28 replies to this topic

[XedtheLine]

I suppose this topic has been brought up previously, but I may have missed it. Do the production car Jags still use V-10 engines, or are V-8's the powerplant of choice this decade?
Was there ever a plan to use actual Jaguar V-10's in the F1 car? Not the re-badged Ford Cosworths currently used.

[Enkei]

The jags currently use a 72 degree Ford-Cosworth V-10 angle, me thinks theyre the only one left with the 72 degree engine. But that doesn't answer your Q

[Estwald]

Current Jags use either 2.5l or 3.0l V6's or 4.0l V8's

[Ursus]

I've never heard of any production Jag having a V10!

And the Cosworths aren't rebaged. The engines are built by Cosworth and are called Cosworth!

[Scudetto]

To the best of my knowledge, Jag never made a production car V10, they were all either V-12's or I-6's. Today, it's V8's and V6's.

The only production V10's I'm aware of are made by DaimlerChrysler for use in the Dodge Viper and Dodge heavy trucks. Chevy or Ford may also have them, but they're for truck use.

The last "production" engine used in F1, as I recall, was the BMW turbo adapted from the M3 and used by Brabham. If I remember the story correctly, BMW engineers actually pissed on the engines to oxidize the block.

F1's come a long way.

[JForce]

Originally posted by Scudetto If I remember the story correctly, BMW engineers actually pissed on the engines to oxidize the block.

F1's come a long way. [/B]

But engineers haven't!

[Kaiser]

I thought the Jag production cars used the 4.6 liter Ford V8

[Indian Chief]

Originally posted by Enkei
The jags currently use a 72 degree Ford-Cosworth V-10 angle, me thinks theyre the only one left with the 72 degree engine. But that doesn't answer your Q

Asiatech use a 72 degree V10 too. They have a new design based on the 2000 Peugeot.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by Scudetto
To the best of my knowledge, Jag never made a production car V10, they were all either V-12's or I-6's. Today, it's V8's and V6's.

The only production V10's I'm aware of are made by DaimlerChrysler for use in the Dodge Viper and Dodge heavy trucks. Chevy or Ford may also have them, but they're for truck use.

The last "production" engine used in F1, as I recall, was the BMW turbo adapted from the M3 and used by Brabham. If I remember the story correctly, BMW engineers actually pissed on the engines to oxidize the block.

F1's come a long way.

Note quite right Scudetto, but close.

The typical V Jag might of had 12 spark plugs and such, so many argued as you have about its configuration; most typically however the donk averaged 10 operational cylinders ...

[Pieter]

Scudetto
The BMW turbo engine was based on a 4 cilinder 1500ccm engine that made its debut in the BMW 1500 in the early 60s. The engine was still used in the first 3 series, the 315, that was kept in production till end 1983.

The first BMW m3 had a 4 cilinder 2302ccm engine. If remember correctly it was based on 6 cilinder used in the M635csi, but 2 cilinders were cut-off the block.

[Locai]

Originally posted by Scudetto
The only production V10's I'm aware of are made by DaimlerChrysler for use in the Dodge Viper and Dodge heavy trucks. Chevy or Ford may also have them, but they're for truck use.

IIRC, The Viper block is aluminum and the truck block is cast iron. Basically, they're the same design otherwise, just tuned differently.

Ford has a 6.8L EFI V10 Engine for its trucks.

I'm not sure if GM has a V10 or not, but it would be for their trucks if they do.

[Garagiste]

most typically however the donk averaged 10 operational cylinders

Making it several times more reliable than its Italian contemporaries.

[The First MH]

Oh. Well that certainly clears things up then...

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


Note quite right Scudetto, but close.

The typical V Jag might of had 12 spark plugs and such, so many argued as you have about its configuration; most typically however the donk averaged 10 operational cylinders ...

Spoken like a former Jag owner. A bit jaded, too, perhaps?

[BRG]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
most typically however the donk averaged 10 operational cylinders

But those ten were obviously enough to get it to first place after 24 hours at Le Mans...;)

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by BRG
But those ten were obviously enough to get it to first place after 24 hours at Le Mans...;)

yes those TWR prepared cars.

[XedtheLine]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough with my original question. I am fully aware that Ford uses the Cosworth engine in the Jaguar F1 car. That isn't the question here.

I was under the impression that when Jaguar ran the "Silk Cut" and "Castrol " cars years ago, the cars were fitted with V-10's. Were they actually V-12's???

Anyway, I realize Ford wanted to try to reach a younger demographic and promote their Jag brand, but I think most would agree that they have done a piss-poor job of it.

The question is, did Ford ever intend to have a real Jaguar powerplant in the Jag, or was it just going to be a 'bogus' badge?

Thank you.

[Chui]

Originally posted by XedtheLine
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough with my original question. I am fully aware that Ford uses the Cosworth engine in the Jaguar F1 car. That isn't the question here.

I was under the impression that when Jaguar ran the "Silk Cut" and "Castrol " cars years ago, the cars were fitted with V-10's. Were they actually V-12's???

Anyway, I realize Ford wanted to try to reach a younger demographic and promote their Jag brand, but I think most would agree that they have done a piss-poor job of it.

The question is, did Ford ever intend to have a real Jaguar powerplant in the Jag, or was it just going to be a 'bogus' badge?

Thank you.

Silk Cut Jaguar ran 6.0L and 7.0L V-12 powerplants. The Castrol cars ran 6.0L V-12 engines here in IMSA GTP.

The problem with Jaguar, as I see it, is that they are drifting from their heritage. Historically, they've been road racing GT cars then 'sophisticated' boulevard cruisers. There's no way to mix evo-ness and 'boulevard cruiser.'

How DO you attract younger buyers and keep the feminine, sophisticated image that's been created and nurtured over the last 30 years? I dunno. Me thinks they are not synonymous... Look at BMW. The 3 series is rather 'butch' by today's standards. Always has been and hopefully always will. However, the new BMW 7 Series has cast many a doubt as to who the Hell is running the Quandt family's beloved little company... HELLO!!!!!! They are becoming a bit common with BMW producing upwards of 800,000 BMWs per year, but only the M Series have been truly rare and they are SPORTS sedans - not sporty sedans a la Jaguar.

So, what would I, Chui, do in an ideal world if I were Ford Motor Company? I would make two new engines: An inline six [3.5L to 4.0L displacement] and a 60 degree V-12 [6.0L]. The S Type would use the 3.5L straight 6. And all further production cars would be made with packaging the V-12 powerplant in mind.

I'd also resurrect the D and E Types and regenerate the legend of the D Type and Lightweight E Types at LeMans. Yep. I'd race them. Both in Europe and America. No F1 for Jaguar. The "next E Type" would be a Boxter S competitor [handling wise] with ultimate goal to being a Porsche 996 GT3 competitor for the Type R version of the car.

For the GTP category I'd use the V-12 powerplant - for both Jag and Aston.

I personally would not try to increase the volume of cars too much for fear of diluting the image that I'd be carefully rebuilding. I would not make a $30,000 car.

In short, when I look at a Tuscan in CAR or EVO magazine I envision the Lightweight E Type that I would most certainly produce given the resources. Now I could hardly be described as Anglophilic, but the heritage/image so carefully created should not be overlooked so readily in the hopes of increasing presence of the cars on the road.

My own concept of Jaguar and it's customer-base is that few who drive them follow F1. I understand the idea of having Jag in F1 [i.e., BMW and M-B], but the customer base for BMW is far sportier than either M-B or Jag. I'm not sure what exactly M-B gets out of F1, either. Do they even offer a manual transmissioned car????

Alas, I'm neither a businessman or wealthy. I'm merely one who looks with rose colored glasses at automobile companies. And dream of what was and what things SHOULD be like today...

[Melbourne Park]

Normally I agree with you Chui, but on this occassion I don't. The idea of "resurrecting" is not good policy IMO.
While what I say may be wrong as I haven't checked up on anything, in examining Jaguar, IMO the key success factors highlight some of the elements that made the company successfull. One overall factor was their cars were beautifull. Another they performed well. Another they were good value. Another was they came out with fabulous cars just when they needed them, until the XJS that is. The XK two seaters changed the sports car world, and established a sporting platform the envy of an auto maker. That heritage was replaced by another great car, the E type. The Mark whatever were all great cars (except for the Mark X and 420 G series but then they were brave and had a go at what they thought the US market would like. The small sedans were great, obviously the XJ sedan was also brilliant. From the XJS on, I think they lost the plot. In fact I think the V12 E type was ugly, although collectable. It seemed to me when Malcombe Sayer left, and Lyons left, Jag. really lost a lot. All those Sayer cars were extraordinary. I think he was wasted: he should have set up an English car design business, if he had maybe the English industry would be quite different.

Introducing a retro element is not the go. Jaguar needs to be able to introduce clearly remarkable products at a great price if they want to recapture their past ... to do so, a company needs a genius or two at the top, and in jauguar's current form I doubt that's possable.

[Chui]

I'm not speaking 'retro' here I'm speaking of maintaining your history and heritage. Porsche uses Flat 6s, turbo and normally aspirated. The are also rear or mid-engined. Why change what got you where you are. BMW is an Inline 6 company. So is Jaguar. Or so WAS Jaguar.

I'd like to see Jaguar return to it's roots. And I don't mean styling. Jaguars were "initially" cars that were British Porsche 911s. That is not the case today and hasn't been since 1975 or so.

My concept [ill-chosen words actually] would necessitate another 2 seater that carries an inline 6 and V-12 engine. This car should be able to run with a 996 Carrera and BMW M3. This car should also compete in GT racing to rekindle the "youthful, exhuberant" customer base that every car maker wishes to entice. Jaguar [as did every other Euro luxury car maker] made it's name in the heat of competition. Some, like Ferrari, chose F1 as the venue. Others chose Sportscar and GT Racing. I think Jaguar and Aston should continue else they become inflexible, iconic representations of some measure of personal wealth.

I'd love to own a 'proper' Jaguar which reflected an image that closely represents my own. When it comes to luxury automobiles I prefer competition heritage. Of course, Honda and Toyota reliability, resale, etc, etc are equally important, but there's just no way in Hades I'd choose ANY sedan over a BMW as no other manufacturer currently offers anything remotely close to what BMW has represented over the last 1/4 century. As I stated earlier, it appears that Mickey Mouse is in charge of Product Development now [the horrible 7 Series] so this may change soon. The new 6 Series seems to be poised to be a Grand Tourer par excellence. I'll wait to see the interior layout...

Currently, Lotus is holding true to itself as far as product is concerned. The Elise is the standard-bearer for all sportscar manufacturers. Porsche should drop it's head in shame and BMW is getting further and further away from it's roots as well. The danger is that by chasing the well-monied customers, who are typically not at all interested in things such as engine configuration, history and sporting capabilities, is that during a downturn these are the first people to jump ship leaving you with godawful products that the true cogniscienti wouldn't touch. Witness Porsche's tailspin in the 80's and their predicted downfall later this decade... The pre-eminent sportscar maker making SUVs... Good luck to them.

[XedtheLine]

Thanks for all the replies folks, but my questions have not been answered yet. Let me state it this way:
Why does Jaguar race with the Cosworth V-10 engine, besides the obvious fact that Ford owns Jag?
Is there no one besides Tom Walkinshaw who is capable of producing a valid "Jaguar" powerplant?
Did Ford know they were going to have a pathetic record the next decade, so they said let's just pawn it off on Jaguar?
And while I'm thinking of it, what does the "R" stand for in R3? Racing or rotten?

Thanks,

X

[FordFan]

I'm not really sure what you're asking.

If your asking, 'Why not put a production Jag engine in their F1 car?', it's for the simple reason that no production engine would be anywhere close to be up to the performance level necessary. That time has long since passed. Honda, Merc, Renault, and BMW engines aren't production engines either.

If you're wondering why didn't Jaguar do a 'start from scratch' F1 engine - that seems like a horrible waste of resources for Ford, since they have a more than capable division doing that already (Cosworth, as you note).

So, what is this 'Jag' engine you're wondering about? Why would Walkinshaw's (or anyone else) building an engine make it anymore a Jag than Cosworth?

As far as Ford expecting a horrible record, so they 'pawn it off of Jaguar' - I'm not sure what the "it" is here. The Cosworth engine is and has been just fine - both in terms of overall horsepower, weight, and flatness of power curve. The Pi management software is considered by some to be the best on the grid. (HHF put in the 8th fastest lap in Malaysia with the Arrows chassis).

Don't know about the 'R'. My guess is it's for the 'r' in 'Jaguar', since Jordan uses the 'J'.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by XedtheLine
Thanks for all the replies folks, but my questions have not been answered yet. Let me state it this way:
Why does Jaguar race with the Cosworth V-10 engine, besides the obvious fact that Ford owns Jag? Is there no one besides Tom Walkinshaw who is capable of producing a valid "Jaguar" powerplant? Did Ford know they were going to have a pathetic record the next decade, so they said let's just pawn it off on Jaguar? And while I'm thinking of it, what does the "R" stand for in R3? Racing or rotten?

Thanks,

X

Well, Cosworth has been in motorsports, particularly F1, for decades and has a distinguished reputation. When "Ford" dropped out of F1 when they renamed the team "Jaguar," perhaps they wanted to keep an established name associated with the team.

As for the "R" designation, look no further than the company's production cars. The "R" moniker been used in recent years to designate the company's "sport" variations from their standard versions, i.e. "XJ-R," "XK-R," etc.

[Melbourne Park]

written by ChuiMy concept [ill-chosen words actually] would necessitate another 2 seater that carries an inline 6 and V-12 engine. This car should be able to run with a 996 Carrera and BMW M3. This car should also compete in GT racing to rekindle the "youthful, exhuberant" customer base that every car maker wishes to entice. Jaguar [as did every other Euro luxury car maker] made it's name in the heat of competition. Some, like Ferrari, chose F1 as the venue. Others chose Sportscar and GT Racing. I think Jaguar and Aston should continue else they become inflexible, iconic representations of some measure of personal wealth.

Chui I wrote a long reply and then realised you have a powerfull argument.

But with a few things I am not so comfortable with. So I’ll list some difficult things about having Jaguar as a company that has 6 and 12 cylinder engines and races some cars in recognisable formulas:

• When Jaguar raced and won, a 6 straight 6 was a competitive way to do so; it no longer is.
• Ford don’t have any state of the art straight 6 and 12 cylinder engines;
• Ford’s luxury car culture is V configurations mostly, a straight 6 would have no drible down benefits to the rest of the Ford affiliates.
• While your concept is excellent in many ways, its fits the smaller Aston Martin much better than Jaguar.
• A cheaper high volume Aston could be made and raced; that would fit your model better, as its model mix is not as demanding as Jaguar’s.
• Sedan sales have been a major Jaguar emphasis; Ford like that aspect, which doesn’t really fit your model;
• Ford want lots from Jag.: a rear drive standard; a luxury standard; a European luxury presence. And other things, it’s a complex mix.
• To fight the Germans in Europe, a straight six isn’t a sure bet; I’d bet the Ford/Jag engine wouldn’t be as good as the competitions straight 6s. So why not differentiate and having something different?

Concerning racing, its nice to have recognisable models in local forms of racing; but F1 offers a lot of notoriety to customers who are not F1 aficionados; there’s an argument that not being in F1 is unwise for a major manufacturer; Jag is a way to be there, without taking it too seriously or to heart.

Seriousness from Ford is a major issue IMO. How does Ford see Jaguar's role I wonder? Grace Space and Pace used to be the Jag mission; Pace is easily avialable nowdays and isn't so wondrous, and Space can mean a lot of things; Grace is now out of date. The world’s changed. Jaguar needs a clearer mission for Ford to make it work, and so far, Ford haven’t given it that. Without a clearer mission, racing etc. can only ever be a sideshow ...

[vroom-vroom]

R is for Reissler

[flyer72]

Cosworth is a pretty old company and have been owned by Vickers, Audi and Ford. But the problem is that this engineering team isn't used to the extent that it could by Ford. Why the V10 sold to Arrows are labeled Cosworth instead of Ford is a Q to me. Everyone knows that they are Cosworth but from a marketing stand point - why not use Ford???? Or even Volvo or something....

Marketing potential lost IMO.

Cosworth used to modify Ford cars for public sale - I am not aware of any models offered that are offered with Cosworth mods right now but I believe there used to be a Sierra Cosworth model.

Why not a super Jaguar limited edition modified by Cosworth? It is a great engineering company and should be used to its fullest by the owners...

[vroom-vroom]

Originally posted by flyer72
Marketing potential lost IMO.

Don't you think Ford's top brass must be high fiving each other for NOT having used the brand name Ford as part of the Jag fiasco?

[Chui]

• When Jaguar raced and won, a 6 straight 6 was a competitive way to do so; it no longer is.

I think a 4.0L straight six could be very competitive in GT racing. Especially when you mate it to a lightweight balanced chassis. It would be very torquey and perhaps it would be down on peak power to a 4.0L V8 a la BMW, but it should be a match for the GT Porsches.

• Ford don’t have any state of the art straight 6 and 12 cylinder engines;
• Ford’s luxury car culture is V configurations mostly, a straight 6 would have no dribble down benefits to the rest of the Ford affiliates.

Unfortunately, $$$ are prohibitive, but if Aston is to keep it's current V-12 heritage [as well as Jag] a new V-12 must be considered at some point in the future. It would be just as easy [well, not quite as I am oversimplifying] to develop the Inline 6 at the same time.

Actually, it would as Ford of Australia also uses an inline 6 powerplant and I'd much prefer the inline 6 to a V-6 of equal displacement. Offset crash, however, would be compromised so further work would have to be done offset this "minus." This block could also be used on, say, the Ford Ranger. Even firing. Torquey. Smooth. Besides, Ford once used a 4.9L straight six engine in it's F150 base pickup trucks.

The only TRUE setback would be that it would not easily lend itself to "east-west" FWD applications.

• While your concept is excellent in many ways, its fits the smaller Aston Martin much better than Jaguar.

Agreed.

• A cheaper high-volume Aston could be made and raced; that would fit your model better, as its model mix is not as demanding as Jaguar’s.

Agreed again.

• Sedan sales have been a major Jaguar emphasis; Ford like that aspect, which doesn’t really fit your model;

Unfortunately, you're correct here it seems. Unless Ford mgmnt alters it's expectations/perspective of what/who Jaguar will become my point(s) are moot.

• Ford want lots from Jag.: a rear drive standard; a luxury standard; a European luxury presence. And other things, it’s a complex mix.

I can't think of better powerplants than I-6s and V-12s for those. I'd add: BMW M3/Porsche 996/TVR Tuscan fighter into that equation as well. One cannot buy heritage and one shouldn't forget his/her own.

• To fight the Germans in Europe, a straight six isn’t a sure bet; I’d bet the Ford/Jag engine wouldn’t be as good as the competitions straight 6s. So why not differentiate and having something different?

There are some excellent V-8s being produced in Munich [BMW] right now as well. And good '12s in Stuttgart [Diamler-Benz] and Munich [BMW]. Ingoldstadt [VW Audi Group] is also producing '8s and '12s. There will always be manufacturers who are willing to spend more capital on powertrains than Ford is currently willing to. If I were in charge I'd change this for Aston and Jaguar.

Concerning racing, its nice to have recognisable models in local forms of racing; but F1 offers a lot of notoriety to customers who are not F1 aficionados; there’s an argument that not being in F1 is unwise for a major manufacturer; Jag is a way to be there, without taking it too seriously or to heart.

I'm of the opinion that while it's 'OK' to shoot one's self in the foot from time to time one should not take careful aim in the process. If you aren't there to compete for the championship then it does you much more harm than good. While everyone on the grid is trying to win some are having better results than others. If I were "The Boss" at Ford I'd simply supply powerplants to teams: McLaren and Williams, particularly, as only Ferrari [recently], McLaren [Porsche and Honda] and Williams [Honda and Renault] have put together a series of strings of wins in the last two decades.

Seriousness from Ford is a major issue IMO. How does Ford see Jaguar's role I wonder? Grace Space and Pace used to be the Jag mission; Pace is easily available nowdays and isn't so wondrous, and Space can mean a lot of things; Grace is now out of date. The world’s changed. Jaguar needs a clearer mission for Ford to make it work, and so far, Ford haven’t given it that. Without a clearer mission, racing etc. can only ever be a sideshow...

So true from my perspective.

Good analysis as usual.

[Dudley]

Cosworth is a pretty old company and have been owned by Vickers, Audi and Ford.

As far as I know the Race car bit is owned by Ford and the road car bit by Audi these days.

Anyone confirm or deny?