22 replies to this topic

[bobbo]

We are all aware of BRM's (in)famous 16 cyl. engines: supercharged 1.5 litre V16 of 1950 - 51 and the 3 litre H-16 of 1966 - 67. They also had their great 3 litre V12s, the WC-winning 1.5 litre V8 and the P25 2.5 litre In line 4.

Question: Did they design or test any other configurations? Like an interim 1.5 Litre L4?? 2.5 litre 6?? Anything?? And if so, what happened to them??

I suppose this need not be limited to F1 engines, either.

Go to it, friends!!

Bobbo

[Vitesse2]

BRM did build an engine for F2 in 1966, which would have been a 4-cylinder, but what configuration I'm not sure - Flat 4? Ken Tyrrell's Matra International and John Coombs (also Matras) ran them for part of the season, but both switched to Cosworths later in the year.

[Doug Nye]

Nope - in-line 4 - effectively one half of the 1500cc V8 slightly enlarged, and with - as it turned out -infelicitously chosen bore/stroke dimensions. Known as the P80 unit.

DCN

[Vitesse2]

Close but no cigar then ...

[bobbo]

Doug:

So I finally sucked you into this thread!! I had hoped you would get involved and share your sincerely appreciated knowledge (and humor!) with this topic!

Bless you!!

Bobbo

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
.....infelicitously chosen bore/stroke dimensions. Known as the P80 unit.

Was it not the bore/stroke of the first BRM Tasman engines (ignoring the big fours, of course...), so being a bank of a Stewart/Hill 1966 Tasman engine? I realise this was merely a stretch of the 1.5, but I'm questioning the bore and stroke situation...

And was this corrected in the 1967 Tasman cars, which went out to 2071cc or something in that area?

Compared to the SCA, it was a little gem of an engine, deserving better than it got. Of course, all of them met their match with the Hondas.

One of the Coopers was brought out here by Alan Cruikshank about twenty years ago... it was on display only at Phillip Island, however, and I happened to take a pic...



I believe the drain plugs are removed in the event one wants to fire it... this car does race in Historic events.

[Doug Nye]

Umm - lovely little engine, nowhere as successful either commercially or in competition against the Cosworth SCA - and then the Honda - as BRM would have hoped. And I'm really sorry but please wait for Volume 2 to read about it in further detail...

DCN

[Frank de Jong]

In my records, the first Tasman engine had 71,7 bore and 59,18 stroke (1916 cc), the 2070 cc version 74,63 x 59,18. For the F2 engine, the dimensions I know are 71,8 x 61,6 (998 cc), so a different stroke. I stumbled across 71,0 x 59,18 for the Felday 4-BRM sports car of 1966, but this could perhaps be a type error.
A genuine 2-litre was used by Matra in its M 630-BRM (73,3 x 59,18, 1998 cc), this engine seems to be used in the Nomad-BMR Mk2 and Mk3 as well.
Finally, BRM tuned the Lotus-Ford twin cam engine, as used in some Group 2 and group 5 cortina's and the Lotus 26R GT car.

[Ray Bell]

An interesting feature is that it reverts to the crossflow style of the earlier V8s, not having the vertical inlet ports that featured in the V8 when this one came out.

I guess that wasn't necessary for packaging as it was in the F1 car...

Wasn't the Felday a V8 too?

[Frank de Jong]

All the engines I mentioned were V8's, apart from the 998 F2 engine and the Lotus-Ford TC engine.

[bobbo]

SOmewhere in that dustbin of memory, I vaguely recall that BRM also tuned engines for Lotus Elans. Anyone else remember that?

Bobbo

[Frank de Jong]

Err... the Lotus 26R was the code for the racing version of the Elan; your memory seems to be OK.

[Roger Clark]

Tony Rudd's book "It Was Fun" contains some interesting information about BRM engines:

"It took me a very long while to understand the reason for the power differences from the various so-called 2 litres. The best 1930cc gave 262 hp which is 136.6 hp/litre, the 1998s gave 129 hp per litre, with 258 hp, yet the 2070s gave 287 hp which is 139 hp per litre. Alex Osborn's 997cc F2 engine gave 129 hp per litre...I began to suspect the the ratio of connecting rod length to the stroke was more important than we thought. We cut 0.5 inch from the block of Frank Strake's F2 engine and fitted it with the shorter connecting rods from the F1 engines. fitted with the standard head the power went from 128 hp to 136 hp, which explained the dissapointing performance of the F2 engine and the 1998cc V8s. THe 2070cc engines had a longer stroke, hence the 139 hp per litre."

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Umm - lovely little engine, nowhere as successful either commercially or in competition against the Cosworth SCA - and then the Honda - as BRM would have hoped. And I'm really sorry but please wait for Volume 2 to read about it in further detail...

DCN

Back last summer (here anyway!) we had a stimulating little discussion about what a BRM P80 actually was, prompted by a quiz compiled by Bernd. If it's not going to pre-empt Vol 2 too much, Doug, perhaps you could shed a little light and correct any mistakes in what was discussed - I've just re-read it and we never really reached a conclusion. It boiled down to me saying one thing and Don saying another ....

http://www.atlasf1.c...0&highlight=P80

[Doug Nye]

Oh dear - P-numbers. Let's try Ferrari's - it's so much simpler, retrospective P1, then P2, P3, P4, P5...

P75 was the overall H16 engine programme - P80 was the overall 1-litre F2 engine programme -

P for 'Project' numbers varied, changing from original British Motor Racing Research Trust days to Owen Racing Organisation times. P numbers under ORO largely satisfied the accounts department, who then knew what to charge against what undertaking...

Deep breath -

P10 was anything to do with the original toolroom when established a Bourne.
P11 anything to do with the drawing offices
P12 Stores
P13 Inspection
P14 Transport general
P15 - wait for it.... Transport racing! (I await your letters)
P16 commercial
P17 development - and so on and on and on.

Oddballs include P24 "750cc supercharged engine" - the brief consideration of adopting such an option for the 1954-57 Formula 1, a V8 based on the V16.

P28 was the Ford Zephyr engine conversion Mark I and P29 ditto Mark II - the famous 'Raymond Mays head' etc.

P38 was Shorrocks Burner

P52 was the project allocated to the 1959 Cooper-BRM.

P60 was the overal 2-litre V8 programme

P63 the Rover turbine engine frame

P66 Ford Anglia, Classic and Cortina conversion

P69 - aah, now that's interesting....the Indy car....

P84 - Ford Lotus-Cortina engine

P93 - 2-litre V6 engine (Lotus)

P95 4-valve development

P96 - 4.2-litre engine (guess where for)

P100 - 2-litre Matra engine

P112 - Chrysler Barracuda engine - anybody know about that one?

P125 - Lotus-Cortina engine for the Mike Spence Elan

P140 - Gurney Eagle engine tests (ask Justin???)

P149 - Chaparral Chevrolet engine

P159 - Snow-mobile

P169 - Super Vee VW engine

P173 - Formula Ford 1971

P175 - hold your beath ......flat-12 engine.

P184 - 1972 Car Formula 1 Flat 12

P215 - BRM sidecar project

P502 - Pedal car general

P504 - golf trolley

P516 - BRM clothing

P521 - Anti-Theft nut (I don't know what his name might have been...)

P530 - Mobile Operating Theatres (Commercial).

Is this sufficient to be going on with?

DCN

[ensign14]

Doug, I think I can speak for all of us in saying that we are DYING to get our hands on BRM volume 2 (and 3, as it has come to that).

We are desperate to read about the ultimate high of the one and only World Championship, the controversy surrounding the conclusion to 1964, the conflict (if there were one) between Surtees and Rudd and - with a tear in the eye - the sad, slow decline.

But, more importantly, there is a matter which transcends mere Formula 1 immortals. I am sure EVERYONE wants to hear about the BRM golf trolley...

(Surely the P15 was the Mays F1 car? )

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by ensign14

But, more importantly, there is a matter which transcends mere Formula 1 immortals. I am sure EVERYONE wants to hear about the BRM golf trolley...

The rear axle broke on the first tee.

[Mattthecat]

So far so logical

Paul Sheldon gives three digit numbers for the P25 engine though (256, 257, 258 and 259).
Can't be a "running number" for the engines as two drivers were using the same one in the race.
Any enlightenment on that one?

[angst]

Very interested to find out more about the P175/P184 F12. P69/P96 Indycar project. P24 V8 750cc s/c. How far developed were these projects? I'm going to have to get saving. There's going to be some serious book buying necessary soon, and I know these volumes don't come cheap.

When, and for what, was the P100 (Matra 2.0 litre) developed? Was it a V8?

[conjohn]

Originally posted by Mattthecat
So far so logical

Paul Sheldon gives three digit numbers for the P25 engine though (256, 257, 258 and 259).
Can't be a "running number" for the engines as two drivers were using the same one in the race.
Any enlightenment on that one?

256 is the P25 engine from 1956, 257 the one from 1957, and so on... pretty logical.

If it is correct is another matter - Doug Nye in The Book(s) calls them just P25. However, the individual blocks are called e.g. 252 (1955), 2561 (1956), 2574 (1957), 2582 (1958) and 2591 (1959-1961). Either no new blocks were made in 1960 and 1961, or they realized the folly of having logic in identities... Anyway, I think that's were Sheldon got his engine nomenclature from.

[Mattthecat]

Makes sense. Why didn't I think of that....Lol
Thx

[Macca]

But, more importantly, there is a matter which transcends mere Formula 1 immortals. I am sure EVERYONE wants to hear about the BRM golf trolley...

It had 16 wheels.........................




Presumably the Matra 2-litre V8 differed from the Tasman engine in some way due to being meant to run for 24 hours?




Paul M

[angst]

Originally posted by Macca



It had 16 wheels.........................




Presumably the Matra 2-litre V8 differed from the Tasman engine in some way due to being meant to run for 24 hours?




Paul M

That's what I was wondering about (no, not the sixteen wheeler ;) ) - whether the Matra 2.0 litre was ust the project number for the brm V8 used in Matra's sportscar program or whether it was a specific and seperate Matra 2.0 litre motor.