25 replies to this topic

[SpeedyGonzalez]

I have read several posts that MS was squeezed into the kerb, and that this means that JPM did not live him any space. To my bets knowledge, kerbs are part of the track. I am not saying JPM is faultless or that MS is an evil Skeletor... I still haven't seen evidence that prooves that JPM left or did not left enough space. The only thing that I am saying, is that kerbs ARE PART OF THE TRACK. Mr. Ross, if you read this, maybe you can agree or show me wrong from your racing perspective???


keep it dark
Speedy

[George Bailey]

What I think is important here isn't the technical classification of what is and isn't 'track', but whether or not curbs offer the same grip as the normal track surface. If you push a fellow driver onto a surface that you know offers less grip than the track proper (curb, grass) you should not be surprised to find that driver has less control of his car than you or he might like.

To me, "leaving room" doesn't mean 'a space that is the width of a car including the curb', but instead means 'a space that a car will need to compete the turn without making contact with my car.'

I'm not saying JPM had to leave MS more room. I don't get too worked up about "fair" or "gentlemanly" racing, these things sort themselves out over time. All I'm saying is that if JPM fully intended to leave the car beside him enough room to complete turn 1 without contact, then he misjudged the size of the space, or nature of the space he was leaving.

Curbs may count as track, but they don't always drive like track.

[TAB666]

Originally posted by George Bailey
What I think is important here isn't the technical classification of what is and isn't 'track', but whether or not curbs offer the same grip as the normal track surface. If you push a fellow driver onto a surface that you know offers less grip than the track proper (curb, grass) you should not be surprised to find that driver has less control of his car than you or he might like.

To me, "leaving room" doesn't mean 'a space that is the width of a car including the curb', but instead means 'a space that a car will need to compete the turn without making contact with my car.'

I'm not saying JPM had to leave MS more room. I don't get too worked up about "fair" or "gentlemanly" racing, these things sort themselves out over time. All I'm saying is that if JPM fully intended to leave the car beside him enough room to complete turn 1 without contact, then he misjudged the size of the space, or nature of the space he was leaving.

Curbs may count as track, but they don't always drive like track.

Agree to 100 %
PArt of track but not alawys the same amount of grip hence you have to watch what the driver besides you does.

[magic]

when ms directed mh towards the grass in spa '00, the lap prior to the 'zonta', what the f was he doing?

that was at least worth 3 drive-throughs.

[daSilvium]

Originally posted by George Bailey
What I think is important here isn't the technical classification of what is and isn't 'track', but whether or not curbs offer the same grip as the normal track surface. If you push a fellow driver onto a surface that you know offers less grip than the track proper (curb, grass) you should not be surprised to find that driver has less control of his car than you or he might like.

To me, "leaving room" doesn't mean 'a space that is the width of a car including the curb', but instead means 'a space that a car will need to compete the turn without making contact with my car.'

I'm not saying JPM had to leave MS more room. I don't get too worked up about "fair" or "gentlemanly" racing, these things sort themselves out over time. All I'm saying is that if JPM fully intended to leave the car beside him enough room to complete turn 1 without contact, then he misjudged the size of the space, or nature of the space he was leaving.

Curbs may count as track, but they don't always drive like track.

Disagree 99%.

Kerbs in the dry are used all the time with both inside wheels fully on the kerb as this is often the quickest way round the corner, especially in slower corners. Any single-seater driver will confirm that.

Having the inside wheels on the kerb does not generally cause any problem as the weight-distribution is very substantially loaded onto the outside tyres. ie. the outside tyres do almost 100% of the gripping, and that is why it's not that important where the inside tyres are, with regards to the total grip available in the corner.

If the kerb is *vertically* huge though, then you don't want to go near it.

The kerb in question does not look huge at all, and the main reason MS understeered into the centre of the track is because his speed was too high for the line he was on, not because his inside wheels were on the kerb.

[SpeedyGonzalez]

Originally posted by George Bailey


To me, "leaving room" doesn't mean 'a space that is the width of a car including the curb', but instead means 'a space that a car will need to compete the turn without making contact with my car.'



Curbs may count as track, but they don't always drive like track.

Your first reply is quite interesting. Nevertheless, if you don't make him eat the grass, you are technically not leaving him without space, even if this means that you are betting on the offchance that the other drive either will back off, or control his car under the circumstances. It is a risky move, yes, but totally fair IMO.

[George Bailey]

Originally posted by SpeedyGonzalez
Your first reply is quite interesting. Nevertheless, if you don't make him eat the grass, you are technically not leaving him without space, even if this means that you are betting on the offchance that the other drive either will back off, or control his car under the circumstances. It is a risky move, yes, but totally fair IMO.

I agree, risky, but fair. I would not have given JPM a penalty.

I think he was given the penalty because he had the room to give, but chose not to give it. I think the Stewards chose JPM to make an example - like the pit lane line penalty given to Ralf last year. Hopefully we won't see another penalty like this one any time soon.

Let the drivers race.


magic,

nor was jpm given a penalty for pushing ms towards the grass last year in brazil. the fia/stewards have no memory.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by George Bailey
magic,

nor was jpm given a penalty for pushing ms towards the grass last year in brazil. the fia/stewards have no memory.

MS, however, was penalized for forcing HH-F off the track as he exited the pits at the '98 British GP - the infamous race were MS came in for his stop-go penalty on the last lap and crossed the finish line on his way to the pits.

[MrAerodynamicist]

er, he pushed Frentzen off in Canada, the british race problem was something to do with passing under yellow.

[andviv]

a simple question:

If the kerb is NOT part of the track, then why all drivers use it to take slower corners?

IMHO MS had enough room, he just lost his break point and then couldn't keep the car in the race line.

[Groom]

Has anybody posted a link to a video covering the whole event??? There are so many threads on this topic and I haven't really gone through all of them and I still haven't seen the complete pass.

[pgoricha]

George Bailey: What I think is important here isn't the technical classification of what is and isn't 'track', but whether or not curbs offer the same grip as the normal track surface. If you push a fellow driver onto a surface that you know offers less grip than the track proper (curb, grass) you should not be surprised to find that driver has less control of his car than you or he might like.

I couldn't agree more!

daSilvium: The kerb in question does not look huge at all, and the main reason MS understeered into the centre of the track is because his speed was too high for the line he was on, not because his inside wheels were on the kerb.

Turn 1 at Sepang is a long radius corner and all the drivers through the weekend used the inside kerb very little thoughout the weekend. Also, when they did use it, it was much futher on in the corner. MS didn't intend to use the kerb so early into the corner and so carried a lot of speed, JPM however continued to sqeeze MS knowing that either MS would have back off or they would collide.

The fact that JPM put himself into a situation where it was in Michael's hands whether or not he would make it though safely shows he is willing to do everything he can to beat MS and that he has balls. MS similarly is trying to get on top of JMP physchologically to give him an advantage in tight situations, just like he did in varying degrees with MH, DC, JV, Hill...etc.

Both could have avoided to accident, and both had the right to do what they did.

[Williams]

I don't think it's necessarily the case that JPM was trying to intimidate or squeeze Michael over. He was simply trying to overtake Micheal on the outside. To do this he needs to be faster than Michael to get around, since he has to travel further. To do this he needed to use maximum track, which meant getting as close to Michael, as possible in order to avoid running out of room at the corner exit. A fine distinction I know, but as an important one if we are interested in Jaun's intentions in this incident.

[Jhope]

Overtake? Juan was first into the corner, therefore he had right of way, and IMO, he didn't have to leave Michale any room at all.

[lateralforce]

Originally posted by daSilvium



Disagree 99%.

Kerbs in the dry are used all the time with both inside wheels fully on the kerb as this is often the quickest way round the corner, especially in slower corners. Any single-seater driver will confirm that.

Having the inside wheels on the kerb does not generally cause any problem as the weight-distribution is very substantially loaded onto the outside tyres. ie. the outside tyres do almost 100% of the gripping, and that is why it's not that important where the inside tyres are, with regards to the total grip available in the corner.

If the kerb is *vertically* huge though, then you don't want to go near it.

The kerb in question does not look huge at all, and the main reason MS understeered into the centre of the track is because his speed was too high for the line he was on, not because his inside wheels were on the kerb.

Disagree 100%

Well if you look deeper into tire mechanics, you will find out that as a pair of tire experiences lateral load transfer, the average lateral force generated actually is less than what you may expect. In other words, as normal load increases, lateral force generation will drop as it doesn't really increase linearly.

The fact that MS' right wheel was riding on the curb (which is a bit elevated from the trac) increases it's lateral load transfer to his outside tire and loaded it more so much so that the lateral force generation came to a plateu (saturates) and couldn't generate more force to prevent the car from understeering.

So it does make a lot of difference regarding how far in a driver hugs the kerb. Too far outside and you lost the opportunity for the best line, and too far in you increase the lateral load transfer to the point of reaching your tire's limit too soon and understeering earlier.

Had MS been a little more on the track he would have had utilized his friction limit much more better and as a result maintain a close gap next to Montoya.

[daSilvium]

Originally posted by lateralforce


Disagree 100%

Well if you look deeper into tire mechanics, you will find out that as a pair of tire experiences lateral load transfer, the average lateral force generated actually is less than what you may expect. In other words, as normal load increases, lateral force generation will drop as it doesn't really increase linearly.

The fact that MS' right wheel was riding on the curb (which is a bit elevated from the trac) increases it's lateral load transfer to his outside tire and loaded it more so much so that the lateral force generation came to a plateu (saturates) and couldn't generate more force to prevent the car from understeering.

So it does make a lot of difference regarding how far in a driver hugs the kerb. Too far outside and you lost the opportunity for the best line, and too far in you increase the lateral load transfer to the point of reaching your tire's limit too soon and understeering earlier.

Had MS been a little more on the track he would have had utilized his friction limit much more better and as a result maintain a close gap next to Montoya.

Quote : "In other words, as normal load increases, lateral force generation will drop as it doesn't really increase linearly".
Lateral force may not increase *linearly* but it WILL increase with more load (weight transfer). Increased vertical loading will result in increased lateral grip. This is how downforce makes cars go round corners quicker...

Look at almost any shot of a single-seater going round realtively tight corners and they will almost always use the kerb (sometimes hugely) depending on how nasty the kerb is. It's the quickest way. Get an F1 car to drive a circuit with strict instructions to the driver to not touch ANY kerb, and then let him do it "his way". (ie. he will likely use kerbs in some of the slow corners) and the 2nd way will be quicker.

We can go on forever about vehicle dynamics, loadings etc. (which is a complex subject), but i maintain that the reason for MS understeering is too high a corner entry speed for the line that he took through the corner (forced by JPM). Michael simply made the error of judgment as to how fast he could enter the corner with low tyre-temperature *on the enforced line*. The line that he was forced to take may not have been the ideal line at all (this of course was JPM's intention to try to make MS break a little earlier) but a driver needs to match his corner-entry speed to the line he is taking.
Michael entered corner too quick and understeered strongly into JPM, pushing JPM very wide.

Michael's error.

Button says so, DC says so, almost every independent report i've read says so....

[palmas]

Well, track is a part of the track also, but if you are in front of someone and brake without a reason, or if you are in the only line for a driver to make the corner with the speed he is carrying, then **** happens. If you dont get hit, you always have space enough. It is only a pity you need space to brake or the line to make the curve!

He could also have the space RS found in Australia, vertical space.

[daSilvium]

Originally posted by daSilvium



Look at almost any shot of a single-seater going round realtively tight corners and they will almost always use the kerb (sometimes hugely) depending on how nasty the kerb is. It's the quickest way

To further illustrate this point take a look at these pictures from 2001 season.
Randomly picked

http://www.dailyf1.c...unday/pic16.jpg

http://www.dailyf1.c...unday/pic44.jpg

http://www.dailyf1.c...unday/pic56.jpg

http://www.dailyf1.c...unday/pic29.jpg

http://www.dailyf1.c...unday/pic44.jpg

http://www.dailyf1.c...unday/pic14.jpg

[daSilvium]

and just 2 more of classic 1991 shots of Berger in the McLaren, using those kerbs ........

http://www.dailyf1.c...1991/berger.jpg


(bit extreme this one Gerhard ....)
http://www.dailyf1.c...1990/berger.jpg

:-)

[Beamer]

Originally posted by Jhope
Overtake? Juan was first into the corner, therefore he had right of way, and IMO, he didn't have to leave Michale any room at all.

Couldn't agree more. I studies the video a couple of times, and allthough the coverage isn't really good, to me it looks like JPM is more than half a car lenght in front of MS and at a quicker pace when steering in. MS should have backed of.

But he just doesn't brake enough, and you can even see JPM opening up a bit a second or two later, but MS still doesn't slow down. My guess is that MS noticed JPM opening up a bit and thought to himself 'You see, he's backing off' and therefore keeps going at a too high pace. So if JPM did make any mistake, which he didn't IMHO, it's giving MS the impression he was going to let him through.

[Kiama]

Only 1 problem with all those pictures. They are all exits from chicanes, not constant radius corners where the car is turning on the limit for a few continuous seconds. :

[stevew]

Overall, I like what JPM did, though. Right or wrong, he isn't backing down from MS.

MS put the "chop" on him at the start, and it is if JPM said "**** you Schumacher, I'm coming through... make your own arrangements".

It's gonna be an interesting season...

[benrapp]

Generally you don't use much of the kerb in a long corner. You aim to "kiss" the apex (the point where your line of travel comes closest to the inside arc of the corner) while keeping all four wheels on the tarmac. This is because in a long radius corner all four tyres are contributing substantially to lateral grip and the most important thing is balance and stability. In a short radius corner the loading on the chassis is different and the inside tyres contribute very little; indeed if you look at cornering photographs of touring cars or other racers with high mechanical to aerodynamic grip ratios either the front or both inside tyres may be in the air in a short radius corner. In this circumstance it may be faster take as much of the kerb as the car can manage in order to flatten the arc of the corner; the inside wheels, being unloaded, will ride the kerb without affecting the balance of the car.

However it is not permitted to place the outside wheels inside the white line that marks the edge of the track, as this constitutes cutting the corner, and would be no different in regulation terms to driving straight across the grass. The usual advantage rules would apply, and it's not often enforced in lower formulae, but it's the sort of thing I can imagine Ron Dennis protesting.

In a drivers' briefing at Oulton Park last year I remember being told very pointedly that there would be observers at the chicanes watching out for cars taking too much kerb, and that any offenders would be penalised.

[lateralforce]

Originally posted by daSilvium



Quote : "In other words, as normal load increases, lateral force generation will drop as it doesn't really increase linearly".
Lateral force may not increase *linearly* but it WILL increase with more load (weight transfer). Increased vertical loading will result in increased lateral grip. This is how downforce makes cars go round corners quicker...

Well don't forget the *SUM* of forces per axle. True the outer tire gets more load as a vehicle steers into a corner but the inner tire lost the same amount of load, hence the term 'lateral load transfer'.

I still maintain that due to one tire riding deep on the curb, tilting the vehicle more and inducing more lateral load transfer; coupled with lesser coefficient of friction, given the same aero loadings, the *TOTAL* lateral force produced per axle is less than if the tires were on the tarmac...

[The RedBaron]

Why all the fuss now? In Brazil 01 Montoya put a similar type move on Schuey which resulted in the latter being pushed onto the grass....is that part of the track too?? On that occasion MS gave way, maybe Montoya believed he could do the same again at Sepang.
In Austria 01, god knows what Montoya was trying to do, but he was prepared to sacrifice his own race just to prove a point to Schuey.

if you don't believe that, then read Montoya latest interview.


Montoya bullish over duel

Despite his drive through penalty in Malaysia on Sunday, Juan Pablo Montoya followed team-mate Ralf Schumacher to record a historic one-two result for the BMW Williams team and to move the team clear at the head of the constructors' championship battle. Speaking after his second successive runner up position, Montoya was bullish about his chances for the remainder of the season and admitted that he relishes the challenge of passing Michael Schumacher.

"I love to fight and most of all against Michael," admitted Montoya who has passed the German five-times in his short career to date. "I'm paid for speeding and not for braking. As Michael came to Formula One, he shook at the throne of Senna, so now I'm shaking at his."
Certainly Montoya has impressed greatly during his time with BMW Williams and is much admired within the team. Speaking of the Montoya / Michael Schumacher battle, former Grand Prix star Hans Stuck said that he is impressed by the fairness of this duel. "Both Juan Pablo and Michael had shining eyes during their eye-to-eye conversation after the race," said Stuck. "They are both looking forward to another fight."



Contrary to what JPM worshippers believe...it's all about Michael, Michael and more Michael.
He is obsessed about him and is gunning for him that is very evident. The main beneficiary all of this might be Ralf.

[Red Horse]

SpeedyGonzalez... I agree 100%
Who knows