91 replies to this topic

[BigWig]

Are you AtlasF1'ers going to sit around and let a fatass-50-year-old-oval-guy come close to Schumacher? Come on, I'm not even a fan of Schumacher but he has CLEARLY shown that he is the best driver in the year 2000. PUT YOUR VOTE WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!!! GO TO ESPN, auto racing, and VOTE!!!!!!


[This message has been edited by BigWig (edited 04-13-2000).]

[vroom-vroom]

Who in the world are Danny Lasosky and Jerry Tolivier?????????????????

[This message has been edited by vroom-vroom (edited 04-13-2000).]

[404KF2]

Don't bother voting @ ESPN.

Let 'em think that the oval good ole boys are tops.

The voting pattern for their poll just is an indication of the type of person who frequents that site.

Leave Bubba Bo-Dean alone in his fantasy world...

[awill4x4]

Hi Vroom Vroom, I don't know who Jerry Tolivier is but Danny Lasoski drives a "World of Outlaws" sprintcar.
If you don't know sprintcars, then they are 780hp monsters that run on dirt track ovals usually between 1/4 and 1/2 mile in length.
Recently Lasoski ran here in Australia for a few races in local cars. He was beaten on one night by an American driver "Chad Kemenah" who was driving one of our chassis.
Lasoski then proceeded to beat our chassis the next night when running for bigger money.
regards awill.

[Grano]

I think it says something about ESPN that I have only heard about three of those drivers!

[Alfisti]

Considering I spend 8 to 10 hours a day designing and implimenting surveys/polling... I can tell you to ignore any internet poll. All the ESPN survey shows is that it was answered by Americans.

[BRG]

Are you sure that this is done by votes? It looks more like it is some sort of statistical exercise. Surely 2.4% of Americans or whoever wouldn't vote for Max Papis ahead of any other CART driver? But he won the first CART round, and Michael has won a couple of races lately, so I am told, so it may be based on results?

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BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Telemetry Man]

I'm actually surprised 1887.6 Americans even know who MS is !

[Bitten_&_Hisses]

Weren't all those other guys in the dukes of hazard at some stage

[Sudsbouy]

Clearly, ESPN's provincial north american driver poll doesn't belong on this board. Everyone knows that the overwhelming number of car racing fans in the USA do not appreciate road racing events.

Perhaps more interesting is that a recent article in ONTrack magazine (the best north american racing periodical) spent two pages on how boring NASCAR has gotten. This is wonderful news, and the other series must take advantage of this weakness to get more exposure for their products.

Thank you.

[Schumi Fan]

He he he, here are some selected quotes from the geniuses who posted there:

"Put the best drivers in the world in identically prepared cars and let them go. The person who is going to win the majority of those races is Dale Earnhardt. There is no question in my mind."

"Dale Earnhardt and Dale Earnhardt Jr., get my vote. Junior because of his win at one of the hardest superspeedways, and his dad because he's always a threat, whether people like it or not. The rest of the list, let people with no brains pick those."

"What could be more wrong with your rankings? Not having Dale Jarrett at No. 1.The man is a race car driver above all the rest."

[John]

Ignore ESPN
Ignore American jingoism
Ignore anything that goes around in circles (ovals) 300 times or more
Ignore narrow-mindedness
Ignore ignorance
Ignore this thread (no offence, BigWig)
Ignore this post
;)

[magnum]

I've asked once and I'll ask again - who is Jerry Toliver - someone on this board nominate his uncle?

[Joe Fan]

Yes, it is ridiculous. Mark Martin should be leading. He is the best driver in the world in the pinnacle driver series in the world--NASCAR Winston Cup. Why is NASCAR Winston Cup the pinnacle driver series in the world? No driver aids, no on board telemetry, no huge wings that create tremendous downforce that theoretically would allow a car to drive upside down-just a six inch spoiler mounted on your rear. And yes no 107% rule in NASCAR Winston Cup because you actually have continous close competition. F1's 107% rule is bogus anyway, find an excuse why you didn't qualify with 107% of the pole and your in. Everybody makes the field in F1 and CART. How many times has former CART drivers Scott Pruett and Robby Gordon not qualified for Winston Cup races or had to resort to provisionals this season? Too many.

As I said on another thread, if F1 was that difficult how could a driver like Jenson Button not embarrass himself when he hadn't even sat in an actual race car two years ago?

F1 is the pinnacle Constructors and pinnacle open wheel series in the world. Take away the training wings and driver aids and F1 drivers would gain more respect in these polls.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 04-13-2000).]

[whit]

INCOMING!!!!!
Watch out JoeFan. You just made a BIG mistake.

[magnum]

JoeFAn u are correct - the pinnacle is Nascar - now if only they'd steer right ...

[Todd]

Joe,

How did you come up with Mark Martin? Dale pretty much destroyed his one claim to fame by dominating IROC last year and Mark can't seem to mount a serious title shot. BTW, using 100.1% of a wing cars performance takes every bit of talent that using 100.1% of a car that has no down force at all. The limits are just that much higher and require that much more commitment from the driver.

------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[Joe Fan]

Magnum, they steer right twice a year at Sears Point and Watkins Glen.

Todd, who is more likely to press the envelope and make a mistake, a driver who is constantly getting hounded for position or a someone who has a 25 second lead? Last weeks F1 race was one of the few that was close up front.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 04-13-2000).]

[GasPeddler]

Joe Fan, your position is interesting but IMHO your logic is flawed. How can you claim that because a series has no driver aids, aerodynamics or a 107% rule, it must be the pinnacle drivers series in the world? According to your criteria, the American Lawn Mower Racing series is actually the pinnacle, since they don't even have the 6 inch spoiler NASCAR does.

In my books, the pinnacle racing series in terms of driver skill is the one which requires the "most" from its drivers - both in terms of physical strength, inputs and technique/skill, as well as mental capacity. And in my mind, F1 wins this contest over NASCAR Winston Cup hands-down.

[GasPeddler]

And yes, I agree that degree of competition certainly places some physical and mental demands on the driver - however, it in itself can't be the primary criterion - otherwise a Formula Civic competition (i.e. over 100 identically prepped Civics on a road course) would be the pinnacle racing series!

[stoopid]

i totally agree joe. the number 107 is totally evil, and thus f1 is evil. when multiplied by 6.2243, 107 is about 666! F1 is autoracing for satanists!

[Megatron]

I certainly don't want to be mean to Joe Fan, but he has always came across to me on several boards as a person who knew NASCAR very well but had no real perception of F1. (And I stress "real".


"Mark Martin should be leading. He is the best driver in the world in the pinnacle driver series in the world--NASCAR Winston Cup."

NASCAR is very popular in the US and has a mild following in Canada. F1 is great in Canada, Europe, Asia, Brazil, etc. Yes indeed, those people in the Finnish rallys are inspired by the NASCAR stockers.

"No driver aids, no on board telemetry, no huge wings that create tremendous downforce that theoretically would allow a car to drive upside down-just a six inch spoiler mounted on your rear."

Joe Fan, I am suprised that you say no "on board telemetry". True, nothing can be used during the races, but I saw where Roush had on board telemetry on all his cars during testing, and of course, data that was sent back to the pits. Maybe not F1, but hey, they are catching up with the IRL. The stock cars might be very difficult to drive on a roadcourse, but hey, they run a might two of those a year. The other 30- some times they are turning left only. Also, the fact that an F1 car demands more canstant reflexes and observation because of the shere performance of the cars.

". And yes no 107% rule in NASCAR Winston Cup because you actually have continous close competition."

When was the last time that a 107 rule came into play in actual conditions? Melbourne 99 with a rookie in the Minardi? The 107 rule was not because F1 wasn't that "close", it was done because people who were going in way over thier heads like Forti and Pacific were posting stupid times that were way off the pace. F1 is very close. NASCAR has enjoyed decent competition this year, but NASCAR usually becomes dominated by one or two teams about half way through the season onward. Gordon crushed everyone in 1998. Jarret won the title by how many points last year?

"Everybody makes the field in F1 and CART. How many times has former CART drivers Scott Pruett and Robby Gordon not qualified for Winston Cup races or had to resort to provisionals this season? Too many."

Gee, it couldn't hurt the F1 and CART fields are not FULL! F1 allows 24, CART allows 28 (I think). With Winston Cup you have about 46 cars show up every week. Someone has to go home. It is the law of physics.

Could it be that both guys steped into new teams and go to a completely different formula? Nah, they are just not tough enough, right?

"As I said on another thread, if F1 was that difficult how could a driver like Jenson Button not embarrass himself when he hadn't even sat in an actual race car two years ago?"

Yea, kind of like how Tony Stewart spends his entire life in open wheelers, has a season and change in the BGN seris, and comes in and finishes FOURTH in the drivers championship. Button raced karts before he went to the Formula ranks. I guess Tony found NASCAR so easy to learn after racing in "easy" cars like Indy cars.

"F1 is the pinnacle Constructors and pinnacle open wheel series in the world. Take away the training wings and driver aids and F1 drivers would gain more respect in these polls."

The reason that F1 does not get a lot of respect in these "polls" is because most Americans think Formula One is a new type of motor oil. That would be like going to Britian and asking them for the best driver, giving them a list of people from BTCC, F1, Rally, and then Dale Jarret. Who are they going to pick?

"Todd, who is more likely to press the envelope and make a mistake, a driver who is constantly getting hounded for position or a someone who has a 25 second lead? Last weeks F1 race was one of the few that was close up front."

Yea, all those NASCAR races are close. Every race, the drivers all over each other for the lead. Get with it Joe Fan, there are not any real exciting finishes in NASCAR except for the occasional race (ie, Bristol 99, Atlanta 2000), or a restrictor plate track where it is given law you have to run close.

Seriously Joe Fan, I am really not trying to be mean because I always assumed you were a decent poster, but many recent posts are nothing but crap (not only on Atlas, but a few others). Think about things before you type them, man! I could not believe some of your posts on Speednet about Scott Pruett. If I did not know you before, I would really think you were a troll. You think up all these things about NASCAR looking good, then type them out before you think cleary about its F1 relationship. My advice would be to learn more about F1 or quite making these crazy posts.

As for ESPN, they are pathectic. They have basically no F1 coverage, and what they do usually get is way off the wall. If MS had not had 3 victories to start the year, I would say that no F1 driver would be listed at all.

[Statesidefan]

Joe,

I used to think you were an intellegent, but misguided soul... now I wonder. Again using your criteria then the Aussie V-8 Supercars would be the pinnacle series or Formula Fords or GT-3.

A series that runs 98% of it events on ovals and include only those from North America cannot be the pinnacle drivers series. You have obviously been hypnotized by the hype and greed that is NASCAR.

It is gratifying to see the media turn on them since the credential flap. If you read Ben Blake or Brock Yates on Speedvision. com or Robin Miller or Jonathan Ingram then you see the honeymoon might be over. Nothing can live up the hype and excess that has been generated since the 50th anniversary and the American public is realizing this.

Brian France and Leasa France Kennedy have run around drunk on exposure and dollar signs in their eyes for several years now and it will come back to give then a very bad hangover. I suspect there are some very sober discussions about TV ratings going on now.

Basically NASCAR has bastardized, cheapened, and desecrated everything that real auto racing is about. While F-1 is a shadow of its former glory......well it is still F-1. Bob Varsha said it best: (paraphrase) You can watch something of real significance as opposed to something with momentary passing excitement.


BTW. Hail NASCAR!!

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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976


[This message has been edited by Statesidefan (edited 04-13-2000).]

[P1 Senna]

Jerry Toliver is a NHRA Funny Car pilot.

What a pathetic list of nominees. But what do you expect of a group that awards an ESPY to Dale Jarrett?

Me vote? No
Me care? No

[Pacific]

Actually, NASCAR does not allow telemetry during a race weekend. PPI used to some telemetry in testing this year and of course Jeff Burton was interviewed about how Roush did a little with it for a while but how it didn't give them a major advantage and since they couldn't use it in a race they didn't want to rely on it.
N
ASCAR with telemetry like F1 would rock. Like the tire sensors for instance. When I race simulators, I pretty much use the tire temperatures alone to get my set-up right and lord knows you can't get as accurate of a reading without telemetry like you have in F1 and CART. But, NASCAR does it because the difference in budgets between say Hendrick or Roush Racing and say LJ Racing is quite big, and they want to keep it real competitive. They don't want a second seperating the field at Bristol like back in the old days.

[RiverRunner]

This REALLY cracks me up.Seeing Jerry Tollivers name anywhere near Schumachers I nearly busted a gut.I was lucky (?) enough to see this maroon in his first race,which oddly enough was in a drag boat.At the end of his run he promptly drove the boat right onto the beach,duh,he couldn't even get it to the outramp without crashing into an island.He runs a hazardous disposal outfit in LA and on the side sells Freon at outrageous prices.Naturally his sponsor is none other than the World Wrestling Federation and his car is festooned with the latest steroid stuffed clown that is the fave of the day.
Bwahahahahahaha!!!!!

[Pascal]

Joe, would this kind of racing qualify as the pinnacle of racing series according to your logic?



For more info, check out www.letsmow.com and enjoy!

[Hoffy]

A NHRA funny car driver on the list? come on give me a break. Some one who doesn't drive his car for longer then 6 secs at a time shoudn't even be called a race car driver!!!!!

[Joe Fan]

To put a Formula One driver number one in a driver poll who has never raced on a high bank oval track in a limited downforce 750+hp car at 200mph is laughable. At least NASCAR drivers race twice a year on road circuits. What's next, John Force will be number one?



[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 04-13-2000).]

[Hoffy]

O.K. Joe, lets put a NASCAR driver in a COMPETITIVE F1 car and lets see how he goes.

[Joe Fan]

F1 and CART, just steer with little fear of losing your rear. Why? All the weight is in the rear of these cars due to engine placement. This coupled with a lower center of gravity than a stockcar has and a huge wing in the rear end plants and sucks the arse end of the cars to the ground. Just steer and click the buttons baby! Point and click technology.

Hoffy, why would a Winston Cup driver lower himself to driving computers on wheels unless he gets a top ride in the series? No Winston Cup driver will ever get offered a top F1 ride just as no F1 driver would ever get offered a top Winston Cup ride. The series are completely different, one is all road courses while the other is primarily ovals.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 04-13-2000).]

[Hoffy]

I still reckon any NASCAR driver would have his arse kicked from here back to the good ol' USof A if he attempted F1.

Oh by the way, can you remember back to the '90 Nascar season. Australian V8 Supercar racer Dick Johnson did a few races in the Winston Cup. At his first race at Sears Piont he Qualified 10th and ran as high as 6th before being punted off by Richard Petty, and cutting a tyre which ensured a sizable crash. Not bad considering he had never seen the car or the track. So much for your elite class.

[F1DADDY]

NASCAR is a sad redneck, whitetrash "auto"sport which could never become popular outside of The US because Its like watching paint dry. Whats so exiting about watching Jaques throw himself into Eau Rouge without lifting is the almost mathmatical precition needed to achieve it and the balls to pull it off. Nascar drivers may have the Balls but without cornering, they'll never have the razor sharp acuracy needed to negotiate corners. In F1 we constantly see Hakkinen shaving tenths off by tightening his entrance and exit to a corner and carying tiny amounts of extra speed with him.

NASCAR is about keeping the pedal down and trying to pass everyone else on a circut thats banked so you cant fall off it without help.

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F1DADDY, Who's ya Daddy

[This message has been edited by Pascal (edited 04-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by F1DADDY (edited 04-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Pascal (edited 04-14-2000).]

[F1DADDY]

Shumacher makes £30 million a year which is more than NASCAR is worth. And you say that NASCAR drivers won't bother with F1. No my friend NASCAR is a Bitch sport that even Old men well past their prime can succede in. Its like the Senior PGA tour, only not as much fun to watch

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F1DADDY, Who's ya Daddy

[This message has been edited by F1DADDY (edited 04-14-2000).]

[The Swerve]

Joefan, how many times do we have to go over this? This is an F1 BB and you will NOT convert anyone to your crazy NASCAR nonsense. If you like NASCAR so much why don't you post on a NASCAR BB?

It is a simple as that. I think you post this sort of thing just to flame bait....and we fall for it everytime, people.

[magnum]

Son of a ... so THAT'S where ma tractor went!

[Megatron]

Some more.......

"Joefan, how many times do we have to go over this? This is an F1 BB and you will NOT convert anyone to your crazy NASCAR nonsense. If you like NASCAR so much why don't you post on a NASCAR BB?"

Yea, old Joe Fan thinks he can convert people to actaully believe that NASCAR is bigger than F1 if he talks about it enough on this BB. It is one thing to defend what you are talking about, it is another to post absolute nonsense.

"Hoffy, why would a Winston Cup driver lower himself to driving computers on wheels unless he gets a top ride in the series? No Winston Cup driver will ever get offered a top F1 ride just as no F1 driver would ever get offered a top Winston Cup ride. The series are completely different, one is all road courses while the other is primarily ovals."

I guess NASCAR drivers are afraid of technology, eh Joe Fan? All those buttons on the wheel might get confusing. Better to have the NASCAR wheel, a might one button to talk to the pits. I think you assume that just because something is high tech, it is eaiser. F1 is constantley changing, basically, areo aside, NASCAR does not.

"To put a Formula One driver number one in a driver poll who has never raced on a high bank oval track in a limited downforce 750+hp car at 200mph is laughable. At least NASCAR drivers race twice a year on road circuits. What's next, John Force will be number one?"

Yea, I guess Micheals no match for people who run around in circles all the time. Why don't you put Dale Jarret in a Ferrari at Monza with 830 HP with those little rear wings, those groove tires, and the narrow cars. I don't think DJ could do a lap out of the pits. Can you say 220 on the straight all the way down to 60 and back? Does NASCAR face anything like that? The Glen?

"F1 and CART, just steer with little fear of losing your rear. Why? All the weight is in the rear of these cars due to engine placement. This coupled with a lower center of gravity than a stockcar has and a huge wing in the rear end plants and sucks the arse end of the cars to the ground. Just steer and click the buttons baby! Point and click technology."

Yea, I guess thats why all the drivers look like they are about to spin out when they came out of the turns at Imola. I guess thats why those cars have that nasty wiggles in them. All that blasted downforce.

SERIOUSLY JOE FAN, think just a little bit. You have always been pro NASCAR, but this is getting just a bit ridulous. Remember my opening post on "Thats racing" BB? I do the usual introduction thread and I happen to mention I like F1, and you come out of nowhere and shoot a flame out at F1 because of the "lack of passing". About the time of the sleeper first couple of NASCAR races during the season? That was really low. I mean that came out of nowhere.

Then there was the one about how Scott Pruett was crashing in NASCAR because he was used to crusing around with those big rear wings. Then there was the one about how you thought that Scott Pruett couldn't "save a stock car", because he didn't have the "talent", like Dick Trickle.

Seriously, I used to think that you were just an opionated NASCAR fan that had some knowledge of the sport. I am trying not to sound mean (I am trying to be "hintful")but anymore you just blurt out whatever sounds right to you without really thinking it through. Just think about it, man!

[404KF2]

Joe Fan,

Does your Charger have a Confederate (racist) flag on the roof? NASCAR - the favourite sport of the KKK ;)

[Todd]

404,

Your statement displays greater ignorance than anything Joe ever championed.

------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[Megatron]

I have to admit that ones over the line. Contrary to popular belief, there are some very nice, knowledgeable NASCAR fans. They are just overshaowed by the human ****/bad class of persons (not you Joe Fan) that like to give the sport a bad name.

I call it as I see it, and I don't hardly think NASCAR deserved that one.

[404KF2]

Todd,

Maybe you haven't watched the clips on Speedvision of Nascar in the 1960s and 1970s. If you had, you'd realise that the confederate flag was front and centre in the winners circle, and all around the track.

What does that say to you? That flag stands for more than just "southern pride".

Ask an African-American about that, my friend...

[BigWig]

Sometimes stereotypes hold true. Most NASCAR BB's are filled with racists who use words such as "jap" and "kraut" and the N-word regularly when dealing with the issue of "foreign" manufacturers and minority drivers. I've seen it time and time again.

------------------
Bigwig, you know, from Watership Down.

[JL Wade]

Hey...driving an F1 car takes a lot more skill than driving NASCAR but I can't believe some of you guys are so hard on NASCAR, especially considering the fact that NASCAR's Mark Martin is a big fan of F1 and really loves the series. But, it's not surprising he loves F1 considering the fact that he used to be a test driver for Ferrari before beginning his NASCAR career. In fact, at one time he was even offered a seat on the Ferrari team but declined due to the fact that his NASCAR career was rising so fast.

Martin’s short-lived association with Ferrari where he tested protype versions of the Ferrari 126 C4 Turbo 1496cc 700+ horsepower is well documented in the book, entitled "Ruota in Pista" by Gianni Scagliere, Arti Grafiche Ruffinello, Firenze, 1987. The book was also released in English as "Wheels on the Track" by Gianni Scagliere, 1988, the publisher was Lattimer, New York [ ISBN for "Wheels on the Track": 0801962905]. A couple of paragraphs in the book written in Italian details his period with Ferrari and Enzo's fascination with the American's natural ability. According to Scagliere's book, Martin had a calming effect on the entire Ferrari team. Whenever there was any type of turmoil within the ranks, Martin was often called in to help bring some calm to the environment. Scagliere quotes Enzo as once saying "...Martin has a calmness in his actions and demeanor which radiate reason and unity..." p197, "Wheel On the Track," Gianni Scagliere, Lattimer (English Translation Publisher), New York, 1988 However, because of Ferrari's contractual agreement with Michele Alboreto and ??? (sorry can't remember the name), Martin would have to wait two seasons before he could take a seat on the F1 team. In any event his Nascar career started accelerating and he became a significant footnote in Ferrari's history.

Apparently footage of two of his best test drives (one at Fiorano and one at the eight mile (that's right "8") oval at Volpenato are required viewing by all potential Ferrari drivers. Even Michael Schumacher after reviewing hours of Martin film footage said of him, "...he’s perhaps one of the greatest natural talents that ever drove for Ferrari".

[Todd]

404,

Whatever PC culture tells you it stands for today, pre-'90s flakery, the confederate flag stood for southern pride. The Civil War was no more about slavery then the Persian Gulf War was about giving a crap about Kuwaitis right to be ruled by their own royalty. As I already said, you're statement was one of ignorance.

[RiverRunner]

As an attendee of many of the NASCAR races in the early years at Riverside raceway(a roadcourse),the confederate flags far outnumbered the American ones,even in California.
Actually in those days the NASCAR was more like a trans am car on steroids and the tricky T6 at Riverside,an off camber right turn was always hilarious to sit at,the good 'ol boys had fits with that corner and it wasn't an oddity to see the Gurney's Parnellis and Andrettis and other top flight roadracers of the day come in for a one off.One of the best drivers I ever saw was in a NASCAR there,Tim Richmond,unfortunately he was an early victim of AIDS.Great track,now a shopping mall.
Nowadays whenever I'm ready for a (or need a) Sunday afternoon nap,I can depend on NASCAR to lull me to lights out.

[404KF2]

Quote:

"...you're (sic) statement was one of ignorance."

Well, your statement was one of illiteracy.

Todd, wake up! Ask some of your African-American friends about the confederate flag. Also, as Bigwig says, drop into some Nascar sites to witness the level of discourse. I stand behind my statement.

[404KF2]

Joe Fan,

In case you took offense to my first post in this thread, I am sorry. I didn't really mean to imply that you are a racist (hence the "winking face") - I know you were talking about the technical merits of Nascar.

[Todd]

404KF2,

It was a matter of a half-assed editing job. The last sentence origionally described you instead of your statement. Being bigoted against members of a region or fans of a sport is no less the act of a troglodyte than hating people for their skin color or national origin, although I'm certain you're guilty of those things too.

------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[Yelnats]

As I have said before, Joe Fan gets tired of the grunts and farts over at the NASCAR boards and comes here to get some intelligible responses. Don't disappoint him guys, he must be one lonely dude! {;->

[404KF2]

Well, well, well, who's a little PC now, Todd?

Your argument is both vacuous and breathtakingly inconsistent. And you spelled "originally" wrong...

What you describe as "bigotry against a region or sport" indicates that you don't know what bigotry is. Get a dictionary.

After my initial post, intended to be humourous (and a bit edgy), I have been writing about the meaning of the confederate flag to African Americans and the fact that Nascar has used this flag extensively for decades. I have also been pointing out that there appears to be a distinct redneck-racist element among SOME Nascar fans, certainly moreso than many other motorsports. Check the Nascar BBs if you don't believe me.

For you to deny that the confederate flag has any meaning (to anybody) other than "southern pride" is just plain ignorant.

And really, you allege that I am a xenophobe and racist! You really don't know me, Todd (for which I am very grateful).

I have been called worse things than a "troglodyte" by better people than you! Personalizing your argument just proves how shallow it is.

Do yourself a favour - cut your losses and shut up.

Ha Ha Ha!!