199 replies to this topic

[Roger Clark]

I thought that the 1905 Renault handled very well but suffered from overheating and failed to qualify for the Gordon Bennett.  That doesn't explain why they dropped the chassis design in 1906 though!

 

Edit: I didn't see Tim's post!

Edited by Roger Clark, 29 September 2020 - 15:18.

[speedman13]

This is the best thread for ages.

[robert dick]

The idea for the underslung frame of the 1905 Bennett Renault certainly came from Barney Oldfield's 1904 Peerless "Green Dragon" and from the Stabilia which was exhibited in December 1904 at the Paris Salon. The Stabilia:




= = = =

The 1905 Bennett Renault (from the magazine La Vie Automobile, Paris/1905):








= = = =

The 1905 Bennett and the 1906 Grand Prix Renaults:





Weight of the three Renaults at the 1905 French Bennett elimination in the Auvergne was 1002 and 2 x 1007 kg (1007 was the maximum = 1000 kg + 7 kg for the magneto).
It is obvious that on the 1905 car a lot of additional metal had to be used in fixing engine, gearbox, etc... to a frame placed below crankshaft level. This metal and weight was saved in 1906. That's why the frame was conventional in 1906.
In the Bennett race through the Auvergne there were several neutralized sections per lap so that in principle the race was a succession of special stages. The engines, tyres, drivers and mechanics had a lot of time to recover.
In the 1906 Grand Prix on the Circuit de la Sarthe there were no neutralized sections. It was a non-stop race including much more stress for overheated tyres.
The weight saved by using a conventional frame was invested in detachable rims.   
 

[Roger Clark]

Thank you, Robert (again). It is interesting that the 1906 Renault has wire wheels. I believe they tested with wires before the removable rims became available. 

[Sterzo]

Weight of the three Renaults at the 1905 French Bennett elimination in the Auvergne was 1002 and 2 x 1007 kg (1007 was the maximum = 1000 kg + 7 kg for the magneto).
It is obvious that on the 1905 car a lot of additional metal had to be used in fixing engine, gearbox, etc... to a frame placed below crankshaft level. This metal and weight was saved in 1906. That's why the frame was conventional in 1906.
 

I have been wondering since the nineteen-fifties why anyone would not use an underslung frame for a racing car, and now you have explained. Thank you very much.

 

There's also the question of the relationship between the centre of gravity and the roll centre. On the underslung they would be much closer; what effect that would have on the handling on long travel suspension I don't know, but it might have given less feedback.

[robert dick]

June 1907.
Renault quarters at Bracquemont (a few kilometres north of Dieppe) during practice for the French Grand Prix at Dieppe:
Richet, Edmond and Szisz.
(photos Bibliothèque Nationale/Paris, collection Rol)





= = = =

2 July 1907.
Szisz and mechanic Dimitri (Sergey "Georges" Dimitrievitch) near Eu:




 

[ensign14]

Um, I may be speaking out of turn, or it might be heightened awareness and confirmation bias, plus recent stories in football, but...

 

...is Edmond mixed race?  He seems to have the right facial features and hair...

[ensign14]

Just borrowing a pic from another thread...

 

 

 

...hmmmmm.

[68targa]

2 July 1907.
Szisz and mechanic Dimitri (Sergey "Georges" Dimitrievitch) near Eu:
 

 

What a fabulous photograph this is. It conveys all that I imagined these early races to be. All the drama and excitement and the curious deflection of the wheels - due to the use of a horizontal focal-plane shutter.

[robert dick]

The 1908 Grand Prix at Dieppe was the last big race for Théry and for Brasier.
Théry was fourth when his Brasier went out on the last lap with a cracked cylinder.
Photos dated 6 July 1908, the day before the Grand Prix.
(Bibliothèque Nationale/Paris, collection Rol)







= = = =

On the same 6 July 1908, Georges Boillot drove a Lion-Peugeot in the preliminary race at Dieppe, the Grand Prix des Voiturettes.




= =
Nearly three months later, by the end of September 1908, Boillot started in the Coupe des Voiturettes at Compiègne, this time sans moustache.
The complete Lion-Peugeot team started at Compiègne sans moustache, probably a test to improve the air flow...


 

[a_tifoosi]

What a fantastic topic, Robert  .

 

For the last few months Gallica has been continuously uploading new pictures from the Rol collection. Luckily, the most recent updates —from October 2, October 28 and November 3— contain hundreds of motor racing-related pictures from the early XX century: Grand Prix de l'ACF 1906 & 1907, Peking-Paris 1907, Coupe des Voiturettes 1906, 1907 & 1908, Targa 1907, Grand Prix des Voiturettes 1908, etc.

 

You simply need to look for "Agence Rol" and sort by data of online availability: Gallica.

[robert dick]

Gordon Bennett Cup, "Taunus-Strecke" near Frankfurt/Bad Homburg, 17 June 1904.
Théry, mechanic Muller and the winning Richard-Brasier
(photos Bibliothèque Nationale/Paris, collection Rol):








= = = =
The start-and-finish line at Saalburg, "Haupttribüne mit Kaiserloge":




= = = =
Fritz Opel and his Opel-Darracq:




= = = =
Jenatzy and his Mercedes finished second:


 

[robert dick]

Back from the victory in the 1904 Bennett Cup, Théry in the Richard-Brasier turned a few laps at the Vélodrome de Vincennes, Paris, June 1904 (photos Rol collection, Bibliothèque Nationale/Paris):








= = = =
A few months later, back from a flying kilometre record at Ostende, Paul Baras in the Darracq turned some laps at the original Vélodrome d'Hiver, in the former Salle des Machines near the Eiffel Tower, December 1904:


 

[Doug Nye]

Gorgeous photography.

 

DCN

[robert dick]

Photos from the Bibliothèque Nationale/Paris/collection Rol:

Théry, Brasier, French Bennett elimination, Circuit de l'Auvergne, June 1905



Théry, Brasier, Bennett main race, Auvergne, July 1905



Baras, Brasier, Circuit des Ardennes, August 1906



Bablot, Brasier, meeting de Provence, September 1908



Gustave Rives (= ACF show manager) and Henri Brasier in company of his wife,
Paris, Grand Palais, December 1906, a few days before the opening of the Salon



Brasier by Mich (= Michel Liébeaux's nom de plume)

 

[robert dick]

Albert and Adolphe Clément, Circuit des Ardennes, July 1904

 

 

Henry Farman, Panhard, Circuit des Ardennes, July 1904

 

 

Pierre de Caters and Lucien Hautvast, GP de l'ACF, Dieppe, July 1907

 

 

Alfred Villemain and his wife, Clément-Bayard, GP de l'ACF, Le Mans, June 1906

 

 

Matteo Ceirano, Itala, Coppa Florio, Brescia, September 1905

 

 

Wyndham Sorel, Lorraine-Dietrich, Circuit des Ardennes, August 1906

 

 

Frank Newton, six-cylinder Napier, Gaillon, October 1907

 

 

Algernon Lee Guinness, Minerva, 8-liter class Circuit des Ardennes, July 1907

 

Edited by robert dick, 27 September 2021 - 15:47.

[68targa]

 

 

Wyndham Sorel, Lorraine-Dietrich, Circuit des Ardennes, August 1906

 

 

 

 

Such confidence.  Terry Thomas scheming cad comes to mind !  

 

These are splendid photos, thank you Robert for taking the trouble to post them.

 

 

 

[cpbell]

 

 

 

Such confidence.  Terry Thomas scheming cad comes to mind !  

 

These are splendid photos, thank you Robert for taking the trouble to post them.

 

 

 

 

He's exactly how I would imagine someone called "Wyndham" would present himself.

[Odseybod]

A splendid selection of moustaches.

[Tim Murray]

Wonderful stuff. Thank you Robert.

[Michael Ferner]

Pierre de Caters and Lucien Hautvast, GP de l'ACF, Dieppe, July 1907

 

 

Must've been a cold summer in Northern France!

[malomay]

 

 

 

Such confidence.  Terry Thomas scheming cad comes to mind !  

 

These are splendid photos, thank you Robert for taking the trouble to post them.

 

 

 

 

Or Jack Lemmon (Professor Fate) from The Great Race !

[Alan Lewis]

"There's some Flashman DNA there", was my first thought on seeing Lt-Col W.L. Sorel DSO - I assume he is the same person Google throws up the 1934 Grace's Guide link for:



"SOREL, Lt.-Col. Wyndham Lucas, D.S.O., Gen. Man., Ettore Bugatti Automobiles, London. B. 1880, St. Helier, Jersey, C.I. Ed: Paris. Car.: connected with motor trade since 1902; firms associated with Lorraine-Dietrich, Jarrott & Letts, Humber, Austin, Bugatti; prewar drove in number of international races and trials, established several long distance records; war service 1914-19, in France, Egypt, Macedonia and Turkey; mentioned in despatches; decorations D.S.O., Servian Order White Eagle, French Croix de Guerre, Greek-Military Merit. Md. Int.: motoring, golf."



And yes, these are excellent photographs. I could look at stuff like this for hours.

Edited by Alan Lewis, 28 September 2021 - 09:00.

[68targa]

It would appear to be the same Wyndham Lucas Sorel who lived a very active and eventful life.  He finished 7th out of 18 starters in the 1906 Circuit of Ardennes some 26 mins behind the winner Duray (also De Dietrich who finished in a time of 5 hrs 38.39)     His other team-mates at De Dietrich were Rougier and Gabriel so he was in very good company.  He died in 1956 aged 76.

[robert dick]

Weather ACF, Dieppe, July 1907:
The Caters/Hautvast photo was taken on Monday, 1 July 1907 during the pesage/weight control/scrutineering. Weather was cold and cloudy, temperature much below normal, below 10 oC in the early morning, later up to a maximum of 15.

= = = =

Sorel:
Sorel appeared as "Wyndham L. Sorel" in October 1903 as driver of an "Omnibus de Dietrich" in the "Concours de Fiacres et de Voitures de Livraison", a four-day reliability event organized by the ACF.

 

 

In April 1907:

 

[Vitesse2]

"There's some Flashman DNA there", was my first thought on seeing Lt-Col W.L. Sorel DSO - I assume he is the same person Google throws up the 1934 Grace's Guide link for:



"SOREL, Lt.-Col. Wyndham Lucas, D.S.O., Gen. Man., Ettore Bugatti Automobiles, London. B. 1880, St. Helier, Jersey, C.I. Ed: Paris. Car.: connected with motor trade since 1902; firms associated with Lorraine-Dietrich, Jarrott & Letts, Humber, Austin, Bugatti; prewar drove in number of international races and trials, established several long distance records; war service 1914-19, in France, Egypt, Macedonia and Turkey; mentioned in despatches; decorations D.S.O., Servian Order White Eagle, French Croix de Guerre, Greek-Military Merit. Md. Int.: motoring, golf."

He seems to have somewhat altered his moustache during his military service:

 

 

https://www.theislan...index.php/Sorel

 

Exact date of birth April 23rd 1880. He died in an Eastbourne nursing home on May 31st 1956 - on the 1939 Register he was apparently resident in an Eastbourne hotel and described as 'General manager, Motor [illegible]'. Probably just there for the night though, as electoral rolls consistently place him in London SW1 until 1950, although probate records do also show his home address at the time of his death as in Eastbourne.

[mikeC]

I have a number of postcards of the 1905 Gordon Bennett, showing sections of the circuit; they can't compete with the quality of those glass plates, but they may be of interest to show the nature of the course:

[mikeC]

 

 

 

[mikeC]

 

 

 

[mikeC]

 

 

 

[mikeC]

 

 

 

[Sterzo]

A thousand thanks, mikeC. I want to go there right now, and spectate.

[mikeC]

More postcards showing cars from the period:

 

 

Wagner & Guyot on their 85cv Darracq, 1904 Circuit d'Auvergne

 

 

 

Wagner's 1905 Darracq

 

 

 

Braunn's Mercedes, 1905 Gordon Bennett

 

 

 

Thery's 1905 Brasier

 

 

 

Hemery's 1908 GP Benz

 

 

 

Rougier's 1908 GP Lorraine

 

 

 

Heath's Panhard Levassor (undated)

 

 

 

and an incident during the 1908 Grand Prix; Harrison's Weigel passing the stricken Stanley of Strang

[robert dick]

Could be useful in combination with the Auvergne photos - map of the 1905 Bennett course/Circuit d'Auvergne:
https://gallica.bnf..../btv1b530604246

https://gallica.bnf....4246/f1.highres

or
https://gallica.bnf..../btv1b530606724

https://gallica.bnf....6724/f1.highres




= = = =

Addition concerning Sorel (photo collection Rol):

Sorel (centre) after winning the Coupe des Pyrénées in/on a De Dietrich, Toulouse, August 1905 (from left to right):

Capitaine Henri-François Genty (commandant de la première compagnie d'ouvriers d'artillerie; well-known under his nom de course "de La Touloubre"),
Charles Tampier (chronométreur officiel de l'ACF),
Capitaine Léonce-Aimé Ferrus (membre de la Commission Militaire des Automobiles; membre de la Commission Technique de l'ACF),
Wyndham Sorel ("Sorel is of English nationality and has for a long time been a resident of India"),
Gopal Sharan Singh, Maharajah of Tekari (riding mechanic for Sorel in/on the winning De Dietrich),
René Arnoux (vice-président de la Commission Technique de l'ACF),
and Georges Lumet (ingénieur du Laboratoire de l'ACF; collaborateur à Omnia; secrétaire de la rédaction du Bulletin Officiel de la Commission Technique de l'ACF).


 

[Michael Ferner]

An early appearance for René Arnoux...

 

 

Robert, can you confirm, is Wyndham Sorel the same man who drove an Isotta-Fraschini on a couple of occasions in 1907? I think Paul Sheldon (who was a bit hit-and-miss on first names for the early years) had him down as "Marc Sorel".

[Vitesse2]

An early appearance for René Arnoux...

 

 

Robert, can you confirm, is Wyndham Sorel the same man who drove an Isotta-Fraschini on a couple of occasions in 1907? I think Paul Sheldon (who was a bit hit-and-miss on first names for the early years) had him down as "Marc Sorel".

If you put 2E3NPXE into the search at alamy.com the moustache on the driver looks very familiar, Michael. French caption, a bit grainy, possibly copied from a magazine?

 

Ditto image 2E3NPX5.

[Michael Ferner]

I doubt it's from a magazine - a bit of cheap internet research will lead you to dozens of Paul Sheldon (or Phil Harms, for that matter) copycat data bases, and voilá! - "Marc Sorel" it is. "But I checked four different sites, that's real research, innit?"

[robert dick]

The René Arnoux of the heroic age was born on 1 September 1858 in Montceau-les-Mines. As head of the ACF's technical board he would certainly have taken great delight in scrutineering the mid-engined single-seater of his namesake, but as far as I know he was not related to the René Arnoux of the 1,5-litre turbo age.

Confirmation:
Wyndham Sorel drove a few times for Isotta in 1907 (marketing arrangement between Lorraine-Dietrich and Isotta-Fraschini).
One of Sorel's addresses in 1907 was Paris, Neuilly, 12 Avenue de Neuilly, not far away from the Lorraine-Dietrich offices.
 

A "Marc Sorel" did not appear in the contemporary press.

[robert dick]

Sorel with the Maharajah as riding mechanic after winning the Coupe des Pyrénées, August 1905:

 

 

Sorel after driving from Paris to Madrid in 28 hours, May 1907:

 

 

In 1907, on Sicily, Sorel drove Isotta no. 7C and finished 9th
(although the magazine La France Automobile had "Sorel, 9è, sur Lorraine-Dietrich").
A picturesque Isotta team, Targa Florio, April 1907 (photo collection Rol):

 

[cpbell]

 

 

In 1907, on Sicily, Sorel drove Isotta no. 7C and finished 9th
(although the magazine La France Automobile had "Sorel, 9è, sur Lorraine-Dietrich").
A picturesque Isotta team, Targa Florio, April 1907 (photo collection Rol):

 

Perhaps F1 could make modern mechanics' lives more interesting by inviting herds of ruminants to circulate during practice at GPs.  It is the Paddock, after all.

Edited by cpbell, 05 October 2021 - 10:47.

[Alan Lewis]

Perhaps F1 could make modern mechanics' lives more interesting by inviting herds of ruminants to circulate during practice at GPs. It is the Paddock, after all.

We could have endless arguments in Racing Comments about which one was the GOAT.





I thenk yew.

[cpbell]

We could have endless arguments in Racing Comments about which one was the GOAT.





I thenk yew.

He'll be here all week.

[robert dick]

Giovan Battista "G. B." Raggio, Itala, Coppa Florio, Brescia, September 1905 (photos collections Rol/Bibliothèque Nationale/Paris)

 

 

Otto Salzer, Mercedes, GP de l'ACF, Dieppe, July 1907

 

 

Walter Clifford Earp, Napier, Gaillon, October 1905

 

 

Cecil Edge, Napier, Gaillon, October 1906

 

 

Philippe Barriaux with Robert Laly as riding mechanic in the 15-litre Vulpès, a few days before the GP de l'ACF, June 1906.
The photo was taken at the Quai de Clichy, Clichy, Paris. The shops of the Société des Automobiles Vulpès were just a block away, Boulevard National. Feature of the Grand Prix Vulpès was the underslung "Stabilia" frame. The 15-litre Vulpès was entered in the Grand Prix. However, it was overweight, about 200 kg above the 1000-kg limit, so that it was not sent to Le Mans for the scrutineering. Later in 1906, the 15-litre was entered at Dourdan and Gaillon but again did not appear.

 

 

Charles Deplus, Pipe, 8-litre class Circuit des Ardennes, July 1907

 

[wolf sun]

I keep repeating myself, but…what absolutely incredible and wonderful photographs.

 

Thank you.

[cpbell]

Cecil Edge:

 

https://www.gracesgu...thur_Cecil_Edge

[mikeC]

I am dismayed to see that the two British drivers are not wearing ties; they would be banished from the paddock at the Goodwood Revival 

[Vitesse2]

I am dismayed to see that the two British drivers are not wearing ties; they would be banished from the paddock at the Goodwood Revival 

Edge is definitely wearing a scarf or muffler, so may have a tie underneath. I think Earp may also be wearing a thin scarf or neckerchief of some sort - maybe even a custom designed garment to keep out dust? - whatever it is, it's too high on the neck for any sort of collarless shirt and shows no sign of buttons or other fastenings at the front.

[robert dick]

Driver of the year in 1899:




 

[robert dick]

Photos (from the Bibliothèque Nationale/Paris) taken by Zulimo Chiesi in the 1890s:
https://gallica.bnf....14?mode=desktop
 

 

Louis Baudry de Saunier in 1893; founder of the magazine Omnia in 1906

 

 

 

In 1893 René de Knyff was director of the Revue des Sports

 

 

 

Fernand Charron

 

 

 

Henry Fournier in 1898 on a De Dion tricycle

 

 

 

Gaby = nom de course of Pierre Huguet. In 1906 Huguet drove a Brasier in the GP de l'ACF at Le Mans under his second nom de course, Pierry.

 

 

 

Vélodrome de la Seine, 11 and 12 November 1893,
six-hour match race between Fournier and Gaby on the tandem and Buffalo Bill who was allowed six  horses and used the narrow grass track within the vélodrome

 

[Gary C]

The photographs in this thread are nothing short of brilliant, thanks all for posting them.