85 replies to this topic

[LB]

Sorry but a major seven car pile up in turn one should be a race stoppage for me. 12 cars GP's are a joke.

[AlesiGOD]

Yes..

Damn, Trulli out..

[Nikolas Garth]

I would have liked to see a restart. :

Now I just wonder what excuse fools are gonna come up with to explain how this decision was taken to advantage MS.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Australian marshalls are among the best in the world. Too good this time, they got it cleaned up :-/

[Ricardo F1]

Yeah, but whoever is in race control is a wanker . . .

[lukyluke]

Originally posted by LB
Sorry but a major seven car pile up in turn one should be a race stoppage for me. 12 cars GP's are a joke.

well, as you see, ms was still on track, no need for red flag then

[Ross Stonefeld]

Thing is though, red flag is a safety flag not a show flag. So even if 21 cars were smoking in the travel trap as long as no one is injured, the track isnt blocked, and its gonna be fairly easy to cleanup; there's no reason to red flag.

Sure took the guts out of the race though

[MrAerodynamicist]

I'm with Russ on this one. Crashing is part of racing and the red flag isn't there as a get out of jail free card. If you use the red flag is purely a question of safety. Should if have been red flag or safety card is dependant on which had least risk: another race restart & the potential for another crash, Or, a safety car & risk punctures from the debris. And between those two, there is no right or wrong answer, just different answers. I'd have been happy with either. Sure a red flag would have been better for the show, but, doing stuff for the show? Isn't that what people so despise NASCAR for?

[HP]

Originally posted by lukyluke


well, as you see, ms was still on track, no need for red flag then

Remember Austria 2000? I guess most that believe that FIA favours Ferrari and MS will conviently forget about that one.

Ross Stonefeld

[LB]

It looks like Trulli punctured on debris from the accident. Can I just mention San Marino 1994 and the lessons that obviously were not learnt.

[MrAerodynamicist]

but then spectators where also injured at a startline crash at Imola '94. There is no right and wrong answer to safety car vs red flag, and anyone who claims one or the other is definately right/wrong is talking about their rear oriface. After all, the start is traditionally the most dangerous time and we could quite easily be talking now about "why did they red flag the race?" after so and so got injured in another crash.

They made their choice, nobody got injured due to it therefore it was a perfectly acceptable decision. Okay so your favourite driver might have gone out and I had to sid though a frankly dull race, but thats life.

[Bex37]

Originally posted by HP
I guess most that believe that FIA favours Ferrari and MS will conviently forget about that one.

My feeling was that it was unusual that a red flag was not given. But they managed the race safely, which is the only reason for giving a red flag. A red flag is not given so that drivers that crashed can restart. Can't see a problem with it after seeing how it was managed.

[JayWay]

I think it's better to be safer than sorry.

The issue of cars blocking the track is not what should be considered as obviously they had that taken care of. It would take some very irresponsible decision making to allow a race to go on like that. The issue is track debris. With half the field knocked out is the (atleast) commercial justification there to stop the race to insure that the marshalls can clear the track properly without the pressure of 10 cars baring down on them. When the race was green flagged I was suspicious of track debris, and I do think I remember a driver having a problem with that.

[unrepentant lurker]

The risk of an accident is the same on a restart as it is on the first start. If the risk is too great, they shouldn't be doing it at all - not once, not twice, not 680 times.

If it looks like the safety car is going to be out for more than two laps, they ought to stop the race. A lot of workers are exposed for an extended period of time. As DC showed, its possible to have problems - even behind the safety car. Not to mention the still running cars driving over the wreckage, time and again. It just doesn't make sense. And, its a great opportunity for a commercial break - what better reason do you need?

[miniman]

The reason it wasn't stopped had nothing to do with MS, rather, both Minardis (Australian team) were still running and as it turns out it was their best shot at the points.

Blaming it on Ferrari and MS is pretty pathetic.

[Draco]

In the Australian telecast, it was stated not long after the accident that Charlie Whiting had made it clear at the drivers' briefing that races would not be stopped simply because of first corner incidents, apparently with the aim of encouraging drivers to be more careful. I guess we'll see if it had that effect next race...

[HP]

Originally posted by Draco
In the Australian telecast, it was stated not long after the accident that Charlie Whiting had made it clear at the drivers' briefing that races would not be stopped simply because of first corner incidents, apparently with the aim of encouraging drivers to be more careful. I guess we'll see if it had that effect next race...

But what can you do against drivers that seem not to think clearly after the race has started.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Draco
In the Australian telecast, it was stated not long after the accident that Charlie Whiting had made it clear at the drivers' briefing that races would not be stopped simply because of first corner incidents, apparently with the aim of encouraging drivers to be more careful. I guess we'll see if it had that effect next race...

A more effective measure would be the threat of probation or suspension in my view.

[Daniel Lester]

It's a tough call. Do you give the drivers that stuffed it up a second chance and punish those who managed to keep it clean, or do punish those who stuffed it up and punish those who kept it clean. There are always going to be some drivers that aren't at fault either way and that's bad luck, it didn't affect the race for those still running as I thought JT suffered from TC problems.

I say punish the drivers who cause accidents. For example I'd impose a time penalty on the drivers at fault at the end of the race or at the next race if the race isn't red flagged. Racing incidents are acceptable but where the hell was Heidfeld going (see replay) it reminded me of Ralf in Canada 98 where he took the extreme inside line.

[Falcadore]

There is an accident at turn 1 ask the question.

Is anyone hurt? No

Is the track blocked? No

Will vehicle recovery impede the race if a safety car is sent out? No

Then is there ANY reason to show a red flag?

No

Does it really matter how many cars are in the sand? Red flagging the race and restarting the race simply advantages those who made the cardinal sin of being involved in an accident that damages your car. More than almost anything else it is the thing a racing driver strives to avoid most.

Jarno Trulli subsequently spun and clouted the wall. It's possible, even probable that this was caused from debris from the initial accident. But we do not know, and likely it never will be proven. The right rear corner of the Renault may have broken away for any number of reasons, to grab even the likeliest reason and champion it as reason to bash the local marshals is poor behavior, and possibly an act of denail as to who a person would have prefered or even thought should have happenned.

We do not live in the world of should. We live in the world of do.

The clark of course has around a minute to make the decision. Is anyone hurt? Is the track blocked? Can we clean up the mess? Good then lets go racing, send out the pace car and lets get it on.

To suggest otherwise I find offensive, and I strongly recommend those who want to blame officials for something they do not sufficiently understand, that they go to the nearest convient racing club and enquire about becoming a marshal, in order to better understand the rules by which racers live by.

[Daniel Lester]

Personally it made for a more interesting race, we saw a few unfamilar cars and drivers up the front in the TV spotlight. I think the safety car should be used more often. If people are complaining because there fav driver got knocked out then that's a bit lame (**** happens, get over it. It's only a race). The world championship is 17 races long to account for crashes, if it was only one race long then it wouldn't be fair.

[Jaybee]

I heard one of the ITV team say that Charlie Whiting (?) had told the drivers that he was not likely to stop the race after first bend collisions unless there was no alternative (injuries etc) I think that he is trying to disencourage neck-or-nothing driving at the start of the race by preventing use of the T-cars. Once thety all learn that then we should have fewer start and stop races. I too like a race where Minardi, Toyota and Jaguar have a shot at the points!

[fisichella_2001]

I think they should have stopped the race, but I may be a little biased considering the drivers I support were out at the first corner. The incident reminded me of Austria 2000, where Diniz came from behind and clouted Fisichella (this time it was Heidfeld). Also there the red flag wasn't shown. I think that the red flag is only shown if it absolutely needs to be, e.g. debris all over the track. However, the upside to using the safety car was the presence of the worst 3 teams all in the points!

[Jackdaw]

Originally posted by Jaybee
I heard one of the ITV team say that Charlie Whiting (?) had told the drivers that he was not likely to stop the race after first bend collisions unless there was no alternative (injuries etc) I think that he is trying to disencourage neck-or-nothing driving at the start of the race by preventing use of the T-cars.

Well, the fact these massive shunts keep happening race after race tells me that this is not enough. It looks like F1 drivers' mentality is closer to the crashes-be-damned, "rubbin's racin'" NASCAR thinking than most of us care to admit.

I think the FIA is going to have to start handing out suspensions for drivers causing crashes--Ralf, Rubens and Nick would all be gone for one or two races in this instance if I had my way--until everyone gets it through their skulls that clean starts are the way to go.

[Frederick]

I just got back from Melbourne and I am feeling depressed
actually feeling Ripped off, cheated and depressed....

I have just spent 2 weeks pay to go to the first race after a long off season,
begged the Boss for time off, Sweet talked the wife into letting me go.

Only to have some Anally Retentive Jobsworth with a rule book deprive me of the
show i expected to see

where the hell does he get off saying "there will be NO restarts after
first corner incidents".........F*** HIM!

I wanted to see if Rubens had the goods to beat Michael
I wanted to see if DC had to worry about Kimi
I wanted to see if Ralf had more than Monty
I wanted to see if McNish, Sato, Massa had the Minerals for F1
I wanted to see 22 cars RACING

Thats what i F*****g PAID FOR!

only to have some career bureaucrat decide i couldn't

and don't give me this **** about F1 being a sport and not a show.
of course its a show, that's what ALL sports are.

where does F1 think the money comes from?

why else do you think sponsors stump up Millions of bucks...so they can have their names
displayed for the entire show.

why do you think Fans like me shell-out significant sums...so they can be entertained

Other categories of Motorsport seem to bend over backwards to allow the participants to
actually participate.....so why does F1 do the exact opposite?
i'm not a fan of Arrows, but they are part of the show and i want to see them out there.

Anyway that's my spleen vented, I've sent a copy of this to the Oz GP organisers
and posted it on this BB.....I don't suppose anyone has an E-mail address for the FIA??

frederick

[Oho]

Originally posted by Falcadore
There is an accident at turn 1 ask the question.

Is anyone hurt? No

Is the track blocked? No

Will vehicle recovery impede the race if a safety car is sent out? No

Then is there ANY reason to show a red flag?

No

Ave !!!

The race should have been red fallged on the same token Hockenheim was red flagged in 2001. The cars were forced to run through field of carbon fibre debris from the disintegrated cars and thus risked cutting their tyres big time.

- Oho -

[Daniel Lester]

I think you'll find DC fell off by himself, nothing anyone could do about it.

[Williams]

Originally posted by Daniel Lester
I think you'll find DC fell off by himself, nothing anyone could do about it.

Though I wouldn't put a bone-headed move past David it's also possible that he fell off due to a misbehaving gearbox.

[Daniel Lester]

That's what I meant, wasn't his fault as such but no one could do anything about it. Not even the guys in the McLaren pit.

[Wolf]

I'm glad the race wasn't redflagged... Drivers are lucky enough to be able to crash and ram eachother without any serious injuries, but why would they be rewarded with a restart if they weren't clever/skillful enough to make it safely through the first corner. You crash, you're out. Or should teams provide them with rubber cars so they bounce off the walls and stuff?!?

[dick]

I agree, and feel bad for you Frederick. In it's own way F1 is just as much a show as Nascar and I can't believe they didn't stop the race. I would have loved to see Rubens beat Micheal or a least make life difficult for him. I really don't think he would have moved over for Micheal at the first race, and we were deprived of that.

[HP]

Originally posted by dick
I agree, and feel bad for you Frederick. In it's own way F1 is just as much a show as Nascar and I can't believe they didn't stop the race. I would have loved to see Rubens beat Micheal or a least make life difficult for him. I really don't think he would have moved over for Micheal at the first race, and we were deprived of that.

2 points here.
1) Rubens was one of the 2 involved in the accident causing all the havoc. Since we have seen similar things involving Rubens last year, I think we have seen once more part of his weakness. So IMO he showed again he isn't up to the task when presented with a good opportunity. He drove once more with his heart than with his head.

2) I know some people won't like that (me neither), but there is TV out, and the rule favours those behind a TV

[The Swerve]

More importantly, IMHO - why was a marshall allowed to run across the track to pick up Villeneuve's rear wing just under waved yellows?! Suicide! After last year I would have thought that it would have been a case of 'safety first'.

[Richard Jenkins]

What nonsense some of you are spouting.
Charlie Whiting is a professional, who would never allow anyone to be endangered & took the right decision - Falcadore explained the reasons why. If your driver was in that or there was no spectacle, tough titty, that's racing & 9 drivers had the bad luck or stupidity to get involved in it

Swerve - ACROSS the track? The wing was on the side - it is a clear viewpoint for all the drivers, again, no-one will endanger their lives voluntarily.

I don't think people should be lurking for issues that aren't there - lets just enjoy the result & move on - this kind of thing happends very rarely & I for one actually enjoyed a Grand Prix & the result for the first time in two years, all simply because a lot of cars were out.

As I said before, Falcadore's post is the end to any of the moaning queries.

Frederick, I can't see what your problem is. You got loads of action today, saw the biggest start-line crash for 9 years, saw a brilliant duel at the front & a sensational performance by a home-grown lad. Arrows were so bad they didn't even start the race & they started illegally. They were disqualified quite rightly. If you don't like crashes, then I suggest you watch motorcycling or some other sport - its pack & parcel of F1. You'll get no sympathy from me - if I'd been there I would have loved it - as I did watching on the TV

[MrAerodynamicist]

rewrite the rules book - no swapping to the spare car even if a race is red flagged!

[Booster]

I totally agree with Frederick. The race should have been stopped and drivers allowed to restart. I mean, half the bloody cars were out, debris all over the track.

And NO, my favorite drive ( JV ) wasn't involved and could continue, so don't tell me I'm whinning because I didn't get to see my favorite driver. We were deprived of a good race.

Richie Jenkins : You call THAT a good race ? I invited a friend over that is NOT a race fan and it was actually her first race. I told her prior to the race that F1 is so fun and exciting. Needless to say that I was kinda embarassed. Not sure she'll be a race fan after that kinda SHOW... Yeah, it is a SHOW and a sport.

Furthermore, the TV coverage sucked BIG time. We hardly saw pit stops... I mean, with only 8 drivers left, how hard can it be ? Camera on MS for AGES when some good battles were going on in the back.

I'm extremely disappointed about this first GP. Poor judgement from the officials and poor TV coverage. They managed to make that GP almost less exciting than Monaco... It's a good thing that MS and JPM gave us a few thrills... otherwise, that GP could have been taped and sold as a sleeping aid at your local drugstore !

My opinion :

Melbourne GP 2002 overall rating
TV coverage
MS and JPM show
Webber first points in first GP + TV Coverage at the end : Brilliant ( and lucky but hey... )
BAR incident : and simply embarassing

[ /frustration mode ]

Booster :

[molive]

Why the didn't stop: because MS got away cleanly.;)

[Booster]

Originally posted by molive
Why the didn't stop: because MS got away cleanly.;)

That came to my mind too...

[Booster]

Another thing.... In the free practices, how many times was the red flag out for little incidents ?

So when there's a pileup of cars in the area of the first corner, debris all over, it's safe huh ?

Yeah right....

[Pascal]

Originally posted by Falcadore
Then is there ANY reason to show a red flag?

No

I happen to disagree with you on that one...

Originally posted by Falcadore
To suggest otherwise I find offensive, and I strongly recommend those who want to blame officials for something they do not sufficiently understand, that they go to the nearest convient racing club and enquire about becoming a marshal, in order to better understand the rules by which racers live by.

And to make my point clearer, let me start by saying that I was a track marshal on the Monaco Grand Prix in the 80's, arguably at a time when rules were a bit different and the pace-car option not available.

In those days, people were obviously not as shy as they are today when it comes to stopping a race. It is perfectly understandable that nowadays the safety car allows the marshals more comfort for removing stranded cars on the track in case of a pile up, but I remain unconvinced this was the best option for this Grand-Prix. Like many people mentioned already, removing the cars is half the battle for the track workers. They also have to make sure that no debris, however small they are, can endanger the remaining cars. Furthermore, let's not forget that Button's car was on fire, and he could have been spraying oil all over the place too. So I doubt they can do that job in the most efficient way when roughly every two minutes they have to get out of the way for a bunch of F1 cars running in line behind the pace-car. Furthermore, besides the danger of puncture, drivers are confronted to another safety issue when running slowly for too long: dropping tyre pressure. A couple of laps behind the official Mercedes-AMG is fine, but more can quickly become dicey and that was one of my main concerns when I watched yesterday's race. So while I was sorry to see so many people out that early, their absence was not why the race should have been stopped, but rather to allow an appropriate level of safety for the remaining drivers.

Just my two cents...

[gledz]

> Why was that race not stopped?

Simple.

1) Michael Schumacher was still running
2) Lots of Schumacher's rivals were out
3) Webber (local driver) was up to 8th

And if anyone has any arguments about that then...

When Burti and Schumacher had a similar accident at Hockenheim last year the race was stopped. Today Michael Schumacher was not involved and the race was not stopped, despite the fact that at least three times as many cars were involved and many were blocking the track.

Falcadore wrote: Is the track blocked? No

Fisichella, Massa and McNish all clearly stopped on the track and on the racing line. I would say that three vehicles stopped on the racing line is a signifcant blockage, wouldn't you agree?

[molive]

They should adopt a rule that forces a red flag if more than 30% of the field is taken out in a single lap. It just hinders the show and makes us feel robbed.

[Boston Killer]

Originally posted by LB
Sorry but a major seven car pile up in turn one should be a race stoppage for me. 12 cars GP's are a joke.

No way FIA was going to stop the race-Michael went past the pile-up with no problems...anyone esle thinks MS is not going to win this year?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Red flags in testing/practice/quals are a totally different manner. You can afford to stop things and clean up, you cant in a race. Heck during testing (at almost every level) if you just pull your car off the side on the straight they'll probably red flag it.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Boston Killer


No way FIA was going to stop the race-Michael went past the pile-up with no problems...

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by molive
They should adopt a rule that forces a red flag if more than 30% of the field is taken out in a single lap. It just hinders the show and makes us feel robbed.

That would be total nonsense, and I imagine that a certain Italian team would oppose such a rule...
Besides what's next red flag the race and restart when it becomes boring?

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by gledz
> Why was that race not stopped?

Simple.

1) Michael Schumacher was still running
2) Lots of Schumacher's rivals were out
3) Webber (local driver) was up to 8th

And if anyone has any arguments about that then...

When Burti and Schumacher had a similar accident at Hockenheim last year the race was stopped. Today Michael Schumacher was not involved and the race was not stopped, despite the fact that at least three times as many cars were involved and many were blocking the track.

Burti and Schumacher had a nine car pile-up? IIRC you are only allowed to drive one car at the time
Or maybe the Hockenheim race was stopped because there was to much debris on the track? While this was a pretty clean situation.

[b]Falcadore wrote: Is the track blocked? No

Fisichella, Massa and McNish all clearly stopped on the track and on the racing line. I would say that three vehicles stopped on the racing line is a signifcant blockage, wouldn't you agree?

Maybe you should have watched the race, the grid (or what was left of it) had no problem going round the track while the cars where wheeled to the side. So the track was effectivly non-blocked.

[IMHO]

I agree with Daniel Lester that the FIA must start handing out punishment again for causing accidents rather than red-flagging every other race start the way it is going now. They are getting too frequent and with drivers expecting a red flag and no consequences they risk too much trying to win the race at first corner. It has been years since any race bans were handed out IIRC.

A tough line on boneheaded driving and a clear rule on moving over to block (I hought it was one move allowed, not three) will be tough at first, but will cut down on this kind of disappointment for the many fans not seeing their favorite racers racing . Today it should be Rubey the Swervey who should sit out a race or two. Looking at Ralf's on-board and the overhead shots on the replays, it is hard to blame him to try to find a line that wasn't blocked again and again by the Rube.

With all the different bernie cams and telemetry available, it should be easy to find the culprit. It is hard to imagine that any driver in the top teams would be banned for any races though. So what else is new in this corporate world were short-sightedness rules. Today so many of the sponsors lost airtime. And many of the racers didn't get to race for now fault of their own. For the race stewards to call the carnage at the first corner just a racing incident is way too soft a stance.

I think race bans are needed, even if it was Ralf that was found to be at fault after all the evidence was looked at. Heidfeld was just another victim trying to get around the best he could.

Apart from that, I still thought todays race exciting and we saw some good racing. But the regular TV feed was quite poor, so many of the passes and pitstops down the field were missed while we watched the top drivers go around.

[gledz]

Originally posted by Foxbat
Burti and Schumacher had a nine car pile-up?

Burti launched over the back of Michael Schumacher and the race was stopped. Ralf Schumacher launched over the back of Rubens Barrichello, everyone else piled up and the race wasn't stopped. That's the comparison. Next time you're in a discussion I'll write clearly and explain everything carefully.;).

Originally posted by Foxbat
Maybe you should have watched the race

I did. But thanks for the sarchasm anyway. We didn't see the cars pass the scene of the accident on lap 2 on the world feed (ITV version), as we were seeing a shot from the pitlane.

Originally posted by Foxbat
the grid (or what was left of it) had no problem going round the track while the cars where wheeled to the side

errr, one small point - they were behind a safety car and running under yellows!

Are you suggesting that it is okay for cars to pass accident scenes at racing speed when there are abandonded vehicles on the racing line and marshalls wheeling them to the side? Your point is unclear...

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by gledz

Burti launched over the back of Michael Schumacher and the race was stopped. Ralf Schumacher launched over the back of Rubens Barrichello, everyone else piled up and the race wasn't stopped. That's the comparison. Next time you're in a discussion I'll write clearly and explain everything carefully.;).

I didn't realize people wanted to red-flag the session because of the Ralf-Rubens accident... to refresh your memory the race was initially continued after the Burti-Schumi accident, only when it was found to be impossible to clear the track in time was the race stopped.

I did. But thanks for the sarchasm anyway.

You're welcome ;)

errr, one small point - they were behind a safety car and running under yellows!

Are you suggesting that it is okay for cars to pass accident scenes at racing speed when there are abandonded vehicles on the racing line and marshalls wheeling them to the side? Your point is unclear...

The cars could easily pass the scene behind the pace-car, while the marshalls cleared the scene so they could go back to racespeed. That's how it's supposed to work, otherwise what's the point of having a pacecar?