19 replies to this topic

[brickyard]

One of the most beautiful cars (personnal opinion) in Indycar racing was the McLaren M24.
In Doug Nye's book "McLaren, The GP Can-Am and Indycars" (great book, Doug!), he said that in 1978 Johnny Rutherford had 2 M24's at his disposal at Indy, one from 1977 and another, brand new, the 7th to be built.
Was that the last one to be built? How many were built? And for last, any ideas of who ran with the chassis made, at Indy and other races, between 1977 and 1982?

Thanks

[fines]

I believe the only M24s running were the works one and the Sugaripe Prune of Jerry O'Connell, at least til the end of '79. Later on I recall Theodore and Tony Bettenhausen use obsolescent chassis.

[fines]

Oh forgot: I think Penske had one as well! (1978?)

[McRonalds]

I remember four M24/M24B ran in '79

Johnny Rutherford's - Budweiser/McLaren (B-type)
Tom Sneva's - Sugerpipe Prune/O'Connell
Salt Walther's - Dayton Walther (raced only once, at Phoenix)
Jerry Sneva's - Hodgeson (raced only once, at Ontario)

In '80 we have:

Tom Sneva's - Sugerpipe Prune/O'Connell (later that season he switched to a Phoenix-chassis)
Bill Engelhart's - Beadoin/Master Lock
Vern Schuppan's - Wysard Motor (B-type, only once at Ontario, second race late that season)
Spike Gehlhausen's - O'Hanlon (raced only once, at Mexico, the same car was raced by Lee Kunzman at Pocono and by Cliff Hucul at Milwaukee, first race)
Roger Mears' - Hodgeson (raced only once, at Ontario)
Mike Chandler's - National Engineering (raced only once, at Ontario, second race)

In '81 we have:

Tony Bettenhausen's - Bettenhausen/Provimi Veal (a M24B)
Bill Engelhart's - Beadoin/Master Lock
Vern Schuppan's - T.W.Barnett III/Red Roof Inns
Phil Thershie's - Hamilton/Avnet/Motorola

I think the last M24 to start a CART race was Vern Schuppan at Phoenix, last race of the '81 season - I know nothing about a McLaren M24/M24B entered a race in '82

I think Teddy Pilette tried to qualify one at Indy '82 but failed, so did Bill Engelhart, but Indy was no championship-race at that time. Found that one in my archive - could that be Teddy Pilette - the last M24 at Indy?!

[brickyard]

I was told that a McLaren-Chevy raced with #38, driven by Phil Caliva at Riverside '83. Could this be a M24 (the real last one to race at a CART sancioned race?), or this is another tipe of McLaren (If it really was a McLaren).

[McRonalds]

I'm not sure on this one, but I believe it was an M16-Chevy. By the way; Phil Caliva used to race such a car before. Some M16s (I remember the Karl-McL we talked about some months ago in a thread for example) were raced with a Chevy stock block at the end of their careers.

Brickyard: it looks like you've planned an extremely good research about that things...

...maybe You can tell me what will come out (someday?). I'm a fan of USAC/CART-racing too, though I prefer the sixties.

[brickyard]

maybe You can tell me what will come out (someday?).

well, nothing special. Just a sort of directory with all the Teams, Drivers and Cars that started/try to start a race in the CART era (1979/2002). It's a dream I have since I saw my first indycar race in 1993. This could be a great book. The major problem is that I live far from the sources. That's why I love so much this forum...

[brickyard]

Anyone as photos of this '81 cars?
Bill Engelhart's - Beadoin/Master Lock
Vern Schuppan's - T.W.Barnett III/Red Roof Inns
Phil Thershie's - Hamilton/Avnet/Motorola
and O'Hanlon '80 cars?

[McRonalds]

Vern Schuppan's - T.W.Barnett III/Red Roof Inns

Now, wasn't that car entered by Theodore Racing?!

[McRonalds]

I recently discovered that picture (but I lost the URL) - could that be one of the Mergard McLaren M24 entered in '81 & '82. Sorry, I have no further info...

[fines]

A bit of further research:

Penske had at least two M24s in 1977, driven by Andretti and Sneva at Indy and at most USAC races before the PC5 was ready. I believe one of them was sold to Russel Polak for 1978, to be driven by Larry Dickson. Wally Dallenbach and Salt Walther also drove one, for Jerry O'Connell and Walther Sr., respectively.

In 1979 we have the works (Budweiser) car for Rutherford, the O'Connell (Sugaripe Prune) car for Sneva and the Warner Hodgdon (National Engineering) car for Roger McCluskey (initially) and then Jerry Sneva.

The latter car ran as Hodgdon Engineering (for Roger Mears) and National Engineering (Michael Chandler) again in 1980. The O'Connell car was still in regular use for Sneva, but the works team was disbanded, and the cars possibly sold to Beaudoin Racing (Bill Engelhart) and O'Hanlon Racing (Cliff Hucul, Lee Kunzman, Dick Ferguson, Jerry Sneva and Spike Gehlhausen). Later in the year the Wysard Motor Co. had also one for Vern Schuppan and Pete Halsmer.

In 1981, I have H & R Racing (Tony Bettenhausen II), Theodore Racing (Vern Schuppan), Beaudoin Racing (Bill Engelhart) and possibly Donald Mergard Racing (Phil Threshie), but the latter often appears with a Chevy in Phil's records. So does also the O'Hanlon car (Zamboni Electronic) for Bill Tempero. There is another mystery entry for Jerry Sneva (Team California) at Indy, but I can't find anything about it. The Caliva car, I believe, was an M16 though. At Indy in 1982, Harms has it down as a McLarenLightning, whatever that may be!!!?

[Rainer Nyberg]

Jerry Sneva got the #74 McLaren-DFX up to 176mph at Indy in '81. Not sure of the type, because I have no photo of the entry.

Phil Caliva's 1982 car at Indy is also called a McLaren/Lightning in the IMS Yearbook. From the picture it seems likely that it is possibly a McLaren chassis with bodywork from Lightning.

So does also the O'Hanlon car (Zamboni Electronic) for Bill Tempero.

And I can´t imagine anything more bricklike than a Zamboni running at Indy!
A Zamboni usually sweeps the ice-surface during hockey games, running at a quite leisurely pace!

[Allen Brown]

Nearly 18 years later...

 

Research has continued on this subject, and although we're nowhere near finished, I have finally plucked up the courage to post a review of where we have reached.

https://www.oldracin...om/mclaren/m24/

 

Any new information, or corrections to what has been done so far, would be most welcome.  

Edited by Allen Brown, 10 January 2021 - 14:11.

[chr1s]

Very interesting and a great piece of research. I have a few questions about the McLaren Indy cars in general.

 

1) Where all the USAC cars designed by Gordon Coppuck and built at Colnbrook?

2) You mention that Tyler Alexander ran the works cars, but was that from the UK or did Mclaren have a base / facility in the US?

3) Who finally pulled the plug on the Indy program and why? Did it end before the Project 4 merger or because of it?

 

Thanks.

[Michael Ferner]

1) No to Coppuck, yes to Colnbrook

2) McLaren had a US base, I think in Michigan - will have to look up when home

3) Because of it, although I believe the US team was on borrowed time anyway

[Doug Nye]

US base was known as McLaren Engines, of Livonia, Detroit, Michigan...

 

See:

 

https://www.linamar.com/technology

 

DCN

[Michael Ferner]

Yes, Livonia - that's it!

[chr1s]

Thank you Michael and Doug for your answers.

 

 I have another question which has been on my mind on and off for years, and which there's probably a logical explanation for, but i'm going to ask it anyway!

 

Why was the design of the M26 Formula one car such a departure from the M23 concept, yet the M24 was a development of it. Considering both cars were introduced around the same time, surely the M24 should have looked like an M26 or vice versa, if you see what I mean?  

[Michael Ferner]

Well, not really. You see, the M23 was around for three years already when the M26 was designed, and it was time to explore new grounds in F1, while the M24 was a straightforward development of the M16E to accept the Cosworth DFX engine, which was the most sensible way to go for Indy. The fact that M23 and M24 were alike is mostly to do with the similarity of the engines; I don't think you can say that the M24 was "a development" of the M23.

[blackmme]

Hi Michael from my layman’s perspective the M23 and M24 were very closely related and essentially the M24 was an M23 with beefed up construction and heavier gauge materials used to withstand the forces at Indy.

The M26 was I understand very different from the M23 from a construction and materials perspective with significant use of lightweight aluminium sandwich materials.  
The M26’s were close to the cutting edge of F1 construction at the time and I expect that was too much of an unknown to be considered for Indy at that point.  Also as the Indy Cars were something of a production/customer car it probably wasn’t economically sensible from a cost per unit / manufacturing capacity point of view to use the M26’s design as a starting point, additionally of course there would be the repair in the field aspects.

 

Regards Mike