35 replies to this topic

[dmj]

I know that abbilities of certain drivers in rainy races were already discussed many times. But I wonder if anyone extracted stats from all rainy races, to see what some drivers achieved from statistical point of view while raining? I would like to know more about not only F1 races, but also Sportscar ones (some of arguably best rainy racers ever, like Ickx or Stuck Jnr. probably had less rainy races in F1 than elsewhere). I know it is difficult to put in any order (how to compare hard rain with occasional showers) and that there are lies, hard lies and statistics, but I would still be intrigued to see it. I would especially like to see how many good finishings some of not so greatly praised drivers, from Beltoise to Fisichella, achieved while rainining. And who were real rainmasters? Carraciola, Rosemeyer, Ickx, Senna and one each of Rodriguez, Villeneuve and Schumacher family trees? Or someone else?

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by dmj
And who were real rainmasters? Carraciola, Rosemeyer, Ickx, Senna and one each of Rodriguez, Villeneuve and Schumacher family trees? Or someone else?

http://www.atlasf1.c...ht=Regenmeister might be worth a look.

Vanwall.

[Doug Nye]

Not Denny Hulme - that's for sure! He once famously protested that Formula 1 races should not be run if it was raining - "...they don't play at Wimbledon in the rain!" he bleated, AND he was serious.

DCN

[Ray Bell]

Jenks remarked on this in his 1968 French GP report... included Amon, as I recall, in the comment, which may or may not have been deserved...

[Jeroen Brink]

From an objective statistical point of view, comparing training-results may prove insightful. When continously wet, the grid looked fairly different. The differences were also speaking for themselves. What about Gilles being fastest by 12 seconds at the Glen in '79.

[dmj]

I won a bet when announcing that in a wet race (can't remember which one) positions at least in one moment of the race will be 1. MS 2. Fisichella 3. Barichello
Add maybe Panis and these are drivers that are usually good in wet conditions today.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Jeroen Brink
From an objective statistical point of view, comparing training-results may prove insightful. When continously wet, the grid looked fairly different. The differences were also speaking for themselves. What about Gilles being fastest by 12 seconds at the Glen in '79.

This performance by villeneuve is often mentioned. We should remember that only six drivers recorded a time in that session. Of these, Lammers, Jones and Brambilla were on goodyears which were agreed to be vastly inferior to the michelins in the wet. Arnoux only recorded3m 46.042 so can't have been trying very hard. Villeneuve recorded 2m 01.437 and Scheckter 2m 11.089. We all no about jody's attitude to unecessary risks by that stage of his career.

Everybody agreed that Villeneuve's car control was astonishing, but it's not quite the same as beating the whole field by 10 secs.

[dmj]

Maybe this might be of interest - number of wins in rainy races, only world championship races included.

Schumacher M. 19
Senna 13
Fangio 5
Ascari 4
Hill D. 4
Stewart 4
Brabham 3
Clark 3
Hunt 3
Mansell 3
Moss 3
Barrichello 2
Boutsen 2
Fittipaldi 2
Hill G. 2
Ickx 2
Lauda 2
Prost 2
Reutemann 2
Watson 2
Alboreto 1
Andretti 1
Beltoise 1
Brambilla 1
Collins 1
Coulthard 1
Fisichella 1
Frentzen 1
Gonzalez 1
Hakkinen 1
Herbert 1
Laffite 1
Montoya 1
Nilsson 1
Panis 1
Patrese 1
Piquet 1
Regazzoni 1
Revson 1
Rosberg 1
Surtees 1
Villeneuve G. 1
von Trips 1

[Gary Davies]

Yair well, lies, damn lies and .......

[Wolf]

Well, Dino, if You want to do stats, maybe this should do the trick: #wins in the rain/#wet races (x)vs. #wins/#races (y). So one can sort them either by x or x/y.

Vanwall- it's a bit of harmless fun- I don't think anybody is prepared to take it as a gospel.;)

[BRG]

Originally posted by dmj
Brambilla 1

Shouldn't that be Brambilla ½?

[Wolf]

Naah, BRG- he got the whole win, but half the points.

[dmj]

I'd actually prefer to have some kind of percentage, not related to wins but to rainy races contested, although of course there is a lot of other factors related to one's success in such circumstances. But I do think that this list posted should be a good start for conversation. For example, Peterson is often considered a rainmaster but never won a championship race in rain!

[Wolf]

That's what I meant, Dino- x is pure rain performance, but x/y puts it in perspective (say, two divers can have 20% wins in rain races, but one has 10% wins in starts and 2nd one has 30%- now, I'd say 1st one is probably much better in the rain than the 2nd one).

[Patrick Fletcher]

I do love the Aus.SBK School interpretation of a wet day at our circuit " well we get wet"

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by dmj
.....For example, Peterson is often considered a rainmaster but never won a championship race in rain!

And what about Pedro?

Surtees too, his figure is disproportionate compared to his wet weather ability.

[p de vos]

DMJ, There is a big difference between a list of wins and statistics. Shumi might well have won 19 wet races - and I do think that he is one of the best ever - but in the days of 8 or 9 or 10 races a season most of these guys did not RACE in 19 wet GP's in their whole career.

[bill moffat]

No mention of Hans Stuck Jnr as yet ?

[Ray Bell]

Only in the first post, I think...

[Keir]

I don't think that anyone would dispute Pedro's ability in the wet, he was a true "wet weather" genius at Brands during the BOAC 1000 in 1970 driving the Porsche 917. But as great a day as that was, Pedro didn't always have the car to go along with the talent.

Jacky Ickx, on the other hand, is always awarded the "wet weather" accolades even though if one looks at the stats, he was no better than any of his contemporaries.

Chris Amon, who no one will remember as a "rainmeister", was much faster than Ickx at Monaco in '71 and again at Monaco in the rainy practice in 73 when he was driving a Tecno of all things!!
..... and remember who had the next fastest car at Brands in '70, it wasn't Ickx. Which more than likely prompted the remark by Amon, "Why doesn't someone tell Pedro it's raining!"

As I have said in the past, you can't judge everything by the stats sheet. BUT .....

In my personal book of great rain drivers, Senna and Gilles so tower above all the rest that I would never mention anyone else !

..... but that's me !!

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by dmj
For example, Peterson is often considered a rainmaster but never won a championship race in rain!

I have always considered Austria 1978 as a fairly wet race - how do you rate these things?

[Keir]

With your heart !!

[dbltop]

I think you would have to look at other criteria beside wins. How about Villeneuve's third place in a pig of a Ferrari at Montreal in 1981. Even if he had kept his front wing, it was a remarkable result.

[Martyj]

We never think of him as a rain master because he so much HATED racing in the rain.

None the less, Jim Clark was superb in the wet at Spa. More artful than anything else.

[John B]

Did Senna ever lose a wet race he was running at the end of (apart from, of course, Monaco 1984....)?

I'd be interested in his % of wet laps led, even counting the races he DNFed in....has to be very high.

[dmj]

Originally posted by Tim Murray

I have always considered Austria 1978 as a fairly wet race - how do you rate these things?

This site was my source and I did included only races labelled by them as rainy. Austria 1978 is described as dry. Unfortunately even Cimarosti fails to mention not only weather conditions but whole race! So I have to believe your word it was raining.

It, of course, leads me to where I was initially, opening this thread: does anyone know if there's a resource that lists all rainy races and, perhaps, measures how successfull was someone in such conditions? I'm not a fan of stats but it would be one I'd really like to find.

I'd say that from these rough stats we still can conclude something. Perhaps having Fangio and Ascari so high at the list despite small number of races contested shows that they were more extraordinaire rain drivers than anyone in three decades to follow? Or the fact is that at any point during sixties and seventies there were so many great rainmasters around that no one could put such a dominance?

[Wolf]

IIRC from days when it was free, FORIX had weather conditions for each race- maybe it's worth taking a look. Perchance somebody with subscription would oblige us.

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by dmj

This site was my source and I did included only races labelled by them as rainy. Austria 1978 is described as dry. Unfortunately even Cimarosti fails to mention not only weather conditions but whole race! So I have to believe your word it was raining.

The race started in drizzle, which turned into a severe downpour, leading to it being stopped after eight laps. It was restarted on a very wet track, but a dry line soon emerged and most people stopped for slicks after around ten to twenty laps of the 47 lap second part. As I understand it, the track remained wet in parts for the remainder of the race. Peterson dominated throughout. (Source: Autosport)

[Ray Bell]

And when Colin Bond was given Matich's old McLaren for the Australian Grand Prix of 1971... and the first practice was wet...

Colin was faster than anybody else in that session, and he'd never driven a F5000 before. He was at that time driving series production sedans and rally cars, and his past included the Lynx Peugeot.

[Patrick Fletcher]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Not Denny Hulme - that's for sure! He once famously protested that Formula 1 races should not be run if it was raining - "...they don't play at Wimbledon in the rain!" he bleated, AND he was serious.

DCN

Years ago at a Lady Wigram Trophy Race Denny was down to run a few display laps with M23/1. He made it very clear to George Begg who was putting the display together that if it was wet his car stayed in the tent. When questioned Denny said that the suspension was not c/plated- fullstop
Thankfully it stayed dry and DH, CAA, and Mike the Bike chased each other around the great airfield circuit late into the afternoon.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Doug Nye

Not Denny Hulme - that's for sure! He once famously protested that Formula 1 races should not be run if it was raining..."

I remember standing by his car on the grid for the extremely wet 1974 Race of Champions, and he was having a massive whinge about the fact that the race was being run!

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Twin Window
I remember standing by his car on the grid for the extremely wet 1974 Race of Champions, and he was having a massive whinge about the fact that the race was being run!

Well, it was very wet. That was the race that Ickx won from 11th on the grid (10th in fact, as Mass did not start, having wrecked his car in practice) in the "obsolete" Lotus 72 - Mike Lawrence's description, not mine - and made perhaps one of the greatest overtaking moves of all time by passing Lauda's Ferrari 312B3 on the outside of Paddock. I was there and we, the crowd, went wild. I gather that the race was televised, so some of you who weren't there may have seen it. Ickx also set fastest lap - 1:33.8 - .
It was one of those races that you could drive home from with a warm feeling, despite having been drenched all day.
Hulme finished unclassified.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Kpy

It was one of those races that you could drive home from with a warm feeling, despite having been drenched all day.

Indeed it was, and I was lucky enough to be able to dry out en route with Team Ensign having hitched a lift!

[fines]

Originally posted by dmj
Lauda 2
Prost 2
Piquet 1

It didn't take me long to recall three wet wins for Lauda (E74, MC75, A77) and Prost (F81, I81, MC84), add to that Peterson in '78 and I wonder: what's the worth of such a list...

[dmj]

Originally posted by fines

It didn't take me long to recall three wet wins for Lauda (E74, MC75, A77) and Prost (F81, I81, MC84), add to that Peterson in '78 and I wonder: what's the worth of such a list...

Maybe in possibility to improve on it by correcting mistakes by someone more knowlwedgeable than me...

[subh]

Looking at fastest laps recorded by drivers in wet races, or wet sections of part-wet races, might help here. I recall that Jos Verstappen went very quickly in these wet races: Brazil 1996, Spain 1996, Europe 2000, Canada 2000 and Malaysia 2001. Of course, he failed to finish in three of them...