I have always been a little confused by the relationship between 'Tasman Formula' and 'Formula 1'.
I gather the the 'Tasman Formula' for cars up to 2.5 ltr. ran between 1964 and 1969 - prior to that, races were formula libre, and after that they were essentially F5000. This means that for 2 years the Tasman formula was a full 1 ltr. greater than F1, and F1 cars didn't stand a chance, but for 4 years the formula was a mere 500cc less than F1.
I remember that, in 1966, because of the shortage of 3 ltr. engines, several F1 teams ran 'Tasman' cars in F1 Grands Prix, so that leads me to the question that is really puzzling me - does that mean that ALL Tasman cars built between 1966 and 1969 would have been eligible for F1? Should I revise my opinion of what is a F1 car? Does anyone regard Tasman cars like the Mildren Alfa as 'Formula 1'?
Tasman formula
Started by
rod
, Feb 21 2002 15:58
29 replies to this topic
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#2
Rob29
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Posted 21 February 2002 - 17:07
Certainly some 1965 F1 cars were fitted with 2 litre motors for '66 Tasman series then returned to Europe for F1. I saw Jackie Stewart drive his 2 litre BRM to victory in the 1966 3 litre F1 Monaco GP.
Despite one years notice,just about no one was ready for the 1966 season with a complete new car & engine. Curiously the Tasman series meant that engines left over from the 1954-1960 F1 had been developed and found a new life in 1966. As to what can be called an F1 car,remember at that time there were almost no rules other that the engine size.You had to have a roll hoop,and open wheels were mandatory from '66,that was about it!
Despite one years notice,just about no one was ready for the 1966 season with a complete new car & engine. Curiously the Tasman series meant that engines left over from the 1954-1960 F1 had been developed and found a new life in 1966. As to what can be called an F1 car,remember at that time there were almost no rules other that the engine size.You had to have a roll hoop,and open wheels were mandatory from '66,that was about it!
#3
Doug Nye
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Posted 21 February 2002 - 17:34
No fellers - it wasn't quite like that. Tasman Formula evolved from the Antipodean summer series of races which served in many ways to keep northern hemisphere pros and travelling private owner/drivers busy during their winter, from as early as 1953-54.
The New Zealand Grand Prix Association ran their Formule Libre GP on Ardmore aerodrome outside Auckland in the North Island, usually in early January, and the keen types from north of the equator - like BRM, Ken Wharton, Moss, Prince 'Bira', Peter Whitehead, Reg Parnell and others - who made the trip were approached by Australian race promoters to cross the sea to Oz and race there too before returning home. When the 1956 Olympic Games were held in Melbourne in October/November that year Moss and Behra - plus Parnell and Whitehead - raced against some very good locals there, and Australians like Lex Davison, Stan Jones (Alan's father), Alec Mildren etc would make the trip to New Zillan - as Kiwis seem to pronounce it - and did their bit for fraternal relations there too.
All of which evolved into a magnificent race series, to Formule Libre. Ultimately it became apparent that a max. 3-litre open-wheeled single-seater Formula a la F1 made real sense for Tasman events - i.e. events in NZ and Orstrylia - and this was born in mind by the backers of 3-litre limit InterContinental Formula when it was promoted in 1960-61.
Tasman racing was dominated by the Indy-originated 2.7-litre Climax FPF engine in predominantly Coopers and Brabham chassis 1962-63, then from 1964 a blanket 2.5-litre limit was applied which made genuine old 2 1/2-litre F1-sized Climax FPF engines ideal, and saw some 2.7s reduced to 2.5 to participate. A popular 1.5litre class akin to US Formula B filled the grids, and when Sir Alfred Owen of the Owen Organisation - owners of BRM - wished to promote the NZ and Australian-based companies within his group, the successful 1.5-litre V8 F1 BRM P261s were stretched to nearly 2-litres, then ultimately 2070cc to add torque and power with which to combat the 2.5-litre 4-cyl cars. Climax produced one 2-litre FWMV-type V8 for Clark in 1967 in Lotus 33 'R14'.
But Tasman Formula cars commonly ran much smaller fuel tanks than contemporary F1 - because the races were far shorter - and while they looked similar, and some chassis were indeed identical - they should not be confused.
Tasman Formula was replaced by Formula 5000 ultimately, and the greatest days of the Tazzy series were over. Another sadness...
DCN
The New Zealand Grand Prix Association ran their Formule Libre GP on Ardmore aerodrome outside Auckland in the North Island, usually in early January, and the keen types from north of the equator - like BRM, Ken Wharton, Moss, Prince 'Bira', Peter Whitehead, Reg Parnell and others - who made the trip were approached by Australian race promoters to cross the sea to Oz and race there too before returning home. When the 1956 Olympic Games were held in Melbourne in October/November that year Moss and Behra - plus Parnell and Whitehead - raced against some very good locals there, and Australians like Lex Davison, Stan Jones (Alan's father), Alec Mildren etc would make the trip to New Zillan - as Kiwis seem to pronounce it - and did their bit for fraternal relations there too.
All of which evolved into a magnificent race series, to Formule Libre. Ultimately it became apparent that a max. 3-litre open-wheeled single-seater Formula a la F1 made real sense for Tasman events - i.e. events in NZ and Orstrylia - and this was born in mind by the backers of 3-litre limit InterContinental Formula when it was promoted in 1960-61.
Tasman racing was dominated by the Indy-originated 2.7-litre Climax FPF engine in predominantly Coopers and Brabham chassis 1962-63, then from 1964 a blanket 2.5-litre limit was applied which made genuine old 2 1/2-litre F1-sized Climax FPF engines ideal, and saw some 2.7s reduced to 2.5 to participate. A popular 1.5litre class akin to US Formula B filled the grids, and when Sir Alfred Owen of the Owen Organisation - owners of BRM - wished to promote the NZ and Australian-based companies within his group, the successful 1.5-litre V8 F1 BRM P261s were stretched to nearly 2-litres, then ultimately 2070cc to add torque and power with which to combat the 2.5-litre 4-cyl cars. Climax produced one 2-litre FWMV-type V8 for Clark in 1967 in Lotus 33 'R14'.
But Tasman Formula cars commonly ran much smaller fuel tanks than contemporary F1 - because the races were far shorter - and while they looked similar, and some chassis were indeed identical - they should not be confused.
Tasman Formula was replaced by Formula 5000 ultimately, and the greatest days of the Tazzy series were over. Another sadness...
DCN
#4
Doug Nye
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Posted 21 February 2002 - 17:36
Re my opening remark 'i wasn't quite like that' I was typing that response while Rob posted his response, so I wasn't casting aspersions upon his contribution - if you see what mean. Oh dear - this Forum business can get complicated, can't it. Sorry.
DCN
DCN
#5
ry6
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Posted 21 February 2002 - 17:42
Probably my favourite single seater race car is the T79 Cooper Tasman car (FL-1-64 or FL-1-65?)
which was maybe the first McLaren!
This beauty was driven by John Love (as an independent) and very nearly won the 1968 South African GP.
Interestingly for the long GP John fitted pannier tanks and gave the slim Cooper even more "interesting" dimensions.
As mentioned in an earlier reply the fuel problem cost John a GP win.
Thiscar is now owned by Bob Woodward in the USA.
Can anyone add more to the "first" McLaren inference. (The car was certainly a Firestone development mule.) OOPS!!
which was maybe the first McLaren!
This beauty was driven by John Love (as an independent) and very nearly won the 1968 South African GP.
Interestingly for the long GP John fitted pannier tanks and gave the slim Cooper even more "interesting" dimensions.
As mentioned in an earlier reply the fuel problem cost John a GP win.
Thiscar is now owned by Bob Woodward in the USA.
Can anyone add more to the "first" McLaren inference. (The car was certainly a Firestone development mule.) OOPS!!
#6
Allen Brown
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Posted 21 February 2002 - 19:20
Rob
I guess any mention of the "Firestone development mule" McLaren M2A is well OT. Its other claim to fame is that it met its end in a firework accident.
"The First McLaren" is also a title I've heard applied to the Zerex Special, later Bruce's "Cooper-Oldsmobile" and step-father of the McLaren M1A.
Do you feel a new thread coming on?
Allen
I guess any mention of the "Firestone development mule" McLaren M2A is well OT. Its other claim to fame is that it met its end in a firework accident.
"The First McLaren" is also a title I've heard applied to the Zerex Special, later Bruce's "Cooper-Oldsmobile" and step-father of the McLaren M1A.
Do you feel a new thread coming on?
Allen
#7
David McKinney
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Posted 21 February 2002 - 19:42
Off the top of my head, both the Cooper T62 which McLaren raced in NZ and Australia in early 1963 and the T70s he and Timmy Mayer campaigned in the first Tasman series a year later were designed and built by BMcL and his team, as was the Cooper-Oldsmobile sportscar which evolved from the Zerex Special. All were really Coopers in name only.
Having said that, with a famous Cooper historian in our midst, I might have to retract some of that later...
Having said that, with a famous Cooper historian in our midst, I might have to retract some of that later...
#8
Allen Brown
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Posted 21 February 2002 - 19:54
Was the T62 actually "designed"? I thought it was just a T60 with a 2.5 shoved in the back.
I'd accept the T70 'though. Or did any other "McLaren" race before 4 Jan 1964? The "Cooper-Olds" was first seen at Oulton Park on 11 Apr 1964.
Come to think of it, we have a famous Cooper and McLaren historian in our midst, so I might have to retract some of that later too...
Allen
I'd accept the T70 'though. Or did any other "McLaren" race before 4 Jan 1964? The "Cooper-Olds" was first seen at Oulton Park on 11 Apr 1964.
Come to think of it, we have a famous Cooper and McLaren historian in our midst, so I might have to retract some of that later too...
Allen
#9
Ray Bell
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Posted 21 February 2002 - 20:41
I would have thought that the Cooper T62 was far too closely related to the F1 car from 1962 to be anything other than a Cooper.
In appearance it certainly was all Cooper, and the fanfare and distinguishing super-slimline layout of the 1964 cars would seem to me to make them more McLaren than Cooper while the T62 was more Cooper than McLaren...
Davison advertised the car for sale at the end of 1964 with this picture, note that the only real change obvious from the F1 car is the bulge over the carburettors.
Unfortunately there was very little left after Tresise finally got first gear at Longford... and the car was dismantled from this point on...
It took me about four hours to find the photo of Davo, so Allen's post has appeared in the meantime... I agree with him...
In appearance it certainly was all Cooper, and the fanfare and distinguishing super-slimline layout of the 1964 cars would seem to me to make them more McLaren than Cooper while the T62 was more Cooper than McLaren...
Davison advertised the car for sale at the end of 1964 with this picture, note that the only real change obvious from the F1 car is the bulge over the carburettors.
Unfortunately there was very little left after Tresise finally got first gear at Longford... and the car was dismantled from this point on...
It took me about four hours to find the photo of Davo, so Allen's post has appeared in the meantime... I agree with him...
#10
Doug Nye
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Posted 21 February 2002 - 21:46
Oh dear - Dave McKinney's right in all areas and so's Allen Brown - as they almost invariably are - but might I just point out one minor factor in this business of what was the first McLaren and what might have been and what definitely wasn't....?
Let's spool back a little first, for an overview.
In the '50s at the Cooper Car Co off Hollyfield Road, you could walk into the stores, smile sweetly at Mrs Green, and buy a bare chassis, or a set of running gear, or even ask to see Mr John or - if you were soft in the head - Mr Charles, and negotiate to use their chassis jig, on which to weld together a bunch of tubes that you could buy from their tube store.
Bearing in triumph either a) your Cooper-made frame purchased complete or b) your self-welded frame produced by yr gdslf, you could then proceed home, and begin to make up YOUR car with YOUR tweaks built into it from new.
So we then had the Jack Walton Cooper-Bristol 2-seated single-seater - if you see what I mean - and the Tommy Atkins Cooper-Maserati, and the Hume Cooper and the Golding Cooper and so many other things, which were largely Cooper but essentially owner-built.
When Bruce came to have Harry Pearce, I believe, build up his '61-62 Tasman car or his '62-63 Tasman car or whatever, he was still Mr Charles' No 1 driver, fully retained and employed by the Cooper Car Co, and there was no separate umbrella corporate identity to take the credit...so it was 'Bruce's Tasman Cooper ' - and it was, in reality a Cooper - just that, built in a manner little different to any of so many of the cars assemled out of their bits by their more proficient customers.
But by 1964, when he and his chaps built up the two Tasman cars for the 1964 Tasman series, and they also fiddled about with the Cooper-Zerex, FUBAR - call it what you will - they were operating under his own Bruce McLaren Racing Team Ltd banner, with Mr Charles's permission. I mean, it might have been pokey, and it might have had a dirt floor, but they een had their own workshop.
I hope you will agree, that makes those cars distinctly different from the earlier McLaren-Tazzy Coopers - and in retrospect, since from that early root a mighty oak grew, it makes them uniquely important cars. What a pit Bob Woodward's ex-Bruce/John Love car was mangled in the collision with Sytner's Tazzy Brabham last September at Goodwood...
Does this make sense?
Oh PS - I went to Longford in Tasmania last October, and was bedazzled by the memorabilia in the pub there, the same pub torpedoed by Lex Davison's Cooper during one celebrated Tasman race weekend - until I came across Timmy Mayer's crash helmet, displayed in a perspex case above the memorial stone which was raised in his memory at the roadside by the fatal tree, and which had been displaced by earthworking.
I remember Timmy. I couldn't look at his scuffed and battered crash helmet without a lump in my throat. I thought it was a horrible exhibit.
And it was the only thing about a memorable trip which I occasionally recall, and choke over. I'm sorry, but I think the Longford publican and the local enthusiasts really let themselves down there.
DCN
Let's spool back a little first, for an overview.
In the '50s at the Cooper Car Co off Hollyfield Road, you could walk into the stores, smile sweetly at Mrs Green, and buy a bare chassis, or a set of running gear, or even ask to see Mr John or - if you were soft in the head - Mr Charles, and negotiate to use their chassis jig, on which to weld together a bunch of tubes that you could buy from their tube store.
Bearing in triumph either a) your Cooper-made frame purchased complete or b) your self-welded frame produced by yr gdslf, you could then proceed home, and begin to make up YOUR car with YOUR tweaks built into it from new.
So we then had the Jack Walton Cooper-Bristol 2-seated single-seater - if you see what I mean - and the Tommy Atkins Cooper-Maserati, and the Hume Cooper and the Golding Cooper and so many other things, which were largely Cooper but essentially owner-built.
When Bruce came to have Harry Pearce, I believe, build up his '61-62 Tasman car or his '62-63 Tasman car or whatever, he was still Mr Charles' No 1 driver, fully retained and employed by the Cooper Car Co, and there was no separate umbrella corporate identity to take the credit...so it was 'Bruce's Tasman Cooper ' - and it was, in reality a Cooper - just that, built in a manner little different to any of so many of the cars assemled out of their bits by their more proficient customers.
But by 1964, when he and his chaps built up the two Tasman cars for the 1964 Tasman series, and they also fiddled about with the Cooper-Zerex, FUBAR - call it what you will - they were operating under his own Bruce McLaren Racing Team Ltd banner, with Mr Charles's permission. I mean, it might have been pokey, and it might have had a dirt floor, but they een had their own workshop.
I hope you will agree, that makes those cars distinctly different from the earlier McLaren-Tazzy Coopers - and in retrospect, since from that early root a mighty oak grew, it makes them uniquely important cars. What a pit Bob Woodward's ex-Bruce/John Love car was mangled in the collision with Sytner's Tazzy Brabham last September at Goodwood...
Does this make sense?
Oh PS - I went to Longford in Tasmania last October, and was bedazzled by the memorabilia in the pub there, the same pub torpedoed by Lex Davison's Cooper during one celebrated Tasman race weekend - until I came across Timmy Mayer's crash helmet, displayed in a perspex case above the memorial stone which was raised in his memory at the roadside by the fatal tree, and which had been displaced by earthworking.
I remember Timmy. I couldn't look at his scuffed and battered crash helmet without a lump in my throat. I thought it was a horrible exhibit.
And it was the only thing about a memorable trip which I occasionally recall, and choke over. I'm sorry, but I think the Longford publican and the local enthusiasts really let themselves down there.
DCN
#11
Bernd
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Posted 21 February 2002 - 22:31
I am off to Longford next month for a fact finding trip. Doug perhaps you would like to check out this thread
http://www.atlasf1.c...hlight=Longford
Any contributions would be most welcome, not to mention your critique of the screenshots ;)
http://www.atlasf1.c...hlight=Longford
Any contributions would be most welcome, not to mention your critique of the screenshots ;)
#12
Ray Bell
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Posted 22 February 2002 - 02:00
I have to say that I agree with Doug, specially as I spent that hour or so talking to Tim just a week before his death...
I haven't seen the exhibit at the pub, but I have seen photos, and I'm acutely aware from a lot of descriptions I've had that the true history is being lost among the amateur guidance and direction there is for this display.
Tim's plaque should still be where it was put originally, too... marking the spot where he hit the tree broadside on. I do wish I had photgraphed that when I was there the following year...
As for the Cooper Olds... was this not just the Penske car reconfigured?
I haven't seen the exhibit at the pub, but I have seen photos, and I'm acutely aware from a lot of descriptions I've had that the true history is being lost among the amateur guidance and direction there is for this display.
Tim's plaque should still be where it was put originally, too... marking the spot where he hit the tree broadside on. I do wish I had photgraphed that when I was there the following year...
As for the Cooper Olds... was this not just the Penske car reconfigured?
#13
Doug Nye
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Posted 22 February 2002 - 09:13
Yep - Bruce's car wasthe Penske car reconfigured, but very heavily so - as in new from the rear cockpit frame back and with the Olds V8 installed instead of the Climax FPF 4-cyl that Penske had used. Incidentally, d'you all recall the Teddy Mayer line about Roger Penske - ...the only man in racing who still struts when he's sitting down".
DCN
DCN
#14
Allen Brown
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Posted 22 February 2002 - 14:35
The Zerex/Cooper. Now that's a car I'd really like to find.
Any idea where it is now, Doug?
Allen
Any idea where it is now, Doug?
Allen
#15
Ray Bell
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Posted 22 February 2002 - 14:46
Originally posted by Doug Nye
Yep - Bruce's car wasthe Penske car reconfigured, but very heavily so - as in new from the rear cockpit frame back and with the Olds V8 installed instead of the Climax FPF 4-cyl that Penske had used....
Didn't it also have the driver's seat offset?
Penske ran it with the passenger seat offset in an outrigger position, as I recall, I think that was agin the rules in the old Dart...
#16
Doug Nye
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Posted 22 February 2002 - 22:57
Oh Gawd - here we go - at this rate I will NEVER find time to finish BRM.
But this is interesting...I hope.
There are some abiding mysteries that frustrate intensely. I have never been able to unravel the fate of the McLaren team's Cooper-Oldsmobile, ex-Zerex Cooper. Tyler Alexander should know, but he has no interest in looking backwards, just 'it was thrown away'... and I am SURE the truth is more complex. But after that 1964 season 'The Jolly Green Giant' as it was called because its cut and remade chassis frame was painted garden gate green from a can bought at the local hardware shop by Eoin Young just vanishes into thin air.
It had started life - as Allen will confirm - as an InterContinentalFormula Cooper T53P. Roger Penske had it modified into a whizzbang sports-racing car for the US West Coast Professional series internationals of 1962, retaining the centreline driving seat and controls, with a regs fulfilling offset passenger seat tucked into one side sponson as it were, enwrapped by the aluminium coachwork. With Zerex - which oif the top of my head was anti-freeze, I think - sponsorship he blitzed all opposition in this car, using an Indy-type 2.7 Climax FPF 4-cyl engine.
The US press and racing fraternity dubbed it the FUBAR - 'Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition' - but Penske laughed (quite rightly) all the way to the bank.
For 1963 he was forced by the rule-makers to unbend that particular set of rules and regularise the Zerex - which by that time was Mecom entered, I seem to recall - with offset steering and controls and seats each side of the centreline, and a bigger 'hole where the man goes'. In this form the car again excelled and won, for example, the wonderful Guards Trophy race at Brands Hatch in England - for the second time????, without looking it up I cannot confirm, but I'm meant to be a pro which means I don't look it up unless somebody pays me to (this is my missis, Valerie, saying this in the background). Actually she's had a bad time with me recently - last week she complained of having become an Adobe Photoshop widow as I spent every hour teaching myself to scan, retouch and print photographs, and now she's an Atlas TNF widow... I'm in deep trouble here, I tell you...
I digress.
During the winter of 1963-64, Penske/Mecom offered the regularised Guards-winning car for sale, Bruce bought it and I believe Tyler collected it from Florida. It was run in England first with the big Climax installed, then Bruce and Tyler and their chaps ripped into it, rebuilt the rear end and installed the Oldsmobile V8 engine - BMcL raced it for the rest of the year - and then into 1965 with the first McLaren M1A entering stage left - the old car vanishes, simply vanishes, and I have never been able even to get a scent of it.
One thing, Roger Nathan built up for an American stylist a preposterous road car called the Ikenga. The Ikenga lived in an Isle of Man museum formany years, and is now elsewhere, having sold at auction. It is based on an early 'McLaen' tube frame which I suspect may have been the Keith S John 'Radio London' M1B...or possibly, just possibly, something more interesting....
Comments? Observations? You did ask...
DCN
But this is interesting...I hope.
There are some abiding mysteries that frustrate intensely. I have never been able to unravel the fate of the McLaren team's Cooper-Oldsmobile, ex-Zerex Cooper. Tyler Alexander should know, but he has no interest in looking backwards, just 'it was thrown away'... and I am SURE the truth is more complex. But after that 1964 season 'The Jolly Green Giant' as it was called because its cut and remade chassis frame was painted garden gate green from a can bought at the local hardware shop by Eoin Young just vanishes into thin air.
It had started life - as Allen will confirm - as an InterContinentalFormula Cooper T53P. Roger Penske had it modified into a whizzbang sports-racing car for the US West Coast Professional series internationals of 1962, retaining the centreline driving seat and controls, with a regs fulfilling offset passenger seat tucked into one side sponson as it were, enwrapped by the aluminium coachwork. With Zerex - which oif the top of my head was anti-freeze, I think - sponsorship he blitzed all opposition in this car, using an Indy-type 2.7 Climax FPF 4-cyl engine.
The US press and racing fraternity dubbed it the FUBAR - 'Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition' - but Penske laughed (quite rightly) all the way to the bank.
For 1963 he was forced by the rule-makers to unbend that particular set of rules and regularise the Zerex - which by that time was Mecom entered, I seem to recall - with offset steering and controls and seats each side of the centreline, and a bigger 'hole where the man goes'. In this form the car again excelled and won, for example, the wonderful Guards Trophy race at Brands Hatch in England - for the second time????, without looking it up I cannot confirm, but I'm meant to be a pro which means I don't look it up unless somebody pays me to (this is my missis, Valerie, saying this in the background). Actually she's had a bad time with me recently - last week she complained of having become an Adobe Photoshop widow as I spent every hour teaching myself to scan, retouch and print photographs, and now she's an Atlas TNF widow... I'm in deep trouble here, I tell you...
I digress.
During the winter of 1963-64, Penske/Mecom offered the regularised Guards-winning car for sale, Bruce bought it and I believe Tyler collected it from Florida. It was run in England first with the big Climax installed, then Bruce and Tyler and their chaps ripped into it, rebuilt the rear end and installed the Oldsmobile V8 engine - BMcL raced it for the rest of the year - and then into 1965 with the first McLaren M1A entering stage left - the old car vanishes, simply vanishes, and I have never been able even to get a scent of it.
One thing, Roger Nathan built up for an American stylist a preposterous road car called the Ikenga. The Ikenga lived in an Isle of Man museum formany years, and is now elsewhere, having sold at auction. It is based on an early 'McLaen' tube frame which I suspect may have been the Keith S John 'Radio London' M1B...or possibly, just possibly, something more interesting....
Comments? Observations? You did ask...
DCN
#17
Ray Bell
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Posted 22 February 2002 - 23:04
Originally posted by Doug Nye
....without looking it up I cannot confirm, but I'm meant to be a pro which means I don't look it up unless somebody pays me to (this is my missis, Valerie, saying this in the background). Actually she's had a bad time with me recently - last week she complained of having become an Adobe Photoshop widow as I spent every hour teaching myself to scan, retouch and print photographs, and now she's an Atlas TNF widow... I'm in deep trouble here, I tell you......
The only thing not totally familiar here is that I don't have the material to look it up!
That Guards' Trophy race also included a Monaco driven by Tim Mayer... and thanks for correcting me about the actual timing of the 'regularising' of the seating position. One does tend to forget... that it's been 38 years!
#18
David McKinney
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Posted 23 February 2002 - 06:23
Very gentlemanly of you to use that definition of the acronym, Doug ;)Originally posted by Doug Nye
The US press and racing fraternity dubbed it the FUBAR - 'Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition'
#19
Doug Nye
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Posted 23 February 2002 - 08:25
Nothing if not well brung up...
DCN
DCN
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#20
Falcadore
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Posted 23 February 2002 - 12:38
While off thread, and possibly even off topic and probably deserving a thread of it's own....
one of the great Tasman era circuits is about to die.
In todays Courier Mail, listed in the auction pages is this Tuesday at 10am an auction will be held at Lakeside International Raceway. Nearly everything that can be moved and quite a bit of the stuff that can't, including sheds, toilet blocks, demountable media centre, spare armco, and huge list of memorabilia goes under the hammer. Lakeside was sold by tnder a few months ago and the new owners, the Pine River Shire Council seem on the surface to want to close the place down. Those fighting to save the circuit have been told different things by PRSC Councillors, almost to the extent that the closure is being run by one man with a grudge.
For those fighting to save the circuit, the auction is a bitter pill. But as always we fight on. We're not giving up Lakeside for a long term future at Queensland Raceway.
I know what the local racers must have felt when they opened the New Nurburgring.
Coming so soon after the loss of another great drivers circuit Amaroo Park, and the fervent push from AVESCO for more concrete tunnel street circuits, it's enough to disillusion....
one of the great Tasman era circuits is about to die.
In todays Courier Mail, listed in the auction pages is this Tuesday at 10am an auction will be held at Lakeside International Raceway. Nearly everything that can be moved and quite a bit of the stuff that can't, including sheds, toilet blocks, demountable media centre, spare armco, and huge list of memorabilia goes under the hammer. Lakeside was sold by tnder a few months ago and the new owners, the Pine River Shire Council seem on the surface to want to close the place down. Those fighting to save the circuit have been told different things by PRSC Councillors, almost to the extent that the closure is being run by one man with a grudge.
For those fighting to save the circuit, the auction is a bitter pill. But as always we fight on. We're not giving up Lakeside for a long term future at Queensland Raceway.
I know what the local racers must have felt when they opened the New Nurburgring.
Coming so soon after the loss of another great drivers circuit Amaroo Park, and the fervent push from AVESCO for more concrete tunnel street circuits, it's enough to disillusion....
#21
UAtkins
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Posted 24 February 2002 - 18:29
Well, I have been gone for a week and who joins the forum but Doug Nye and from what I can see the posting rate has climbed exponentially! What a great addition to the forum.
On the Tasman series, I was lucky enough to hear from Walter Willmott who worked for my Dad (Tommy Atkins) and who went on to work for Bruce (including some time at Coopers) from 1962 until his "retirement" in 1968. Wally was introduced to my Dad by Bruce, he had been working with Harry Pearce (in the Tasman series) and they got along very well so when Bruce told him of a job opportunity at High Efficiency Motors (HEM) working with Harry; he took the job and "per what was fast becoming the norm, all I had to do was find my own way from Sydney to Kingston on Thames, where Harry had organized accomodation in a pub for me. Lots of phone calls to NZ to sell what I could and to tell my mother, that what was only going to be a 3 week trip away from home, may be a little extended. After my first season in Europe with HEM, I worked for Bruce for the 62-63 Tasman Series. It was during this time I was asked by John Cooper to join his F1 team. Thanks again to Bruce who recommended me, and Tommy who put in some good words." On one of the photos of Tommy and Bruce he comments that they were "probably the two greatest influences in my life. Bruce because he took me under his wing, and Tommy, because on Bruce's word gave me a start sight unseen in a country half a world away from where I was born"
In this letter were some great photos, these included 4 or 5 of the 1963 Tasman Cooper built by Harry and Wally and "claimed by Coopers as one of their own". He has a photo of the "Official" media release of "Coopers" new Tasman car and at the bottom of the picture is the comment, "one of the nicest Coopers never built". The next photo is of Bruce "at work" in the car at the Sandown track. He lists the results for the team:
Australian GP, Perth - First
New Zealand GP, Auckland - Fastest Lap 90 mph
Lady Wigram Tropy, Christchurch - First
Teretonga International, Invercargill, First
Australian GP, Sydney, Third
South Pacific Championship, Tasmania, First and fastest lap 114.1 mph
Sandown International, Melbourne, First and equal fastest lap 101.9 mph
Included were photos (color) of the chassis being put together by Harry and Wally and the last photo is one of Harry "testing" at Auckland.
He also has the same photo that I do of Bruce in the "4 cyl, 1500 cc car that we later took to Monaco for Tony Maggs to drive, as Coopers did not get his V8 car ready in time". There are some other photos of the car at Goodwood testing. I know this was not a Tasman car but just thought I would mention it anyway.
My one problem is that I have no way to post these photos, if anyone is interested I can email and you can post for me?
Since I am a real novice at this, please excuse me if I get cars mixed up, I have received so much information from people and still haven't had time to really sort things out. Does anyone know which car (chassis #) this was, if there was more than one car, and where it is or if it's the one that was wrecked at Goodwood?
Ursula
On the Tasman series, I was lucky enough to hear from Walter Willmott who worked for my Dad (Tommy Atkins) and who went on to work for Bruce (including some time at Coopers) from 1962 until his "retirement" in 1968. Wally was introduced to my Dad by Bruce, he had been working with Harry Pearce (in the Tasman series) and they got along very well so when Bruce told him of a job opportunity at High Efficiency Motors (HEM) working with Harry; he took the job and "per what was fast becoming the norm, all I had to do was find my own way from Sydney to Kingston on Thames, where Harry had organized accomodation in a pub for me. Lots of phone calls to NZ to sell what I could and to tell my mother, that what was only going to be a 3 week trip away from home, may be a little extended. After my first season in Europe with HEM, I worked for Bruce for the 62-63 Tasman Series. It was during this time I was asked by John Cooper to join his F1 team. Thanks again to Bruce who recommended me, and Tommy who put in some good words." On one of the photos of Tommy and Bruce he comments that they were "probably the two greatest influences in my life. Bruce because he took me under his wing, and Tommy, because on Bruce's word gave me a start sight unseen in a country half a world away from where I was born"
In this letter were some great photos, these included 4 or 5 of the 1963 Tasman Cooper built by Harry and Wally and "claimed by Coopers as one of their own". He has a photo of the "Official" media release of "Coopers" new Tasman car and at the bottom of the picture is the comment, "one of the nicest Coopers never built". The next photo is of Bruce "at work" in the car at the Sandown track. He lists the results for the team:
Australian GP, Perth - First
New Zealand GP, Auckland - Fastest Lap 90 mph
Lady Wigram Tropy, Christchurch - First
Teretonga International, Invercargill, First
Australian GP, Sydney, Third
South Pacific Championship, Tasmania, First and fastest lap 114.1 mph
Sandown International, Melbourne, First and equal fastest lap 101.9 mph
Included were photos (color) of the chassis being put together by Harry and Wally and the last photo is one of Harry "testing" at Auckland.
He also has the same photo that I do of Bruce in the "4 cyl, 1500 cc car that we later took to Monaco for Tony Maggs to drive, as Coopers did not get his V8 car ready in time". There are some other photos of the car at Goodwood testing. I know this was not a Tasman car but just thought I would mention it anyway.
My one problem is that I have no way to post these photos, if anyone is interested I can email and you can post for me?
Since I am a real novice at this, please excuse me if I get cars mixed up, I have received so much information from people and still haven't had time to really sort things out. Does anyone know which car (chassis #) this was, if there was more than one car, and where it is or if it's the one that was wrecked at Goodwood?
Ursula
#22
Wolf
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- 7,883 posts
- Joined: June 00
Member
Posted 24 February 2002 - 18:55
Usula, I will be more than glad to be of assistance. 
I use my AtlasF1 email- wolf@email.atlasf1.com .
I use my AtlasF1 email- wolf@email.atlasf1.com .
#23
Wolf
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- 7,883 posts
- Joined: June 00
Member
Posted 24 February 2002 - 20:08
Here are Ursula's images...
# 1 - Car built for the 1963 Tasman Series - Unpainted and down at Goodwood for its first testing. This car was built by Harry with help from me but was still claimed by Coopers as one of their own. In body panels and suspension components it was similar to the V8 F1 cars.
#2 - The official media release of "Coopers" new Tasman car. Outside the Coopers factory in Surbiton the High Efficiency Motors team the boss to the boy. One of the nicest Coopers never built.
#3 - Bruce at work in his office at Sandown race track, Melbourne, Australia. In this 1962-63 Tasman season "the Team" was all conquering.
# 1 - Car built for the 1963 Tasman Series - Unpainted and down at Goodwood for its first testing. This car was built by Harry with help from me but was still claimed by Coopers as one of their own. In body panels and suspension components it was similar to the V8 F1 cars.
#2 - The official media release of "Coopers" new Tasman car. Outside the Coopers factory in Surbiton the High Efficiency Motors team the boss to the boy. One of the nicest Coopers never built.
#3 - Bruce at work in his office at Sandown race track, Melbourne, Australia. In this 1962-63 Tasman season "the Team" was all conquering.
#24
David McKinney
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- 14,156 posts
- Joined: November 00
Member
Posted 24 February 2002 - 20:56
The car in Wally’s pictures is the one-off T62 which Bruce raced in NZ and Australia at the beginning of 1963. As shown in Ray Bell’s earlier post, it was then raced in Australia by Lex Davison and the hapless Rocky Tresize. I believe it was rebuilt and later raced with a Holden engine by Ken Cox - Ray might be able to put us right on that. Tom Byrnes in the US has a car which he describes as “the ex-McLaren 1963 Tasman Cooper”, which might be the same thing.
Somewhere I have a photo of Wally sitting in the car at Pukekohe in 1963...
For the first Tasman Series, at the beginning of 1964, Bruce built two cars, given the Cooper T70 number and raced by him and Timmy Mayer. The second car, FL-2-64, was not rebuilt after Mayer’s accident but Bruce’s own mount, FL-1-64, was raced as a Bruce McLaren Motor Racing entry in the 1965 Tasman series by Phil Hill (and once by Bruce). It was then sold to Bill Patterson in Australia and driven for him by John McDonald. I believe it was one of several Coopers which ended up with Don O’Sullivan in Western Australia, but I haven’t heard anything of it since 1967. Ray?
The car at Goodwood last year was Bruce’s 1965 Tasman car, a T79 numbered FL-1-65 (though, interestingly, it now has a plate on the dashboard saying it’s F1-1-64!). It was sold after the Tasman series to John Love in South Africa, where it was nigh on unbeatable in local races, and was then an equally successful car in libre races in the UK in the hands of Tiny Littler and others around the 1968-71 period.
Somewhere I have a photo of Wally sitting in the car at Pukekohe in 1963...
For the first Tasman Series, at the beginning of 1964, Bruce built two cars, given the Cooper T70 number and raced by him and Timmy Mayer. The second car, FL-2-64, was not rebuilt after Mayer’s accident but Bruce’s own mount, FL-1-64, was raced as a Bruce McLaren Motor Racing entry in the 1965 Tasman series by Phil Hill (and once by Bruce). It was then sold to Bill Patterson in Australia and driven for him by John McDonald. I believe it was one of several Coopers which ended up with Don O’Sullivan in Western Australia, but I haven’t heard anything of it since 1967. Ray?
The car at Goodwood last year was Bruce’s 1965 Tasman car, a T79 numbered FL-1-65 (though, interestingly, it now has a plate on the dashboard saying it’s F1-1-64!). It was sold after the Tasman series to John Love in South Africa, where it was nigh on unbeatable in local races, and was then an equally successful car in libre races in the UK in the hands of Tiny Littler and others around the 1968-71 period.
#25
Doug Nye
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- 11,938 posts
- Joined: February 02
Member
Posted 24 February 2002 - 21:13
Ursula! What an opportunity. If you are in touch with Wally Willmott, please ask him what he recalls of 'The Jolly Green Giant' ex-Zerex first McLaren-Oldsmobile sports car, and MORE CRUCIALLY - what was its ultimate fate, so far as the team were concerned. Was it cut up, scrapped, skipped, sold, converted into a later model....or does he still have it on a trailer out the back???????
DCN
DCN
#26
Wolf
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- 7,883 posts
- Joined: June 00
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Posted 24 February 2002 - 21:16
Sorry about the delay in posting the rest of photos...
#4 - New car for NZ series being built by Harry and I in workshop.
#5 - Left rear corner of NZ car under construction - gearbox by Colloti.
#6 - Harry "testing" at Auckland. Note helmet and safety fence.
#4 - New car for NZ series being built by Harry and I in workshop.
#5 - Left rear corner of NZ car under construction - gearbox by Colloti.
#6 - Harry "testing" at Auckland. Note helmet and safety fence.
#27
Wolf
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- 7,883 posts
- Joined: June 00
Member
Posted 24 February 2002 - 21:20
And here's the last batch:
#7 - The 1500 cc 4 cyl F1 car at Goodwood testing
#8 - Tommy talking to Bruce (sitting) and Tony Maggs while Harry potters.
#9 - Harry, myself, and Bruce. Still on the grid but obviously closer to the start time as we all have our serious faces on.
#7 - The 1500 cc 4 cyl F1 car at Goodwood testing
#8 - Tommy talking to Bruce (sitting) and Tony Maggs while Harry potters.
#9 - Harry, myself, and Bruce. Still on the grid but obviously closer to the start time as we all have our serious faces on.
#28
cooper997
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- 4,198 posts
- Joined: December 08
Member
Posted 13 July 2016 - 07:54
I wasn't sure where to put this youtube link of some great January 1965 New Zealand Grand Prix action in very nice colour. So it's here for your enjoyment. Hill - G & P, Clark, McLaren, Gardner, Davison, Palmer et al...
Stephen
#29
Ray Bell
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- 82,286 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 13 July 2016 - 13:39
Very nice clip, Stephen...
That 'poster' finds a lot of good stuff, but what I wonder is if the source of this one has Longford as well?
That 'poster' finds a lot of good stuff, but what I wonder is if the source of this one has Longford as well?
#30
cooper997
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- 4,198 posts
- Joined: December 08
Member
Posted 14 July 2016 - 05:50
It is indeed, Ray.
I haven't stumbled upon any 1965 Longford footage. But I haven't mastered the best method to search youtube either.
Stephen,
