27 replies to this topic

[tonicco]

I just read in Marcel Schot's article "Australian GP: Facts, Stats and Memoirs ", that in 1966 "Reg Parnell Racing entered a Ferrari 246 from 1958 in several Grands Prix ", making it the "the oldest car used in a World Championship Grand Prix ".

All I ask is: why use such an old car?

Thanks in advance

[Doug Nye]

Total nonsense -

Try Parnell earned good money from the race organisers at Monza to surrender his entry in order that rightly favoured Italian driver could squeze under the barrier in Ferrari's 246T Tasman car as driven by Bandini at Monaco '66 and later by Scarfiotti at the Nurburgring etc. The engine might have been developed - stratospherically - from a basic 1957-58 design, but the 'Aero' monocoque chassis was not.

DCN

[Allen Brown]

tonicco

Doug's completely right. The chassis was a 1964 158 but had been fitted with a 2.4-litre V6 for John Surtees' attempt on Tasman at the beginning of 1966. This car was called the "246T" - 2.4-litre 6-cyl Tasman car. Surtees was injured (Lola T70?? Mosport??) and the car wasn't used until the start of the F1 season where it proved very effective, at least until more of the new V12s were ready.

The full race history is here.

Allen

[bobbo]

Allen:

Great site, great info!! Could you possibly to point us to some photos of ther 246T/66, if possible??

Thanks!

BTW, I JUST discovered Vintage Racecar Journal and the current (March 2002) issue has a very nice article on the 1964 Tasman Series as wellas a test drive ( ) of the rear-enginee Vanwall VW14.

Bobbo

[David McKinney]

Not a lot of people know this, but:
Late in 1966 multiple New Zealand champion Jim Palmer flew to Italy to finalise plans to race the car in the 1967 Tasman series. He tested it and all was set - presumably for a lease deal - when someone realised that a conflict of fuel contracts meant it couldn't happen.

[McRonalds]

Originally posted by bobbo
Could you possibly to point us to some photos of ther 246T/66, if possible??

Just a small photo - but it's the 'Parnell-Ferrari' at Monza '66. In fact I believe it was a works-entry. The car (as far as I remember) went really well and was 'in the points' but had to retire.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Total nonsense -

Try Parnell earned good money from the race organisers at Monza to surrender his entry in order that rightly favoured Italian driver could squeze under the barrier in Ferrari's 246T Tasman car as driven by Bandini at Monaco '66 and later by Scarfiotti at the Nurburgring etc. The engine might have been developed - stratospherically - from a basic 1957-58 design, but the 'Aero' monocoque chassis was not.

DCN

I thought that Baghetti was entered in Parnell's Lotus but broke the gearbox. It was Ferrari lending a car rather than PArnell surrendering an entry.

[Doug Nye]

There are many many ways in which a gearbox can 'break'

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by bobbo
BTW, I JUST discovered Vintage Racecar Journal and the current (March 2002) issue has a very nice article on the 1964 Tasman Series ....

Tell me more... much about Matich in there?

Further information posted by David McKinney
....Late in 1966 multiple New Zealand champion Jim Palmer flew to Italy to finalise plans to race the car in the 1967 Tasman series. He tested it and all was set - presumably for a lease deal - when someone realised that a conflict of fuel contracts meant it couldn't happen.

I have a notion this was spoken of at the time... was David McKay involved? What oil company conflict, anyway... Jim drove for David that year, Scuderia Veloce was with Shell...

[bobbo]

Ray Bell:

Sorry, only about a dozen or so lines about Frank Matich.

Bobbo

[David McKinney]

Ray:
I wasn't more specific when I posted because I wasn't sure of the details - am still not. I think the Palmers had a BP service station and - unlike in the UK - Shell and BP were deadly rivals in NZ. I guess it's one thing to endorse the rival product in Oz, and another to do it at home in NZ. The bit that worries me about this explanation is that I'm sure Palmer raced on Shell for at least part of his career. Milan? Can you help?
Maybe Sir Malcolm was involved with the deal.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by bobbo
Ray Bell:

Sorry, only about a dozen or so lines about Frank Matich.

Any chance of e.mailing me scans of the story? raybell@ramojan.com

Recall, David, that Jim Palmer drove for David after Spencer defected, was that maybe '65 rather than '66? ... he also drove for Bob Jane, which was totally Shell, so that was '68 after John Harvey got some skin rash. Both races were at the Farm.

I think you're right too, about him driving for Shell, I feel sure he featured in Shell full-page ads in magazines, perhaps Modern Motor?

[nick stone]

Where's Barry Lake when you need him?

[Milan Fistonic]

The Bowmaker team were backed by Shell and Palmer drove one of their cars in 1963 with Shell decals displayed. In 1963 he went to Australia four times to race for David McKay's Suderia Veloce.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by nick stone
Where's ***** **** when you need him?

He says my memory's better...

I do remember him driving the second string SV car after Chris Amon went to England, though my memory needed Milan's jogging... and it was surely 1966 that Palmer drove the SV Brabham for David before being denied an Australian licence because of his monocular vision. With no Australian licence, he couldn't score points in the Gold Star, so the drive was a solo effort.

But for the life of me I can't find the race reports to back that up... I recall it was a fairly lacklustre performance at the Farm that netted a second or third place...

Milan? David?

[Milan Fistonic]

I've found a full page advert for Shell featuring Jim Palmer working on his Brabham. It's on the back cover of the August 1967 edition of Motorman. I'll e-mail it to you Ray.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Milan Fistonic
I've found a full page advert for Shell featuring Jim Palmer working on his Brabham. It's on the back cover of the August 1967 edition of Motorman.

Looks all right in your post, Milan... why e.mail it?

The one in Australia was different to that, I feel quite sure. Though I may be wrong...

How about that Warwick Farm drive in the SV Brabham?

[David McKinney]

I did say my memory was hazy on the failed Palmer/Ferrari deal. I'm sure it wasn't reported at the time: I first heard about it from Jim himself about ten years later. My memory is that it was conflicting fuel contracts that stymied the deal. Maybe it was something else.
(The notes I made after that conservation, together with the bulk of my library, are at present on the high seas between NZ and the UK)

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
....(The notes I made after that conversation, together with the bulk of my library, are at present on the high seas between NZ and the UK)

Ahahh... soon we'll be able to benefit from all those answers you've been unable to give us these past many months!

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by David McKinney
The notes I made after that conservation, together with the bulk of my library, are at present on the high seas between NZ and the UK

[Marcor]

In Sport Auto December 1966 (news in brief column) :
Chris Amon had signed a contract with Ferrari. He will drive in F1 and prototypes. One of his compatriot Jim Palmer was recently tested by Ferrari. He might join the Italian team.

[Milan Fistonic]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David McKinney
Not a lot of people know this, but:
Late in 1966 multiple New Zealand champion Jim Palmer flew to Italy to finalise plans to race the car in the 1967 Tasman series. He tested it and all was set - presumably for a lease deal - when someone realised that a conflict of fuel contracts meant it couldn't happen

Ray:
I wasn't more specific when I posted because I wasn't sure of the details - am still not. I think the Palmers had a BP service station and - unlike in the UK - Shell and BP were deadly rivals in NZ. I guess it's one thing to endorse the rival product in Oz, and another to do it at home in NZ. The bit that worries me about this explanation is that I'm sure Palmer raced on Shell for at least part of his career. Milan? Can you help?
Maybe Sir Malcolm was involved with the deal. Ray: [QUOTE]


I was in Hamilton yesterday for a book auction (my library has now grown by four books), a visit to the National Motor Show (so-so) and a book launch (Mazda Rotary Down Under - the story of the Mazda rotary engined cars in competition).

While in that city I took the opportunity of calling on Jim Palmer to ask him about the Ferrari test. He confirmed that he did indeed go to Italy where he tested the Ferrari at Modena. The deal had been arranged by Shell New Zealand and would have seen the car, two engines and a mechanic come to New Zealand for the Tasman Series. The Palmers would have to have paid the mechanics wages for the time he was in this country and the car had to be returned at the end of the season. I asked if David McKay was in any way involved in setting up the deal but Jim said he wasn't. He was a little unsure as to why the deal did not go ahead except to say that someone high up in Shell GB vetoed the deal.

As to the clash of petrol companies, that was not an issue at all. Palmers was always a Shell service station and Jim still uses their products in his car sales business. The service station changed to BP when George Palmer sold it to BP ten or twelve years ago. Shell were negotiating to buy the place but were taking a long time over the decision so when BP came along with a better offer George took their money.

When the Ferrari deal came to nought the Palmers bought the one-off Brabham BT22. Later Jack Brabham wanted the car for Denny Hulme to use in the Tasman Series. He was going to fit a Repco V8 to the car and it would have been returned to the Palmers with that engine fitted. That deal didn't go ahead either and Jim raced the car with a Climax FPF engine.

Jim doesn't have any photos of himself driving the Ferrari at Modena. His Mother and Father were with him in Italy but his Mother had forgotten to put a film in her camera. He believes that someone from Shell did take some shots but he never saw them. He didn't meet Enzo Ferrari though he was at the track while Jim was testing the car.

[Ray Bell]

The BT22.... that was the dark blue car with the pale blue strip in the Brabham pattern?

I'd be surprised if there wasn't some McKay involvement... he'd driven for David that year, IIRC, and David was in thick with Maranello with the 250LM and always angling for a Fazzaz to come out for the Tasman. Maybe even behind the scenes?

And what did he say when you suggested he start posting on TNF?

[Allen Brown]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Milan Fistonic
[QUOTE][i]When the Ferrari deal came to nought the Palmers bought the one-off Brabham BT22. Later Jack Brabham wanted the car for Denny Hulme to use in the Tasman Series. He was going to fit a Repco V8 to the car and it would have been returned to the Palmers with that engine fitted. That deal didn't go ahead either and Jim raced the car with a Climax FPF engine.[/QUOTE]Milan

Did this come from Palmer? The BT22 that he had was the ex-Powrie libre car, allegedly built originally for Moser but never delivered. Two more BT22-spec cars were built, both using the chassis plates from 1964 works F1 BT11s. One of these went to South Africa for Charlton and the other was used by Hulme in the early 1966 GPs until his BT20 was ready. The "BT22" that Hulme drove in the 1967 Tasman was his ex-GP car.

Allen

[David McKinney]

There are too many Brabhams about this place
The dark blue/pale blue car Ray refers to was a BT7A, so is irrelevant to the BT22 discussion
I think when the Palmers got the ex-Powrie (red and yellow) BT22 it was described - in NZ at least - as being unique: new F1 Brabhams had Repco V8 engines by that time, and this had a Climax, so someone figured it must have been a one-off. Some of us later realised there were actually three BT22s.
The car Hulme drove in the 1967 Tasman (except in Round 1, but let's not confuse the issue further) was indeed his ex-F1 mount. If JP's story is correct, it looks as if this was a substitute when the Palmer deal didn't come off.

[Milan Fistonic]

Allen

Yes, the story did come from Palmer, except for the "one-off" bit which came from Vercoe's book with corroboration from Appendix C of Mike Lawrence's Tauranac book.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
The dark blue/pale blue car Ray refers to was a BT7A, so is irrelevant to the BT22 discussion

So remind me please, what colour was the later car?

I think when the Palmers got the ex-Powrie (red and yellow) BT22 it was described - in NZ at least - as being unique: new F1 Brabhams had Repco V8 engines by that time, and this had a Climax, so someone figured it must have been a one-off. Some of us later realised there were actually three BT22s.....

Repco's press releases of the time made a point of mentioning that the V8 engines could fit readily into cars designed for the FPF...

Nobody would consider that today...

[David McKinney]

Red and yellow