47 replies to this topic

[goodbuddy]

The other night on Speedvision I watched some rally
footage and could hear the voice of the co-driver. While
he seemed to be speaking English, I could hardly
understand anything he said - and he seemed to be
talking continuously. I understand he gives instructions
to the driver, but what is he saying ?

[zppd]

you know, i have the same question.

it seems to me the co driver is reading the map to the driver. i suspect he is telling him what the next few turns are like and if the road has any crests, dips, gravel, snow, etc.... i tried to follow the but it was very difficult.

appreciate if anyone knows more, i am starting to get into WRC, its very very exciting.

thanks

[MRC]

I too, have tried to figure out what those guys are saying. I could never figure out how far in advance down the course they were describing something, either. Anyone have any keywords to look out for?

[Hellenic tifosi]

The most exciting co-driver by far is Luis Moya, who sits next to Sainz. Although I don't understand a word, he speaks so fast that it sounds like music!

Anyway, as far as I know, the pace notes basically consist of the distance(in meters) until the next turn and it's angle. For example, if the co-driver says "70 6th left" then the driver knows that in 70 meters he will find a flat out left hander. In some cases the gear system is used and then the number in the notes corresponds to the appropriate gear for the corner. Finally, additional info is noted like jumps, crests, blind spots, watersplashes, "S" bends("4th left into 3rd right" where the word "into" suggests that the second turn is immediately after the first).

Feel free to correct me.

[MattPete]

Originally posted by Hellenic tifosi
The most exciting co-driver by far is Luis Moya, who sits next to Sainz. Although I don't understand a word, he speaks so fast that it sounds like music!

Anyway, as far as I know, the pace notes basically consist of the distance(in meters) until the next turn and it's angle. For example, if the co-driver says "70 6th left" then the driver knows that in 70 meters he will find a flat out left hander. In some cases the gear system is used and then the number in the notes corresponds to the appropriate gear for the corner. Finally, additional info is noted like jumps, crests, blind spots, watersplashes, "S" bends("4th left into 3rd right" where the word "into" suggests that the second turn is immediately after the first).

Feel free to correct me.

[keep in mind that my pacenote knowledge comes from Collin McRae Rally on Playstation, so don't take this as gospel]

From what i understand, the single digit numbers refer to the severity of the corner, and the larger numbers refer to the distance in meters. This is from the Playstation manual:


1 - gradual turn, more of straight that drifts a little
2 - still gradual
3 - not too bad
4 - a little tighter
5 - tighter still, but less than 90 degrees
square - roughly 90 degrees
hairpin - a bit more than 90 degres
tight hairpin - near 180 degrees

care - be careful
caution - be very careful, this corner is difficult
long - a long corner
don't cut - do not cut close on this corner. There is an obstacle.
Tightens - decreasing radius
Opens - increasing radius

Examples
------------
2 left - a fairly easy left turn

Long 3 left, tightens - a long medium turn left that gets tighter

Caution, 5 right, don't cut, logs - be very careful. A tight right turn. Don't cut the corner, and watch for a pile of logs.

[rek]

lookee here

http://www.drivingte...nu=43&PageID=36

[jimmy mike]

Every driver and his co-driver has their own pace notes language. Some drivers use quite understandable language like Colin McRae and his co-driver Nicky Grist. You can actually understand what notes mean. But if you're listening for example what Tommi Makinen's co-driver is telling Tommi, it's very hard to understand instructions even if you're Finnish. Tommi has these kind of short words to describe characteristics of upcoming corner like "kirraa" which means nothing in real world but obviously has meaning in his notes.

Last year's Australian Rally is good example of how difficult job co-driving actually is. Previous rally at Corsika last year Tommi's regular co-driver Risto Mannisenmaki got injured after that big shunt Tommi and Risto had. So in Australian rally Tommi had a new co-driver who simply couldn't do the job. I can't recall guy's name but he just coudn't tell all the information Tommi has in his notes in needed time. It is well known that Tommi's pace notes has lot of information, almost every rock on road has put on notes and co-driver has to give that information at right rhythm.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Matt, i think that in Colin Mcrae 2 the numbers are used in the other way, for example "6th" in the real pace notes means flat out. I remeber last year at the Monte Carlo rally when I was hearing Grist calling "6th left and 6th right" and then I saw some pretty easy turns ahead.

Great points Jimmy

[Oho]

Originally posted by Hellenic tifosi
Matt, i think that in Colin Mcrae 2 the numbers are used in the other way, for example "6th" in the real pace notes means flat out. I remeber last year at the Monte Carlo rally when I was hearing Grist calling "6th left and 6th right" and then I saw some pretty easy turns ahead.

Great points Jimmy

Ave !!

The number probably refers to gear in which the corner is to be taken.

- Oho -

[Hellenic tifosi]

Oho, as far as I know, the "gear methode" is now outdated and nobody is using it, as the gear depends very much on the situation of the road. For example, if the co-driver reads "4th left" and the road is wet, then the driver is lost, as the pace notes might have been written when the surface was dry.

[MattPete]

Originally posted by Hellenic tifosi
Matt, i think that in Colin Mcrae 2 the numbers are used in the other way, for example "6th" in the real pace notes means flat out. I remeber last year at the Monte Carlo rally when I was hearing Grist calling "6th left and 6th right" and then I saw some pretty easy turns ahead.

Great points Jimmy

Aftter typing this, in, i went downstairs and watched the last half of the Corsican Rally. IIRC, one of the English codrivers (not Grist, but maybe for Burns?) was using high numbers for tight turns and lower numbers for more gradual turns, which would suggest that they weren't using the gear method, but the severity method.

On the other hand, according to Rek's link above, there are no set rules. Some might still use the gear method, other use the severity method. Even then, some people use high numbers and some use low numbers for tight turns. From a fans perspective, it would be nice if they used a standard method, but I'm sure the driver's prefer their custom method.

BTW: it's a trip hearing Sainz's codriver delivering the pace-notes in staccato Spanish -- it makes everything seem faster!

hmmm....could you imagine Ward Burton delivering pace notes?

[Pioneer]

Originally posted by MattPete


hmmm....could you imagine Ward Burton delivering pace notes?

The rally would be over before Ward even got round to mentioning the first corner.

[Aubwi]

I understand the driver is the one who actually writes the pace notes. At the Cypress rally one of the drivers (Makkinen, I think?) simply forgot to write pace notes for a new section on a stage. His co-driver just camly closed his notebook with a stoic, resigned expression on his face.

Those co-drivers must be some tough S.O.B.'s. I can't imagine trying to read someone else's handwriting while the car is bouncing and sliding all over the place, plus trying to sync it up with the scenery that's whizzing by all the time, and always thinking 3 or 4 corners ahead. I'd barf all over those pace notes for sure!

[zppd]

Those co-drivers must be some tough S.O.B.'s. I can't imagine trying to read someone else's handwriting while the car is bouncing and sliding all over the place, plus trying to sync it up with the scenery that's whizzing by all the time, and always thinking 3 or 4 corners ahead. I'd barf all over those pace notes for sure!

agree! you think they eat before getting in the car??

what are some good Rally sites out there. i am new to rallying and wanting to know more. Thanks

[kober]

I've heard Nicky Grist even can't see out of the car, because his seat has been lowered to improve the CoG position...

[Hellenic tifosi]

Originally posted by Aubwi
I can't imagine trying to read someone else's handwriting

Well, in fact the drivers dicate the notes and the co-driver is the one who writes them down.

[Janzen]

Yes during the scouting runs the drivers and co-drivers drive through the course reasonably slow.
And the driver judges the corner and the co-driver writes down the notes. He will later write them clear and perhaps go over with the driver. In todays Rally they drive so fast that they really need to know the road ahead wich mean that a driver competeing for the first time on a course will have a hard time, and some other drivers know the course almost by heart. I am not very sure about how much they are allowed to use old notes to compare against new ones? On top of this they have a recce car that drives the stage before the start and helicopters to give the top teams crucial last minute info.

[BRG]

There are three main types of pace-notes.

The British method has traditionally been descriptive, so a section might read:-

fast left; 100 (yards) ; flat right; 150 ; K left (ie. about a 45 degree bend) : 200 : square left (ie 90 degree bend) into hairpin right....

This effectively use the actual angle of the bend, but can then be qualified by saying "tight" or "open" etc.

Most drivers from the European mainland use the number system where 1 = hairpin bend and 9 = flat-out (or vice versa, according to the individual's preference). So the above section might read:-

8 left : 100 (metres) ; 9 right; 150 ; 6 left ; 200 ; 4 left into 1 right...

The third method is by gears and I believe that McRae uses this. But he qulaifies the gear numebr with "plus" or "minus" for greater accuracy. So the above might read:-

5 left plus; 100 ; 6 right : 150 ; 4 left minus ; 200 ; 3 left minus into 1 right....

In all methods there are extra words to qualify the information a bit further - a common one in English is "maybe" as in "flat right maybe". This means that if it is a bit damp or muddy compared to the recce, that the corner might not be quite so fast and the driver needs to make a judgement on the spot. Then there are "cut" and " don't cut" meaning whether or not it is safe to take the shortest line through the corner.

It is all about what the driver likes. Most want to hear about the corner after next, so when the co-driver says "flat left", the next corner might actually be to the right, with the left hander coming after that. This allows the driver to get his line right - coming out of a right hander too hot might put him on the wrong side of the road for the left hander and lose him time.

I am struck by how little information Gronholm seems to want - his notes are very terse. Whereas Sainz has a torrent of words from Moya. Even allowing that Spanish (or is it Catalan?) is a more verbose langiuage than Finnish, there still seems to be far more data in Sainz's notes.

[silver]

Tommi Makinen has 15 different ways to describe a corner.

The guy who is substituding Risto Mannisenmaki as Makinen`s co-driver said that it was a bit difficult at firts since his usual driver (Tapio Laukkanen) has 10 different kind of corners and Makinen has 15.

[US-F1Fan]

I have just gotten into WRC in the last year or so and I find it totally amazing!! The speed, pace, and concentration of the drivers if incredible. My first love is F1, but rally drivers are right up there as far as car control and concentration.

I've been looking on the web, getting all the info I can, and watching the WRC coverage from Speed Channel here in the US. I do have a few questions for anyone whose is more well-versed in the world of WRC.

1. Can someone describe the timeline of a rally. I know about legs, stages, etc. But I've read about the time between stages when the drivers have to drive to the next stage. Sometimes the car can be serviced during this time and sometimes not? And the driver has to arrive before a certain time before the next "timed" stage.The TV coverage here tends to gloss over a lot of the 'behind the scenes" info. What is the TV coverage like in GB?

2. I've found a lot of technical info about the cars, but I have one questions that really bugs me:
When a car approches a turn, I can hear a very audible, cricket-like chirping noise. It is sort of
intermitant and doesn't seem to be braking related. Is it gears/clutch? Differential? I can't figure it out and I've never heard anyone talking about it.

[Frank R. Champs]

US-F1 fan,

I can't answer your first question, actually, I'm curious about the finer details myself.

But I can answer the second question. The chirping sound you hear comes from the turbocharger compressor when the driver closes the throttle. When the driver closes the throttle, the turbo slows down, meaning the compressor slows down too, losing pressure output. Now that the compressor is creating less pressure, there is nothing to keep the high pressure inside the intake manifold from rushing backwards through the compressor and venting to atmosphere. As the air rushes backwards through the compressor, it causes the compressor to stall, creating a chirping sound. It's a really neat sound.


Frank

[testarosa]

It's not the turbine slowing down, it's a valve to prevent the turbine from slowing down. Still sounds awesome. Without the blow-off valve, that high pressure air would cause massive lag and could even bend or snap the turbine shaft.

[Frank R. Champs]

Testarosa,

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. A blow off valve makes a whooshing sound, but the actual chirp comes from the compressor stalling. The sound may be audible through the blow off valve outlet when it happens, but the chirp can be heard on cars even without blowoff valves. By that reasoning, the blow off valve is not the actual source of the chirp.
Frank

[testarosa]

I think the engineers would go to quite a bit of trouble to avoid turbo lag, and the pressure differential from the sudden closing of the throttle butterfly is pretty easy to avoid.
But I've never heard that sound on a car w/o a blow off valve, so I'm no expert.

[Janzen]

Hi,

Can not say I know where the sound comes from. But I thought rally cars had ******** or delayed ignition to make a detonation in the exhasut to keep the turbo going. Also I have understood they have valves both on the intake side and wasteside of turbo, so that it can basically freewheel.
But Mr Champs might be right the sound might come from the turbo changing pace in these different conditions, but I do not think they would let it stall completely.

[andy_bee]

this is a good informative site from a Co-driver who ran with Justin Dale in last years Formula Rally Championship

http://www.andrewbargery.com/

[Fudman]

In regard to the turbo/engine noise, the sound on TV is nothing like the sound you hear watching these cars in action (just like F1). The anti-lag systems are very clever apparently. I've heard that some/all? teams inject fuel into the exhaust either before or after the turbo to minimuse turbo lag. Hence when they come off the thottle there is a series of VERY LOUD bangs as the injected fuel ignites, niiiice! Furthermore just like F1 they look much faster in real life.

When following Rally NZ couple of years back I was overtaken by McRae between special stages and he was still sideways though the corners and was out of sight, despite my best efforts, within half a mile!!!

[BRG]

Originally posted by Fudman
The anti-lag systems are very clever apparently. I've heard that some/all? teams inject fuel into the exhaust either before or after the turbo to minimuse turbo lag. Hence when they come off the thottle there is a series of VERY LOUD bangs as the injected fuel ignites

This used to be the case with the earlier anti-lag systems, which were very primitive. It has caused a lot of problems for rally venues in the UK with complaints about the noise, so that some events require anti-lag systems to be turned off .

But the latest systems, as used on WRCs are much quieter, with no explosions. If you watch the TV coverage, when there is a shot from behind a WRC, you can see up the exhaust pipe - there is often a red hot glow inside. This is because of the continual ignition of fuel to keep the turbine spinning.

[Pistone]

The chirping sound comes from the dump-valve. It's chirping rather than wooshing because of the design of the valve. WRC cars use piston type valves and a regular car uses a diaphragm (Spelling?) design which is held open by the difference in pressure over the throttle. The sound from the piston type comes from the piston bouncing between open and closed position.
The chirping sound can also be heard at the start when the cars is standing still and the driver is redlining the enging...

[silver]

If you want to see a truly awesome piece of rallying mpeg, check this out:

http://www.softlab.n...gr/~sivann/pub/

and from there choose Course de Pikes Peak (Ari Vatanen).mpeg

You can also find this this fantastic piece from other places in net...

[Rainer Nyberg]

IMHO the guys doing rallying are THE RIGHT STUFF.

Formula 1 is so easy these days that most drivers still wear diapers.

The don´t even compare. You just need a kid who has some Playstation experience and he will run a F1 as fast as anyone.

Rallying on slippery roads at 100MPH+ with trees or one-mile ditches beside you is another matter.

[lateralforce]

watabout 130R and eau rouge?

[Rainer Nyberg]

Not too exciting with todays cars...

Maybe if every GP would run in rain....?

[shoos]

I've just recently gotten into WRC also, courtesy of speedchannel (rip on them all you want, but their WRC coverage is just what a new guy like me needs to get to know the sport...). I think F1 and WRC offer different thrills, and they dovetail nicely. F1 pretty much represents the fastest you can go on a prepared track, while WRC is nearly the opposite -- that is, fastest you can go in the real world. both are enjoyable in my opinion and it doesn't seem right to compare, although it seems to me that the level of danger is comparable (just different ways to crash, really), and the concentration level needed is also similar (although MS watching the monitors while leading in melbourne might lead you to think otherwise). WRC certainly offers more viscerally visual thrills, though.

regarding pace notes, I noticed that some co-drivers use symbols instead of actual writing... makes sense, since you're bouncing around all the time. does anyone know if co-drivers are also drivers? I mean, it would make sense for a co-driver to have been a driver, and vice-versa...

[BRG]

Originally posted by shoos
does anyone know if co-drivers are also drivers? I mean, it would make sense for a co-driver to have been a driver, and vice-versa...

There have been some cross-overs, but not many. Fabrizia Pons was a good driver before she became Michel Mouton and Piero Liatti's co-driver. And Nicky Grist recently dabbled with driving and did quite respectably.

Certainly it will be a help for both to have a go at the other's jobin order to improve understanding of what other does. But they are very different activities and demand different talents. Many, maybe most, drivers cannot stomach being a high-speed passenger. However, I would say that co-drivers can learn a lot from a good driver and can be a lot faster drivers as a result.

[Ian McKean]

Silver,

Thanks for that Vatanen link. I have downloaded it, watched it and confirm it is truly awesome.

I have always said that if I ever made any money I would like to do the Pikes Peak hillclimb. Now I've changed my mind. It scares the s**t out of me. At least in the forests there are plenty of trees to slow you down when you go off.

The Pikes Peak course appears (to a British ex-rallyist) very wide and featureless; very difficult to remember which corner is which. How much practice do they get? It must be easier if you do it year after year like the Unsers and I wonder if Eklund will go back for another shot. There were certainly a few corners that Vatanen got wrong and had to improvise on. I am sure he would have been faster with pacenotes.

The rear wing on the Peugeot was massive and I am astonished that it did not cause too much understeer. Still I suppose the air is thin at Pikes Peak.

It is a shame that modern strangled WRC cars do not really sound like competition cars in comparison with the old Group B cars like that Peugeot, or for that matter, the previous generation of normally aspirated rally cars.

You might guess from that comment that I normally lurk on the Nostalgia Forum!

[Ian McKean]

Originally posted by shoos
does anyone know if co-drivers are also drivers? I mean, it would make sense for a co-driver to have been a driver, and vice-versa...

Vic Elford was perhaps the best-known crossover. Rauno Aaltonen co-drove with Eugen Bohringer a few times.

Andy Dawson won at least one National status rally as a navigator (this was before the days of pacenotes) when still a schoolboy and Internationals (Cyprus, Mintex) as a driver. He was always more interested in driving but was absolutely brilliant on the maps, as I discovered to my embarassment when I navigated for him once before he was famous. It would be a bit off-topic to relate that story here, but maybe later ...

[BRG]

Originally posted by Ian McKean
It would be a bit off-topic to relate that story here, but maybe later ...

Well, I for one am all agog and would love to hear about that!

Dawson was a maverick by British rally standards, starting off driving with Hillman Imps (and the Imp derived Clan Crusader) and Avengers, before becoming closely involved with Datsun/Nissan, apart from his dalliance with the Stratos. He rarely drove the otherwise ubiquitous Ford Escort.

[Pioneer]

Originally posted by Ian McKean
Silver,



The rear wing on the Peugeot was massive and I am astonished that it did not cause too much understeer. Still I suppose the air is thin at Pikes Peak.

Did you not notice the size of the front air dam on that thing? It puts all the riceboys in my hometown to shame!

[Ian McKean]

Had a further thought about that huge rear wing on the Peugeot and its suitability for a gravel rally car.

It works 100% when going in a straight line and 0% when completely sideways! The opposite of what you want if you drive like Vatman that is! (Strange to think that Vatman is now a Member of the European Parliament, but I digress).

The best that can be said for it is that when the car is completely sideways the large end plates would at least act as an airbrake even if the aerofoil was useless.

Still, the front airdam probably doesn't work very well either when sideways.

It seems to me that a delta shaped wing would be more suitable for rally cars - say about 20-30% angle - so that the wing would be better with yaw.

(I'm trying to be technical here instead of merely nostalgic!)

Yes, Pioneer, the front airdam was also huge. It is entirely a guess on my part that the rear wing would generate more downforce than the airdam. I have no experience with either. Vatanen did not seem to suffer from poor turn-in and did not appear to have to throw the car at the corners to get it sideways (or do the Scandinavian reverse flick) so we must assume that you are right. BTW what is a "riceboy"? Is this what we call a boy-racer in the UK?

Another thought on the Pikes Peak course. For gravel it is amazingly smooth and well graded. I know they allow some (maybe 3 or so?) practice runs so how do they keep the track in such good condition? Rally forests are much rougher and would not allow such a deep airdam with so little ground clearance.

It would be interesting to see a similar film of one of the top open wheel specials that compete at Pikes Peak. I believe they have 5 litre Chev engines (is that about 302 cu. in.?) in the rear. I looked at the Pikes Leak website some time ago and could not understand the classes at all. Perhaps someone from the States could explain them to me.

BRG, you are another renegade from TNF aren't you? Since you ask, I shall post on Dawson in a few days.

[Pioneer]

Riceboys are those strange people who spend thousands of dollars modifying Honda Civics and small japanese economy sedans. You know... big spoilers, body kits, exhaust tips, racing stripes, and lots of stupid looking things like 6 foot long stickers that say "Powered by Honda" and such.

Dunno what you call them in the UK, but here, we call them riceboys.

See

http://www.riceboypage.com/

for more details.

As for the wings. Yes they don't work very well when sideways, but thats not what they're for in this case. They're to keep the car stuck to the road when Vatanen plants full power from that beast of an engine on the corner exits.

[Ian McKean]

Originally posted by Pioneer
As for the wings. Yes they don't work very well when sideways, but thats not what they're for in this case. They're to keep the car stuck to the road when Vatanen plants full power from that beast of an engine on the corner exits.

In my opinion they are equally to achieve improved roadholding and braking as well as acceleration.

Returning to the subject of angled wings that would be more effective in yaw situations, I think I remember a F1 Surtees car being so equipped. Can anyone confirm this?

[BRG]

Originally posted by Pioneer
Dunno what you call them in the UK, but here, we call them riceboys.

We call them "boy-racers" - their favourite car at the moment to tune and modify is the Citroen Saxo VTR or VTS.

In the UK, Japanese cars don't have much of a performance image (except for Imprezas and Lancer Evos). Hondas in particular are seen as dull cars only bought by retired people and Toyota have very little image at all. SO much for all thier motorsport invovlement - it has had precious little effect on the average joe in the UK, sadly.

Ian McKean mentioned angled wings on the Surtees. There definitely was such a thing, but whether it was actually intended to still work when the was car out of line, I am not sure.

[Ian McKean]

Originally posted by US-F1Fan

1. Can someone describe the timeline of a rally. I know about legs, stages, etc. But I've read about the time between stages when the drivers have to drive to the next stage. Sometimes the car can be serviced during this time and sometimes not? And the driver has to arrive before a certain time before the next "timed" stage.The TV coverage here tends to gloss over a lot of the 'behind the scenes" info. What is the TV coverage like in GB?

In the UK the road sections (i.e. the supposedly non-competitive sections between the special stages) may not (by law) be set at an average speed of more than 30mph. Of course if a car has to have a lot of service lke a gearbox change this cuts the time available so they may have to go quite quick on the public roads (as Fudman relates in NZ when McRae overtook him and was out of sight in half a mile).

When I did the TAP Rally (the Portuguese) back in 1972 (well it was the year that Achim Warmbold won, whatever that was) the road sections were set at at average of 37 kph. Pretty leisurely, you might think, but by carefully mis-setting the clocks at the start and finish controls of a road section, all of a sudden a theoretical 37kph becomes 60, 70 or whatever you like it to be. There was one section where even the fastest works-entered cars dropped three minutes, in spite of having pacenotes for it. It was a gravel forest road so why the organizers did not make it a special stage I cannot imagine.

The works Renault Alpines of that era used an ingenious flap valve in the exhaust system. The driver pulled a cord or flicked a switch and the silencer was bypassed. They sounded glorious on the stages. Of course they would normally only use the flap valve on the stages, apart from the "impossible" road sections in Portugal!

In the UK it is ingrained that if you see a policeman you slow down, especially on the road sections of a Rally. But on the TAP Rally the junctions were all manned by policemen and I suppose it was pretty boring work for them if the rally cars weren't on the limit. They would stamp their right boot on the ground as you approached to make it clear that they expected "oppy-locky" from you.

Oddly enough, in those days we saw more spectators on the road sections in Portugal than on the stages. As Tony Fowkes' navigator, Bryan Harris, said to me on the boat when I asked for advice (they had done this event before), "I shouldn't worry about the navigation, just drive between the people!"

A different world.

[Roadkill]

Originally posted by Ian McKean

Andy Dawson won at least one National status rally as a navigator (this was before the days of pacenotes) when still a schoolboy and Internationals (Cyprus, Mintex) as a driver. He was always more interested in driving but was absolutely brilliant on the maps, as I discovered to my embarassment when I navigated for him once before he was famous. It would be a bit off-topic to relate that story here, but maybe later ...

Jeez! You brought some memories flooding Ian! Years ago when I was a student I happened upon Andy Dawson's mews garage in Lambolle place Hampstead. At the time he was in the process of building a radical Escort RS. (JJN...N) I think. It had compression struts, watts linkage, adjustable everything on the suspension front. It blew my mind!. A few years later the famed Monte Carlo RS's had pretty much the same suspension layout.At the same time he also was a technical columnist for CCC magazine.
I wonder what is he up to these days?. Last I heard of him he set up DAD in Milton Keynes fettling Datsun(!) Violets and then Audi Quattros. Very fertile mind had Andy. If you have any more anecdotes about the man, I for one would love to hear them.

Cheers

[Roadkill]

Originally posted by kober
I've heard Nicky Grist even can't see out of the car, because his seat has been lowered to improve the CoG position...

Now that you mentioned it.Years ago The Fiat 131 Abarths had the codriver’s seat set well back and low in the car as well.If memory serves me corectly, It was positioned centrally and offset offside; the co-drivers view to all intents and purposes was through his side window!..I think only Marku Alen & Ikka Kivimaki ever ran this spec...This configuration was subsequently banned!..I often wonder why?

I also heard that Per Eklund in a TR7 V8 could drive in the dark (with lights out!) Just by taking heed what his co-driver (Hans Thorzelius) was reeling out to him…Info from pace notes and trip meter!...If true, these Rally boys are indeed brave!

[tormave]

Originally posted by BRG
I am struck by how little information Gronholm seems to want - his notes are very terse. Whereas Sainz has a torrent of words from Moya. Even allowing that Spanish (or is it Catalan?) is a more verbose langiuage than Finnish, there still seems to be far more data in Sainz's notes.

Gronholm has about the same number of notes as the English drivers, but Finnish is just a lot more concise. The Finnish drivers use "rally dialect" to more shorten the notes and make the more distiguishable.

Example:
------------
English: "tightens"
Finnish: "kiristyy"
Finnish rally: "kirraa"

Due to the conciseness of the Finnish notes I often make more sense from the English ones, despite being Finnish.

The amount of in-car coverage from the WRC now makes watching it simply amazing. From entertainmen POV my top-3 now is 1) WRC, 2) MotoGP and 3) F1.

/vesku

[Ian McKean]

Originally posted by Roadkill


Jeez! You brought some memories flooding Ian! Years ago when I was a student I happened upon Andy Dawson's mews garage in Lambolle place Hampstead. At the time he was in the process of building a radical Escort RS. (JJN...N) I think. It had compression struts, watts linkage, adjustable everything on the suspension front. It blew my mind!. A few years later the famed Monte Carlo RS's had pretty much the same suspension layout.At the same time he also was a technical columnist for CCC magazine.
I wonder what is he up to these days?. Last I heard of him he set up DAD in Milton Keynes fettling Datsun(!) Violets and then Audi Quattros. Very fertile mind had Andy. If you have any more anecdotes about the man, I for one would love to hear them.

Cheers

Roadkill, I am sorry that I have been too busy to relate any Andy stories, but one little story came to mind a few days ago when I was listening to Sounds of the 60's or some such programme. They played a catchy but somewhat juvenile little tune that took me back to the long straights of Speech House 35 years ago!

Andy said to me before the Tour of Dean (of about 1968, IIRC) that since his car was so slow on the straights (we were impecunious students at the time so he still only had the 875 c.c. motor) would I mind if he sang on the straights to keep from getting bored. O.K. I said, knowing he was a little eccentric. It transpired that the only song he knew was the one that went,

"Yummy Yummy Yummy I got love in my tummy and I feel like loving you ..."

Thank God he couldn't afford an intercom in those days!