88 replies to this topic

[magnum]

Even Jordan seems to think Alesi had the stuff to be world champion - for those that don't know, Alesi turned down the drive at Williams that brought Mansell the most wins in one season EVER, to pursue the call from Maranello - and then he was summarily given the boot ... how the **** did the most talented driver of his generation land up driving for Prost ... sometimes there is no justice, and Alesi is proof-positive.

What I don't understand about Alesi is why he went to Prost in the first place - and why the hell do racing illiterates like Coulthard have the chance at being world champion - what could Alesi do in a top team? He could win it all - no doubt. Instead he drives the worst car on the grid. All very sad, and I can't help but blame Ferrari - they used him when they were down, but when the times got better, they sent him packing. From that day his career has been going down - until this, the final indignity for F1's greatest talent - driving a Prost.

[Peeko]

Alesi chose with his heart, not with his head. Ferrari were just coming off that season, just losing both titles when Alesi joined. Who was to know they were going downhill? After all, they had Prost. Aaahhhh Jean Alesi. I still remember his first race at Paul Ricard. And those races in 1990; Pheonix, Monaco, Monza. I thought he was gold.

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Ron Dennis is a Wuss

[doohanOK]

Alesi has always been to unpredictable on the race track. He spent 5 odd years at Ferrari and won one race. One race. If he had the talent to be a world champion, more like the notion to get the richest team in F1 to build a better car like Schumacher, then maybe he'd be successful.

He's at the end of his career, and still struggling. I'd love to see him in say, a Ferrari, just to see now how good he really is, especially against Schumacher.

regards,
doohanOK.

[Todd]

Ferrari's fortunes rose partly because Jean Alesi left. He also wasted Benetton-Renaults and denied the fans what could have been 3 and 4 way battles between teams in 1996 and 1997. The only question is why he has a ride at all. He has raw talent, but doesn't have the mental component to exploit his skills.

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Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[magnum]

Todd Alesi is like the proverbial and oft-written about artist - he needs someone else to do the donkey work - stick him in a fast car and he'll perform. He just doesn't have the ability to focus the team around him. Benetton was a mistake for two reasons - 1) Briatore, and 2) Schumacher. The team was team Schumacher - a nice guy like Alesi could never come in and take over. And Berger surely did not help. Funny how Prost has screwed his career over twice and Alesi still doesn't see it ...

[This message has been edited by magnum (edited 04-19-2000).]

[Todd]

magnum,

Ferrari now has the people that Alesi drove out of Benetto, so it would do him no good to go there. Williams is a pressure cooker that would have seen Alesi in tears after every one of his multitudinous gaffes and that only leaves McLaren as a better team that he hasn't driven for. I don't know how he would fair with Dennis, although Ron has had way too much patience with Cubehead. Maybe Alesi could have produced a title shot for McLaren, but really great drivers know how to "do the donkey work" too. In my opinion, Alesi had opportunities to achieve far more than he did. His Byrne Benetton Renaults and the '95 V12 Ferrari were far better cars than he showed. Alex Wurz looked like a hero in 1997 because Alesi and Berger had set the bar so low. At least a few drivers could have been very competitive in those cars.

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Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[Linus27]

Todd

Your a funny man, you should write a column and call it, I have no idea about Alesi when he was at Ferrari and Benetton.

Alesi is a fantastic driver still and is one of the only drivers left who will have ago at overtaking. Unlike, oh there is a car behind me, I think I will leave the door wide open Frentzen, or I can't overtake that backmarker Coulthard or I am to slow to overtake Rubens. Alesi joining Ferrari was a massive mistake and has cost him his career. He had some good results at Benetton with a pole, lots of podiums and was leading the odd GP until the car broke. He is a cross between a few drivers. Aggressive and a good racer like Senna or Hunt, fantastic in the wet like Schumacher, but unlucky like Herbert. I think the Prost was not that bad a move. He could have stayed at Sauber but chose not to. Maybe another bad choice by Alesi but I think things will turn around for Alesi and the Prost car. It seems fast. Starting from the pits at Australia he was cutting through the field until he spun trying to overtake (I can explain what overtaking is incase people have forgotten what it is as we do not see it much) and then worked his way back up until the Prost died. In Brazil he was up to 5th I think until the Prost died again so it seem its fast but unreliable. I cant remember what happened at Imola. Don't write Alesi of just yet. He does make some stupid decisions but he is still fast and a great racer and the problem is the car not Alesi.

[Em Gee]

I tend to agree with Magnum on this with regard to the 'artist' mentality.

Eddie Jordan's comments are on the mark, he needed nurturing that he never got.

I remember his drive a few years back (my memory fails me where it was) in absolute pouring rain, he stayed out on slicks while everyone else changed to rains. That was an amazing drive, eventually (it was inevitable) he spun, but it was tremendous nonetheless.

[magnum]

Todd, the fact of the matter remains that neither berger nor alesi were able to do anything with the Benetton - as for Alesi at ferrari, although he only won one race, he was very close on numerous ocassions and often ran wheel to wheel with the senna/mansell ... that Ferrari also had a tendency to break down way way too often. What is even sadder is that, last year, he was not given the drive for the injured Schumacher, ferrari instead giving it to Salo - some recompensation hey?

[614david]

Linus27, Alesi is an excellent driver, whose talent has never really been picked up on, and who, as you said, was ruined by Ferrari. He has never really had the oppurtunity to shine, and yet, he is a BIT like Jacques villeneuve for his aggression, it is his nature not to give an inch in a wheel to wheel battle, and had he had more oppurtunity and luck, he could very possibly have been World Champion.

P.S David Coulthard CAN overtake!!

[Todd]

Linus27,

Jean Alesi was in 9th place when he dropped out in Brazil.



You see the rest of his career through rose colored glasses too.

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Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 04-19-2000).]

[whiplash]

alesi was/is master of his own fortune and the fact remains he has only one win from a multitude of races.
as todd says he should've been in contention in the 96/97 benetton's. berger was also lacklustre, but look what he managed when he was really up for it - he blitzed everyone at hockenheim (97). alesi was consistent but never seemed a real threat.
he is fast and has amazing car control, but isn't a wdc package.

[RaggedEdge]

I have to agree with Todd, Alesi underperformed in the 1995 Ferrari and certainly in the 1996 Benetton. Mind you, he was not alone, since Berger was pretty average as well.

It is clearly unacceptable that he has scored only one win with his machinery. In 1996, he should have used the combination of Benetton chassis, Renault engine and Brawn tactics to do something special, even challenge for the championship but did not.

[Damop]

Jean Alesi is best known for spreading oil all over the racing line for incredible distance when his engine blows.

[mono-posto]

Right now I am in the process of building a 1/43 model of Jean Alesi's Ferrari 412T2 that he used to win in Canada in 1995. It is my memorial to a driver that deserved many more wins than just that one.

Alas, I feel that day in Canada will be Alesi's ONLY carear win. But by no fault of his own.

[mtl'78]

Todd, what the hell is the point of you showing the lap chart? It just shows Alesi storming up through the field... It's really astounding how you can look at something that the world will see as blue, and call it red...

[magnum]

Yes mono-posto. And since berger also struggled with the benetton, as did all of schumacher's team-mates, I think the problem was Team Schumacher, not alesi/berger.

Alesi also has the distinction of having led 19 races in his career, only to win one. He has had numerous fastest laps, numerous poles and has finished in the top 4 in the championship numerous times. Not to mention having the biggest scraps against senna and mansell in the days when men were men ... the only driver more unlucky that Alesi was Amon ... and funnily enough, his career was also buggered up by Ferrari ...

[This message has been edited by magnum (edited 04-19-2000).]

[RaggedEdge]

Magnum,

Team Schumacher legacy might be part of why Alesi/Berger did badly in 1996-97, but surely they still had most of the ingredients to do very well, at least in 1996.

One point though, Alesi has scored a lot of points and has now raced I believe something like 170 races, so it is not all bad. Nevertheless, he has had pretty much as good luck as Berger in getting into excellent teams, so he cannot really complain about harsh life.

[Todd]

mtl'78,

Read Linus27's post. He said he thought Alesi was in 5th. 5th and 9th are two very different positions to be in. I doubt "the rest of the world sees" what I see as 9th place to be 5th place, but even if it does, I'll gladly be in the minority that can read a chart.

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Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[BuzzingHornet]

Todd, you are now saying that the drivers were under-performing at Benetton in 1996..? How does that square up with you saying that Damon Hill was useless but only won because he had the best car by miles? You can't have it both ways

I actually agree with regarding Alesi and Berger up to a point, they could have won some races that year if they were really any good... many people were tipping Alesi for the 1996 title before the season started. they made Schumacher look really really good

[magnum]

Ragged edge, i must disagree - Berger was in the all conquering McLarens - alesi was stuck with the heritage of past champions - prost and schumacher. The benetton of 97-98 was nowehere near the pace - the only good competive car he ever had was the 95 ferrari - unfortunately for him it broke down more often than not. And in any event, by that time his relations with Ferrari were already strained.
Nigel Roebuck noted that there was not a dry eye in the house when Jean won (inevitably, no?) the Canadian GP - and I couldn't agree more.

[BuzzingHornet]

The 1997 Benetton was pretty much on the pace I reckon; Berger was finished and couldn't do it anymore, particularly in qualifying, Alesi was just happy to beat Berger as per usual, (which was now an easy job) so when Wurz came in he kicked Alesi's ass instantly. Alesi is good but he needs competition; that s why I reckon he'd be a better bet in the 2nd Ferrari than Barrichello, who seems just happy to be there. The way he has just been constantly propping up the top 4 suggests that he's not going to make much impact this year, whereas Alesi would monster the car round until he was as fast as his teammate, or destroy it trying

[mtl'78]

9th in a Prost is like 5th in a Minardi and Lapping the field in a Ferrari! I CAN READ! Linus27 was wrong, but you put up a chart showing JA passing someone every other lap and use this chart as part of your crap about how he sucks?????? That's how you are able to see the sun set in the EAST my friend.

[magnum]

Buzzing Hornet, I'm not too sure about Wurz kicking alesi's ass - seems Alesi outqualified him 2 times out of 3 and outraced him in every race. And we're talking about (1) Briatore's golden boy and (2) Alesi not even talking to Briatore at that stage. No, Wurz did not come anywhere close to kicking alesi's ass - symbolically or factually.

[This message has been edited by magnum (edited 04-19-2000).]

[This message has been edited by magnum (edited 04-19-2000).]

[Williams]

Magnum, just to take issue with what you said about Ferrari "sending Alesi packing". Alesi was offered the seat alongside Schumacher, but he declined, for some reason, and decided to seek his fortune with Berger at Bennetton. Alesi made his own decision.

Good topic, BTW.

[This message has been edited by Williams (edited 04-19-2000).]

[BuzzingHornet]

Maybe kicking his ass was a slight exaggeration but he instantly outqualified him, and ran him very close in races, Alesi had to wake up or it could have been embarassing... Wurz was a rookie and shouldn't have been able to get that close.

Thats what I mean about Alesi though, he gauges his own effort by that of his team mate; he is just happy to be equal or faster than the other guy. Thats why I reckon that Ferrari should have got him to partner Schumacher

[BuzzingHornet]

Williams, Alesi was the first out of the door if I remember it right. Berger was offered the Ferrari seat, but chose to be number 1A to Alesi at Benetton... Alesi signed for Benetton before Berger

[magnum]

Hornet, again, Wurz was nowhere close to Alesi - and he was also test-driver for Benetton, so it's not as if he was pciked from the austrian countryside and thrown into F1 (as Button was). But you are correct in terms of Alesi's mind - he would and could still push anyone in F1. So far he has, to use your terms, kicked Heidfeld's ass - and I expect that to continue until Alesi gets sick and tired of Prost's shoddy car and starts to get irratated.

And btw, if i recall correctly, Alesi was asked to leave Ferrari - and despite he and Schumacher being the best of chums, I still feel the German has something to do with Alesi's dismissal. Alesi was very close to the tifosi and the team - it would have been much more difficult for Schumacher to wrap the team about him with Alesi there. As for me, I still think Alesi was the only "real" ferrari driver since Mansell.

[This message has been edited by magnum (edited 04-19-2000).]

[Todd]

Williams,

I believe it was another way around. Alesi was shown the door or traded for Schumacher, depending on you attitude about him. Berger chose to follow him to Benetton rather than be compared to Schumacher. That is the way I remember it anyway.

magnum,

Why do you think Wurz was a favorite of Briatore? Flavio made a fool of himself pumping up Alesi and Berger over Schumacher to anyone who would listen. Briatore may have soured on Jean, understandably, but Alesi was treated as an incoming hero by the team. Until he rapidly proved otherwise.

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Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[magnum]

Todd, the "understandable" souring of relations between Alesi and Briatore was, according to Berger, Alesi and most folk in the paddock, a disgraceful use of friendship by Briatore. As for Berger, he was smart enough to understand (as Rubens is finding out) that Schumacher allows no equality in his teams - a good decision to go to Benetton, although he was struck with Schumacher's remains there as well.

And it is also a very well known fact that Briatore and Wurz are on extremely good terms - in fact Briatore maintains to this day that Wurz is the best car developer in the business.

[This message has been edited by magnum (edited 04-19-2000).]

[Todd]

magnum,

By "real Ferrari driver" you seem to mean someone who can not challenge for a title for Ferrari. Prost and Schumacher are the drivers who've kept Ferrari from becoming a sideshow in F1. Mansell was one of my favorites, but he couldn't really make Ferrari a serious threat to McLaren.

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Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[magnum]

Todd, Mansell won on his debut with ferrari, something that your mate Schumacher could not - and before Prost came in, Mansell was bringing that Ferrari to a championship winning car - Prost, once he came into Ferrari, basically took over and forced Mansell into a side-show. But don't forget that Mansell brought that car to the level to which Prost could challenge for the Championship.

And your comment about ferrari becoming a side-whow is totally wrong - Ferrari, even when it didn't qualify for races, was still ferrari for the tifosi. Ferrari does not need to win to be Ferrari - it just needs to show up. And not even qualify, as Alboreto so eloquently proved.

[This message has been edited by magnum (edited 04-19-2000).]

[Peeko]

Magnum that's not fair. If Schumacher's car would have lasted the race, and Hill punted off at the first corner, while JV was stuck without a clutch (one was needed back in '89) I'm sure MS would have won on his debut. Anyone who knows what was going on at Ferrari that year knows that 1st win was an absolute fluke. Mansell is no Prost. Mansell couldn't develop a car worth sh*t. He just drove the freaking wheels off of it.

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Ron Dennis is a Wuss

[magnum]

Peeko I was merely answering Todd's suggestion that Mansell could not bring Ferrari to be competitive. The fact is, he won on his debut (the Ferrari the year before he came was a piece of sgo-**** so he must have done something) which proves he knew very well how to make a car a winner. Schumacher's talents at developing a car, as I said in another thread (quoting Barnard) was no better than a host of other quality drivers.

[Peeko]

I think you might have the years confused. The car before Mansell's arrival was turbo charged(F1/88). The F1/89 was a brand new car. What stopped the Ferrari's from being competitive in 88 was the fuel consumption. It sucked. That Mansell lasted the distance, nevermind winning, was a fluke in itself, since the car had a hard time completing 5 laps all weekend.

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Ron Dennis is a Wuss

[Duane]

Magnum,
Sorry man, but it was Berger who developed the Ferrari during both his stints with the team. Alboreto, Mansell and Alesi all had inferior testing abilities to Berger - that was Berger's main strength. Mansell could hardly keep the semi-auto on the road during pre-season testing and would have been run very close (I believe actually would have been beaten) by Berger had Gerhard not endured that crash at Imola - that crash changed him forever...

[magnum]

Peeko that was my point - Mansell's arrival co-incided with Ferrari's return to form. I choose to think he had something to do with it. And I further choose to believe that his debut win had more to do with sheer determination than luck - because Mansell was many things, but lucky was not one of them.

[magnum]

Duane the Berger years with Alesi were not terribly successful - and his years with Benetton were equally not successful. Yes there were extenuating circumstances to both spells, but Berger was not the reason for Mansell's success at Ferrari.

[This message has been edited by magnum (edited 04-19-2000).]

[Peeko]

I would hadly call the 89 season a return to form (Berger only finished 3 races, Mansell 6?). What the F1/89 had going for it was it was a great chassis. This was proven in races where horsepower wasn't as important as a good chassis (Hungary, Portugal). 1990, was a return to form season.

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Ron Dennis is a Wuss

[Todd]

Barnyard was a washed up hack by the time schumacher came to Ferrari. He had a hand in some Benettons, but they weren't exactly of Byrne quality either. That John would try to push the blame for his shitty F310 and F310B only shows that he was a sorry human being as well as a sorry designer by 1996. Need proof of the latter? Why did he put an airbox on the F310 that was obstructed by the driver's helmet? Why did he miss so badly on the car's airodynamic balance that grafting a high nose onto it improved it's handling and lap times? Why didn't he anticipate the increased vibration of a V10 over the V12s? All those transmission and drive shaft failures come down to Barnard forgetting what every production engineer knows: inline 6s and V12s are capable of perfectly balanced firing orders, other engine configurations are not, and V10s are about the worst. That is why his silly ideas all shook to pieces. His '97 F310B was in may ways even worse. He just tried to build a Byrne Benetton look-alike without understanding the concepts involved. I guess he just assumed that if a high nose helped his F310, copying the look of everything else would make an even better car. And then he tries to blame it on the most determined tester and developer in F1 history. What a dirty ****.

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Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[magnum]

Todd the reasons for Barnard's problems at Ferrari had nothing to do with him being out of touch with design - it was a political disaster which, working from england, Barnard could do nothing about. And don't forget that his titanium gearbox on the 96 ferrari was the first of its kind, and is still used today by most teams. Labelling him a **** is typical of a schumacher acolyte.

[BuzzingHornet]

I thought the 1997 Ferrari was more like the 1996 Williams, except it was done in painting-by-numbers stylee; he didn't really seem to know what he was doing and it didn't quite look right, especially agains the FW-19 which was sleek as hell. Ferrari had obviously said 'build us a Williams' ;)

Why are all Barnard cars so complicated, with bits sticking out all over the place?? don't tell me he really wanted it like that

[magnum]

Hornet u seem to forget Barnard's pedigree.

[Todd]

Buzzing,

Patrick Head admitted that it was no coincidence that the FW19 looked like the B195. The difference was that Adrian Newey and Patrick Head could understand why they were copying what. I really liked your "painting by numbers" analogy, though.

magnum,

I'm well versed in Barnard's pedigree. His Chaparral 2K and the F1-90, not to mention his contribution to carbon-fiber monocoque development, spring to mind. The fact remains that he had lost the scent by the time he worked with Michael Schumacher at Ferrari. He enjoyed innovating details like the gearbox, but F1 was already a game to be won by the best rules interpreter and overall airodynamic conceptual genius. The best gearbox in the world won't win an F1 race if it is in the back of a poorly balanced car that chews up its tires with ineffective suspensions and needs too much wing to produce any downforce. Barnard also didn't help Ferrari by insisting on his island home. He should have handed main concept ownership over to a promising newcomer and focused on managerial leadership plus innovating new solutions to the component details he loved so much.

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Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[Peeko]

I thought Steve Nichols designed the 641(F1-90)? Or do you meen the B190 for Benetton?

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Ron Dennis is a Wuss

[Todd]

Peeko,

Boy do I feel like a tool if I'm wrong, but I could have sworn that Barnard designed the F1-90(641) before he left at the start of the season. Does anyone else know? I'm sure Barnard gets credit for it in a lot of places.

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Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[Peeko]

Well, the car design wasn't that different between the 640 and the 641. Except for a few rounder edges, and a bigger airbox, I couldn't see much difference between the 2 cars. I know Barnard did design the B190, but they didn't get it until San Marino (3rd race, which may be becasuse of his late departure from Ferrari, and late arrival at Benetton. I don't know). But I think Steve Nichols 'refined' the 640 into the 641.

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Ron Dennis is a Wuss

[This message has been edited by Peeko (edited 04-19-2000).]

[AlesiGOD]

Guess my opinion?



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[AlesiGOD]

Damn smilie ****! : P

[Red27]

Magnum
I entirely agree with your post and subsequent comments from you and true supporters like Linus27. Of course we also have the usual bigots who look at a bald statistic like one win in Ferrari, without taking into account all the breakdowns while in the lead. Still at least it keeps this thread alive!

Looking at last year, I was really disappointed that Jean didn't get the substitute drive with a prospect of a contract for 2000 too. I was following the F1 news on the internet after the crash and lots of reliable sources in Italy and Germany had Alesi going on loan from Sauber which made sense because of the engine deal. A few days later there was denial and the suggestion that only Salo was ever in consideration.

More important Jean was one of several drivers on whom Ferrari had taken out an option for 2000. Schumacher had said several times that he would like Jean to be his team mate. Then they go and hire Barrichello! Don't get me wrong I like Rubens and followed his time at Stewart with interest. But the idea that he could act as a foil to Schumacher better than Alesi is just ridiculous. Even though this year's car is heaps better than any Ferrari Jean had, I bet that Barrichello won't win one race this year. Jean on the other hand still has both the burning ambition and the skills to give Schumacher a run for his money in a Ferrari. But Jean Todt would never allow that.

I said on a post about tifosi attitudes, that I felt that Ferrari really owed Jean a couple of years in a good car to even up the crap they gave him (both as machines and treatment) in the early 90s. But then perhaps we shouldn't be romantic about Ferrari, apparently Fangio hated them and did his last champioship year with Maserati. If, as seems likely, Jean retire without getting another chance, my attiude to Ferrari will be very soured. I don't think I'll be alone in that.