44 replies to this topic

[Redliner]

Well, time to set the cat amongst the pigeons here. In a recent "what if" thread I came across the view that Jochen Rindt should not have been awarded the 1970 World Title by the simple exponent of being dead at the time. Does anyone else hold with this view?

I most certainly do not, just because a driver is deceased doesn't mean his points total is wiped in my view. Icxx, worthy driver that he was, simply did not beat Rindt in terms of points and is therefor, by the very basic nature of the sport, not World Champion. How anyone can ever feel otherwise in my view is just insanity, or mindless bigotry, a needless destruction of a man's acheivements because he paid the ultimate price.

[dmj]

I agree with your oppinion.

[AndreasF1]

Rindt earned the points when he was alive so he should be awarded the WDC. To suggest otherwise is mathematicly and moraly wrong.

AndreasF1

[Don Capps]

I will have to check my Yellow Book, but there were those -- including the CSI it is said -- that openly wondered if there could be a posthumous champion, there being no "provision" for one.... Needless to say, for once sanity and common sense prevailed, not very commonplace thing during the 1970 season.

As someone who really liked Jochen Rindt, I was relieved when -- depsite my feelings of ambivalence to outright disregard of championhships -- Rindt became the champion. It was something of a situation for Ickx to be placed in, but you have to play the hand you're dealt....

[McRonalds]

Yea, I made a statement pointing in that direction in the thread about drivers who deserved the championship. I have no solution to offer (for I never heard of a similar case) - and, no doubt, Rindt deserved his championship in 1970 - and I do not feel that Jacky Ickx should instead become champion, but:

I feel very, very unfortunate about the fact declaring a dead man world champion. And I really think nobody will feel delighted about such a championship.

Anybody who knows a similar case - maybe in another category of sports?

[Redliner]

Well there has been a Pothumous World Champion, but has their ever been a Posthumous Race winner? When a driver was so far ahead at the time of his fatal accident the race was stopped with him leading to all intents of purposes?

[dmj]

Vittorio Brambilla could become one but thankfully he didn't crashed so hard in Zeltweg...

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by Redliner
Well there has been a Pothumous World Champion, but has their ever been a Posthumous Race winner? When a driver was so far ahead at the time of his fatal accident the race was stopped with him leading to all intents of purposes?

Sadly, there has, although not in Grand Prix racing. Derek's younger Brother, Paul Warwick posthumously won a British F3000 event at Oulton Park after the race was red-flagged due to his fatal accident. Fot the details see this thread!

[Martyj]

Can't remember the name of the guy, but about ten years ago a regular competitor in the Indy 500 who was also a major star in the USAC sprint division was killed on the last turn of the last lap of a sprint race. The Red flag ended the race, and the driver was awarded the victory because he was the leader of the last completed green flag lap.

Oh, wait, I just remembered his name. Rich Vogler.

About Rindt: would it have been any different if he had simply quit racing prior to Monza? No -- his point total was what it was. It was up to someone else to amass more points. As far as the championship scoring is concerned, there were no more points for Rindt to earn because he was a non-starter. Doesn't matter if he's dead, injured, retired, or a non-qualifier.

[fines]

Sprint Car star Rich Vogler was not the only posthumous race winner, Ray Keech also "won" the race he died in when it was redflagged - except that AAA wouldn't have it and declared someone else the winner. Danny Caruthers, the kid brother of Jimmy, also won the 1971 USAC National Midget Championship posthumously, as did Ted Horn the 1948 AAA National Championship.

[Buford]

I was at Watkins Glen in 1970, the first race after Rindt's death. I recall reading in the newspapers there at the time there had been a threat of a driver strike if Rindt's point total was not allowed to stand.

[David McKinney]

There was a huge debate about it at the time. My bes' fren' was one of those who believed a dead man can't be champion - I took the view that the champion is the guy who earns the most points during the season. Which of course is what was officially decided. I still can't see that the CSI could fairly have done anything else.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
Sprint Car star Rich Vogler was not the only posthumous race winner, Ray Keech also "won" the race he died in when it was redflagged - except that AAA wouldn't have it and declared someone else the winner. Danny Caruthers, the kid brother of Jimmy, also won the 1971 USAC National Midget Championship posthumously, as did Ted Horn the 1948 AAA National Championship.

I'm not so sure Vogler's win didn't occur with 2 laps left. Nevertheless, the race being stopped it reverted back to the last completed lap and Vogler had a huge lead. This happened at Salem, Indiana in 1990. IMO, the race should never have continued as there was a gaping hole in the fence from an earlier incident (though this had nothing to do with Vogler's crash, which came on the opposite side of the track)...but it was being televised and they wanted to complete the program.

Ironically, Jimmy Caruthers also was a posthumous USAC Champion, winning the 1975 Silver Crown title, but having succumbed to cancer before the awards were presented.

Though the word is overused and misused...this time "ironic" truly fits.

On the topic at hand, I concur completely that Rindt should have been champion.


Jim Thurman

[Ray Bell]

Buford, Jim...

Were you also at Indy the day Rindt got into the territory of the gods?

When he qualified the Brabham? I understand that performance alone merited a championship...

[fines]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
When he qualified the Brabham? I understand that performance alone merited a championship...

The sameself car was driven to fifth by Peter Revson the following year, so maybe he should be the rightful champion, eh?;)

[MaTT2799]

Of course Rindt deserved to be champion. In a funny way, the fact that his points total was enough despite him doing 3 less races than Ickx makes his title even more deserved, he was damn awesome in the Lotus 72 and his performance at Monaco in the older car merited a title on its own.

[Buford]

Actually from what I saw and the general consensus was then, at Indy Rindt was pretty bad there. He hated the place, was most likely scared of it (meaning he didn't think it was worth the risk) and he put in a sub par if not downright putrid performance in a decent car.

[Ray Bell]

Was it Revson of whom I was thinking then?

A last-minute qualifying run, maybe on a damp track?

Something sticks in the back of the mind about it all... and the mental picture is oversteer!

[Buford]

I raced quarter midgets with Rich Vogler. He was the only one from our group who made it to Indy. He also had a Mini. A Worsely (or however it it spelled) Hornet he imported from Australia he found when he was over there racing Sprint Cars. I easily beat him when we were kids but I was about 3 years older so that made a big difference. As adults. we never raced on the same day in the same cars. I didn't like him from a driver standpoint, though had no opinion on a personal basis. He was a very dirty driver. But the night he died, and I knew it immediately when I saw the reaction of the first guy on the scene, I admit I had a few tears and that rarely happens anymore.

[Ray Bell]

A Wolseley Hornet from Australia?

If that's the name of the mini-based Wolseley, I've only ever seen one such car in this whole country, he must have snared the second one before anyone knew it was here!

Maybe he got it from New Zealand?

[Vitesse2]

Yes Ray, that is the up-market Mini. And there was also the Riley Elf, which was supposed to be slightly more "sporty". IIRC they had such sophistications as wind-up windows and real doorhandles on the inside!

[Ray Bell]

Don't forget that dicky little light in the top of the grille!

Never knew about the doorhandles... but that's the problem with living in Australia, we had those wind-up windows etc on the basic Mini from about 1963... and that was why those racing the things went for 'pommie' models to hot up... they were lighter.

[Buford]

No I was drving down Georgetown Road to the south near the track and it was on Saturday before the race on Sunday. That is also driver's meeting and parade day. At 35th street just north of the track I saw this Mini and it was one like I had only seen in pictures. The one with the little Rolls Royce like front end and little trunk and it pulled into a shopping area. I made an illegal U turn and chased after that. It stopped in front of a laundry and the guy got out and pulled out a couple drivers suits he was taking in. I saw it was Rich Volger.

I called out to him and he came over to the van. I said, "Rich Vogler in a Wolseley Hornet!!! I've never even seen one of the things." This was also long after you never hardly ever saw a Mini on the streets in the USA because they had all rusted out and you certainly never saw one in a God forsaken place like Indiana. He said he had seen it when he was in Australia when he was racing over there and bought it and imported it. He said he had had a hassle getting it licensed because nobody had such a car on their books to even get it licensed and insured. I told him who I was and he remembered me and we chatted for a short time about the quarter midget days. Then he begged off because he had to get to the driver's meeting.

So that is what he told me. Perhaps the guy he bought it from had imported it on his own from England, if they were never sold there. But that is where Rich told me he got it. In fact I thought about calling up his widow and asking to buy the car, after his death, but I was out in California then, and really did not have the money, so I don't know what ever happened to it. His widow probably didn't know it was cool and gave it away for cheap, or junked it. This conversation happened either the same year he died, or maybe the previous year.

The only other thing I can think was maybe my memory has failed and it was a Riley Elf and not the Wolseley Hornet. Did they sell those there?

[Ray Bell]

In the Mini range we had assembled locally:

Morris 850 (848cc)
Morris Cooper (997cc)
Morris Mini Deluxe (948cc)
Morris Minivan (948cc and later 1098cc?)
Morris Cooper S (1275cc)

...and then a plethora of various later Mini Clubman things... but always Morris-badged. No Rileys, Wolseleys or even Austins... but New Zealand had them all and there were private imports.

To get back on track, were you there when Revson qualified?

[Buford]

Probably but I do not recall the Revson run you are talking about. But sometimes I was in the infield with the bimbos where it was important to be so that could be why.

Maybe the guy Rich got the car from brought it in from New Zealand and that's how it got into Australia. But the American guys go over there in our winter and race Sprint Cars every year so I am sure it was Australia where he was and that is what he told me.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Buford
Probably but I do not recall the Revson run you are talking about. But sometimes I was in the infield with the bimbos where it was important to be so that could be why....

Yeah... at that age your hormones would have been giving you a fair bit of direction, I'd imagine...

A lot of the visiting speedway contingent also went to Kiwiland while they were here, by the way. Someone* might know if Rich Vogler did...

[Gary Davies]

Jenks' view, as ever, was au point. This from Continental Notes of October 1970.

"There are so many occasions when I get sick and tired of the Drivers' World Championship, and a lot of other Championships as well, but at Monza I had to be short with a lot of people. They were not saddened by the death of Jochen Rindt but were worried about whether the rules allowed a dead man to be World Champion. I get equally short with people who ask he who is going to be World Champion immediately after the first Grand Prix has been run, and my answer to them is that I'll tell them who I think ought to be World Champion at the end of the season, after I have analysed all the races, and it probably won't be the one with the most FIA points ..."

"The fact that Rindt was killed while he had an almost unassailable lead in the points race for the title of World Champion, put so many people in a flutter that it was sickening ...'

To win a Championship by scoring more points than the next man is a bit like winning the football pools. To win all the races is much more impressive. So, dead or alive, Champion or Posthumous, let's not forget that in 1970 Jochen Rindt had a record that read 1st Monaco GP, 1st Dutch GP, 1st French GP, 1st British GP, 1st. German GP. A worthy Grand Prix driver, if not among the great artists of the sport of motor racing."

I must say I've long held the view that the points system is an unsatisfactory way of deciding the World Champion (since October 19 1958, in fact), but perhaps it's the best that is realistically available.

It brings to mind something Churchill once said about democracy: "Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."


Vanwall.

[badri]

Sorry for asking what might be a stupid question.
If there wasn't anything explicit in the rules, saying that there could not be a posthumous
champion, why did anybody need to go into this issue, anyway?

Thanks.

[Buford]

Originally posted by badri
Sorry for asking what might be a stupid question.
If there wasn't anything explicit in the rules, saying that there could not be a posthumous
champion, why did anybody need to go into this issue, anyway?

Thanks.

Business reasons. So they would have a real live (temporarily at least) World Champion to promote at races the following year. Ticket sales were more important in the years before TV.

[stevew]

I too, think it is correct that Rindt be declared 1970 World Champion. I remember reading that Jacky Ickx really didn't want to win the title that way.

As far as provisions in the FIA rules go, there was a three-way tie for fastest qualifying lap at Jerez 1997, but the driver who sets the time first starts first etc, so the rules have that scenario covered.

But what about an absolute dead-heat at the finish of the race? What then?

And as far as the Championship goes, what if two drivers tie for first place in points, wins and placings at the end of the season? Does the FIA declare co-Champions? Should pole positions, grid positions and fastest laps be considered? I've heard that the FIA reserves the right to decide who will be World Champion, but is there anything in the rules defining how this is done?

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by Buford
Actually from what I saw and the general consensus was then, at Indy Rindt was pretty bad there. He hated the place, was most likely scared of it (meaning he didn't think it was worth the risk) and he put in a sub par if not downright putrid performance in a decent car.

I have to question your memory on this one. Jochen actually performed rather superbly at Indy. It is a fact though that he made few friends among Indy loyalists with some of his comments. Jochen was generally disinclined to be politically correct - and a rookie driver at Indy was expected to show proper reverence. Jochen failed to say the right things and many never forgave him.

He had a huge wreck in 1967 - his first year there - when his throttle jammed open. It was one of the biggest wrecks ever seen up to that time and when he casually offered the ambulance driver a cigarette and lit one up for himself (plus displaying a virtually normal pulse rate)- it caused mixed reactions. He did ultimately qualify in someone's back up car but had engine failure a little more than half way through.

Ray Bell is very correct in remembering that Jochen performed a virtual miracle in qualifying the following year. He put the Brabham Repco in the field (way up) in the waning moments of the final day of qualifying with a mist and light drizzle on the track. It was then or never and Jochen pulled it off big time. Most people remember this as one of the singular great feats in Indy qualifying history.

Buford - I think you are confusing Jochen's performance with that of another top GP driver of that era who did not do well - and openly admitted to being spooked by the place.

[stevew]

I don't remember which year it was, but Rindt was sitting on the pit wall at Indy and Chris Economaki tried to interview him and asked if he was going to come back next year.

All Rindt said was "No".

End of interview...

[Buford]

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger



Buford - I think you are confusing Jochen's performance with that of another top GP driver of that era who did not do well - and openly admitted to being spooked by the place.

Maybe you are right. I am thinking of a composit of two. I did not look it up. I don't recall that qualifying run and was thinking Rindt did not even make the race. I stand corrected. I don't remember now who I am confusing him with.

[David McKinney]

Getting back to Roch Vogler -
I'm sure he raced in NZ

[stevew]

Originally posted by Buford


Maybe you are right. I am thinking of a composit of two. I did not look it up. I don't recall that qualifying run and was thinking Rindt did not even make the race. I stand corrected. I don't remember now who I am confusing him with.

I remember that Chris Amon was spooked by the walls at Indy.

[dmj]

Jack Brabham ranks Rindt as second best driver against whom he raced, better than Clark. (He states Moss as the best one.)

[Buford]

Originally posted by stevew


I remember that Chris Amon was spooked by the walls at Indy.

Richie Ginther didn't do well. Rodriguez got hurt. Spence got killed. Bandini had a ride but got killed that month. Everybody else from F1 qualified that I can remember. Maybe it was Amon I was thinking of. I must be getting old. I used to know this stuff without looking it up.

[Rediscoveryx]

Frank Williams rates Rindt as number one of all time

[LittleChris]

Originally posted by Buford


Maybe it was Amon I was thinking of. I must be getting old. I used to know this stuff without looking it up.

I think you're right. Maybe Keir can confirm ?

[jmp85]

"the" thread does mention this incident. amon tested the mclaren indy car, but was spooked by the place. bruce mclaren found this absurd and commented: "paint trees on the wall and you'll see amon beat the field!" (as chris was known to be dare-devil-ish on the great road courses....)

cheers, jmp85

[Buford]

I think Amon also tried the Botony 500 Wallis turbine which were terrible cars and they were withdrawn.

[MPea3]

Originally posted by McRonalds
Yea, I made a statement pointing in that direction in the thread about drivers who deserved the championship. I have no solution to offer (for I never heard of a similar case) - and, no doubt, Rindt deserved his championship in 1970 - and I do not feel that Jacky Ickx should instead become champion, but:

I feel very, very unfortunate about the fact declaring a dead man world champion. And I really think nobody will feel delighted about such a championship.

Anybody who knows a similar case - maybe in another category of sports?

wasn't jimmy murphy national driving champ in 1924 although he had died at syracuse, NY, before the season ended?

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by MPea3


wasn't jimmy murphy national driving champ in 1924 although he had died at syracuse, NY, before the season ended?

Yes, he was.

Jimmy and Jochen are champions in my book as they did what was required to win the championship.

[ensign14]

Ted Horn had already clinched the 1948 AAA Championship when he was killed (I think at DuQuoin). No-one could have overtaken his points total. If Jochen did not deserve his title, should Horn have posthumously been stripped of his?

I think Jackie Stewart alludes to the CSI thinking about whether Jochen not be awarded the title in his diary of the 1970 season, 'Faster'.

(Needless to say, I am one of those that thinks Jochen deserved the 1970 title.)

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger
Ray Bell is very correct in remembering that Jochen performed a virtual miracle in qualifying the following year. He put the Brabham Repco in the field (way up) in the waning moments of the final day of qualifying with a mist and light drizzle on the track. It was then or never and Jochen pulled it off big time. Most people remember this as one of the singular great feats in Indy qualifying history.

Thanks, Mike, I was sure of myself when I posted that, but Buford had me questioning my memory... in the interim, I had a chance to talk to Jack (as he stood alongside his 1963 'Zink Trackburner Special' on a day when he traded drives with John Harvey at Phillip Id)





(yeah, yeah, I know it's posted elsewhere, but what the heck?)

and he confirmed to me that memory of the few moments of final qualifying and Jochen's 'do or die' effort. The track was wet, he recalled, nobody expected him to make it... my vivid memory is reading reports of big slides off the corners.

But Buford was tooling around with the girls on the infield, apparently...