The news that Ferrari will use their F2001s at Melbourne set me thinking. What is the longest a single car has competed for: ie how many seasons or races has a single model competed in? Inevitably there will have been some long-lived ERAs which are still in competition, but I'm thinking of cars racing in the series for which they were designed, such as the Lotus 72 or 102.
Longest-used racing cars
Started by
Speed Demon
, Feb 18 2002 21:13
68 replies to this topic
#3
Speed Demon
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Posted 18 February 2002 - 21:27
Although I quoted some F1 examples. I was hoping to expand the topic to other series, and not just confine it to single seaters. Sportscars and tin tops are definitely included!
#4
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 18 February 2002 - 21:56
The Ferrari 333sp raced for the first time in 1995 and is still racing this year, though we will 99% not see one beyond this season. Same with Riley & Scott, but there's been a new version now. Some people are still racing the old one, but the Ferrari has been unchanged since the first roll out, there has not been a Mark 2 version. Any and all modifications were done by people other than the original designer/creater
In 1994 a Vector Formula Ford was designed and due to budget constraints of the factory even up until the 2002 models its the same car, albeit modified over the years. So they improve the suspension then redo the bodywork to fit the new pickup points. Still the same underlying design though.
And these are cases of cars where there is competing mfgs.
In 1994 a Vector Formula Ford was designed and due to budget constraints of the factory even up until the 2002 models its the same car, albeit modified over the years. So they improve the suspension then redo the bodywork to fit the new pickup points. Still the same underlying design though.
And these are cases of cars where there is competing mfgs.
#5
Ray Bell
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Posted 18 February 2002 - 22:53
The 1922 Targa Florio Ballot that the Coopers brought to Australia to race at Maroubra in the late twenties had a long life...
It ran in the Australian GP for a few years in the Phillip Island days before being crashed by Les Cramp. Cramp, an ex-racing motorcyclist, lost his way down a straight and crashed, rolling after running up an embankment and overturning. He was killed.
Present at the race was Jack Nelson, who bought most of the wreck (the fuel tank was stuck into Jim Gullan's Wolseley for the very long 1936 South Australian Centenary Grand Prix, caused his demise by having so much surge that he lost control and hit a post...) and rebuilt it with a Chev 4 chassis and .... after blowing up the 2-litre engine .... Ford V8 engine.
It raced on in the hands of Jack and a few others, getting other engines as time passed by, including a Chrysler 6 and a GMC 6 (which was in it when he ran in the 1957 AGP, I think) before a Corvette engine was fitted.
At this time, with really ugly bodywork fitted, it was owned by Mick Geneve, an ex-racing motorcyclist. In a support race for the 1958 Caversham 6-hour race the car developed some kind of whip in the chassis down the long straight (an airstrip), got out of control and rolled. Geneve was killed.
Maybe not what you're looking for, but a long-lived racing car nonetheless.
It ran in the Australian GP for a few years in the Phillip Island days before being crashed by Les Cramp. Cramp, an ex-racing motorcyclist, lost his way down a straight and crashed, rolling after running up an embankment and overturning. He was killed.
Present at the race was Jack Nelson, who bought most of the wreck (the fuel tank was stuck into Jim Gullan's Wolseley for the very long 1936 South Australian Centenary Grand Prix, caused his demise by having so much surge that he lost control and hit a post...) and rebuilt it with a Chev 4 chassis and .... after blowing up the 2-litre engine .... Ford V8 engine.
It raced on in the hands of Jack and a few others, getting other engines as time passed by, including a Chrysler 6 and a GMC 6 (which was in it when he ran in the 1957 AGP, I think) before a Corvette engine was fitted.
At this time, with really ugly bodywork fitted, it was owned by Mick Geneve, an ex-racing motorcyclist. In a support race for the 1958 Caversham 6-hour race the car developed some kind of whip in the chassis down the long straight (an airstrip), got out of control and rolled. Geneve was killed.
Maybe not what you're looking for, but a long-lived racing car nonetheless.
#6
Speed Demon
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Posted 18 February 2002 - 23:05
No, that's just the sort of thing I was after.
IIRC the Ferrari 333SP debuted in 1994. Similarly long-live sports prototypes include the Porsche WSC, which was based on the last Jaguar design, which in turn became a Mazda before Porsche converted it (TWR being the connection here) to race in the Daytona 24 hours in 1995 (?). However they pulled out because of air restricter rules and the car was mothballed for a year before competing and winning at Le Mans two years running for the Joest team. It was revised for 1999 before finally retiring. Of course, it could still make another reappearance...
IIRC the Ferrari 333SP debuted in 1994. Similarly long-live sports prototypes include the Porsche WSC, which was based on the last Jaguar design, which in turn became a Mazda before Porsche converted it (TWR being the connection here) to race in the Daytona 24 hours in 1995 (?). However they pulled out because of air restricter rules and the car was mothballed for a year before competing and winning at Le Mans two years running for the Joest team. It was revised for 1999 before finally retiring. Of course, it could still make another reappearance...
#7
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 00:57
Considering the technology and money of modern racing, the Ferrari is beyond beleif. I dont think if it was another marque people would bother to stretch it so far. They'd just go get the latest greatest thing. But its the mystique of the brand that people keep trying to improve the wheel; slapping on diffusers, redoing the sidepods, trying different engines and gearboxes etc. Though one sportscar scribe, upon looking at the 2002 Daytona 24 starting grid remarked (paraphrased) "that car should not be competitive"
#8
troyf1
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 00:59
Would the Porsche 956/962 fit in that category?? If so that model was used for YEARS in WSC.
#9
Ray Bell
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 02:27
Originally posted by troyf1
Would the Porsche 956/962 fit in that category?? If so that model was used for YEARS in WSC.
How long did D-Type Jags run at Le Mans?
I know of one car that held an outright circuit record when its chassis was forty years old...
#10
Gary Davies
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 03:39
David Piper's 250LM ran a few years, didn't it.
And of course there's Pete Lovely's two owner Lotus 49 R2, er, R5, er, R11!
Vanwall.
And of course there's Pete Lovely's two owner Lotus 49 R2, er, R5, er, R11!
Vanwall.
#12
Gary Davies
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 04:26
Originally posted by da Silva
Couldn't agree more!
#13
rdrcr
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 04:45
Off hand I'd say the Porsche 911. In one iteration or another, it's run with the rear engine design for 30 years right?
As far as a purpose built racing car, surely the Indy cars (roadsters) ran from the big oval to the dirt tracks for 20+ years... or did they just look like them?
As far as a purpose built racing car, surely the Indy cars (roadsters) ran from the big oval to the dirt tracks for 20+ years... or did they just look like them?
#14
cabianca
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 05:27
The Indy roadsters era ended when Jim Clark won the 500 in 1965, although the Lotus-Fords had beaten them as early as 18 August 1963, when Clark won the Milwaukee Mile. It began in 1952 with the Cummings Diesel and Howard Keck's 500 entry for Bill Vukovich, both designed by Frank Kurtis. I make that 13 years. Obviously, there were improvements along the way. One could view this as evidence of the stagnation of Indy car design standards. On the other hand, several opposing designs, including Ferrari in 1952, could do nothing against the "roadsters". It was a long, if intellectually unchallenged run. It can be argued that the next fifteen years, after the Lotus win were the most exciting in Indy history because "everyone who was someone" in racing came to the big bowl to see what they could do. Hopefully, 2002 will see the beginning of a return to that competitiveness. Tyce Carlson, the dentist Miller et al, stay home. Return the race to real racers with big cajones.
#15
rdrcr
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 06:38
cabianca,
Forgive me here, but even though the "roadsters" reign ended in 63 or 65 didn't the cars still see active duty on other tracks? The mile dirt ovals, the short track circuits and the like. If this were true, wouldn't this extend the life or the usefulness of those cars by some years?
Or, did they just park them and build specific cars for that purpose?
Forgive me here, but even though the "roadsters" reign ended in 63 or 65 didn't the cars still see active duty on other tracks? The mile dirt ovals, the short track circuits and the like. If this were true, wouldn't this extend the life or the usefulness of those cars by some years?
Or, did they just park them and build specific cars for that purpose?
#16
ensign14
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 08:33
Peugeot GP/Indy 1914. Lindley Bothwell entered one in the 1949 Indy 500 (I think in order to break an old record, and there was no historic scene in which to enter it).
This must be the only example of a pre-World War 1 car entering a contemporary event post-World War 2. (There were drivers who entered events pre-WW1 and post-WW2...I can think of the Hon Francis Samuelson...)
More seriously, the GP Delage from the mid-1920s was entered in top line Voiturette racing in the 30s and usde by Tony Rolt with an ERA engine and some success in the early 1950s
This must be the only example of a pre-World War 1 car entering a contemporary event post-World War 2. (There were drivers who entered events pre-WW1 and post-WW2...I can think of the Hon Francis Samuelson...)
More seriously, the GP Delage from the mid-1920s was entered in top line Voiturette racing in the 30s and usde by Tony Rolt with an ERA engine and some success in the early 1950s
#17
Martin Krejci
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 08:49
One of the most long lived car that appeared in the same category would be Peter Hoffmann's McLaren M8F (M8F-72-02). It started life as Felder Racing Team car in Interserie drive by Helmut Kelleners. Since 1975 it was raced by Hoffmann again in Interserie. At that time it was one of quickest car of the series but never won overall. In 1982 at the beginning of group C days Hoffmann fitted the car with Lotec bodywork and tried also Deutch Rennsports Meistershaft and alter Supercup. After 1986 the car disappeared for some time as Hoffmann has bought one of the prettiest Can-Am cars ever (Holbert CAC-2 Chevy), that was in his black Manhattan color really very impresive to watch. During middle of the 1990s Hoffmann appeared with his old McLaren in historics Supersport Cup, now again in its original Can-Am trim. And 9/10/1999 he also made a single appearence in Interserie race after long 13 years off.
That mean that this particular car raced in the same series in range of 28 years! I don't know about any similar example.
As for most used chassis in sportscar racing I may write here a top part of my statistics. Far most used car was Joest's Porsche 908/03-008, the car that is shown in the "Joest or Jost" thread.
1. Porsche 908/3-008 - 115 starts
2. Porsche 935 #930 890 0014 - 79 starts
3. Porsche 935 #009 00030 - 73 starts
4. McLaren M8F-72-02 (Hoffmann) - 69 starts (Interserie 2-heat races counted as one start and vintage races not included)
5. these are most active cars still seen on the tracks in 2001 (both 67 starts)
Porsche 911 GT2 #WPOZZZZ99ZTS394065 (Konrad's, later Proton Competition car)
Ferrari 333SP-003 (currently raced by Lavaggi with Judd engine, I would wish it still continue racing)
7. Follows 'best' of Porsche 956/962 clone cars:
Porsche 956-104 - 64 starts
etc.
There is of course many unidentified cars, especially some GTs and tubeframed cars that could have more starts but is there anybody on earth who would know it?
Example of best tubeframed car is
8. Porsche RSR #JLE 001 (counted IMSA/ALMS type races, could have been used much more in club racing, I don't know) - 63 starts
and best of Riley & Scotts Mk III (chassis 002 Dyson) - 63 starts
That mean that this particular car raced in the same series in range of 28 years! I don't know about any similar example.
As for most used chassis in sportscar racing I may write here a top part of my statistics. Far most used car was Joest's Porsche 908/03-008, the car that is shown in the "Joest or Jost" thread.
1. Porsche 908/3-008 - 115 starts
2. Porsche 935 #930 890 0014 - 79 starts
3. Porsche 935 #009 00030 - 73 starts
4. McLaren M8F-72-02 (Hoffmann) - 69 starts (Interserie 2-heat races counted as one start and vintage races not included)
5. these are most active cars still seen on the tracks in 2001 (both 67 starts)
Porsche 911 GT2 #WPOZZZZ99ZTS394065 (Konrad's, later Proton Competition car)
Ferrari 333SP-003 (currently raced by Lavaggi with Judd engine, I would wish it still continue racing)
7. Follows 'best' of Porsche 956/962 clone cars:
Porsche 956-104 - 64 starts
etc.
There is of course many unidentified cars, especially some GTs and tubeframed cars that could have more starts but is there anybody on earth who would know it?
Example of best tubeframed car is
8. Porsche RSR #JLE 001 (counted IMSA/ALMS type races, could have been used much more in club racing, I don't know) - 63 starts
and best of Riley & Scotts Mk III (chassis 002 Dyson) - 63 starts
#18
AS110
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 09:27
I'm off on a motorcycle tangent again,but didn't Slippery Sam set an unbeatable record until forced into retirment? They set an age limit that he had already passed?
#19
Megatron
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 12:34
The Dallara/Ferrari 333SP has been improved upon through the years but it is still remarkable that the car is as competitive as it is. Sadly, it looks as though the "Fudd" will be the only 333SP out there, as the V12 has aged poorly in comparision with the chassis.
The Porsche 956/962/Dauer 962 LM certainly must be high on the list. The 956 and 962 raced from 1982 to 1993 at Le Mans, even after the factory gave it up in 1988 (though the 89 Joest effort was certainly an unoffical effort). Granted, the car was revised quite a bit from different people, like the carbon fiber, closed wheel, Richard Loyd 962 or the incredible Dyson 962 a few years later. Then of course, the Dauer Porsche "GT" racer won at Le Mans in 1994, albeit with a flat bottom and added weight. Of course, this "Dauer" car was just the factories latest evolution of the great car.
The Lotus 72 of course ranks up there, from 1970 - 75.
The Jaguar TWR XJR 14 won the WSC in 1991 with Ford power, then was repainted and repowered with a Judd and labeled a Mazda in 1992, then Porsche put some money into the project in 1995 but cutting the top off, giving a GT1 style rear wing, and other modifactions to the inside. Porsche dumped the project after rule changes and the cars were rented to Joest, who won Le Mans in 1996 and 1997 in the face of the factory GT1s. Porsche took over control of the machines in 1998 and the Joest team ran two open top factory efforts of the car, though it now beared very little resembalance to the old Jaguar from so long before. Oddly, the Joest team were nowhere in 1998 at Le Mans and the factory quit after the GT1 finally got a win under its belt.
Of course, there is the mysterious Porsche LMP car that tested for Le Mans 2000 which, according to people I have talked with, bears a resembalance to the Joest cars from 1998. Wolleck and McNish drove it, and I think Wolleck said he thought it was good enough to win. The cars were pulled after the SUV thing came about, and is proabably setting somewhere in Germany. Rumors have it that Porsche are developing a V10 engine to put in an open top car, though this is proabably 3-5 years away. Could we see a return of the old TWR tub? Who knows?
I think thats my favorite race car. Imagine that, a car built for Jag being my favorite.
The Porsche 956/962/Dauer 962 LM certainly must be high on the list. The 956 and 962 raced from 1982 to 1993 at Le Mans, even after the factory gave it up in 1988 (though the 89 Joest effort was certainly an unoffical effort). Granted, the car was revised quite a bit from different people, like the carbon fiber, closed wheel, Richard Loyd 962 or the incredible Dyson 962 a few years later. Then of course, the Dauer Porsche "GT" racer won at Le Mans in 1994, albeit with a flat bottom and added weight. Of course, this "Dauer" car was just the factories latest evolution of the great car.
The Lotus 72 of course ranks up there, from 1970 - 75.
The Jaguar TWR XJR 14 won the WSC in 1991 with Ford power, then was repainted and repowered with a Judd and labeled a Mazda in 1992, then Porsche put some money into the project in 1995 but cutting the top off, giving a GT1 style rear wing, and other modifactions to the inside. Porsche dumped the project after rule changes and the cars were rented to Joest, who won Le Mans in 1996 and 1997 in the face of the factory GT1s. Porsche took over control of the machines in 1998 and the Joest team ran two open top factory efforts of the car, though it now beared very little resembalance to the old Jaguar from so long before. Oddly, the Joest team were nowhere in 1998 at Le Mans and the factory quit after the GT1 finally got a win under its belt.
Of course, there is the mysterious Porsche LMP car that tested for Le Mans 2000 which, according to people I have talked with, bears a resembalance to the Joest cars from 1998. Wolleck and McNish drove it, and I think Wolleck said he thought it was good enough to win. The cars were pulled after the SUV thing came about, and is proabably setting somewhere in Germany. Rumors have it that Porsche are developing a V10 engine to put in an open top car, though this is proabably 3-5 years away. Could we see a return of the old TWR tub? Who knows?
I think thats my favorite race car. Imagine that, a car built for Jag being my favorite.
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#20
Catalina Park
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 13:46
Ray Bell, how about the Sulman Singer? You would know more than me but it had a very long history and so did its drivers!
#21
Ray Bell
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 15:31
Sulman Singer?
About 1936, wasn't it built, by Tom Sulman?
Ronnie Reid was racing that at Oran Park in the early seventies, but it became an 'historics only' car in 1975 or so.
And it never held any outright lap records when its chassis was forty years old...
No, sir, that was a very special car.
About 1936, wasn't it built, by Tom Sulman?
Ronnie Reid was racing that at Oran Park in the early seventies, but it became an 'historics only' car in 1975 or so.
And it never held any outright lap records when its chassis was forty years old...
No, sir, that was a very special car.
#22
cabianca
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 16:27
RDRCR
Regarding the end of the roadsters. With Clark's 65 Indy win, no one competitive wanted to be in a roadster any more. One of the neat things about Indy at one time is that it was paved, while the remainder of the Championship Trail was dirt. Roadsters were among the first to be designed specifically for Indy, not for dirt. The last dirt car to win Indy was Troy Ruttman's in 1952. Guys did qualify roadsters for quite a while after 65, but the force was now with the rear-engine funny cars.
Regarding the end of the roadsters. With Clark's 65 Indy win, no one competitive wanted to be in a roadster any more. One of the neat things about Indy at one time is that it was paved, while the remainder of the Championship Trail was dirt. Roadsters were among the first to be designed specifically for Indy, not for dirt. The last dirt car to win Indy was Troy Ruttman's in 1952. Guys did qualify roadsters for quite a while after 65, but the force was now with the rear-engine funny cars.
#23
Allen Brown
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 18:37
My favorite long-timer is Lola T330 HU2, a F5000 car built in 1973 and used by Tom Belso for three seasons before going to Theodore Racing for 1976. They took it to the US and, after a couple of races, sold it to Horst Kroll. He ran it for that last season of F5000 and then converted it to Can-Am (effectively the successor formula to F5000) and ran it either as his main car or as a guest car until the end of 1982. He then equipped it with Frissbee bodywork and ran it through to the end of 1986. Remarkably, in 1986, it won the Can-Am championship, surely the oldest and most heavily used car to win its championship.
In 1987, Kroll used it in the CAT series, the unofficial successor to Can-Am. By the end of this Kroll had run it in at least 65 races. Add to that 3 races with Theodore and three seasons with Belso (so say about 50 races with him) you get a grand total of roughly 118 races - all but five being International Championship events. And no historic racing.
As that is so close to Martin's nomination of Porsche 908/3-008 with its 115 starts, I'll go home and count up Belso's starts.
Kroll also had a 1972 Lola T300 that was still in use in 1987, but I don't think that had many starts after 1978. His third car was a 1975 Lola T400 that won a race as late as 1986.
Allen
In 1987, Kroll used it in the CAT series, the unofficial successor to Can-Am. By the end of this Kroll had run it in at least 65 races. Add to that 3 races with Theodore and three seasons with Belso (so say about 50 races with him) you get a grand total of roughly 118 races - all but five being International Championship events. And no historic racing.
As that is so close to Martin's nomination of Porsche 908/3-008 with its 115 starts, I'll go home and count up Belso's starts.
Kroll also had a 1972 Lola T300 that was still in use in 1987, but I don't think that had many starts after 1978. His third car was a 1975 Lola T400 that won a race as late as 1986.
Allen
#24
Allen Brown
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 21:08
Close, but no cigar.
In total, Lola T330 HU2 competed in 107 races: 38 with Tom Belso, 2 with Alan Jones, 1 with Bruce Allison, 60 with Horst Kroll and 6 with Howard Kelly. It only won three races in its long career: with Alan Jones at Brands Hatch 19 Apr 1976 and with Horst Kroll at Mosport 2 Jun 1985 and at Mosport 1 Jun 1986. It won the Can-Am Championship in 1986, the final year it was held and HU2's 14th competitive season.
Of those races, 44 were in F5000, so it must be close to being the most-used F5000 car. It then managed 63 of the 81 Single-Seat Can-Am races.
Can any single-seater top that?
Allen
In total, Lola T330 HU2 competed in 107 races: 38 with Tom Belso, 2 with Alan Jones, 1 with Bruce Allison, 60 with Horst Kroll and 6 with Howard Kelly. It only won three races in its long career: with Alan Jones at Brands Hatch 19 Apr 1976 and with Horst Kroll at Mosport 2 Jun 1985 and at Mosport 1 Jun 1986. It won the Can-Am Championship in 1986, the final year it was held and HU2's 14th competitive season.
Of those races, 44 were in F5000, so it must be close to being the most-used F5000 car. It then managed 63 of the 81 Single-Seat Can-Am races.
Can any single-seater top that?
Allen
#25
Ray Bell
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 21:43
The Niel Allen/Warwick Brown M10B... that would have to be close.
Not that I'm all that sure which car it was... Niel had two, but I think it was the green car, which almost won the 1971 Tasman. Alan Hamilton bought it, ran through the rest of the year, then sold it to Pat Burke for Warwick.
It was replaced by a T300, but that lasted about six laps before it destroyed Warwick's legs, then he came back in the M10B...
Where did it go after that... I'm sure it continued running for a long time? Not in years, perhaps, but race starts...
Not that I'm all that sure which car it was... Niel had two, but I think it was the green car, which almost won the 1971 Tasman. Alan Hamilton bought it, ran through the rest of the year, then sold it to Pat Burke for Warwick.
It was replaced by a T300, but that lasted about six laps before it destroyed Warwick's legs, then he came back in the M10B...
Where did it go after that... I'm sure it continued running for a long time? Not in years, perhaps, but race starts...
#26
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 21:49
Originally posted by Allen Brown
Can any single-seater top that?
Allen
I assume one-make championships dont count?
I think cars like the TWR/Porsche/Jag/333sp are impressive given how often they roll out new cars in modern racing
#27
Allen Brown
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 22:04
RayOriginally posted by Ray Bell
The Niel Allen/Warwick Brown M10B... that would have to be close.
Where did it go after that... I'm sure it continued running for a long time? Not in years, perhaps, but race starts...
That means I must be mixing up two cars. I thought Allen's main car went to Allan Hamilton and then to Kevin Bartlett while Allen's spare car went to Pat Burke. I don't know what happened to Bartlett's car after he got his T300 and I don't know what happened to the Burke/Brown car after the 1973 Gold Star series.
Did Gil Cameron have one of them later?
Allen
#28
Ray Bell
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 23:00
Not sure, Allen...
Niel Allen's cars went to Allan Hamilton and Kevin Bartlett, and I guess I'm not sure which either. Hamilton ran his car in red, Bartlett repainted his yellow... I think Allen had one in red, so that must have been the Hamilton car, though there was a blue car and a green car at one time, I'm fairly sure.
I remember in the pits at Warwick Farm first time out, Bartlett and Hamilton talking about how much the cars had cost them since ... and they were expressing the thought that the bills were large. Hence I can verify that the cars went in those directions immediately they were put on sale by Allen.
I can also specifically recall that Hamilton's went to Brown...
Niel Allen's cars went to Allan Hamilton and Kevin Bartlett, and I guess I'm not sure which either. Hamilton ran his car in red, Bartlett repainted his yellow... I think Allen had one in red, so that must have been the Hamilton car, though there was a blue car and a green car at one time, I'm fairly sure.
I remember in the pits at Warwick Farm first time out, Bartlett and Hamilton talking about how much the cars had cost them since ... and they were expressing the thought that the bills were large. Hence I can verify that the cars went in those directions immediately they were put on sale by Allen.
I can also specifically recall that Hamilton's went to Brown...
#29
Speed Demon
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 23:12
Slightly OT, but has anyone ever started a thread on Warwick Farm? It keeps cropping up and while I have the track map my knowledge of the history of the circuit is scant.
#30
Ray Bell
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Posted 19 February 2002 - 23:23
There's photos of it dotted throughout the TNF, check some of my early threads and posts... and Don posted about the day he walked around there once too.
Great place, too great to have gone the way it did. It was properly run, it was fantastic in the way it balanced the need for power and handling.
Great place, too great to have gone the way it did. It was properly run, it was fantastic in the way it balanced the need for power and handling.
#31
stevew
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Posted 20 February 2002 - 04:08
I always wondered why the Indy "roadsters" were called that instead of "tracksters"...
As far as longevity goes, there is probably a USAC midget or sprint car out there that has competed in a lot of races.
As far as longevity goes, there is probably a USAC midget or sprint car out there that has competed in a lot of races.
#32
Bernd
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Posted 20 February 2002 - 04:18
Certain Cooper & Lotus chassis had some remarkably long life times in the 60's. After the factory was done with them they were sold off usually to South Africa & Australia in particular for the Springbok & Tasman Series. Quite a few of these cars are still raced to this very day in Historics.
Warwick Farm was a truly great little circuit I've cycled it but it was closed before I had the chance to drive it. I am involved in the project to make it for Grand Prix Legends and it is coming along slowly but surely. I guess I got to drive it after all
I'm making a trip to a few circuits next month in particular Longford. I may drop into the Farm and post some pictures of the sad remains which I will definately do for Longford. I've got a brand spanking new digital camera which allows me to take 100's of pictures at a time! Hog Heaven
Warwick Farm was a truly great little circuit I've cycled it but it was closed before I had the chance to drive it. I am involved in the project to make it for Grand Prix Legends and it is coming along slowly but surely. I guess I got to drive it after all
I'm making a trip to a few circuits next month in particular Longford. I may drop into the Farm and post some pictures of the sad remains which I will definately do for Longford. I've got a brand spanking new digital camera which allows me to take 100's of pictures at a time! Hog Heaven
#33
Ray Bell
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- 82,296 posts
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Posted 20 February 2002 - 05:28
Of the leftover Tasman cars, Bernd, very few really lasted all that long...
The Lotus 39 (1966) was raced through to about 1978 or so, but it was a rare thing. And an also-ran...
You simply can't include Historic Racing in this.
The Lotus 39 (1966) was raced through to about 1978 or so, but it was a rare thing. And an also-ran...
You simply can't include Historic Racing in this.
#34
FEV
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- 909 posts
- Joined: May 01
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Posted 20 February 2002 - 05:40
Not a car but an engine : the 4 cylinder DOHC Offenhauser didn't change a lot during 40 years (even if it did have some important modifications by Meyer & Drake in the late 40s for instance). Quite a remarkable career - thounsands of wins. The winningest engine in history ?
#35
cabianca
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- 712 posts
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Posted 20 February 2002 - 06:06
I would say winningest engine in history is the lowly Chevrolet pushrod V-8. It competed in so many different forms of racing.
#36
cabianca
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- 712 posts
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Posted 20 February 2002 - 06:13
Stevew,
The Indy "roadsters" were called that because someone (or many people) thought they bore a resemblence to cars that were raced in California at the time and were called "track roadsters". These were usually based on 1930s Fords and had the high, downward curving back of those cars. The Indy roadsters also had a high, wide back compared to the "dirt cars" formerly seen at Indianapolis. Some say Bill Vukovich originally called his Kurtis a roadster, but others say the term evolved from several sources. Everyone seems to agree that it had to do with the styling of the rear of the early Kurtis KK500.
The Indy "roadsters" were called that because someone (or many people) thought they bore a resemblence to cars that were raced in California at the time and were called "track roadsters". These were usually based on 1930s Fords and had the high, downward curving back of those cars. The Indy roadsters also had a high, wide back compared to the "dirt cars" formerly seen at Indianapolis. Some say Bill Vukovich originally called his Kurtis a roadster, but others say the term evolved from several sources. Everyone seems to agree that it had to do with the styling of the rear of the early Kurtis KK500.
#37
Ray Bell
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- 82,296 posts
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Posted 20 February 2002 - 07:16
Originally posted by cabianca
I would say winningest engine in history is the lowly Chevrolet pushrod V-8. It competed in so many different forms of racing.
I was going to post the same thing.
Plenty of speedway wins, F5000, touring cars, sports cars, production sports cars, even some racing cars from the front engined era... the Maybach and Tornado both won with Chev engines in Australia, there were old Ferraris and Maseratis in South America so equipped for instance
#38
Kaha
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- 74 posts
- Joined: November 01
Member
Posted 21 February 2002 - 23:05
IMO the winningest engine is the FIAT Twincam engine (in all its forms).
Both in absolut numbers of World champoinships: 13, and for the fact that it was successfully used in so many types of racing. 11 WCs in rally, 2 WCs in Sportscar racing, and also used a lot in formula racing (altough in lower formulas)
Both in absolut numbers of World champoinships: 13, and for the fact that it was successfully used in so many types of racing. 11 WCs in rally, 2 WCs in Sportscar racing, and also used a lot in formula racing (altough in lower formulas)
#39
dbw
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- 993 posts
- Joined: October 00
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Posted 21 February 2002 - 23:18
i suspect there are a few formula vees that are still running after quite a long time......
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#40
fines
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- 9,647 posts
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Posted 22 February 2002 - 19:35
From across the pond there are many fine examples of this, the AAA and USAC cracks used to campaign their cars for years and years. This is probably even more the case for Sprints and Midgets, but in the National Championship there were already quite a few chassis with outstanding histories. Like the famed "Basement Bessie", built by Ray Nichels and Paul Russo in the spring of 1950. IIRC, it had 88 starts up until 1964, all in the category it was built for! Also, there was a Kurtis-Kraft KK4000 (chassis 343-51), originally built for John McDaniel in 1951 and used right through the fifties, sixties and seventies! It still competed in every round of the 1971 Silver Crown, owned by Carl Gehlhausen (father of Spike), and probably even later. Haven't come around to count its starts, though. And the Pat Clancy six-wheeler, built in 1948 and converted to 4 wheels one year later, was used in the USAC championship until 1961 and then converted to a Sprint Car, and probably used for many years still!
#41
Doug Nye
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- 11,939 posts
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Posted 22 February 2002 - 23:01
If you are talking longest used racing cars as in single-seaters built for competition but used in speed hill-climbing as opposed to racing, British enthusiast Basil Davenport's GN 'Wasp' enjoyed extraordinary longevity, with Basil campaigning it from the 1920s into the 1970s. The two grew old disgracefully together...
DCN
DCN
#42
David McKinney
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- 14,156 posts
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Posted 23 February 2002 - 06:18
I personally would discount Spider on two grounds - first, because its later apperances were restricted to vintage events, which is cheating a bit, and also because the 1946 car had a different chassis, engine and transmission from the original, which by my definiition would make it a different car.
Excluding vintage and historic competition, lots of cars competing in British events into the 1950s fell under the accepted UK definition of "vintage", ie, built before 1 January 1931, and many Vauxhall 30/98s, Bentleys and Frazers Nash would have had more or less continuous racing histories from the 1920s to the 1950s (apart from the war years), before being pensioned off into old-car categories.
One of the leading contenders for the title of longest-running car in New Zealand would have to be a 1923 Marlborough-Thomas which I last saw in action in 1963, albeit in much modified form and with Ford V8 engine.
Excluding vintage and historic competition, lots of cars competing in British events into the 1950s fell under the accepted UK definition of "vintage", ie, built before 1 January 1931, and many Vauxhall 30/98s, Bentleys and Frazers Nash would have had more or less continuous racing histories from the 1920s to the 1950s (apart from the war years), before being pensioned off into old-car categories.
One of the leading contenders for the title of longest-running car in New Zealand would have to be a 1923 Marlborough-Thomas which I last saw in action in 1963, albeit in much modified form and with Ford V8 engine.
#43
Graham Clayton
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- 1,377 posts
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Posted 20 July 2009 - 03:54
Jack Brabham's #28 v-twin engined speedcar that he raced in the late 1940's and early 1950's was being raced by Len Golding in Adelaide up to 1961 at least, so that is approximately a career of 12 to 13 years for the car. I believe that the car was still using the original V-twin engine in 1961 as well.
#44
Graham Clayton
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- 1,377 posts
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Posted 20 July 2009 - 04:07
I have just remembered a car that has had nearly 30 years of racing in Australia. It is the Alfa-Romeo Alfetta GTV-Chevrolet sports sedan/TranzAm car that has been driven by Tony Edmonson, Brian Smith and Tony Ricciardello. The car won the Australian Sports Sedan Championship with Edmondson driving back in 1980, and was still competitive in 2009, with Ricciardello leading the championship, after winning the championship in 2007 and finishing 2nd in 2008.
Edited by Graham Clayton, 20 July 2009 - 04:09.
#45
Lee Nicolle
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- 11,292 posts
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Posted 20 July 2009 - 04:56
The Ricciardelo Alfa has been 2 seperate cars. The first one I believe is still in Perth. The current K+A built one has been around since the mid 90s though, abliet with some heavy updates.I have just remembered a car that has had nearly 30 years of racing in Australia. It is the Alfa-Romeo Alfetta GTV-Chevrolet sports sedan/TranzAm car that has been driven by Tony Edmonson, Brian Smith and Tony Ricciardello. The car won the Australian Sports Sedan Championship with Edmondson driving back in 1980, and was still competitive in 2009, with Ricciardello leading the championship, after winning the championship in 2007 and finishing 2nd in 2008.
The Brabham twin midget is still around and being used occasionally in classic speedway events.There is a lot of cars in classic speedway that have been around for a very long time.While most have have been rebuilt from very basic bits and pices some have survived largely intact. My ex Garry Williams Supermod was rescued as a complete rolling chassis as last racedin about 82.It was originally restored to its original 1968 owner and I have updated it to how it raced in the mid 70s in its most succesful period.The classic example though is the ex Snowy White modified sprintcar. When Snowy sold it it was complete,as last raced in 82. Snowy reckoned that if you put some fresh fuel in and give it a push it would go. And it probably would have, when I rebuilt the engine it was still serviceable though tired. But all the major components were reused except the cam.
There is another thread on here similar to this which mentions Jim Doigs Motorlab Asp sports racing car which has been racing from the early 70s and still racing now.1 owner, 1 sponsor all that time. Probably a record.
#46
Terry Walker
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- 3,005 posts
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Posted 20 July 2009 - 14:03
In 1987 Ian Jones moved from Melbourne to Perth, bringing his Daveric Mk 6 Formula Vee with him. It's still going strong today, still in the front ranks of the F Vee 1200 cc class. It's never stopped being raced. How long Ian had it before he came West I do not know. If we had historic Vees here, which we don't, it would no doubt be eligible for the Historic class, but the current owner is having too much fun in the mainstream to be interested in historics.
#47
AlMark
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- 82 posts
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Posted 20 July 2009 - 16:12
My favorite single long-lived race car is Ferrari 250 LM #5893. It won Le Mans in 1965, 9th at Daytona in 1966, DNF at Daytona and Le Mans in 1968, 8th at Le Mans in 1969, and finished up it's active career with a 7th at Daytona in 1970. I wonder what it was "thinking" when it went sometimes a year without being raced. Sort of like a lightly used race horse I fantasize.
#48
HistoricMustang
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Posted 20 July 2009 - 20:32
What is the longest a single car has competed for: ie how many seasons or races has a single model competed in?
In its original form?
I would suggest the 1939 Ford.
Henry
#49
Melanie Jones
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- 2 posts
- Joined: September 09
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Posted 06 September 2009 - 03:38
In 1987 Ian Jones moved from Melbourne to Perth, bringing his Daveric Mk 6 Formula Vee with him. It's still going strong today, still in the front ranks of the F Vee 1200 cc class. It's never stopped being raced. How long Ian had it before he came West I do not know. If we had historic Vees here, which we don't, it would no doubt be eligible for the Historic class, but the current owner is having too much fun in the mainstream to be interested in historics.
Dad (Ian Jones), Dave and Eric built the car from scratch and I believe started racing it in 1984 or 85...I was pretty young then but have vivid memories of looooong evenings spent in the garage! I was so surprised to find this post! I live in America now and got a little nostalgic when I realized it was Father's Day in Aus today. I hope you get this message! Hope you are well.
Melanie Jones
#50
rms
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- 143 posts
- Joined: June 07
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Posted 07 September 2009 - 13:24
The Wortmeyer SCV hillclimb car is still competative and capable of winning Australian titles.
Was built in 1971.
Was built in 1971.
