54 replies to this topic

[GL*]

I know that current F1 cars are not designed for oval racing, but do you think in order to popularize F1 in the U.S., it would be a good idea to have one oval race on the schedule in the U.S.? They really seem to like their oval racing and the shape of the track facilitates good spectator viewing and large attendance. Personally, I don't think I'd mind one oval race on the calendar but anything more would be overkill. It'd be interesting to see Schumacher go at it wheel to wheel with Montoya and Villeneuve, considering Michael has made comments about oval racing being too dangerous whereas Montoya and Villeneuve are past Indy 500 winners. I wonder if he'd give it his all.

[Estwald]

Should they: Absolutely Not
Who wants to see the best cars in the world doing ovals

Would they: NO

[StickShift]

No. It couldn't even be done. Formula 1 engines can not endure such prolonged open throttle. Not even 1 car would finish. As well, from my understanding, The cars would need signifcant changes in the aerodynamics to keep them glued to the corners in such high speed corners.

Safety is a major factor as well. Formula 1 cars are not designed in safety to hit a concrete retaining wall at 200 mph like a Cart or IRL car is. Ichael Schumacher and Mika Hakkinen have also said that they will never risk their lives by being in an oval race at Indy 2000. They feel the racing is too much of a risk.


Oh yeah, Oval Racing sucks anyways! The day I see F1 doing a completly oval race is the day I gouge my eyes out with a pair of chopsticks!

/edit: Blunt Chopsticks.

[Tripp_Ruding]

im not completely sure, but i think this has come up before in another thread.

to me, i dont think the engines would be able to handle it, for one. sure if you put them on a short track they might have a chance, but in my honest yet limited opinion it doesnt seem feasible.

and to even think about putting them somewhere like daytona, talladega, or california.... i doubt those little suckers would make it halfway. even in the best case with the 2001 spec ferrari engine, i doubt the horse could prance all the way to the checkered flag.

and one more thing.... are the chassis (plural??) capable of withstanding running full on into a concrete retaining wall?? considering that if you even so much as fart on them they will drop a wing, it looks to be impossible.

but a good idea nonetheless. maybe most will disagree. and even though i am no fan of oval racing, it would be interesting to see it.

maybe bring the drivers but leave the cars... TG would love to have some F1 talent come over and have a crack at it. i would love it too. after last years 500, when not a single IRL driver finished on the lead lap, something tells me shmichael would be in the post race press conference while most others would still be calculating pit strategy.



III

[Haz 2]

Sure it could be done, they already have the track ready (the indy speedway).

As for engines, all they would have to do is reduce the revs and put in some super tall gears and the engines should be able to make it. As for aerodynamics, they would need to reduce not increase the downforce. Cart use superspeedway wings which are way smaller then road course wings. I don't think it would be tough for the teams to come up with low downforce wings for a one off race.

The only problem is safety, I doubt an F1 car is strong enough for an oval crash.

However, I'd LOVE to see the F1 guys on an oval. If any drivers are too chicken **** to drive (like Michael) they can stay home and let the real men race (like Montoya).

[StickShift]

Again. Even if they did race. It would be the most lopsided race of the season. You talk about MS, JV and JPM dicing it? Yeah right...

This race would seperate the cars so much. It would require no driver skill. It would all be about who has the best aerodynamic package and strongest engine. And I can assure that if a race did happen on an oval, the standings would like:

1. Driver A, Team A
2. Driver B, Team A
3. Driver C, Team B
4. Driver D, Team B
5. Driver E, Team C
6. Driver F, Team C
7. Driver G, Team D
8. Driver H, Team D


It would just be a procession of team mates. No excitement at all.

[The Kanisteri]

Huh!
Is there any other so stupid racing format than driving circle on ovals?
Feck the ovals.

[OssieFan]

Originally posted by GL*
I know that current F1 cars are not designed for oval racing, but do you think in order to popularize F1 in the U.S., it would be a good idea to have one oval race on the schedule in the U.S

No way, if the US can't digest F1 as it is then that is there problem, I think having it at Indy is enough

[30ft penguin]

No, definitely NOT. I mean, this is like asking "should F1 do a Paris-Dakar-like race?" ...

F1 has nothing to do with oval racing, and I definitely want it to stay that way. Oval races are for the fans of the oval-racing series, and F1 races are for F1 fans. If many of the US racing fans prefer oval races, then F1 is not for them. Bad luck. What's the use of introducing oval races to "lure" them? We want them to like F1 and watch it, so why lure them with something which is not what F1 is about? "hey, I DID like this oval race, I think I will start watching F1." - "Erhm, you know - F1 usually DOES NOT do oval races ..." - "Oh. Now when's the next NASCAR race ..."

[Mat]

I'm going to go against the trend and say that it would be great to add an oval to the schedule. But there is only one oval worth doing it at:

Indianapolis.

[MrAerodynamicist]

I'd say no. I'm happy to watch oval racing but I prefer a decent road course any day of the week!

[HelsinkiGP]

Should not.
Oval racing is different brand.

[mono-posto]

With some exceptions, most racing fans can be classified as 'oval' fans or 'road racing' fans.
I happen to be one of the latter. My brother-in-law is of the former variety.
I will never like oval racing and he will never be into road racing.

F1 is 100%, died in the wool, a world class ROAD RACING series. There is no need what so ever to try and cross breed the two disciplines.

For what purpose? To get more Americans into F1? Or to further Bernies estate? I don't have an interest in doing either.

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by StickShift
Oval Racing sucks anyways!

You must be thinking of different type of Oval racing to me.

Originally posted by StickShift
This race would seperate the cars so much. It would require no driver skill. It would all be about who has the best aerodynamic package and strongest engine. And I can assure that if a race did happen on an oval, the standings would like:

1. Driver A, Team A
2. Driver B, Team A
3. Driver C, Team B
4. Driver D, Team B
5. Driver E, Team C
6. Driver F, Team C
7. Driver G, Team D
8. Driver H, Team D


It would just be a procession of team mates. No excitement at all.

Whats the difference between that and current F1?

Originally posted by The Kanisteri
Is there any other so stupid racing format than driving circle on ovals?
Feck the ovals.

Yes, i belive they have names such as - Grand Prix, Rally, Motorcross, etc.....



I am a fan of Oval racing and circuit racing. I don't like one more than the other.

I dont think F1 would be any good on an oval for most of the reasons stated above -
1) The cars arent built for it,
2) Theres not enough similarity in the cars.
3) Tom Walkinshaw would hire Al Unser Jr. and Billy Boat for one GP evey year

Leave the ovals for the guys who know what they're doing.
And the Anti-Ovalists, just think - "If they werent racing on Ovals, F1 would be".

[GL*]

Well to be honest I'm not a big fan of the ovals either. That being said, the idea of one oval race on the F1 calendar seems intriguiging to me.

Truthfully, I just figured that since this was the world driver's championship, that it should include as many diverse challenging courses (within reason) that exist. Obviously, I wouldn't expect the WDC to consist of rallying events, but as far as car-on-pavement racing, I think an oval is not only par for the course, but it is awkward to not have given this is a world driver's championship.

I just think it's a bit hypocritical for us F1 fans to dismiss IRL drivers as being the best drivers around because all they do is oval-racing, while we tout F1 drivers as the best drivers around when all they do are road courses. And no, not for a second am I going to try to argue IRL drivers are the best (I'm not crazy!), but maybe, just maybe they could outperform an F1 driver on the ovals. To me, IRL is too one-dimensional when it comes to driving talent, whereas F1 is more multi-dimensional in its challenges to drivers. That being said, one thing missing from F1's list of challenges is an oval course race. Essentially, with one oval-course added to the calendar, I think F1 fans could justifiably claim that F1 drivers were bar-none the most talented and best drivers in the world. There wouldn't be any paved course that they couldn't drive on, and drive on well.

[Zmeej]

IMO, fix the F1 Indy circuit first (vide Jacques' comments of years previous).

I'm of two minds about this:
1. Schumi and Mika are right about the need for total car redesign for the oval. Therefore, this would require huge expenses for the teams (methought we were against this...), for a single occasion. Also, which GP star was it who said: "What's the big deal? Just turn left, turn left, turn left, turn left."?

2. Seeing the best drivers in the world go full throttle for this long and this much would be a sensory overload. Like having a huge steak dinner after living on "mets raffines" all your life. Hearing Iggy and the Stooges "Raw Power" after a lifetime of Mozart. It would be different...

[Andre]

NO! F1 cars are not designed to withstand a direct hit on wall at the speeds achieved on an oval. One of the reasons why champcars and indycars are much heavier than a F1 is the extra protection needed to race on ovals. Maybe a cleveland type track, but with a square shaped layout would work, but I'm not sure if such track would be classified as a real oval.

[aportinga]

The should just make Indy WDC points again - only double the amout handed out.

20
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[BMW FW22]

NO !

Schumacher showed us yesterday he is not a close racer

i swear that 50% would crash..

[Linus27]

NO BLOODY WAY. If American's want to watch ovel racing then go to Cart or Nascar but not F1. ****, they call football Soccer, next they will change Formula 1 to some other name just to try and make it there own. If F1 is not popular in the US because it lacks an Oval then that says it all for me. Maybe we can get some chearleaders and all eat hamburgers if that makes it more popular.

[Andre]

NO BLOODY WAY. If American's want to watch ovel racing then go to Cart or Nascar but not F1. ****, they call football Soccer, next they will change Formula 1 to some other name just to try and make it there own

haha! They call football, soccer and that game which the players hold the ball with their hands, football.

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by Linus27
Maybe we can get some chearleaders and all eat hamburgers if that makes it more popular.

mostly useless ideas, but hamburgers, and cheerleaders!! I think we're on to something here. If only GP's had pretty women, and you could buy a burger, I think F1 would be more polular than NASCAR even if there was only one race a year the the states, without a US driver, or team even.

[Keith_Jagrs]

Originally posted by Linus27
NO BLOODY WAY. If American's want to watch ovel racing then go to Cart or Nascar but not F1. ****, they call football Soccer, next they will change Formula 1 to some other name just to try and make it there own. If F1 is not popular in the US because it lacks an Oval then that says it all for me. Maybe we can get some chearleaders and all eat hamburgers if that makes it more popular.

[Zmeej]

Bravo André!
You win the "I'm so Bored of the U.S.A." prize for March!! (and it ain't even over yet...)

[mhferrari]

I hope Formula One never holds an oval race. The only oval race near to the quality of Formula One is the Indianapolis 500, and now that for forty years Formula One has been established on road courses, it should stay the same with no exceptions.

I would like to see Formula One drivers at Indianapolis though.

[MONTOYASPEED]

No, and I am glad they won't/wouldn't do it.

[The Voice of Reason]

OK, I'm stepping up to be the dissenting voice. I think there should be an oval race (maybe even two) in F1 and here's why.

One of best things about CART (stop sniggering at the back!) is that they race on different types of circuit: street circuits, road courses and ovals. That means that to win the championship a driver must be flexible enough to have a range of different styles of driving under his belt.

By the way, for those many who at oval racing, did any of you see the duel between JPM and Michael Andretti at Michigan in 2000? Jeez, I can count the number of F1 races that have been that exciting on the fingers of one hand - and most of those races were championship deciders! I was on my feet screaming at the TV and that hasn't happened often.

[lateralforce]

Originally posted by Linus27
NO BLOODY WAY. If American's want to watch ovel racing then go to Cart or Nascar but not F1. ****, they call football Soccer, next they will change Formula 1 to some other name just to try and make it there own. If F1 is not popular in the US because it lacks an Oval then that says it all for me. Maybe we can get some chearleaders and all eat hamburgers if that makes it more popular.

Hehe.....they drive on parkways and park on driveways. No wonder they race on ovals.....

Oopss i might upset my farmer neighbors!!

[Daemon]

No. I for one would not watch it. And I doubt the majority of people following F1 would. Why anyone want's to watch cars going around and around and around in a circle for a few hundred kms is beyond me. Leave that to race horses who don't understand the finer points of racing.

The fastest car would easily win, and with the differing rules regarding yellow flags, there would be no convenient excuse to close the pack up, and it would simply be a procession of moving billboards.

This is not a dig at CART, which I watch when they race on street circuits, but at ovals alone. They're a waste if space, and dangerous to boot.

[BlackCat]

Yes.
I'd like to see WDC/WCC points given for the real Indy 500 - again. It was quite voluntary to participate. But the mickey-mouse track through the golf course called Indy F1 is ridiculous.

[ray b]

realy think a modern F-1 is weaker than black jacks cooper back in 62????
or jim clarks lotus?????or lola's or mac's indy cars???
both F-1 stars and cars have run indy
WON IT TOOOOO!!!!!!
cosworth toy and honda do know how to make a motor run 500 miles
so does ilmore when called a chevy or merc
other can learn
nasty car guys call indy a 4 corner road course
RUN THE REAL INDY TRACK NOT THE GOLFCART TRACK
or are they chicken????

[nordschleife]

A car that races on an oval must be built to give the driver a reasonable chance of survival. To maximize the car's efficiency, protection in F1 is found outside the car in the form of gravel traps, deformable barriers and vast run-off areas. This paring of weight aids all aspects of performance each of which is involved in roadracing unlike the artificial arena of the oval whose form is not found in the real world of driving. So get real.

[dynamite7]

YES! You could change the regulations (for ALL the races) to make the cars bulkier&heavier&safer (pro for Max Mosley is that they would be slower too), the current champ cars are bulky and handle the road courses more than resonably well.

This is meant to be the WDC to decide the best drivers in the world BUT IT'S NOT, if these are the best drivers in the world they can drive on ovals. Ovals are the absolute TECHNICAL challenge getting the lines exactly right, every 1000th of a second counts.

RANT START

it's more like the "The European Semi-International Championship for Normally Aspriated, Under 700kg Narrow Open Wheeler, Nervous Grooved Tyres Championship for Drivers who can only drove on Closed Road Courses, must live in Europe (and are NOT fast/commited at/to ovals, dirt-ovals, rally, endurance rally, endurance GT racing, endurance touring car racing, touring car racing, drag racing etc.) :

It really is NOT the world's driver championship more like "The World's Road Course Open-Wheeler Championship", many people would say that Tommi Makinen is the world's best driver not Micheal.

RANT END

[ehagar]

I don't see the point of even discussing it. An oval would not receive FIA approval for a formula one car. They are not built for ovals and are too fragile in the (inevitable) event that they will meet the wall.

I think some drivers would have reservations about it too.

Leave the ovals to series that build cars for them and for racers who have the testicular fortitude (or in Sarah Fisher's case the ovularian.... ah screw it) to drive on them.

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by Daemon
No. I for one would not watch it. And I doubt the majority of people following F1 would. Why anyone want's to watch cars going around and around and around in a circle for a few hundred kms is beyond me.

Thats what F1 fans are doing now.

The fastest car would easily win,

What's the different between than and modern F1?

it would simply be a procession of moving billboards.

What's the different between than and modern F1?

How anyone cound consider F1 racing, and IRL no racing is beyond me...

[MuMu]

One of the minimum requirements of an F1 driver is the ability to turn the steering wheel in both directions.

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by MuMu
One of the minimum requirements of an F1 driver is the ability to turn the steering wheel in both directions.

1) Whats your point?
2) Where does it say that in any of the FIA documents?

[Ghostrider]

No, the chassis of F1 cars are not built to withstand those hits, it would be far too dangerous. I don't think oval racing is that fun either.

[stevew]

Other than Villeneuve and Montoya, F1 drivers don't have the guts to run on the oval at say, Indianapolis. After all, telling an F1 driver to go into turn 1 at 235+ mph without lifting would be just too much to ask.

On the other hand, most, if not all US oval drivers wouldn't have the guts to blast thru Eau Rouge in the rain. Telling an oval driver that's it's OK for the car to twich a bit would be just too much to ask.

It's an apples and oranges type of comparison. They're different disciplines and should remain so.

[Julius]

Sure, why not an oval race. However, because of the lighter design of F1 cars, the oval should also be unique in order to insure safety. For example, take that big 180 degree turn at Sepang that's proceeded and followed by long straights - this is 3/4 of an oval already and can be safely navigated by F1 cars. If a similar 180 degree turn were added, then - viola- an F1 oval course that's safe and practical.

Yes, F1 ovals can most certainly be done in such a way that they are safe and don't blow up engines left and right. However, I don't think many people would like to watch it.

Consequently, if we are to stress ovals, then I suggest considering a 1/2 mile dirt track like we have in the states. Not only would a dirt track keep speeds in a safe realm, but it would also pretty much end the need for controversial slicks and - what's really cool - pretty much negate the downforce effects of the chassis (many have complained that they are tired of all the aero-induced grip). Best of all, it would be incerdibly unique and, for once in a long while, no one would have the slightest idea beforehand who was going to be dominant.

[MuMu]

Originally posted by Flying Panda

1) Whats your point?
2) Where does it say that in any of the FIA documents?

Oh, it probably doesn't say that in any of the FIA documents. I just don't want to see F1 watered down by introducing tracks that only require half the skill of a 'normal' F1 track, ie where you turn both ways (and brake).
I enjoy watching one or two oval races per year, but it's rather boring, and I'd rather see it in a series that I rate lower, like CART.

Max would probably put a few chicanes in it in any case.

[Locai]

A couple of points:

The premise is flawed. Why try to "lure" oval racing fans into F1 with one oval race? If an oval racing fan only likes to see oval racing, then 1 oval race will not make them an F1 fan. If you want to attract the U.S. fans to F1 then attract them to what F1 is (road racing) not what F1 isn't (oval racing).

Wouldn't that be kind of like trying to get U.S. baseball fans into cricket by having 2 of the world's best cricket teams play a baseball game?


Talladega, Daytona, and Fontana make for awful races. The 2+ mile ovals are some of the worst races to watch. The only oval that's 2 miles or longer that makes for good racing is Indy. First of all, the high-banked superspeedways allow speeds that are way too fast for safety or for the fans to even tell what's going on. So, we end up with things like restrictor plates, the screwed up aero rules of NASCAR last year, and the ever popular Hanford Device in CART. They make for boring races. They make the superspeedway races 400-500 miles long, but there's nothing worth watching until the last 20 laps of the races.

It seems to me that there is much more skill involved in the shorter ovals (Richmond, Bristol, Phoenix) than the superspeedways. Darlington is pretty good, too.

Don't even get me started on all the awful cookie-cutter mile-and-a-half ovals.

[MPea3]

Originally posted by MuMu
I just don't want to see F1 watered down by introducing tracks that only require half the skill of a 'normal' F1 track, ie where you turn both ways (and brake).

half the skill? good lord. have you ever raced, and if so, have you ever run an oval?if not, have you ever talked to road racers who HAVE run an oval? read interviews with some of the F1 drivers past and present who tried indy and see what they think. i'm more inclined to take their word for the skill involved than yours.

i know many good road racers who, given the chance to run on an oval, and have apprached it thinking that they'd have no problem. each and every one has found it a humbling experience. if you don't like ovals, so be it, but to make such comments only shows your ignorance.

having said that, i'll add that i don't think F1 should run on ovals, it's too much out of character from the rest of the series, and it raises too many safety concerns. turn 13 at indy, with the wall on the outside, is not a good indication of what it would be like to run a F1 car on an oval because of the higher speed than they'd run without having just come off of the road course. most of the F1 cars shift into their top gear either in the middle of or just coming off of that corner, considerably slower than even the IRL cars run through there. for F1 cars, turn 13 is in essence part of the straightaway, the main goal being to not scrub off speed.

one other thing... while i dislike MS and root against him in every F1 race, at indy last year we sat at the exit of T13 for the 2nd saturday practice, and watched the cars come off of that corner. even with JPM and JV being out there, the one driver who seemed to best understand how to come through 13 and off of the corner with the least loss of speed was MS.

[RiverRunner]

Absolutely no freakin' way should they even think of running an oval,and besides what gives you the idea that F-1 on an oval would draw more US fans?
Heck,the irl is lucky to draw 25K to their races this year.
The premise that an oval only series for Formula cars is desirable to draw US fans has been consistently shown to be as good an idea as building a 40 story building on a foundation of quicksand.
Oval racing in the US is for NASCAR and USAC.
I despair at some of the thoughts on oval racing formula 1 cars by my fellow citizens of the US,I think the mix of about 8 oval races and the rest on SC and RC's by CART is about as much as is feasible,or desirable.

[ehagar]

Isn't there a FIA minimum circuit length anyway?

Kind of a moot point.

[TheDestroyer]

Why God, Why would we want to take F1 cars and run a bullshit CART/IRL race?

[PraetorAAV]

Want to make it interesting for the Americans ? Bring some American teams. Don't lower the quality. Damn', I thought this would be common sense.

Bring American sponsors too !! They'd become interested in the publicity. I suppose this will happen at some point when cigarette commercials will be ditched.

Now that there are three engine suppliers with really big cheap car market share in US (Ford, Honda and Toyota) perhaps we'll see one more race here.

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by ehagar
Isn't there a FIA minimum circuit length anyway?

Kind of a moot point.

I believe there is, but the Indy oval is still larger than Monaco, and only 5 meters shorter than the Indy F1 ring...

[Julius]

If F1 runs ovals, do you think that Ferrari, Jag, Mercedes and BMW will consider NASCAR entries? Man that would be cool. Only bad thing is that not a lot of European drivers have nick-names like "Buckshot", "Shotgun" of "Fireball", but, I'm sure that could be worked around.

No, really, I;m just joking. There's just one oval series that can make it: NASCAR. Basically, F1 is fine as it is. Let's leave it be.

Do ovals take skill? Well...hell yeah they do - but not the same set as road-racing for sure. Basically, it takes no less than a surgeon (this is how Mario and Fittapaldi describe it) to run at a corner at 240 MPH. Also, like Mansell said (paraphrased), ...once I learned that taking an oval corner requires the car to be put in a long slide, then I was o.k." Hey, you got to admit that's pretty intense.

Ovals are o.k. I guess for people have been racing them since the advent of the Chariot (about 2500 years) but I think it's time to move on. I just suggest that many on this board be not so quick to slag oval racers for they have balls and talent too (Mostly balls).

Peace.

[Zmeej]

(Mostly balls)

Great post Julius!