19 replies to this topic

[jamestcinnyc]

This is my first post although I have been reading these boards for some time and I would like to thank all of you for your informed and valuable comments.

I am interested in discussing in detail the differences b/w the f2001c and f2002. For example I would like to know if the f2001c uses the same engine as the f2002 and if not what the hp difference may be. Also, I know the gearbox is different but what impact will that have on the car.

Finally, it seems Ferrari have developed their breaking system over the winter but I don't know how. I think the breakes have made a big difference to the f2001.

Thoughts? Ideas?

[Mrv]

Welcome James to Atlas first of all. The F2001C and the F2002 are very different cars. The F2002 is a revolutionary design with the radical back end where the 051 and the new gearbox are housed. The unit (Engine and Gearbox are a unitary system) with alot of differences in design between the standard 051 spec engine and gearbox in the F2001. Ferrari have different spec engine designs. They have a 051A spec which is the engine in the F2001, but the F2002 has the real or should I say fully developed 051 engine in it. Ferrari can not use the F2002 engine or its Gearbox for the F2001 because of the design of the back end. The F2002 051 engine has 10 to 15 Hp more than the 051A. Ferrari also have a qualifying spec engine which is slightly less powerful than the 051 in the F2002. The same thing can be said about the gearbox. There is the standard new version in the F2001 and then there is the radical and much smaller gearbox in the F2002 The design of the F2002 with its radical back end and engine and gearbox combo gives the F2002 better stabilty and a low center of gravity. Ferrari introduced a new brake design last year on the F2001 where outside air was routed in away that would help cool the brakes. This year Ferrari have taken this system and improved it to another level. I am not sure what they have done at the moment.

[skylark68]

Hello James and welcome.

I can explain it this way:

The F2001C and the F2002 are very different cars. The F2002 is a revolutionary design with the radical back end where the 051 and the new gearbox are housed. The unit (Engine and Gearbox are a unitary system) with alot of differences in design between the standard 051 spec engine and gearbox in the F2001. Ferrari have different spec engine designs. They have a 051A spec which is the engine in the F2001, but the F2002 has the real or should I say fully developed 051 engine in it. Ferrari can not use the F2002 engine or its Gearbox for the F2001 because of the design of the back end. The F2002 051 engine has 10 to 15 Hp more than the 051A. Ferrari also have a qualifying spec engine which is slightly less powerful than the 051 in the F2002. The same thing can be said about the gearbox. There is the standard new version in the F2001 and then there is the radical and much smaller gearbox in the F2002 The design of the F2002 with its radical back end and engine and gearbox combo gives the F2002 better stabilty and a low center of gravity. Ferrari introduced a new brake design last year on the F2001 where outside air was routed in away that would help cool the brakes. This year Ferrari have taken this system and improved it to another level. I am not sure what they have done at the moment. (thanks Mrv!!!! )

Actually, let me put it to you this way: the F2001 is faster than all of the cars on the grid, as evidenced by 2 poles for MS.

The F2002 is even faster, meaning Mclaren, in particular, and Williams, more generally, are screwed.

That's about the best way for me to describe the situation as it stands. This means, the only real contender this year to MS is JPM (matbe RB) and until we see what happens tomorrow, we won't know how much of a contender the other drivers really are. But, I suspect JPM will fair okay... But it will be a Ferarrri walk, barring a miracle.

[Williams]

Welcome aboard jamestcinnyc.

Very nice summary on the F200X Mrv and Skylark.;) Do you know anything about how close the F2002 might to readiness ?

[Mrv]

Originally posted by skylark68
Hello James and welcome.

I can explain it this way: (thanks Mrv!!!! )

Actually, let me put it to you this way: the F2001 is faster than all of the cars on the grid, as evidenced by 2 poles for MS.

The F2002 is even faster, meaning Mclaren, in particular, and Williams, more generally, are screwed.

That's about the best way for me to describe the situation as it stands. This means, the only real contender this year to MS is JPM (matbe RB) and until we see what happens tomorrow, we won't know how much of a contender the other drivers really are. But, I suspect JPM will fair okay... But it will be a Ferarrri walk, barring a miracle.

Use my posts again and I will get you a job to push DC when his car breaks down.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by Williams
Welcome aboard jamestcinnyc.

Very nice summary on the F200X Mrv and Skylark. Do you know anything about how close the F2002 might to readiness ?

I will let Skylark answer this one. Apparently he is my new assistant at Atlas, and were going to have to change his name to MRV2. Oh know not another one.

The F2002 will be tested at Barcelona with Rubens on Tuesday I believe. Yes Rubens finaly gets to try it out. Todt says that it depends on the tests in Spain if they are going to use it. IMO I don't think they will use it until Imola are slightly after that race. Today's race is important, if Ferrari can score a win I have a feeling they will keep it parked still. Brazil is very rough on cars so it might not be such a good idea to try it their in a race.

[Williams]

On the other hand if they rack up another win, Brazil might be a good way to give the '2 a really good test. But I agree, I think they will wait until Europe to bring on the new car, since it will be easier to do any required modifications close to home.

[skylark68]

I was going to answer your query Williams, but I see that Mrv has given you the detail I would have provided.

It must be the time of the day, waiting for this race to begin.

[stenney]

Originally posted by skylark68
Hello James and welcome.

Actually, let me put it to you this way: the F2001 is faster than all of the cars on the grid, as evidenced by 2 poles for MS.

The F2002 is even faster, meaning Mclaren, in particular, and Williams, more generally, are screwed.

I think you're stretching a bit assuming that the F2002 is faster out of the box than everything else on the grid. Look at what Williams did this weekend and JPM's comments about changing everything on the car. This is where Ferrari has an advantage with the F2001 because they know the car so well and how it responds to adjustments. Time will tell ultimately if the F2002 is a revolutionary improvement over the rest of the grid. It might take some steps back to begin to move forward. In other works, they might bring the F2002 to Brazil and not dominate. Then Ferrari will be faced with learning a new car. It looks to me like Williams is finding a better car as they work with it. McLaren may have a good chassis and lack power, we'll see. If, in fact, Williams does well in the race I suspect Ferrari will not wait any longer to bring out the F2002 and the F2001 will be done. Nothing like racing develops the car. It's very interesting to watch.

Glad you joined us James!

[skylark68]

Originally posted by stenney


I think you're stretching a bit assuming that the F2002 is faster out of the box than everything else on the grid. Look at what Williams did this weekend and JPM's comments about changing everything on the car. This is where Ferrari has an advantage with the F2001 because they know the car so well and how it responds to adjustments. Time will tell ultimately if the F2002 is a revolutionary improvement over the rest of the grid. It might take some steps back to begin to move forward. In other works, they might bring the F2002 to Brazil and not dominate. Then Ferrari will be faced with learning a new car. It looks to me like Williams is finding a better car as they work with it. McLaren may have a good chassis and lack power, we'll see. If, in fact, Williams does well in the race I suspect Ferrari will not wait any longer to bring out the F2002 and the F2001 will be done. Nothing like racing develops the car. It's very interesting to watch.

Glad you joined us James!

I would agree with you but for 3 points:

1) The 2002 is well enough along, I suspect, that race shakedowns will not be a factor. They are overtesting the 2002 because of the success if the 2001.

2) Willimas should, theoretically, be better than Ferrari right now - it is in this light, and the testing scenarios fo the 2002, that also leads me to believe the 2002 will be faster out of the box.

3) The same for McLaren, as #2. Given testing, I thought Mclaren would come smoking out of the box but they have been rather disappointing, meaning, again, the 2002 should be faster than them, out of the box so to speak.

In other words, the 2002 is well tested (the engine configuartion was announced, or leaked, about mid way into the season meaning lots of testing had occured and is occuring) and the fact that I think Mclaren lacks this year and Williams, although better than Mclaren, are also lacking.

[stenney]

Originally posted by skylark68


I would agree with you but for 3 points:

1) The 2002 is well enough along, I suspect, that race shakedowns will not be a factor. They are overtesting the 2002 because of the success if the 2001.

2) Willimas should, theoretically, be better than Ferrari right now - it is in this light, and the testing scenarios fo the 2002, that also leads me to believe the 2002 will be faster out of the box.

3) The same for McLaren, as #2. Given testing, I thought Mclaren would come smoking out of the box but they have been rather disappointing, meaning, again, the 2002 should be faster than them, out of the box so to speak.

In other words, the 2002 is well tested (the engine configuartion was announced, or leaked, about mid way into the season meaning lots of testing had occured and is occuring) and the fact that I think Mclaren lacks this year and Williams, although better than Mclaren, are also lacking.

1) We'll see whether testing has developed the F2002 and/or it is a good as they want to believe it is.

2) I don't agree that the new cars Williams and McLaren should be better than the F2001 right away. They could need some race development and the F2001 has been advanced over the Suzuka spec, so it's not really the old car some people want to describe it as.

3) The Williams design might be too conservative. Patrick Head has acknowledged as much, but we'll see what they can do with it. Patrick has also described the new McLaren as a step forward or at least it seems to be. Is the Mercedes engine really that far down on power?

[skylark68]

Originally posted by stenney
They could need some race development and the F2001 has been advanced over the Suzuka spec, so it's not really the old car some people want to describe it as.

That, is absolute fact and it is quite a feat that people belive it is "last year's car."

[stenney]

Originally posted by skylark68


That, is absolute fact and it is quite a feat that people belive it is "last year's car."

Just looking at the warmup times the F2001 has done well. I've been wondering all day if the Williams has a good race, does it spell the end of the F2001. No denying it's an excellent platform. The F2001 gives Ferrari the luxury of trying something very exotic in the F2002. Sometimes steps forward take steps back first.

Can the F2001 give the F2002 enough time to be fully developed under testing?
How long can Ferrari extend the wait?

I hope we have a good competitive race.

[LMG]

Mrv, Skylark and others:

Do you expect Ferrari running a F2001c / F2002 combination (both cars) at Brazil or Imola?

[stenney]

Originally posted by LMG
Mrv, Skylark and others:

Do you expect Ferrari running a F2001c / F2002 combination (both cars) at Brazil or Imola?

If Brazil is more suitable to Williams than Sepang and perhaps San Marino is even more that direction, it looks to me like the signals are there for the F2002 ASAP.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by LMG
Mrv, Skylark and others:

Do you expect Ferrari running a F2001c / F2002 combination (both cars) at Brazil or Imola?

That is an option that they do have. IMO once they go with the F2002 it will be with 2 of them. However you never know what Ferrari is really up to. It is hard to say which route they will take. I still believe that they will not use it at Brazil.

[tifoso]

Welcome aboard...

Since Mrv and Skylark68 have done such a great job, I'll just add what I read about the brakes in the latest issue of F1 Magazine:

Much development during the 2001 season centered on the Ferrari pioneered "drum/barrel/turbo" brake duct. The role of this type of duct is almost the opposite of that of a normal brake duct, as a higher temperature is generated in the center of the wheel, which would normally be catastrophic. The value of this system is that the drum almost completely seals the air gap between the wheel and the duct. This ensures that only a very small percentage of the turbulent air from the rotating wheel-center can interfere with the cooler, clean-flowing air that is making its way to the car's downforce-generating underbody. In effect, the duct is a sealing disc. It only became possible to use this system with the availability of improved carbon-fiber brake materials, which have the ability to withstand higher temperatures. The objective is to force the turbulent air to exit through the outer face of the wheel, away from the underbody airflow. It took a long time to perfect the system as other items such as wheel-bearing grease and seals had to be upgraded. The rewards were a significant improvement in downforce and in aerodynamic efficiency.

[Nikolas Garth]

My guesstimate is that Ferrari will wait till Imola before using the F2002.

[berge]

Originally posted by Mrv




Use my posts again and I will get you a job to push DC when his car breaks down.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Originally posted by stenney


This is where Ferrari has an advantage with the F2001 because they know the car so well and how it responds to adjustments. Time will tell ultimately if the F2002 is a revolutionary improvement over the rest of the grid. It might take some steps back to begin to move forward. In other works, they might bring the F2002 to Brazil and not dominate. Then Ferrari will be faced with learning a new car.

You have a point regarding Ferrari having to learn their new car, but that's exactly why I think that the F2002 will debut in Imola, where they had an three-day sassion just before the start of the season. If the new car actually races there, they will surely have a lot less set-up problems to deal with than they would have in Brazil.