22 replies to this topic

[Christopher Snow]

We have an ongoing debate over in the world of "Grand Prix Legends" ('67 era computer racing sim) about whether or not Clark, Hill and their compatriots used the right or left foot to brake the cars. Sim-racing norm is typically to use two feet...left foot for braking, right for throttle, in part because we usually do not have to deal with shifter or clutch (even though some of us do like to).

My own supposition is that they typically, if not always, would have used the right foot alone to brake the car. Then depending on pedal arrangement. they would have blipped the throttle for downshifting using either the outer edge of the right foot (modern style), or possibly the heel of the right foot with the ball of the foot maintaining pressure on the brake pedal pad and the heel canted outward onto the throttle pad, angled perhaps 30-45 degrees off the vertical. I'm of the opinion the left foot would almost always have stayed on the left side of the steering shaft.

In the case of the Lotus 49, it seems to me that the pedalboxfootwell is simply too narrow on the right side of the steering shaft to even get two feet alongside one another without interference. About 7" in there by my measurements, perhaps 12"-12 12" wide overall. I seriously doubt I could do it myself.

Assuming of course that the driver could manage--and was willing to risk--dipping the toes of his left foot down under the steering shaft and over onto the brake, it still seems to me that it would have been a tight fit even for Clark...but I'm really just guessing in the end. Clark, Hill, Siffert, Rindt...they are all gone and I can't ask them. My best bet here in the States might be to hunt up Pete Lovely at the next historic meet and ask him, but he might not have been privy, after all, to some of the insider secrets back then.

Anyone know definitively one way or the other? Thanks for any replies.

[A photo of a Lotus 49 footwell taken at Coys 2000 by Roland Ehnstrom in this thread: http://forum.racesim...8889#post198889]


Christopher Snow

[Doug Nye]

In that period right-foot braking, definitely - I recall several conversations at the time concerning the Finnish and Swedish rally drivers having adopted left-foot braking under certain circumstances - Erik Carlsson beaming and sing-songing "Fonny bloddy people - us Svedes....".

DCN

[Bernd]

In most cars of that period including the Lotus 49 & Brabham BT24 (Which I've sat in) it simply wasn't possible to left foot brake as the steering column gets in the way.

Clark describes his braking technique in At the Wheel and he most definately a right foot braker and he was the best of the lot, particularly under brakes.

[Bernd]

Just had a look at the image of the 49 footwell in the other thread and wow there is more room than I thought.... However I would say though it does seem that it likely was possible it simply wasn't done. The left foot was kept mighty busy with the clutch.

Also trail braking in no way requires left foot braking as a lot of the GPL community seem to assume.

[Christopher Snow]

Wow, thanks for the quick reply Doug. And you too Bernd.

Agreed, BTW, about trailbraking. That was actually the theme of the thread in question over there, trailbraking, and I gave my own definition and outlined of the difference a bit further up in that same thread.

I'm afraid I wound up turning it all into a small commercial touting the realism benefits of right foot braking again, however. Sometimes I just can't help myself....

But to me, if it's worth doing, I think it's worth doing right if you know when it is...or not.

Can I ask, Bernd, if I have seen you over there (I think I have) and whether or not you use the more realistic method yourself in GPL (probably a question for the other forum, but you are over here, so....)?


CS

[Rainer Nyberg]

Due to the running characteristics of the peaky two-stroke Saab, the pedal had to be floored to keep the revs up. Left-foot braking was also a way of getting the tail out for front-wheel drive cars, to create oversteer on loose surfaces. Later the technique was also introduced on rear-wheel drive cars. And even later it found its way to circuit racing.

[Bernd]

Doug & Rainier have it left foot braking was introduced by the swedes back when they absolutely dominated rallying.

Chris the pedal setup I have for GPL makes it impossible to brake in the traditional way hence I have to left foot brake, from my karting experience this wasn't a problem but I would like to be able to brake in the traditional way for GPL. Unfortunately I'm also cursed with the fact they I am only quick when totally & utterly pissed 29's at Monza sober 27's pissed, 3.20's at Spa sober 3.17's pissed etc etc. Bloody odd and anoying I think.

I post rarely over at GPLEA as Monza Gorilla as I'm a great fan of the late Italian nutter Vittorio Brambilla

[Christopher Snow]

Ok. Knew I had seen that moniker somewhere--I certainly have seen your posts over there.

I always did used to get a chuckle reading Road & Track's race reports. Rob Walker: "....and then on lap twelve, Vittorio fell off the road again...." Just too funny for words, the images that conjured up.

I'll probably crash now the next time I think of it (at speed)...my own particular curse behind the wheel.

............"oh nooooooo....!"


CS

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Bernd
Unfortunately I'm also cursed with the fact they I am only quick when totally & utterly pissed 29's at Monza sober 27's pissed, 3.20's at Spa sober 3.17's pissed etc etc. Bloody odd and anoying I think.

Strange but true department - I have actually heard a couple of professional racing drivers confess to this effect, but dangerously the perfromance boost wears off once a certain degree of 'inebriation' is exceeded. Late owner/driver of the world's fastest 'W.O.' Bentley - Jumbo Goddard - liked to take a drop of 'The Red Infuriator' before he would go out to give his all, and some greats from the past must surely have had a residual blood alcohol level that was way above what is today considered sensible from their exertions the night before?

It's very non-PC to discuss such matters lightly these days, but in the real world of yore 'stimulants' have certainly featured - e.g. Giovanni Bracco's celebrated bottle of brandy in the 1952 Mille Miglia, foaming pints for Hawthorn and Hamilton - kindred spirits if ever there were any - Fangio's 'magic' pills - as used by Moss in his '55 Mille Miglia epic - various rally stars' benzedrine tablets during the period when 36 hours at the wheel was nothing unusual - and so on, and so on... But this might be in danger of becoming another thread?
DCN

[Rainer Nyberg]

I also believe that leftfoot braking is popular in America, due to the fact that so many roadcars has automatic transmission?

Maybe true only in normal road-traffic.

[ray b]

Chris Left foot braking or trail-braking is only part of GPL driving style,
what the SIM allows is " trail+gas-braking" where gas is used as a anti-lock
for the rear brakes this F-1 cars in 67 didnot/couldnot do!!!!
maybe an occasional save OK, but not a every lap trick as brakes would quickly over heat
PLUS in an other thread a new F-1 driver tryed it on a modern car BUT tean said NO
as gas milage and brake heat both suffered tooooo much!!!!!!
auto-X for one lap maybe only real-world use other than rally cars.

[Christopher Snow]

That's my own view too, ray. The fact that the sim's physics engine seems to allow drivers to use this technique is something I can only view as an abberation--even a failure of the program (but there aren't many...it's excellent). I'm honestly not sure whether it's a loophole in the program itself or a loophole in Microsoft's DX controller input routines that makes it possible, but I certainly do view it with skepticism. And so I don't take advantage of it--I'm a confirmed RF braker, and I don't add throttle (except to blip in neutral when matching revs).

I do wish I could convince more GPLers of the virtues of trying to do it the "right" way, but it can be a hard sell when using the "loophole" method seems to make you so much quicker. But if a sim driver can resist the temptation and force himself to try it the real way, I do think he'll find it quite challenging, challenging in a way the kart style driver probably cannot appreciate, in fact.

I find it really does require a balancing act because the car can only be asked to do certain things at certain times. So many of the comments I've read over the years about driving technique in real cars DO apply in GPL (and probably do not to the same degree when using two feet).

I do know also that a number of real world racers drive RFB in GPL too, if only to avoid reeinforcing potentially disruptive or dangerous habits they might inadvertantly try to apply in the real car. Those who race their real cars primarily using RFB anyway--there are some who race real cars using two feet as well, with left foot braking. However, unless I've misunderstood them, they also generally do agree that what works in GPL using two feet (this "power braking") really does not work at all in real cars.

The most I've heard this way is from one real-world two foot racer (unnamed here) who confided he would sometimes try to load up the throttle in his real cars...load it up against the brake a tiny bit just as he neared the apex to achieve a small "slingshot exit" effect. I did not understand him to say, however, that he ever used GPL-style power braking when driving the real deal.

Of course, it's always possible he didn't really confide everything after all....


Christopher Snow

[Doug Nye]

Loading up throttle against brakes was certainly a (briefly-used) technique in the early days of the turbocharged Renault sports cars, the earliest Renault turbo F1 and those from Ferrari, Alfa, Brabham-BMW etc which followed - simply to wind up the turbo and have the boost chiming in as one needed it, the instant the driver rolled off the brakes and had the car balanced ready to accept traction. But, boy, was it a dangerous technique. The penalty if the driver timed it wrong could be immense...

Somewhat similarly, Fangio famously used a similar technique in 1957 at Monaco during practice, when he drove the V12 Maserati 250F. That engine was all about peak power with no worthwhile torque low down in the rev range at all. So JMF barrelled down into the Gazometre hairpin, declutched, kept the V12 revving all the way round the 180-degree corner, then popped the clutch back into engagement at the appropriate moment - and exited the hairpin like Don Garlits on a promise - with his car's rear tyres alight, and that velvet touch of opposite lock to keep it all under perfect control.

Can one simulate that on the programme you are using????

DCN

[Liam]

Doug, the BRM H16 engine (in GPL) seems similar to that 250's, it has no power low down either, though I suspect if you put the clutch in (ok, press a buton on the wheel) and stay on the throtle in realistic damage mode you'll blow the engine, if not the first time, very soon.

I don't use the press-both-peddles stuff on GPL (cause I can't really do it), but I do left foot brake. I might try it with just the right, but it would be easier if I had a clutch peddle as well.

I think I have a strange style though. I brake in a straighth line, but am usually off them at turn in, but rather than wait for the apex to apply throttle, I put it back on at turn in. This does tend to cause understeer, so my setup actually turns the car in a lot at low speeds. I gave the setup to a friend recently and was quite shocked at how much oversteer the car had for him at turn in.

[Christopher Snow]

Yes I think it can, although most sim racers will not have a clutch pedal per se (they'll use an onoff button instead). I'll have to train my own button thumb, too, in order to try this idea out myself, as my Lotus 49 inspired cockpit and pedals are still a work in progress.

The sim does have two cars with powerbands similar to that Maserati you describe...the H-16 BRM, and the Honda (called Murasama in the sim for legal reasons, but we all refer to it by it's proper name. Similarly, the sim's "Coventry" is understood to actually be the Cooper).

The sim's BRM already sports a six speed gearbox to compensate for the lack of a bottom end torque. The Honda only has five gears, but the latter's mid-range is not too bad really....not missing in action to the degree it seems to have been on Fangio's Maserati, so those drivers don't suffer all that much out of tight corners. In fact, ALL the cars are floundering around in a similar fashion at Gasworks and Station in GPL (and at Mexico's hairpin and Nouveau Monde as well).

I asked some regulars at VROC about using this technique you outline a short time ago and the general consensus was that one would not gain much by it in GPL (although everyone also thought you certainly could do it). One fellow went off to try it himself with a button clutch and came back after twenty laps or so saying it was hard to coordinate the move well--we both agree, though, that for someone who used a clutch pedal in every day driving, it would probably be fairly easy to master.

I must admit, you do have me wondering if there isn't a little less ground to be lost to the Lotus and Eagle drivers in this way. I think I will have to try it myself and see too. And then again at a later date with a true clutch pedal.

---

BTW, the program DOES make provision for an analog clutch if one has one, and it's coming into fashion a bit more of late due to the recent introduction of a proper shifter (not great, but workable certainly), and an alteration of the basic program to allow it's full use. GPL normally uses an automatic "clutch inblipclutch out" routine on downshifts, to allow use of modern style paddles most of us have for shifting, but it's now possible to bypass this entirely and do it the real way for those who want to find out how good they really are....or not.

It is still not actually necessary to "match revs" with this shifter prior to engaging a lower gear--the shifter will simply drop right (I suppose you might think of it as the perfect synchromesh)--but if you want to avoid snatching the rear end free from the road due to a speed mismatch it would pay to be good at it, nonetheless. As in a real car.

Can I ask if you ever did drive the 49 yourself, Doug? Even at low speeds around the garage? There are a few little cockpit details I wonder about, you see...and you might be one of the few people who actually would know the answers....(uh oh..now you've done it!).


CS

[Doug Nye]

Having put my heart into '49/3' for many months there was no way I was going to let it go without having driven it, on the estate roads at Barnards Park, between the wandering pheasants... As Andretti would say when approached by questing journos "Whaddya wanna know?" - I'll see if I can remember. I promise that if I cannot, I won't make it up.

Re slipping the clutch on the BRM H16 - they had enough trouble keeping a clutch in the darned thing without anyone abusing it... How realistic do you want your programme to be?

DCN

[Joe Fan]

When it comes to yesterdays cars, road racers usually right-foot braked where oval racers left-foot braked. Why? Its simple:

Road courses have slow and fast turns. Thus it required a driver to change gears frequently, so most road racers employed the heal-and-toe method in order to optimize their speed and gear changes. This meant that the left foot was used on the clutch pedal and the right foot dances between the gas and brake pedal.

Oval courses (except for short tracks) have no slow corners, they are all high speed ones which usually require very few gear changes except for getting the car up to speed. Therefore, the name of the game on an oval is to keep the car going as fast as it possibly can go all the time. Running at higher retained speeds, things on the track come up on you more quickly. So drivers had to be quicker on the brake pedal to avoid accidents. So, most oval racers usually keep their left foot near or resting gently on the brake pedal and their right foot on the gas. The classic example of this would be the restrictor-plate NASCAR races where you drive flat out. gas pedal to the floor all day while running in a bunched up pack of cars.

NASCAR driver Ricky Rudd said in an interview a few years ago, that this is why road course racers usually do very well in the NASCAR road races. Not because NASCAR drivers can't make right and left turns, but because you are at a disadvantage left-foot braking on a road course. And if you do change over and right-foot brake for the road courses, it is something you only do a couple of times a year in Winston Cup. So, the drivers who don't have to make any adjustments to the driving style will naturally be at an advantage.

[ray b]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Having put my heart into '49/3' for many months there was no way I was going to let it go without having driven it, on the estate roads at Barnards Park, between the wandering pheasants... As Andretti would say when approached by questing journos "Whaddya wanna know?" - I'll see if I can remember. I promise that if I cannot, I won't make it up.

Re slipping the clutch on the BRM H16 - they had enough trouble keeping a clutch in the darned thing without anyone abusing it... How realistic do you want your programme to be?

DCN

I am sure GPL fans want it all, from a owner of the holy grail lotus 49/3

DID any setup info come with the car like toe/caster/camber, and how much could you adjust these setings and what setings were used at what tracks??
what spring rates were used min-max, did springs sets swap or just adjust coilovers to be tighter or softer ??
did extra roll bars come with car? or were they adjusted like springs to change loads
bump rubbers how hi , how many sizes used and/or harder or softer sets in same sized???

ride hight min-max, how much did the hight change with fuel loads??

any info on differences in setups used by Clark from what G Hill liked at the same track??

tyres what was real size of tread and dia of tyres

that just to start us, I am sure more Questions will follow!!!!!

[Christopher Snow]

You've made my day, Doug, thanks for playin' along.

Ok, first I think might be an ongoing question I (we) have had about the car's steering...very basic:

How many turns of the wheel, lock-to-lock?

And somewhat related: Would you have an accurate idea of how far the wheels turned off center at each extreme? In degrees....

I think I already have enough to draw some pretty accurate conclusions about this from the photo at the top of page 229 of Michael Oliver's book "Lotus 49, Story of a Legend." This shot seems to have been taken from a vantage point looking almost vertically downward into Jimmy's empty car (probably from atop a pitbox), and I can make out the wheel spokes well enough to see that it's gone around at least one full turn, and maybe a bit more...say between 1.0 and 1.1 rotatations. I'm certain too from road test info that one of the mid-60's Honda's turned 1.8 full turns lock-to-lock, so I'm pretty sure the Lotus would have been similar...about two full turns of the wheel and not four.

I'm also going to guess that the front wheels are crabbed around to full left lock in that photo, but they may go even a bit further still? Measuring off the pic, I get at least 33 degrees off center, and if I account for the fact that the vantage point is still somewhat off to the side.....I'm guessing they might have turned about 35 degrees each way then? 70 degrees lock-to-lock and perhaps 2.2 full turns of the wheel?

And maybe another very basic question: What was the outside diameter of the wheel itself? The general arrangement drawing inside the front cover of this book tells me about 11.0" but that wasn't really the purpose of the drawing anyway....is that dependable or would you know for sure what it actually measured instead?

I'd be surprised, really, if you are certain about much of this, but any insight would be helpful even if a bit foggy--I can only tell you what my own road car's steering does because I've measured it, not because I really remember...and I last drove it only yesterday....

---

Another line of questioning relates to the gearbox..more specifically the operation of the lever itself. Info in this same book suggests that R3 still had the original ZF gearboxe(s) when it came into your possession, so hopefully you'll know:

Basics first again: What was the actual shift pattern? And was it much of a move of the knob between the positions, particularly fore-aft?

The commercial shifter I mentioned is not quite "tight" enough this way, IMO, and I'd like to make a better job of it if I can. Something in metal rather than plastic, and with accurate throws....

I've assumed three "slots" up to this point (although they would probably not be slots in the same way that they are in a Ferrari...no actual slotted gate). So....maybe the 2-5 "H" would have been the center and right slots? With first forward to the left and accessed by a pull against a spring? And maybe reverse might be left also, but pulled backward, opposite to first?

Anything you remember would be helpful, even if it clouds things up.

A number of shots (including the aforementioned one) show the lever inclined FORWARD into what I assume is either the first or third gear position (another pic elsewhere in the same book shows JC negotiating his way through the crowd at Kya after his win there in '68...the lever also seems to be forward and probably left. I think it's safe to assume he was in first gear at this point).

----

We do also understand that the ZF synchromesh box had what was probably an internal detent system which prevented engaging first gear until after second gear had been selected*....but would it have been possible to go downward directly from fifth or fourth into third or second? Or was it actually necessary to row downward one gear at a time every time?

I also wonder personally if the upper four gears..those in the main H pattern would have had a very distinct feeling of being in two different pairs of slots...or whether the lever might have tilted and angled more freely (almost "floppishly") between them (without centering springs). So that to shift from third up to fourth, for example (and again, I assume third was forward and center, fourth back and right), would have been more of a "diagonal move" pulling back and to the right almost casually....and less a a case of pulling straight back, then moving horizontally to the right, then straight back again into fourth, etc. Again...any insight is helpful, vague memories or not....

[*Similar to the "slide mechanism" Lauda decribes on his '75 312T in "Art and Science...." That slider prevented the lever from engaging bottom gear until second had been selected--I believe the slide simply covered the slot.]

----

I could probably waste a lot more of your time if you were willing, but hopefully all this won't be TOO tedious. I do want to use this info to build an accurate working cockpit and lever, so I trust you'll know it isn't all just a waste of your time and words.

Thanks again, Doug, for any insights you can offer.


Christopher Snow

[Christopher Snow]

Re: That BRM clutch. We've largely concluded at this point that certain things are not modeled in the sim...tyre and brake wearfade being the most well known. Tire heating IS modeled.

At the most realistic damage level I have had the occasional difficulty with the clutch, even though I would have used it just once to get off the grid (onoff button again, so I probably made a bad job of it). I do hope there is some wear accounting factor in the program myself, but I probably won't find out more until I begin making regular use of the clutch when downshifting--that has been the missing factor up until this point.

The same basic physics engine is also used in two Nascar sims, and I do understand that in all three cases it consists of constant real-time calculation of a number of moving and rotating parts in the engine and drivetrain ....updated about 300 timessecond in the case of GPL. The differential is modeled numerically, for example (based on a "Salisbury limited slip" type I believe), so it wouldn't surprise me to eventually find a penalty for improper...or even for proper but excessive...use of the clutch.

Even possible that you can do everything right and STILL have it go out on you. Things do break down, don't they?


CS

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Chris, I don't think any kind of wear other than engine wear is modeled. And I doubt even that. I think it's very possible to have an absolutely perfect reliability, given that you don't whack your car or don't accidentally overrev the engine. I suspect that the engine can simply be damaged or overheated, or not, it doesn't keep track of how many seconds you spent in the no-no rev zone. Of course, if you are revving high all the time, you'll overheat. I also notived that most engines are blown up when they're revved too high while oil temperature is still low. Probably something to do with cold oil not lubricating as well.

[Christopher Snow]

Addendum to "questionnaire" above:

I wasn't reading my protracter very carefully it seems...measuring the "down-on" photo again last night I came up with about 36 degrees of lock in the photo (and not 33 as I stated above). That might make it 38 degrees off center if one were actually looking vertically down on the crabbed front tire. So...perhaps 76 degrees at least of front tire range lock-to-lock. 80? Sounds about right or was there even more to be had for very tight quarters?


CS

[Christopher Snow]

New, and somewhat pertinent news item related to this old thread on March 23rd: A lap of Chris O'Brien round GPL's "Rouen" circuit showing his use of the commercial shifter I mentioned above as well as proper right foot pedal technique...right foot braking and clutch both. Rev matching using the right foot too (even though the shifter technically doesn't require you do it).

It seems someone else has timed the lap at about 2:00m flat, and while it can be done faster still with paddles and karting (two foot) technique, this method seems to be quite a bit more "correct" to me. RFB is not much of a limitation with good technique, IMO.

FYI, it seems Chris drove both F3 and FA during the early seventies, so he'd certainly have his own reasons too for wanting to drive the sim the right way.

http://www.netrevo.c...defaultjava.asp

The link to the video is currently at the top of the news page. It's in three parts and is assembled for viewing with a small batch file which is included. The "read.me" explains it pretty well, although I found it worked find without renaming it at all using Windows Media Player. It does not require one have the sim to view it.


Christopher Snow