of the race, taking the lead briefly around lap 70. Although Castellotti regained the lead by about lap 80, the last 10 laps looked really interesting. Then, on lap 89 the Maserati began to misfire, rolling to a halt halfway round lap 93. Very frustrating!
The Ferraris simply could not stand the pace and Moss' car, though quick, was no match for the Lancia - surely the nearest ever F1 car to having a wheel at each corner! BOY does it change direction well!
Behra's Maser was never at the races and retired from 5th place on lap 65.
The only accident was Rosier's Ferrari rolling on lap 12.
Castellotti posted the fastest lap in 1m 19.544.
Roll on the next Pre-historic race!
However, for the other 0.1% (thanks, Roger!) here is the result of my Marseilles Grand Prix.1. Castellotti - Lancia D50 - 2h 19m 04.72 secs
2. Moss - Maserati 250F - 2h 19m 25.90 secs
3. Trintignant - Ferrari 555 - 2h 20m 24.28 secs
4. de Portago - Ferrari 555 - 99 laps
5. Collins - Maserati 250F - 98 laps
6. Manzon - Gordini 16 - 97 laps
7. Scarlatti - Ferrari 500/625 - 97 laps
8. Bayol - Gordini 16 - 95 laps
9. Schell - Maserati 250F - 92 laps - not running at finish..... and therein lies the story of the race!
Schell had come through from the third row of the grid to challenge Castellotti over the second half of the race, taking the lead briefly around lap 70. Although Castellotti regained the lead by about lap 80, the last 10 laps looked really interesting. Then, on lap 89 the Maserati began to misfire, rolling to a halt halfway round lap 93. Very frustrating!
The Ferraris simply could not stand the pace and Moss' car, though quick, was no match for the Lancia - surely the nearest ever F1 car to having a wheel at each corner! BOY does it change direction well!
Behra's Maser was never at the races and retired from 5th place on lap 65.
The only accident was Rosier's Ferrari rolling on lap 12.
Castellotti posted the fastest lap in 1m 19.544.
Roll on the next Pre-historic race!
#16
FEV
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Posted 25 February 2002 - 22:23
Make that 0.2% Barry I'm sure you races are a LOT more interesting than the one I'm going to give two hours of my life next sunday !
Sorry to ask this stupid question, but I am not familiar at all with slot cars : how do you do the races, timing, etc. ?
I'm sure you races are a LOT more interesting than the one I'm going to give two hours of my life next sunday !Sorry to ask this stupid question, but I am not familiar at all with slot cars : how do you do the races, timing, etc. ?
#17
Barry Boor
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Posted 25 February 2002 - 22:30
I won't bore you with it here, FEV, but if you go to
http://www.bboor.fre...te/racing1.html
you will find a summary of how it's done. And then if you want more !!!!! look at
http://www.bboor.fre....co.uk/Website/
Well, you DID ask!
http://www.bboor.fre...te/racing1.html
you will find a summary of how it's done. And then if you want more !!!!! look at
http://www.bboor.fre....co.uk/Website/
Well, you DID ask!
#18
Wolf
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Posted 25 February 2002 - 22:30
Thanks, Barry. I was worried if there was some first lap pile-up (de Portago's over-enthusiastic passing attempt on Castelotti, both of them being chased by Moss and Tintignant), involving some spectator injuries (including You ;)- a wheel coming off and poking You in the eye, or something)...
I was worried if there was some first lap pile-up (de Portago's over-enthusiastic passing attempt on Castelotti, both of them being chased by Moss and Tintignant), involving some spectator injuries (including You ;)- a wheel coming off and poking You in the eye, or something)...
#19
Roger Clark
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Posted 25 February 2002 - 23:38
Originally posted by Barry Boor
1. Castellotti - Lancia D50 - 2h 19m 04.72 secs
Castellotti posted the fastest lap in 1m 19.544.
Fix!!
How many of your 60s races has Dan Gurney won?
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#20
Barry Boor
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Posted 26 February 2002 - 16:01
Roger, if I didn't know you, I think I might be quite insulted by that last comment! 
Here is a paragraph from my Slot-race website:
"I have heard of people who re-run races and obtain the same result as the real Grand Prix. This is NOT what I do. Every race stands as a separate event, and before the first practice lap, I have absolutely no idea what the outcome may be. I have often been told that I must 'cheat' in favour of one driver or another, but, hand-on-heart, I can say that I have never knowingly biased a race in order to produce any particular result. What would be the point? It would take all the excitement out of the racing."
As to the question regarding Gurney - the answer is ONE, a non-championship bunfight at Mar del Plata prior to the Argentine Grand Prix.
But he did win my World Championship in 1967!
Here is a paragraph from my Slot-race website:
"I have heard of people who re-run races and obtain the same result as the real Grand Prix. This is NOT what I do. Every race stands as a separate event, and before the first practice lap, I have absolutely no idea what the outcome may be. I have often been told that I must 'cheat' in favour of one driver or another, but, hand-on-heart, I can say that I have never knowingly biased a race in order to produce any particular result. What would be the point? It would take all the excitement out of the racing."
As to the question regarding Gurney - the answer is ONE, a non-championship bunfight at Mar del Plata prior to the Argentine Grand Prix.
But he did win my World Championship in 1967!
