55 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

I'm just ploughing through the proofs - when I'm not rivetted to TNF - of a book we're producing on Dick Seaman....yes, I know, I know, another one.... - but I think this is one with a valuable difference because it's based around the correspondence between the driver and his great friend George Monkhouse - the photographer.

We are reproducing some of the letters in colour to accompany the transcripts printed into the text - so one can actually derive something from sight of Dick's handwriting, and the paper upon which he wrote, etc. There are some really interesting letter-headings - like the 'Hotel Uaddan - Casino - Tripoli' and the splendidly OTT-sounding 'Hotel Graf Zeppelin' in Berlin. Mix in some decent photographs, extensive appendix notes to explain some of the 'in-crowd' references within the letters and I hope we are producing something of merit.

I have also used material written by Dick's mother, Mrs Lilian Beattie-Seaman, a copy of which ended up with the late George Monkhouse. With the help of this material parts of the story are somewhat "Jennifer's diary" - but I felt that it adds much humanity to the story, and reveals many of the prejudices, attitudes, fears and tensions of that era - when the world was swirling towards yet another horrific war and there was absolutely nothing that uninformed public opinion could do to avert it...and poor (silly? selfish? dazzled?) Dick just wanted his favoured pursuit to prevail.

We have uncovered some new - or at least - long-time unseen or undiscussed - material on Dick's final fatal crash at Spa when leading the 1939 Belgian GP.

I have tried to obtain sight of a copy of the local newspaper 'La Meuse' I think it was, relating either to the race and the incident, to Dick's demise, or to any local inquest or inquiry into the fatality. I have drawn an absolute blank. It may well be that any local inquest or inquiry was pre-empted by declaration of World War 2, or by the May 1940 invasion? Could anyone offer any assistance in my search????

DCN

[Marcor]

I can ! I've sent you an e-mail about that...

[Marcor]

There's a report of the crash in the newpaper Les Sports (Wednesday 28 June). In French...

I Hope to copy it tomorrow in the Brussels library.

[Doug Nye]

Marc - pas de probleme! Please don't make a trip specially for me, but if the Library is handy for you, then sight of a copy of the text would be fantastique...

DCN

[Marcor]

The library is only 1/4 hour from home, in tram (no problem of parking !)

[Don Capps]

Now Hans leaves for his pilgrimage to sort through the sources first hand!

[Doug Nye]

Huh - I don,t believe this. Do you blokes provide room service too? DCN

[Don Capps]

Yes, but the kitchen is being renovated right now. The additional charge is nominal and free for frequent visitors....

[Don Capps]

Also, I am sure you have seen this:

http://www.atlasf1.c...=&threadid=8247

If not, you might be interested in it.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Don Capps
Also, I am sure you have seen this:

http://www.atlasf1.c...=&threadid=8247

If not, you might be interested in it.

Don, that is very, very cruel ....

[Don Capps]

Hey, Hans isn't here to point it out to Doug...

[Vitesse2]

Very true, but Doug will probably now disappear for three days while he reads it all!!

[Hans Etzrodt]

My plane leaves in six hours. Just enough time for some posting here. In the early nineties, I wrote the following story for my own use and might as well share it with you fellows in case you're interested. Certain sections I would write differently today, eight or so years later. I left the statistics out but the starting grid remained. You might just be able to figure it out.

1939 Belgian Grand Prix
Richard Seaman's last race. A sad victory for Lang and Mercedes-Benz.

June 25, 1939 This race will forever evoke sad memories because of Dick Seaman's fatal crash while leading on a rain soaked track. It was one of the most dreadful accidents remembered. After this tragedy, Hermann Lang inherited the lead and finished first. This win made it five in a row for Lang and Mercedes-Benz, if Tripolis and the Vienna Mountain Race are included. Up to the ninth lap all attention focused on the duel between the leader H.P. Müller and the pursuer Hermann Lang. When Müller was called into the pits for a fuel stop, Seaman went into the lead. He and Lang were both in tremendous form. The rain soaked road was very slippery and old masters like Caracciola and Nuvolari fell prey to the treacherous conditions. Meier and Seaman also spun off the slick circuit separately, with Seaman trapped unconsciously in his damaged car, when it caught fire. He died the same night from the severe burns. Hasse, winner of the 1937 event, came second with the Auto Union, and von Brauchitsch's Mercedes-Benz was third. The race saw the last appearance of the 3-liter factory Alfa Romeo.

The first Belgian Grand Prix for grand prix cars, won by Antonio Ascari, was held 1925 at Spa. After five years, grand prix cars raced again in 1930 and 1931. Following a one year interruption were consecutive grand prix races in 1933, 1934, and 1935, followed by the 1937 Grand Prix. 1939 was the eighth time for grand prix cars at the Spa circuit and it was the first race counting towards this year's European Championship.

Spa was one of the fastest and most difficult road circuits with fast sweeping bends and trees bordering most parts of the narrow course. When it was wet, the surface became slippery and made the course dangerous. Since the 1937 race, the Spa circuit had been shortened to exactly 14.500 km or 9.010 mi. Now, after the start, instead of turning left after the Eau Rouge bridge, a new wide right hand turn was leading up the hill. The old right-hand Frontier hairpin just past the left Eau Rouge bend was left out, shortening the course by 364 meters. This year, 35 laps had to be covered to make up the 500 km minimum distance required for a Grand Prix. The AIACR had decided in October 1938 that grand prix races were to go only over 300 km distance. The French GP, however, was to go over 500 km distance. (Ref.: MOTOR UND SPORT 1938, No.45, p49.) This decision did not influence the race distance of the Belgian GP

Entry: Five different makes competed, with a total of only 14 cars. Alfa Corse entered an improved 316, unlike last year's model. It had a newer version of the V-16 440 hp engine, a less wind resistant exhaust system, and smother body work. This Alfa Romeo, assigned to Giuseppe Farina, was the only halfway serious competition the Germans had. By the way, it was also the last time the Italian team entered a 3-liter grand prix car.

Auto Union arrived with five type D cars for Tazio Nuvolari, Rudi Hasse, H.P. Müller, and Georg Meier. Hans Stuck was not present, instead he raced the same day in Bucharest, where he won an uneven contest against sports cars. Thus, team manager Dr. Feuereisen included again the new man, Georg Meier. This was the Bavarian's second try with a Grand Prix car, after the Auto Union's practice breakdown at the Eifelrennen. Meier was an experienced motorcycle champion and besides driving for Auto Union, he was also contracted for 1939 with BMW, winning the senior TT that year amongst other races.

Daimler-Benz entered four W154's for Rudi Caracciola, Manfred von Brauchitsch, Hermann Lang and Dick Seaman. The cars were equipped with M154 engines, the heavier M163's were not used for this race. For the first time all engines were outfitted with two-stage supercharging, delivering a peak power of 475 hp at 7500 rpm instead at a higher 8000 rpm, as had been the case with the old version.

The rest of the drivers had no chance to win under normal circumstances. The fastest of them was the wealthy French private entrant, Raymond Sommer, with last years 295 hp Alfa Romeo 308. Adolfo Mandirola, a Swiss privateer, entered his very old and heavily modified 3-liter 8CM Maserati giving at best 240 hp. Another Swiss, young Baron Emmanuel de Graffenried De Graffenried's name is mentioned only in one report that he did not start. It would attach a name to the missing official race number 16. (Ref.:Kölnische Zeitung from June 26, 1939, in "Unter dem Mercedes Stern" from Bodo Herzog, in an old 6C34 Maserati with 3-liter engine, did not show up. The week before, Frenchman Louis Gerard had just come second with a Delage in the tragic 24 hours of Le Mans. Now he brought his 3.5 liter six-cylinder 160 hp Delahaye 135 Competition and privateer René Mazaud showed up with the same model, both cars had no superchargers.

Practice: During practice, Müller's racing engine got damaged. Was it possibly the persistent crankshaft problem? Team Manager Dr. Feuereisen had blamed Müller's hard driving style and him not being sensible enough towards his engine. Müller received a training engine for the race. New man, Meier, had good circuit experience from two previous motorcycle races on this circuit. His best time practicing the Auto Union was 10m16s. The more experienced Nuvolari lapped in 10m05s, also in the rain.
Race: On race day low hanging clouds covered the Ardennes forest with intermittent rain showers. It rained on one side of the circuit and not on the other. Track conditions changed continuously and were unpredictable. A corner which was dry one lap could be wet and slippery the next. This would make driving difficult. Müller's Auto Union had the oil cooler, placed in the lower third of the radiator grill, covered up because of the cooler weather. It was raining hard when the cars, protected by tarpaulins and umbrellas, were rolled to the grid. The Belgian King Leopold III, very much interested in the Grand Prix cars, greeted the drivers at the starting grid.

The organization left a lot to be desired, since the line up for the starting grid was not in order of the achieved practice times, but instead by ballot. Lots were drawn by the teams and then the team managers usually assigned their best drivers to the front positions. This old-fashioned arrangement, customary for Spa, brought again slower cars to the front of the grid, and the 13 drivers lined up as follows:
10 22 6
Farina Lang Müller
(Alfa Romeo) (Mercedes-Benz) (Auto Union)

26 2
Seaman Nuvolari
(Mercedes-Benz) (Auto Union)

4 20 8
Hasse Caracciola Meier
(Auto Union) (Mercedes-Benz) (Auto Union)

12 24
Sommer Brauchitsch
(Alfa Romeo) (Mercedes-Benz)

28 18 14
Mandirola Gerard Mazaud
(Maserati) (Delahaye) (Delahaye)

The 1:30 PM start was not carried out with the usual flag but an optical signal. It was raining. The starting area, situated on a downhill slope, had in the past caused cars to roll on the grid in the last seconds before the flag fell. This time it was Farina's 16-cylinder Alfa Romeo creeping forward. At the green light, it was the Italian in the lead, followed by Müller, Lang, Nuvolari, Caracciola, Seaman, and Hasse. An advantage of 35 hp enabled Müller and Lang to get passed Farina's Alfa on the long climb after the start. With an average of 90 mph, Müller finished the first lap in the lead, chased by Lang, Nuvolari, and Caracciola. Farina had fallen back to fifth place, followed by Seaman, Hasse, Brauchitsch, Sommer and Meier. One by one, the silver cars eventually went past the slower Alfa Romeo. Farina fell continuously back, not to play a role in the outcome of the race.

Despite the slippery conditions, the average had risen to 93.2 mph after the second lap. Müller in the lead had Lang glued to his tail. Regardless of the blue flag being shown, the Auto Union used the whole width of the rain slicked road and Lang could not get by. On the third lap Caracciola overtook Nuvolari for third place.

Lang and Müller carried on their battle for first. The Mercedes was covered by the Auto Union's foggy spray. It was a terrible situation for Lang. He was waiting for a better opportunity to get by, then slowed down a bit but was never more than 50 to 100 yards away. When Caracciola and Nuvolari slowed down as well, Seaman went passed the Italian to take fourth place. Now Müller was chased by the Mercedes team in close formation, Lang, Caratsch, and Seaman. Mazaud's and Gerard's Delahayes, making up the rear, had already been lapped on lap four. Despite the rain, which had again become heavier at the start and finish, the average speed had gone up to 94.6 mph after lap four.

Lang, unable to pass Müller, was shaking his fist furiously. The blue flag had repeatedly been shown to Müller but Lang could not get passed him. The Auto Union stayed in the middle of the road and Müller seemed to be quite busy with his car. It was obviously not easy for two almost equally fast cars to pass one another at 150 mph on a 18 feet wide road and this on a tree lined wet circuit with fog like spray reducing vision. Müller, later had to confront the monstrous accusation of blocking Lang and Caracciola. He assured after the race that he had no such intentions and that he couldn't see anything in his dirty mirrors. It was interesting to notice, that even Nuvolari did not drive as fast as Müller, and that Müller's was indeed the fastest Auto Union at that time. He was however handicapped by having the training car's engine, which started to loose power early on.

On lap nine, Lang, tired of following Müller's spray, waved Caracciola and Seaman by. Caratsch tried to go inside Müller at the La Source hairpin, but misjudged the slippery corner and spun off onto the inside grass. The car was undamaged but faced now back towards the hairpin. On top of it, the engine had stalled in the process. Unable to get the car back on the track, Caracciola was the first one to retire and walked the short distance to the pits. After nine laps, the Auto Union was still in the lead, now chased by Seaman and Lang.

At the end of lap ten, under great applause from the crowd, Seaman crossed the line first. Müller, who had been called in to refuel, followed closely. Seaman was now pulling away from Lang. Müller, despite his fuel stop, had retained third place and was followed by Nuvolari and Hasse. Von Brauchitsch stopped on lap 12 to replace a flat rear tire and add a quick squirt of fuel. This enabled Meier to move into sixth place. At the end of the same lap, Seaman was already 30 seconds ahead of Lang and 41 of Müller, with Nuvolari, Hasse, Meier, and Brauchitsch trailing. On lap 13, Nuvolari passed Müller who was falling back with his sick engine.

On lap 14, Meier's first grand prix race came to an end. While attempting to pass Mandirola's Maserati at Blanchimont, he spun off, sliding the Auto Union into the ditch. The car undamaged, he could not move it back onto the road and the Bavarian walked the few kilometers to start and finish. After 14 laps, Seaman was 17 seconds ahead of Lang, 27 of Nuvolari. He lapped Farina's Alfa Romeo for the first time. At the end of lap 15, Seaman was leading Lang by only 12 seconds and Nuvolari by 27. Müller, Hasse, and von Brauchitsch followed. All others were already lapped by the leading group.

At half time, on lap 17, Seaman made a 30 second stop for gas and rear tires. Nuvolari was next to stop for fuel and a quick drink from the bottle. The lead went temporarily to Lang, until he also pitted the following lap. Lang's stop took only 25 seconds, but Dick had enough advantage to regain the lead on lap 18. Nuvolari was now 40 seconds behind Seaman. On lap 17, Müller stopped for the second time at the pits. This moved Hasse and Brauchitsch up to fourth and fifth place, respectively. After all pit stops, the rain had diminished. On lap 20 the order was Seaman, Lang, Nuvolari, Hasse, Brauchitsch, and Müller. Müller made a third pit stop to cure his engine problems. Seaman was pulling away and extending his advantage to 30 seconds, despite the slippery roads.

On lap 21, Mandirola in the old Maserati, had given up with suspension problems. At that time, it also had stopped raining, Seaman was now leading Lang by only 23 seconds and Nuvolari by 52. Lang had established the fastest lap with 101.398 mph on a drying circuit. At the end of lap 21, the order was Seaman, Lang, Nuvolari, Hasse, von Brauchitsch, and Müller. Farina, already twice lapped, struggled in seventh place. When he retired his red Alfa Romeo with supercharger problems, the fastest non German car had disappeared.

On lap 22, Dick Seaman was going through Club corner, the fast left turn just before La Source hairpin. This time he had been too fast. When accelerating out of the turn, the Mercedes skidded off the wet road, striking a tree with the rear from where it bounced off into another. The car struck the second tree with full force sideways at the cockpit and consequently wrapped itself around it. The impact broke Dick's right arm, bruised a kidney, and he received a concussion. His head must have hit the tree at the impact, causing him to loose consciousness. The large connection from the forward saddle tank to the rear tank ruptured when the tree bent the chassis. He had just refueled six laps back and now this fuel was gushing over the hot exhaust pipe and ignited immediately. Lang followed about 20 seconds behind and reaching this fast turn, he was shown the yellow flag and slowed down. As he was approaching the exit of this blind curve he saw what had happened. The Englishman was sitting motion-less in the flaming cockpit of his car.

It must have taken over half a minute before Dick was saved out of this inferno. The few spectators at the corner did not dare to go right away near the burning car from which emitted three cones of fire. The first on the scene was a Belgian soldier, who was not familiar with the mechanism and could not release the catch of the detachable steering wheel to free the trapped unconscious driver. Two marshals, running up from La Source hairpin to the burning car, helped the soldier to finally pull the driver out of the flames. By this time Dick had received third degree burns on legs, arms, hands, upper body and face. Georg Meier, who had retired eight laps earlier, on his walk back to the pits said, he saw the accident happening about 300 yards ahead of him. He ran and by the time he reached the scene, Seaman had already been placed on the grass with red cross people present.

Lang came back from this 22nd lap, he stopped very briefly at his pits to inform the team about Seaman's accident. Thus, Dr. Gläser, the German racing doctor for Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union, and some mechanics ran to the scene of the accident not far away from the pits. Lang pulled back into the race but was so shook up after having witnessed Dick's fateful crash that he would have rather not carried on. One after the other, drivers passed the pits with strained faces, pointing towards the scene of the accident. No official announcements were made. Lang was 45 seconds ahead of Nuvolari and 1m37s ahead of Hasse, followed by Brauchitsch, Müller, Sommer, Mazaud, and Gerard.

In the meantime, Dr. Gläser had arrived in short time at the scene of the crash where he gave Seaman some injections but they were not effective in relieving the terrible pains. Richard Seaman was rushed to the Spa hospital where everything imaginable was done by the doctors to save his life.

At the end of lap 26, Müller pulled in the pits and retired his backfiring Auto Union with a broken valve. On lap 28, Nuvolari, who had come steadily closer to Lang, spun off the course at slippery Stavelot, hitting a fence. Several laps later he arrived slowly at the pits and retired with a damaged steering knuckle. The field had shrunk now to six cars with Lang 2m17s ahead of Hasse, then Brauchitsch another two minutes behind, followed by Sommer, Mazaud and Gerard.

On lap 34, Lang was two minutes ahead of Hasse, when all of a sudden his engine started to cut out. He realized that he had not received enough fuel at his stop and therefore the tank had to be empty. When racing on a wet circuit, it was preferred not to fill the tank to the top since a tail-heavy rear would slide around easier. Lang had about two miles to go to the pits and was very easy with the throttle. His car started to sputter. Then, at La Source hairpin the engine stalled. Fortunately, from there to the pits, the road went downhill. As the car rolled silently towards the pits, Lang was continuously hitting the fuel tank cap with his right hand. After the excitement about Seaman's crash, Lang's crew had not ordered him to the pits for fuel. They now realized that he had an empty tank with one lap to go. In a moment Lang took enough fuel for one last lap, but then the car wouldn't start again. Air was now in the fuel lines and carburetor. The mechanics had to push the car, it caught once and stalled again. Again, the mechanics pushed Lang further downhill to Eau Rouge trying to push start the car but the engine wouldn't fire. Then the second placed car, Hasse's Auto Union, roared past the pits, now just four seconds behind Lang. At the last moment, just before the car came to a stop at the beginning of the new right hand uphill corner, Lang's Mercedes finally fired up. Now, he chased in earnest after Hasse who had just passed him. Lang was able to not only get by the Auto Union but at the finish was 17 seconds ahead to a cheerless victory. Von Brauchitsch came third, almost two minutes behind his winning teammate, followed by the Frenchmen, Sommer, Mazaud, Gerard, three, five, and six laps back respectively.

Because of the rain, the 3 hours and 20 minute race was no new record. Lang's speed of 94.4 mph was almost 10 mph below Hasse's time two years ago. After this hard, sorrowful race it had become evident that the circuit was not suitable for these speeds. It would be necessary to remove trees, widen the narrow circuit, and put a rougher surface down.

Richard Seaman: This time after the race, there was no party for the Mercedes team. Instead they went to the hospital. Dick's head and whole upper body were completely wrapped up in white bandages. When Dick regained full consciousness, he was able to speak both German and English to his wife and friends. He was able to explain what had happened and told Neubauer that the crash had been his own fault. Dick lapsed into unconsciousness and died of his burns soon after midnight.

This regrettable accident had everybody deeply moved. The loss of the 26-year old, popular Dick Seaman was a shock to all and hardened men were crying. Sports-manlike persuasion was for him a natural form of life. A true gentleman, reserved, modest in appearance, displaying camaraderie, Dick was well liked everywhere. He was mourned in England as well as in Germany. England had lost their best driver.

[Flicker]

Seaman's Mercedes-Benz wracks...

[Ray Bell]

The gatepost looks like good roadside furniture too...

Is Seaman out in this pic, or still in the car?

[Doug Nye]

Not really on the point, but thanks anyway - by the time photographers reached the scene the unfortunate driver had been removed from the car - the fire seems to have been damped down and then flared up again several times. Oddly, much of the seat-back upholstery survived unburned...I spoke to a surviving eye witness some months ago.

DCN

.

[Patrick Italiano]

Doug,

I've been researching at the Liege library on the 1939 Belgian GP, and looked throughout the La Meuse issues of that week, including the daily news of the teams arrival one week before, and so on. I scanned 3 pictures, one of Farina and two (nice) of Lang during the race, but not the text, and I have them here at hand. Of course, newspaper pics aren't top quality, but I took copies in 300 dpi, TIFF.

I have negociated the possibility to scan at the Library with my own material so I can go there once more and take more copies.

Are available also La Wallonie and La Gazette de Liege with their own reports, but less pictorial material.

If that can help...

[MichaelJP]

Coincidentally, I've just finished reading the Nixon book "Shooting Star", and I'd certainly buy Doug's book to get more info on this fascinating story.

I've been to the modern Spa, but the area seems much changed - where exactly did Seaman crash?

Is it the gentle left hand band following the exit of the "bus-stop" chicane? The old pictures show lots of trees, but I suppose these were all cut down in redevelopment.

Was the whole circuit much more wooded in those days?

Thanks,

- Michael

[Patrick Italiano]

Is it the gentle left hand band following the exit of the "bus-stop" chicane? The old pictures show lots of trees, but I suppose

That's the place and, er, yes, it has changed alot.

[David J Jones]

Doug

On the subject of RJB Seaman's fatality have you come across anything related to the maintenance of his gravesite at Putney Vale?

I read in the Daily Telegraph a year ago that M-B paid for his gravesite to be maintained. I posted in this forum and received confirmation that the grave was indeed being maintained.

Have you heard anything about this?

If not it might be a nice touch for inclusion in the book as it seems that someone was or is interested in the grave. The Telegraph article specifically stated M-B did it but whether it is the UK or German HQ was not stated.

[Doug Nye]

My understanding is that M-B UK make 'a fitting contribution'. Which is nice. Not like grubbing up inconvenient memorial stones and tossing them into store.

[Doug Nye]

Just heard from Marc - stunning gen - and not least of which is contemporary report by Jacques Ickx that (just between ourselves) the Seaman accident occurred on the 23rd lap of that 1939 Belgian GP - which blows all the toffee that the numbers theorists have relied on for years totally out of the water - i.e. Dick was v. suspicious of unlucky number '13' - yet he died aged 26 (i.e. 13 x 2 = 26) on the 26th of the month in car 26 on lap 26, 13 laps from the scheduled end of the race.

Well, I have hard evidence he died that same night - on the 25th - and now here's evidence that he crashed on lap 23 not 26. Any views on this???

And thank you Marc - so much.

DCN

[Vitesse2]

Er, Doug, I don't think he could have died on the 25th! The race was on the 26th.

But this prompted me to cross-check to Sheldon - he also says Dick died "that night". In addition, his records say it was lap 22, and of course it was a 34 lap race, not 39. So he would have completed 21 of 34, which is 13 short.

BTW I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory.

[Felix Muelas]

Richard,

I think the race was on the 25th, so the "jump" to 26th as a further 13 multiple might have been used at some point. Don´t know where, but obviously as Doug points out, it might have been "used".

I have checked Nixon, Court and Prince Chula. None of them use the 26th as "death date".
BUT
a) I don´t agree with the number of laps. I think there were 35 and Seaman crashed on 22nd. See Hans´ reconstruction above, that is quite clear about that. So 13 missing.

b) Of course the question is not about our personal approach to the strange series of 13-involved. I will quote both Prince Chula and Chris Nixon about that :

Chula (Dick Seaman, Racing Motorist, G.T. Foulis & Co, London 1941, page 360)
"The sequence of number 13 in connection with Dick Seaman´s misfortune certainly requires a difficult explanation from those who do not believe in superstition"

Chris Nixon (Shooting Star, TBP, Middlesex 2000, page 187)
"It is astonishing to recall how the number 13 and its multiples caught up with Dick on that fateful day. He was 13th on the list of 13 starters for the race, driving car number 26. The grille on the front of his Mercedes had 13 upright bars in it. He was 26 years old. He crashed close by the 13-kilometre stone on the circuit at the end of his 13th lap in the lead, with 13 laps to go to the end of the race. He died in Room 39 at the Croix Rouge Hospital"

Haven´t checked any others -but I will- although these two will not lose value because a further 13-related item (the day of the month) can´t be added (and it cannot, at least on what I have found everybody points at death before midnight).

It might be a mathematical explanation for those coincidences, but if that is so it might come from a better prepared mind than mine : in the absence of John Nash in this Forum ;) we still have an outstanding mind in that kind of analysis in Leif Snellman, but if there isn´t one, well, what can one add?

Felix

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I'm just ploughing through the proofs - when I'm not rivetted to TNF - of a book we're producing on Dick Seaman....yes, I know, I know, another one.... - but I think this is one with a valuable difference because it's based around the correspondence between the driver and his great friend George Monkhouse - the photographer.

Well, we will be delighted to buy it, read it and comment it ! You will probably get better marks than the ones we awarded almost two years ago to Chris Nixon´s "Shooting Star" ...

Felix

[Doug Nye]

Er, Doug, I don't think he could have died on the 25th! The race was on the 26th.

Aaaaggghhhh! Excuse me while I re-boot my brain...brrr, brrr, click, click - No,no - fully rebooted now,

Vitesse 2 - some mistake, I fear, and not by me perhaps....?

I have a copy cutting from the achive of 'The Daily Telegraph' national newspaper in London, reporting Dick's death. It's very brief indeed, quotes the Reuter Press Agency, and is plainly datelined 'Monday, June 26, 1939'. Marc has sent me texts from 'Les Sports' for Monday, June 26, Tuesday June 27 and Wednesday June 28, 1939, and from 'Le Matin' for Monday, June 26.

On this contemporary evidence, raceday was plainly Sunday, June 25...

Almost as long as I can remember having a detailed interest in motor sport, that date - June 26 - has often been quoted 'at me' by number-theorist Seaman fans.

Incidentally, one of my pivotal life-experiences was on my 27th birthday - when I suddenly realised I was older than one of my great heroes had ever been.........

DCN

[Vitesse2]

Oops! I didn't have a 1939 calendar to hand! I took that date from Sheldon and have altered it in my copy!! The same date is in Higham BTW ...

As to the number of laps, I'm finding all sorts of discrepancies! I shall return ...

[Ray Bell]

Hmmm... Neubauer doesn't mention the number of bars in the grille... nor, IIRC, the list of starters, though he makes a play on the '13 conspiracy'...

Yes, Doug, many of us outlive some mighty fine heroes...

[Roger Clark]

THe earliest publication I have found which gives the date of the race as the 26th is Pomeroy's "The Grand Prix Car". Presumably Lang won that day in a Mercedes W163...

[Vitesse2]

Okay, here we are: comparison time!

According to Darren's site, the lap length in 1939 was 9.06 miles, after the Ancienne Douanne hairpin had been bypassed.

Sheldon: 34 laps, 314.79 miles, 94.39mph
Higham: 34 laps, 308.04 miles, 92.250mph
Snellman: 35 laps, 315.35 miles, 94.443mph (my conversions from km, km/h 1 mile = 1.609344km)
King-Farlow: 315 miles, 94.39 mph

Higham's race distance is the only one that matches Darren's lap distance! Sheldon's works out at 9.26 miles and Leif's at 9.01 miles.

Any thoughts anyone?

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
THe earliest publication I have found which gives the date of the race as the 26th is Pomeroy's "The Grand Prix Car". Presumably Lang won that day in a Mercedes W163...

Casus belli!
Let´s point Doug Nye to that wonderful thread initiated by Hans where, in Tony Kaye´s words Laurence Pomeroy has been tried, convicted and executed for committing the heinous crime of inventing the W163 designation for the 1939 Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix car. I am sure he will love it!

Felix

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Any thoughts anyone?

Richard,

Two, before going straight to bed :

a) Darren´s source is probably Higham. I´m almost sure, but he will confirm / deny my suspicions...

b) Being judge and part here, I am extremelly tempted to settle the question in favour of Leif
I am not aware of the process of this particular data (well, or maybe I am, but I have forgot) but I distinctly recall as one of the most spectacular eye-openers of my life seeing Hans´ excel file about this race, and it was something so well-researched, that no point had been left unnatended. I´ve seen nothing like it ever. Just to follow that line of thinking, I have no doubts that, when discrepancies arise for that period, Leif´s site is the answer.

Felix

PS : I am not sure if the final .000044 has been used...maybe just €-settling for 4 decimals !

[Doug Nye]

Forgive me again - who or what is 'Higham'???

DCN

[Felix Muelas]

Sorry for being criptic...
Higham is a who named Peter.
He is the author of The Guinness Guide to International Motor Racing.
Don´t have a copy at hand, so really I can´t expand too much on it or on its qualities / value.
;)
Felix

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Forgive me again - who or what is 'Higham'???

DCN

Peter Higham: Guinness Guide to International Motor Racing (Guinness 1995)

I've since checked Nixon's Racing the Silver Arrows - on page 326-7 he quotes the same lap length in miles as Darren. However, his conversions appear to be wrong! 1939 lap is given as 14.50km, which is actually, as on Leif's site, 9.01 miles. At a rough guess, he's used a conversion of exactly 1.6 to 1. Even 1.61 to 1 would have been better, and it probably wouldn't matter so much on a shorter lap: he has used the same conversion on the previous circuit, 14.86km becoming 9.29 miles (actually 9.23 miles). Although to be fair to Nixon, he's probably just copied it from someone else - there is no consistency in the book, with several different conversion rates on the track maps! The result on page 336 agrees with Leif. Get your calculators out guys ...

[Darren Galpin]

I think that Felix is right and that the distance quoted came from Peter Higham's book. I think that the only way I'll solve this thing is to drive around the circuit again next time I am there and note thr figures from my trip meter (although that's only to the nearest 0.1mile). Does anyone in our group of Belgian friends have a really accurate map (1:10,000 or so) of the area and a ruler?

[David J Jones]

Doug

It is a little known fact that the race was on Sunday June 25th. I discovered this from a 1939 calendar.

Howver - stilll on the subject of 13's - having lost the 26th we can replace it with two more -Dick was born in 1913 and died 26 years later in 1939.

Back to the gravesite - do you know when M-B started contributing after the war?

[Doug Nye]

No.

[paulhooft]

I was at the track about a year ago:
But I think you cannot tour it any more: they told me there is a gate at some where at La source, one at Les Combes erected now and another one where the old circuit joines the new at the return part.. half way between Stavelot and Blanchimont
So it is closed now ..
Again, a pity!!
Paul Hooft

[paulhooft]

I have another picture of the burning Mercedes in a 1952 Fawcett softcover book called Sports Cars in Competition.
I'll scan it , but I cannot get it on the forum myself,
Can I send it to someone how can do that for me?
Paul

[Ray Bell]

Yeah, I can fix that if you do it soon...

raybell@eisa.net.au

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
I think that Felix is right and that the distance quoted came from Peter Higham's book. I think that the only way I'll solve this thing is to drive around the circuit again next time I am there and note thr figures from my trip meter (although that's only to the nearest 0.1mile). Does anyone in our group of Belgian friends have a really accurate map (1:10,000 or so) of the area and a ruler?

I'm pretty sure that this all comes from faulty conversions - as near as dammit 8 kilometres is 5 miles, and 8 divided by 5 is 1.6. However, near as dammit ain't good enough in this case and, as I posted above, 1.61 is nearer. I've always calculated to six decimals and then rounded back to however many places the original number was quoted in.

The lap distances in km quoted by Nixon are most likely correct, so they should be used as the base - in which case, 9.01 miles is correct, not 9.06 miles.

As to the variations in results, presumably Higham (1995) has lifted the lap distance from Nixon (1985) and "corrected" what he thought was an error in Sheldon's (1993) calculations. There was an error there, but not the one he thought it was - IMO Sheldon has used the wrong track length and tried to reconcile it with King-Farlow (who only ever gives distances to the nearest mile). This meant he reduced the total number of laps by 1 on a back-calculation and adjusted the retirement lap numbers as well!

[MrAerodynamicist]

1.609

[Michael Müller]

Yes, I will upload it.
michael@axos.nl

Oops, didn't realize page 2.

[paulhooft]

Subject: Photo of Dick Seaman chrash

Hi,
I have scanned the picture of the Burning Mercedes Benz of Dick Seaman.
This is not the kind of photo I enjoy as you should understand,
so it's only for the record.
Special thanks to Michael for his help in publishing the picture.
Paul

[Michael Müller]

I uploaded this photo for Paul, but I gave him an incorrect URL. Sorry!

[David J Jones]

A similar picture was on display when I last visited Donnington.

Later the picture was reproduced in 'Hitlers GP's in Engalnd'

[David J Jones]

Another piece of information about the Seaman crashsite.

In 1956 Jean Behra went off the road backwards at the same point and missed the memorial stone.

In 1958 Archie Scott-Brown carashed and received severe burns from which he died. Archie glanced off the memorial during his crash. He was subsequently treated by the same doctor who attended Seaman. (Archie and the Listers)

I haved always wondered if both RJBS and AS-B would have survived had a burns specialist such as McIndoe been on hand at both events. McIndoe must have treated many worse cases between 1939 and 1945.

However.......

[David J Jones]

Another piece of information about the Seaman crashsite.

In 1956 Jean Behra went off the road backwards at the same point and missed the memorial stone.

In 1958 Archie Scott-Brown crashed and received severe burns from which he died. Archie glanced off the memorial during his crash. He was subsequently treated by the same doctor who attended Seaman. (Archie and the Listers)

I haved always wondered if both RJBS and AS-B would have survived had a burns specialist such as McIndoe been on hand at both events. McIndoe must have treated many worse cases between 1939 and 1945.

However.......

[Doug Nye]

Archie Scott-Brown's accident ended up quite a distance after the corresponding Seaman site, further towards La Source hairpin.

I believe that the roadside stone which shattered his Lister-Jaguar's right-front suspension and steering was actually a normal marker stone, and one which Paul Frere had warned the organisers about after practice - having identified it as an unnecessary trackside hazard.

Scott-Brown might have been in with a chance of retrieving the situation had he not struck that stone. The impact dragged the Lister down the roadside bank just beyond that point, where it struck the face of a drainage ditch and began to roll and somersault. It finally came to rest on the infield inverted and on fire, closer to La Source than to the Clubhouse Corner and the Seaman stone.

DCN